Calling all 44 magnum reloaders . . . help appreciated

[blue360cuda]

Hey everyone, I’d appreciate a helping hand from those who know more about reloading the 44 mag. It’s been giving me a hard time trying to work up a load my 7 ½ Blackhawk Hunter likes. It seems everything so far just shoots so-so, around 3-5 in at 50 yards. I’m shooting off a rest with 2X20 leupold scope. I’ve tried resting the barrel, just the grip frame and only my elbows with similar results so I don’t think its my technique causing the issues.

So far I’ve worked up loads using 240 SWC, 310 oregon trail boolits, 260g cast performance and shot a few boxes of factory cast Remington, federal and Winchester. Best group to date is with 22g IM4227 and 240g cast SWC, 5 shots into 1 3/4”. I have gotten the 310 Oregon Trail boolits with 19.0 of IMR4227 4 shots into 1 ¼ with a 5th shot opening to just under 3”.

Many of the groups I’m shooting have pretty bad vertical stringing to them. I’ve been careful to not let the butt of the pistol touch anything and use a good firm grip each shot. I’m not sure whats going on. I’ll typically get around 1 -2“ horizontal with 4-6” vertical spread. I’d just really like to find a load that can consistently keep all 6 shots into 2” at 50 yards and would like to keep it under 5” at 100yds which I don’t feel is very unreasonable for this pistol.

My end goal would be either one good all around load for hunting deer out to 100 yds, ideally 4” groups or better. Other option would be a heavy boolit for iron sight shooting within 50 yds and something lighter to use with the scope out to 100-125yds. One issue is that part of my hunting will be in Wyoming this winter where it can get to -20 or colder so I was concerned about H110 for that. Also concerned about not using magnum primers. I was told by 44man that the Fed 150’s are the way to go but reliability and the cold have me wondering whats my best option. Since it's rarely below 20F here in Michigan during hunting season I could do a "cold weather" heavy load and another "not so cold" load for here.

I picked up a few reloading goodies this weekend at local cabellas. This brings my powder on hand to H110, IMR 4227, Unique, Vihtavuori N350 and 2400. Also picked up more CCI 350s and a brick of Fed 150 match LP primers. I’m looking to buy some more of the Oregon Trail 310s and maybe a few other boolits to try as well. Using Hornady dimension dies, have Lyman M-die, Forester Co-Ax press and using Starline brass.

Any tips/advice for getting something more consistent going? The ammo I loaded for my 8mm mauser with 4064 and barnes 200g TSX can do ½ MOA every day so I’m somewhat confident in my reloading abilities, just feel like I’m missing something with this 44 business. Pistol is constriction-free, 0.4305 bore and all 6 cylinders pin gauge to 0.431

If you’re still with me after this long-winded post I thank you!


240g SWC 0.431 22.0 IMR 4227 CCI350 50 yds bench w/ scope
148793
310g Oregon Trial 0.430 19.0 IMR 4227 CCI350 50 yds bench w/ scope
148794

[ilikec2]

Have you tried seating the bullet on the powder? If you have a load that you like in terms of projectile weight, velocity and recoil then put cream of wheat on top the powder to take up the empty space. They can help to give you a more even and consistent powder burn. Note, this is not load.

[kungfustyle]

How are your groups at 25 yards? I would be happy with 3" groups at 50 yards. I've used Unique and 4227 with powder coated Lyman 429421. My leads weight out at 265g w/ ww and tin. Try bringing up the barrel and slowly lower it to uniform powder to see if that makes a difference. I have the same set up with my Blackhawk and Leupold scope. I'm good out to 75 yards with out scope adjustment but drop about 4" at 100.

[Deep Six]

What lube are you using? That was the final hump in my quest for consistent sub 3" 50 yard groups for a cylinder full out of my redhawk. All lubes are not equal. I ended up using Ben's Red cause it does what I want and is easy to make.

