Cutting a barrel off question

[labradigger1]

I recently bought a RRB no. 2 rifle chambered in 25-20 single shot. While shooting it the other day for the first time the third shot keyholed completely sideways through the paper at 25 yds. I ran a tight patch through the barrel from the breach and I have a loose spot from 1" to 3" back from the muzzle. Apparently sometime in the past it had a squib load followed by a live load and bulged the barrel inside.
From what I read these rifles came with a 26 or 28" barrel. Mine has the 28" with a period Lyman beach sight.
The rifling in the barrel is perfect except for the "loose" spot.
My questions are,
#1- Do I need to cut all three inches off to get back to the proper bore diameter or could I just cut 2" off and re crown? If I could get away with only 2" I could keep a factory length barrel.
I have concerns of blow by if I don't cut all the bulge out.
#2- would I be better off to install a liner and re chamber to keep the factory barrel length.
The rifle is unaltered with the exception of a very old varnish on the stock and the buttstock has been drilled and filled with lead to balance out the gun and it cracked the butt along one of the lead filled cylinders.
I am looking for a shooter and this will be my small caliber reloadable walk around rifle.
I have the rifle dissasembled and ready to install in the lathe and awaiting your knowledge and experience.
Thanks,
Lab

[pietro]

.

The entire loose area needs to be disappeared.

Since you only want a shooter, I'd shorten the barrel to do so, in a New York Minute.

Matching an original/factory bbl length wouldn't even be considered - although YMMV.


.

[Greg S]

Since you already apparently have brass and dies for 25-20 SS, I'd try to salvage the barrel. A friend has an 1886 and was talking of dumping it and looked into reloading for it.

What was the alloy and bullet you were running? I take it that you have slugged the breach. Does it consistantly throw shots? Need more data.

[John Taylor]

It comes down to how much money you want to spend and how bad you want it to look original. I make a living fixing barrel so my first thought would be to reline it and keep the original length. The least expensive way would be to counter bore the barrel and see how it shoots. The liner for a 25-20 is 7/16" so use a drill one size smaller. I prefer long barrels myself but I do get a lot of customers that want a barrel shortened for various reasons. Another thought would be to make a new barrel for a shooter and set the old one aside so the gun can be put back to original. The new barrel could be made in the more popular 25-20 Winchester to save money on brass.

[labradigger1]

Since you already apparently have brass and dies for 25-20 SS, I'd try to salvage the barrel. A friend has an 1886 and was talking of dumping it and looked into reloading for it.

What was the alloy and bullet you were running? I take it that you have slugged the breach. Does it consistantly throw shots? Need more data.

Bullets are cast from an old ideal combo tool with 20:1 alloy, sized to .258 and lubed with bens red. Powder is 4227 at 7.9 grains. Dies are new ch4d 2 die set.
As for throwing shots, I have only fired it maybe a dozen times with different weight powders and anything over 8 grains is showing signs of pressure.

[labradigger1]

It comes down to how much money you want to spend and how bad you want it to look original. I make a living fixing barrel so my first thought would be to reline it and keep the original length. The least expensive way would be to counter bore the barrel and see how it shoots. The liner for a 25-20 is 7/16" so use a drill one size smaller. I prefer long barrels myself but I do get a lot of customers that want a barrel shortened for various reasons. Another thought would be to make a new barrel for a shooter and set the old one aside so the gun can be put back to original. The new barrel could be made in the more popular 25-20 Winchester to save money on brass.
I definitely prefer a long and muzzle heavy rifle.
I did consider cutting only two inches off and counter boring but not sure of the process involved in that.
Would I be correct to assume that as long as the bullet leaves the muzzle with equal gas pressure around the base of the boolit that it will fly straight?

[labradigger1]

Here is a pic

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I recently bought a RRB no. 2 rifle chambered in 25-20 single shot. While shooting it the other day for the first time the third shot keyholed completely sideways through the paper at 25 yds. I ran a tight patch through the barrel from the breach and I have a loose spot from 1" to 3" back from the muzzle. Apparently sometime in the past it had a squib load followed by a live load and bulged the barrel inside.
From what I read these rifles came with a 26 or 28" barrel. Mine has the 28" with a period Lyman beach sight.
The rifling in the barrel is perfect except for the "loose" spot.
My questions are,
#1- Do I need to cut all three inches off to get back to the proper bore diameter or could I just cut 2" off and re crown? If I could get away with only 2" I could keep a factory length barrel.
I have concerns of blow by if I don't cut all the bulge out.
#2- would I be better off to install a liner and re chamber to keep the factory barrel length.
The rifle is unaltered with the exception of a very old varnish on the stock and the buttstock has been drilled and filled with lead to balance out the gun and it cracked the butt along one of the lead filled cylinders.
I am looking for a shooter and this will be my small caliber reloadable walk around rifle.
I have the rifle dissasembled and ready to install in the lathe and awaiting your knowledge and experience.
Thanks,
Lab