[Blackwater]

If your stringing is mostly vertical, I'd bet money it's just your grip varying. In a gun, and particularly a single action that is designed to "roll" in the hands in recoil, a good, firm AND CONSISTENT grip is very necessary to get really good groups. Even a light grip IF it's consistent, CAN make for some small groups, but the firmer grip minimizes the variables by letting the gun move less, due to the increased pressure.

You know how a good, firm handshake feels? That's about the right pressure for a handgun grip. Get the grip TOO tight and you start to induce tremors, and your ability to make subsequent equally firm gripped shots tends to go to pot. Try as firm a grip as you can sustain over a course of about 10 shots or so.

Whenever I got out of practice with my Super B, I'd load up about 300 rds. and go shoot them all in a single day. That generally got me back in the swing of things, and really helped prep me for any special events I anticipated. Doing the shooting at longer ranges, like @ 200 yds., really makes you focus, and that's a good part of practice as well.

Whatever the cause, and it could be other things, I hope you find it and get it all worked out.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i settled on this mold http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-250J-D.png and 2400 & bluedot for powder
but the biggest thing that helped me was a trigger job i had a goal of hitting my 10" gong at 100 yards i can do it now

[dubber123]

Pretty sure Blackwater nailed it with the grip suggestion. A consistent grip is super important to handgun group shooting, and very hard to master and maintain.

Other things I would mention are the possibility of a choke point at the frame, and what is the trigger like? Lapping out a bore choke has taken from 3/4" to over 3" off 50 yd. groups for me. The as delivered Ruger trigger usually leaves a lot to be desired as well. They are very easy to work on, I set mine to around 2 pounds. This is done with factory springs. I would suggest you don't fall for the lighter mainsprings they sell. The hammer fall on a Ruger S/A is painfully slow as it is, the softer mainsprings they sell makes it worse. Good luck.

[BigAl52]

Do your bullets pass thru the cylinder throats with out resizing them. Take a bullet and see if it will fit thru the cylinder throat without reforming it. If it won't pass thru you need to get a hold of Doug Guy and have him ream out the cylinder. If not I have had real good luck with 10 grains of unique and a 250gr SWC keith style bullet. Al

[blue360cuda]

All 6 of the cylinders are .431 per my pin gauge and my .431 SWC pass through with just a slight push of a finger. I firelapped the barrel per the Beartooth tech manual using 280, 330 and 400 grit clover compound. When I started there was just about 0.002 of constriction from thread choke, now it is cleared out. I slugged the barrel to measure and also used pin gauges, at the start a 0.416 would just start in the muzzle and now a 0.417 slips easily from muzzle to breech.

The trigger isn't bad. At first it was very creepy so I took it apart and knocked off the burs with a stone and polished everything with fine compound, also put in a 30 in pound spring in the hammer, stock main spring though for reliability. Eventually Ill take it in for a better trigger job since there is still some creep but its much better. Scope rings are lapped and perfectly aligned.

Only other thing I was going to do now was get some new grips. From what I've read the Pachy "presentation" grips for a new model SBH will fit this Hunter model, no it's not a bisley.

Going to load up some of the 240 SWC tomorrow to start, think I'll try 2400 since this is the first I've gotten ahold of. How does it work in cold weather?

I'm currently not casting my own yet, already invested a bit of $$$ in this whole reloading set up and just plan to buy my boolits for now . . . plus free time is tight as it is, just enough to load and shoot.

Kungfu- 25yd groups are around 2", some better, some worse.

[DougGuy]

That 50yd group is NOTHING to sneeze at. I don't see where you have room to complain about that one at all really. I sure wouldn't.

How does the forcing cone look on that revolver? You have firelapped it, but you may improve groups by renting the 11° cutter kit from 4D rentals and doing it yourself. Generally there are 3 things necessary to get the Ruger SA to shoot good, first would be the cylinder throats, second would be the forcing cone, third would be swapping in a Wolff 30oz trigger spring that you can get from Brownell's. What this spring will do is allow you to dry fire the gun, in practice fire, and hold the sights motionless. << This is pretty much mandatory to shoot a single action and shoot it well, the Wolff spring won't take any of the creep out of the Ruger, but it will make it very manageable and make it quite easy to dry fire and hold the sights still. Taking the optics off and getting the gun where you can do this will do more to improve your groups than any other single thing you can do. You can put the optics back on, but if you can't hold the sights perfectly motionless without the optics, then the optics are masking over one of your elementary problems. Try it with the factory spring, then try it with the Wolff spring. Night and day difference.

The next thing would be to weigh every charge when loading. I do. I weigh each charge when I am developing a load because I want to lessen the variable there and make sure each case has the same amount of powder. You could even weigh each boolit and only load boolits within a few tenths of the median weight. Any of these things will lessen variables and add consistency to the pressure, and velocity. << Both of these, dramatically affect POI on the target from shot to shot. Inconsistencies in pressure make inconsistencies in recoil, which causes boolit strikes at different points of impact, because the gun recoils differently in the hands.

Right now you are not after something big and blatantly easy to see, or you wouldn't have that 50yd group, you are looking for splinters and toothpics. Small details. Stuff that most people wouldn't think matters but it does. Not quite splitting hairs, but not far from it. Changing grips will definitely change your groups, it is either going to like the new ones or not like them, you will know soon enough.

Sooner or later you might want to get a chrony. Vertical stringing can often be seen in the chrony recordings, faster loads leave the barrel before the barrel has a chance to flip skyward in recoil as much as it does with a slower load. The faster load will hit the target at a lower POI than a slower load.

[Lefty Red]

If your groups are consistant, I would look into getting a red dot or different scope. I had a Leupold M8 2x20 on a pistol and I really didn't like it. Too much shaking. Other brands had way too thick cross hairs to cover too much of the target. I had an Ultra Dot on a Ruger Red Hawk Hunter that I didn't shoot all the good. Its a 4MOA. I got decent groups at 50 and 25 yards. 75 was bareble, and I didn't waste my ammo out to 100 with it. Now my cheaper CVA Scout and Millet 3MOA red dot will group <3" at 100 yards all day long! I switched the Ultra for a Millet and my groups got much smaller. But I just couldn't shot the Red Hawk and trade it for a SBH Hunter.
I also found out that the type of target I shot at affected my groups. With 4MOA Ultra Dot, I had to get a 6" colored paper plate and center the dot in it. I got great groups! The aim small, miss small theory doesn't work when you can't aim at the same spot every time. Now the Millet 3MOA scope will give me small groups on a 3"x3" posty note paper because I can center it on the block of paper at 100 yards.

Vertical stringing is most likey from you changing your grip, or grip pressure, or pressure on the barrel. Something is changing from shot to shot that is affecting the way the SBH is recoiling up. You will also notice a different POI for bench shooting to to when you freehand it. I had allot of 1" wide by 5" tall groups with my Red Hawk. I just couldn't get a consistant grip on it. The SBH just fits me better I guess.

I use allot of IMR4227. I like it. 2400 is my favorite powder for the 44, though.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

Any grip for a square trigger guard SBH will fit the rounded trigger guard SBH Hunter. i have the Pachs on mine. I would like a slightly oversized smooth wooden grips to allow the roll better.

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

AS for 310gr bullets, I'm shooting 16.5 grains of 2400 (Lyman shows a max load of 16.6) with the Lee 310RF that was TLed, dipped, and them TLed and sized to .430". Out of Lyman's 4" universal receiver, they say its getting just under 1100 fps. I don't doubt it and think we should get around 1125-1150 fps out of our 7.5" SBHs. I truely don't need or desire any more recoil than that.

In a lighter bullet, 18 grs of 2400 under my RCBS 44-250-K that is lubed like the Lee 310RF is very accurate.