I agree that you would most likely have to remove all of the bulged area to get good accuracy. It probably depends on the size of the bulge. But if I was resolved on shortening, I would take off that 2in, first, and see if that makes enough of a difference. It may not, for people do sometimes find that a bulge doesn't harm accuracy much. So half a bulge may harm it less. I am sorry if this seems a bit vague, but that is the degree of exactitude these things operate on.

Personally I wouldn't worry about trying to stay within a factory length, unless I wanted to fool someone with it. There is no practical disadvantage to a 25in. barrel. But even better I think is relining the barrel at its present length. TJ's full range of barrel liners are shown on www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) , and while you can easily find a gunsmith to do it, it isn't beyond the powers of the amateur. Well, there's me...

[bob208]

I would do some more shooting. I have a old Brno .22 that has two bulges in the barrel. one in front of the chamber one at the end of the forearm. it will still shot 1 inch at a 100 yards.

[jcren]

As mentioned above, counter boring to the damage is a common fix for vintage military rifles with muzzles damaged by rough cleaning. In most cases, this practice will give serviceable accuracy, if not as precise as a clean crown job, without visibly altering the gun. This is where I would start as if it doesn't give the desired accuracy you can still pursue the other options.

[John Taylor]

I definitely prefer a long and muzzle heavy rifle.
I did consider cutting only two inches off and counter boring but not sure of the process involved in that.
Would I be correct to assume that as long as the bullet leaves the muzzle with equal gas pressure around the base of the boolit that it will fly straight?

When it comes to muzzle crowns, never assume anything, it's trial and error a lot of the time. A good clean cut crown is a good place to start. I had one in a while back that was shooting 8" to the right at 25 yards and several gunsmiths had looked at it and could not detect anything wrong with the bore or crown. A bore scope showed the sights lined up with the bore and the crown looked good under a magnifying glass. I put a liner in the barrel and it shot where the sight were pointed. On a counter bore it is best to use one with a pilot but I have also seen it done with just a drill bit in a lathe.

[bgmkithaca]

When it comes to muzzle crowns, never assume anything, it's trial and error a lot of the time. A good clean cut crown is a good place to start. I had one in a while back that was shooting 8" to the right at 25 yards and several gunsmiths had looked at it and could not detect anything wrong with the bore or crown. A bore scope showed the sights lined up with the bore and the crown looked good under a magnifying glass. I put a liner in the barrel and it shot where the sight were pointed. On a counter bore it is best to use one with a pilot but I have also seen it done with just a drill bit in a lathe.

The term counterboring is a new term to me for barrel work- what exactly is it.

[Blackwater]

John Taylor has summed up your real and best options very, very well. The only question, as he said, is how much you want and can spend on it. With regard to that part, it's your decision to make of course, and all I'll note is that many who have opted to "just do something" have later regretted their choice. They aren't making those old guns any more, and won't ever be, so they just keep getting more valuable and interesting each and every year that passes, because so many either trash them thinking them to be "worn out," or modify them in a way they can never be put back as original. Since John has done so much of this, I think I'd rely on him for the best advice, and start saving my pennies if it's a little spendy right now. Patience really IS a virtue, ya' know?

[labradigger1]

With rifles I agree, never assume anything.


When it comes to muzzle crowns, never assume anything,



I had a friend that passed several years ago that built flintlocks that would make you weak in the knees. He had a 5th grade education before going to work in the mines and to look at him you wouldn't think he could have tied his shoes. He had an exceptional talent of building rock locks.
If the rifle wouldn't shoot where it was supposed to he would slightly cant the crown and get it where it needed to be. He was a fine family man and will be missed.
Thank you for your response as it made me remember him.


it's trial and error a lot of the time. A good clean cut crown is a good place to start. I had one in a while back that was shooting 8" to the right at 25 yards and several gunsmiths had looked at it and could not detect anything wrong with the bore or crown. A bore scope showed the sights lined up with the bore and the crown looked good under a magnifying glass. I put a liner in the barrel and it shot where the sight were pointed. On a counter bore it is best to use one with a pilot but I have also seen it done with just a drill bit in a lathe.