Jerry

[dhom]

AS for 310gr bullets, I'm shooting 16.5 grains of 2400 (Lyman shows a max load of 16.6) with the Lee 310RF that was TLed, dipped, and them TLed and sized to .430". Out of Lyman's 4" universal receiver, they say its getting just under 1100 fps. I don't doubt it and think we should get around 1125-1150 fps out of our 7.5" SBHs. I truely don't need or desire any more recoil than that.

In a lighter bullet, 18 grs of 2400 under my RCBS 44-250-K that is lubed like the Lee 310RF is very accurate.

Jerry

I believe your grip might be the problem. Try gripping the revolver where you are comfortable and keep the same grip possibly by thumbing the hammer with your non shooting hand. Don't let go of your initial grip. Shooting small groups at 100 yds takes a lot of concentration.

[dubber123]

Per your question, 2400 has worked very well for me in cold weather without the need of a mag primer. I believe my charge was 20.5 grains of 2400 with a 429421 swc. Velocity from my 4" was over 1,300 fps., and accuracy was excellent.

I had another thought, have you checked your scope for parallax at 50 yds.? I have seen good quality rifle scopes with a ton of parallax. If you have much at all, forget group shooting. Each time your eye to scope relationship changes, you will be aiming at a different spot and not be aware it's happening.

[JSH]

There isn't much I can add to what has already been said.
I am with the grip and chrono thoughts myself. To master a wheel gun you have to shoot, practice.
One thing I will touch on is your target. You may want to try a different design. And by all means raise the elevation 2-3" on your scope! I don't like any holes on or around my POA. How do you shoot for groups? Pick up the gun and fire all of them?
It takes me at least 15 minutes, usually a lot more to shoot a 5-6 shot group. Make each shot your first shot. After firing a shot, lay the gun down. Close your eyes to let them rest, pick it back up and start over, adjust grip etc. Don't study the sights or cross hairs too long. Your eyes start to act up in less than 20 seconds.
Jeff

[kenyerian]

Practice, practice and practice some more. Decide on a load and practice.` For years all I shot was 429421 with 19grains of 2400. This has stood the test of time for me.

[root]

I've had 3 ruger superblack hawks 1st to shot excelent 7 1/2 like yours.
2nd I bought used 10 1/2 and it shot like yours with the same reloads I used in the 1st two.

Turned out it was the forcing cone.
Gun was also hard to eject spent shells. Turns out someone before me ran some really hot loads through it and swelled the cylinder.

I use the 4227 and the unique with the single cavity lee hollow point air cooled, sized, and checked. No scope.
off hand W/ irons I got 3 to 4 inch groups.

I took deer off hand with irons with both the 7 1/2 SBH guns. The 10 1/2 was sold to a smith with disclosure on the lead shaving and extraction problems.
He was the one who told me a few months later it was "shot out" he sent it back to ruger they fixed it.
I've since replaced the 10 1/2 with a 4 inch S&W mountain gun.

What I'm getting at is make sure the gun is in spec. rugers like other guns can and do get shot out.
So if you have looked at everything else and your loads are running fine in other guns start looking at your gun and cylinder timing.

HTH
Rich

[CJR]

Blue360Cuda,

I've found the following improved accuracy in my 44Mags:
1. Use a Brownell barrel throating reamer to uniform the taper entrance to the barrel.
2. ALWAYS trim ALL cases to a uniform length. Since I hard roll-crimp my 250 gr. Keiths, different case lengths will give different crimping pressures on the Keiths and cause velocity variations. To check you have adequate crimp; at the range, mark one round and keep shooting all rounds in about 5-10 cylinders except the marked round. Then after shooting 5-10 cylinders, examine the marked round to see if the CB has moved forward. If it has, use a harder crimp and repeat the range test again till the CB in the marked round DOES NOT move forward. A CB that moves forward can prevent the cylinder from turning-not good.
3. My standard 44 Mag load is 25 grs. IMR4227 (was Lyman accuracy load years ago) behind the 250 gr. Keith, with Fed Mag primers, Alox or LBT Blue lube for about 1350 fps.
4. If you really like the 44 Mag, start "whittling" some grips. Use Roper's or Bill Jordan's books for guidance. After you've carved about 3 sets you'll know what you need.

When you get a 44 Mag set up right, it is an awesome killing machine.

Best regards,

CJR

[DougGuy]

The Leupold FX-II 2x20 handgun scope is parallax free at 100yds. Is this the scope model in use? This could be compounding groups at 50yds quite easily.

If you put your pistol on the rest, center the crosshairs on the target @ 50yds, then move your head in a circular pattern. Do the crosshairs move in a circular pattern on the target? This is what parallax does, and this could be the entire problem.

[blue360cuda]

I have a magneto speed chronograph, I have used it a few times with the SBH but mainly use it on my rifle. I've just been focusing on group size but that's not a bad idea to strap it on more often and see what kind of ES and SD i'm getting. For shooting groups , yes I sit down and get settled then shoot all 5 or 6 at once. Try to keep my grip constant and cock with my off hand. As far as I know the parallax on my Leupold 2X20 is not adjustable. Assuming its set for 50 yds? Ill check into it. I do like the scope, don't think its really a 2x, looks more like 1.5x or less in real life. There's a bit more mag on 2x with my simmons 2-7X32 than this one.
I'm going to load up some 240 swc with 2400 today with the Fed 150 primers.

One thing I do notice with my loads that may or maynot be a big issue is concentricity. I tried using the flaring die in my hornady set as well as the Lyman M die, set either one to just expand the minimal amount. I've noticed though some of the rounds when seated the boolit is clearly buldged more on one side of the case than the other. I dont know how big of a deal concentricity is to wheel-guns. Ive tried seating each boolit as centered as possible before seating and I'll even seat it just a little bit then rotate it 180* and finish the seating, it seems to help a bit but Ill still have rounds with the bullet seated a little off to one side when you feel the case bulge after seating.

- For crimp with hornady dimension dies what I've been doing is seat everything the back out the seating stem and screw die down firmly so it touches shoulder than I use either 3/4 or one full additional turn and it seems to give a nice firm roll crimp. I wonder if its too much but Ive never had a single case bulge or split

- All of the starline brass was trimmed when i got it. Use LE Wilson case trimmer and the Q-gauge shell holder. I set it to trim about 2 thous shorter than the shortest brass I found in the bunch, all are equally trimmed to within 0.001. I have reloaded them atleast 2 times each now though so will go back and check again.

[44MAG#1]

If you go to a public range and there are other handgun shooters there get one of the top shooters you know to try the gun.
Part of it may be you. If you will watch a top bench rest rifle shooter you will see that they take much attention to EVERY thing they do. There is a reason for that.
A handgun is even more tedious due to one cannot just lay it on the bags and tickle the trigger. More of the shooter is on the gun.
Anyone that tells anyone that shooting a handgun from the bench is easy is a tall tale machine. It may be easy for them if they stay plastered to the bench rest enough to learn every fastidious quirk in shooting a handgun from the bench but not for the occasional bench shooter.
It is a lot easier to talk than to do. As it is in most things.

[blue360cuda]

The Leupold FX-II 2x20 handgun scope is parallax free at 100yds. Is this the scope model in use? This could be compounding groups at 50yds quite easily.

If you put your pistol on the rest, center the crosshairs on the target @ 50yds, then move your head in a circular pattern. Do the crosshairs move in a circular pattern on the target? This is what parallax does, and this could be the entire problem.