[bgmkithaca]

After thinking about counterboring for a bit I believe that I have answered my own question. If I am correct it involves using a slightly oversize reamer to ream out a portion of the muzzle to clear the offending portion of the barrel. I have a muzzle loader that has this feature for starting bullets straight going into the muzzle. As near as I can tell it has no effect on accuracy.

[labradigger1]

John Taylor has summed up your real and best options very, very well. The only question, as he said, is how much you want and can spend on it. With regard to that part, it's your decision to make of course, and all I'll note is that many who have opted to "just do something" have later regretted their choice. They aren't making those old guns any more, and won't ever be, so they just keep getting more valuable and interesting each and every year that passes, because so many either trash them thinking them to be "worn out," or modify them in a way they can never be put back as original. Since John has done so much of this, I think I'd rely on him for the best advice, and start saving my pennies if it's a little spendy right now. Patience really IS a virtue, ya' know?
Patience I certainly have. This is why I started this thread. You can't un-ring the bell so to speak.
Thus far I am leaning towards cutting off 2" or a barrel liner, perhaps a new Douglas barrel chambered in the same 25-20 ss. I see reamer rentals has it available. ER SHAW is about 2 hours from me but I'm not sure they have octagonal blanks.
As mentioned above I could re barrel and save the original.
Thank you all for the replies thus far.
Lab

[labradigger1]

After thinking on this for a week I decided to cut off 2" and see where I was.
2" was not enough so I cut off another, faced it and re crowned it, filed in a new dovetail, cleaned and touched up the muzzle crown with gel cold blue. I just finished putting it all back together and I am satisfied with the results as long as she shoots straight.
Rifle certainly looks different 3" shorter and the lead filled stock is heavier than I would like. I prefer a muzzle heavy rifle for off hand shots so now I've got to figure out how to remove the molten lead (drill maybe?).
Thank you all for the suggestions. I will post results at the range soon.
Lab

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Weighting the stock with lead seems an odd thing to do with a rifle which had a 24in. barrel. Possibly you are dealing with a rifle which once had a much longer barrel, and its loss of virginity is no concern of yours.


Your question is difficult to answer without seeing how the lead is inserted and fixed there. and how much wood separates it from the outside. Most likely it is in round holes. I would drill it and insert the largest wood screw I could get, to heave on with pliers or a claw-hammer. It may not be glued at all, but if it was done a long time ago it might be done with a simple animal glue or if you are really lucky wax. So next I would drill it for a larger metal rod, copper if you have it, and heat the bit that sticks out until the lead gets really hot. I wouldn't try to melt the lead, only the glue.

If that doesn't work, and if there is enough wood around it, I would cut not into the lead but into the wood around it with a rotary holesaw. If you are lucky (second use of the phrase, but that is the way it is), the lead may be no deeper than the holesaw will reach. But even if it doesn't, that should improve the chances of ungluing it. As a last resort I would drill the lead to its full diameter with carpenter's brace and Forster wood bit. The pilot hole should much reduce the time and effort needed. Large diameter drilling in lead with a power drill would require a really large and powerful one, and it would be difficult to hold the stock tight enough without damage.

Finally when it is out I would plug the hole to reduce the chances of cracking. For this I would use a soft pine rod, ringed with grooves till it is mostly groove, to reduce the chances of the stock cracking as it contracts or the rod expands.

[Mk42gunner]

A #2 rolling block stock is a pretty thin piece of wood to be trying anything heavy handed on. I think I would try to drill out the lead by going real slow and checking angles and depth often.

A 25" barrel shouldn't be that bad; mine in .32 RF has the 26", so yours will probably only be noticed if next to another #2. I remember reading somewhere that Remington did offer 24" barrels on the ones in .22 caliber; true or not, I can't say.

Robert

[ndnchf]

Just the other day I saw an original #2 buttstock for sale on either GB or ebay. You might want to check it out.

[labradigger1]

Just the other day I saw an original #2 buttstock for sale on either GB or ebay. You might want to check it out.
Thank you, I've been watching it on eBay. Seller notes the tang area have been sanded to much.