Doug Guy- Wow I think you may have hit the nail on the head . . . I just pulled it out and tried aiming at something in my yard, moving my head in circles and up/down side/side you can see the cross hairs walk around the target. This was done at an object about 30 yards away. Hmmm . . . Ill try this again at the range but I'm sure there is some parallax at 50 yds. That stinks, also noticed same thing with the simmons 2-7X32 on my redhawk. Since theres no adjustment on the 2x leupold I doubt anything can be done. Next time at the range Ill pay extra attention to keep the crosshairs perfectly centered in the scope, maybe use the rear sight and scope caps to help keep it squared up/centered. maybe put a bit of white out or a small mark on the scope bell to keep those crosshairs in the same spot every time.

This is interesting, and exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to get from you guys, thank you. I would have never given it a second thought myself.

So If I picked up an ultradot or something similar that may help, no parallax as far as I know with a red dot. ya?

[blue360cuda]

Found on another forum that Leupold will set the parallax to your specs for only 15 bucks plus return shipping. That's an idea. I'll have to look into this further, somewhere else I found a guy who has the same simmons scope I do, 2-7X32, and the objective is finger tight so you can back it out a little bit and essentially have an adjustable objective scope. Obviously Id be slightly concerned about moisture or something sneaking in and loosing the gasses in the scope so that'll maybe be a no-go. Having the FX-II leupold set for 50 yards may be the ticket. How would that affect parallax from 50-100 yds? or is it more noticeable the closer you get in terms of accuracy ? Guess only one way to find out but the next time at range Ill be doing some 100 yd shooting for sure.

[44man]

4227 will give vertical stringing when the gun warms.
I have tested the Fed 150 against the 155 at -20° in Ohio with 296 and still got better groups with the 150.
The scope should be parallax free at 50 but 30 is too close, just keep the cross hairs centered. Better said, keep your eye centered.
Watch Oregon Trail, most samples I bought were under size.
Hard lube will open groups.
You can't move the objective with the ring, the glass must be moved. Don't loosen anything.

[44man]

Hold the grip low and FIRM, do NOT let it roll, Your finger should be as straight as you can get it to the trigger. When out of recoil you should not have to re position the grip.
If your Hunter is a Bisley, you will have a harder time with the exact hold for every shot.

[blue360cuda]

Hunter is not a Bisley, its a regular plow handle model. Do you know if the pachy presentation grips will work?

[44man]

Hunter is not a Bisley, its a regular plow handle model. Do you know if the pachy presentation grips will work?
Yes, they fit and is what I use. There will be a little gap at the rear of the trigger guard, ignore it.
The plow handle is forgiving, I changed hold as targets changed shooting IHMSA and never lost a target.
I forgot to tell you, dump the "M" die, use a hard, tough boolit and get all the tension the hornady dies will give you. Plain easy roll crimp to the bottom of the crimp groove and no more.
Once you get a handle on loading, your Hunter is fully capable of 1/2" at 50. It is as good as the SRH.
The right loads will show the boolit base and ripples from lube grooves on the brass. I water drop WW boolits to 20, 22 BHN. I can darn near get 1/2" with my SBH that has run 80,000 heavy loads.

[Lefty Red]

I believe your grip might be the problem. Try gripping the revolver where you are comfortable and keep the same grip possibly by thumbing the hammer with your non shooting hand. Don't let go of your initial grip. Shooting small groups at 100 yds takes a lot of concentration.

Did that for about three months and a couple thousand rounds through it. Got six different set of grips for it. Nothing worked for me. Traded for a SBH Hunter. Mush better fit for me.

Although I will be getting a Red Hawk with a 4" or 5.5" barrel for open sights shooting and DA shooting. Just not for hunting.

Jerry

[DougGuy]

I saw a guy adjust parallax on a scope he used on an airgun, it can be adjusted without losing the inert gas but $15 is definitely a bargain considering how much those scopes cost. I am pretty sure it is set to 100yds which my first thought is who the hades shoots handguns at 100yds? Why did they choose that range to set it to? It just didn't make sense. A deer hunter with a handgun, 8 out of 10 of them are taking game at less than 50yds. Yes there are longer shots but most you read about on this forum are less than 50.

You know if this were me, I would parallax to the places I hunt and at those distances and adjust it accordingly. Also, you gotta consider what distance can the gun group 4" or less scope or no scope, and I wouldn't go beyond that distance either with parallax adjustment OR taking a shot at game. I use a tennis ball diameter for my own ethical range, if I can guarantee the boolit will strike within a tennis ball's diameter of where I am aiming, I will take the shot. If I cannot assure myself that the boolit will strike within that amount of variation, I don't shoot. In this computation, THE SHOOTER also comes into the figuring! Regardless of what the gun can do, if I can't readily find a tree or a steady object to rest against, this really cuts the range down severely. Standing firing with two hands, under actual hunting conditions I wouldn't be able to assure myself of being within that tennis ball at 50yds so my effective or allowable range is more like 35yards. <<THIS is where I would want the optics to be parallax free. Not sitting at a bench shooting a measured 50yd target.

An Ultradot is parallax free yes. I tried a TruGlo Red-Dot 42MMX2 Black 2-Power Magnification 2.5 MOA Dot and although I really liked the sight, it had the weirdest artifact, it had one bright dot, then two other less bright dots shadowing and intersecting the bright one. Like it was reflecting off of it's own dot inside the sight. I replaced it under warranty and the replacement did the same thing.

I also tried a Sun Optics long eye relief handgun scope that had something like 18 3/8"inches of eye relief, I think it was parallax free @ 50yds. I really liked everything about it but in the long run the eye relief was simply too long and forced me to hold the pistol out fully at arms length every shot. I would have been better off with a "Scout" scope, which those might interest you, they generally are 8" to 11" eye relief and if you get one with a side adjust, you can adjust parallax from 10yds to infinity.

I use the side adjust scopes on my airguns, and man I am totally hooked on them. Shooting an airgun which usually groups in the thousandths of an inch with a scope that is parallaxed out too far will drive you BANANAS! It's no different with a centerfire caliber either.

Parallax and your eye act like a see saw. If you move your eye to the right behind the ocular, the crosshairs move to the left on the target. With the extended eye relief of a handgun scope, there is no way you will place your eyeball in the same spot shot to shot and so the whole time you are aiming and moving the crosshairs, you are not actually aiming the gun's barrel at the same spot on the target, you are merely placing the crosshairs on the same spot. This is where the illusion takes over. When you move the gun's barrel to align the crosshairs at a distance OTHER than that which the scope is parallax free, you are just as likely to be pulling the barrel away from the intended point of impact instead of adjusting it TO the intended point of impact.

Edit: I read the specs on the scope you have, and it is actually 1.7x magnification.

[DougGuy]

Here is an interesting handgun scope. They (Leaper's) say it can handle bigger calibers, it is parallaxed @ 35yds, 1.25-4x32mm, 14" to 26" eye relief. Brand new scope hasn't fully hit the market yet but it's coming real soon. I like the Leaper's stuff a lot, it's well made and very nice to work with. If it will hang on a magnum level springer airgun, a .44 magnum won't come nowhere near tearing it up. Airguns are harder on scopes than centerfire pistols or rifles since they have to dampen recoil from both directions, and centerfire guns only have recoil in one direction.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leapers_UTG_1_25_4x32_SWAT_Pistol_Scope_EZ_TAP_Ill _Duplex_Reticle_1_2_MOA_1_Tube_Med_See_Thru_Weaver _Rings/5817



(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/25/new-handgun-scope-leapersutg/)

[Blackwater]

Great to see you're on the road to getting it all worked out. These things CAN be perplexing sometimes, but the ".44 clan" seem to be VERY up on what it takes to get these guns to shoot well, and also US, too! The only piece of advice in this whole thread that I'd have ANY slight contention with is the weighing of individual charges. I did a lot of tinkering very early on and years ago, and by diddling around and weighing charges, found ways to throw them more than adequately enough to do pretty precise shooting. With the time factor being what it was back then, this turned out to be time very well expended, and provided MUCH utility and speed for many years since. Weighing will never be wrong, though! Just thought I'd make note of that tiny difference of experience, FWIW. Every post in this thread has made very excellent points. I guess that shows how much we all think of our .44's, and what all they are capable of if we just do a little ministering to them?

[Fluxed]

Don't bother with the parallax setting of the scope. Just start shooting your groups at 100 yards. Any parallax error that comes up at shorter (or longer) ranges won't matter a bit on a critter.

[44man]

Parallax adjustments on the front move the objective lens but side adjustments move the tube with the cross hairs to the focal point. Both work.
Parallax is not a good excuse in most cases with a hunting scope. With a 5 mm exit pupil, say a 20mm objective, low power, adjusted for 100 yards, it will have parallax of 1/5" at 50, 1/2" at 250 yards and 9/10" at 400.
The larger an exit pupil, the more parallax you will see. Long eye relief scopes will start with 5mm but light scatters before reaching your eye so it will look smaller so you need to line your eye better. As you turn up power it gets smaller and smaller until you have a little tunnel. They also get very dark since not enough light reaches your eye.
Anyway, with a fixed, one piece tube, you can't move the objective so don't bother with the trim ring. You would have to adjust the rings that hold the glass in.

[DougGuy]

Anyway, with a fixed, one piece tube, you can't move the objective so don't bother with the trim ring. You would have to adjust the rings that hold the glass in.

That's what the guy did with the non-adjustable scope I saw him do on youtube, he made a special spanner that would fit in the two notches in the ring that the objective lens is fitted into so he could screw the lens in more and it worked pretty good.

[ole 5 hole group]

I'll give ya my $0.02 worth. Your targets at 50 yards look pretty good unless you are a somewhat active competitive shooter.

Parallax is a minor problem but if you keep your gun handling techniques consistent from shot to shot you won't find that a problem.

As for that CCI350 primer - that primer is the hottest large pistol primer made in the USA - To my way of thinking, it should only be used when you absolutely need that cartridge to go bang in the coldest weather. John Linebaugh tested that primer in his cartridges and found that it would at times increase peak chamber pressures by 10,000 psi over other primers tested. He settled on Winchester WLP's. Try using WLP's or the Federal 150 and see if that makes a slight difference.

Your displayed groups don't show me anything out of the ordinary for a non-competitive shooter - if your other groups are stringing vertically, that's normally grip problems, as when a person really starts concentrating on his sights, for some reason, they usually relax their strong hand grip and the bullet will go higher. When one first settles in behind the revolver and your sights seem perfect and you immediately take up on that trigger - normally your grip will be pretty solid at that point in time and the bullet will usually go just a little bit lower. If you can somehow concentrate both on maintaining a consistent grip and sight alignment - you will see consistent groups, whether large or small - they will be somewhat consistent.

A 2X scope IMO doesn't give you much, as most shoot a red dot as good as a 2X scope. Again, IMO, a 4X is minimum for load development. I use a Leupold 2.5X8X32 - you just need to clear that front sight, which sometimes is problematic. I normally do all my load development at 8X and you just have to have your timing down pat, as the crosshair will dance and you have to be in step - or else.;)

[44man]

So true that a handgun is 100% dependent on barrel rise. If grip is wrong you can see a difference between shots. Yet the 4227's can drive you nuts when the .44 gun heats. It gets faster and pressure goes up. Those shots hit LOWER because the boolit is gone faster before the rise is there.
Case tension must be even and is very important. I loaded my .475 and seen a difference with seating pressures but shot them anyway.148922 See the stringing for 5 shots at 50 yards?
I am very picky and anything over 1" at 50 is tossed so I can fix it. This BFR will normally hold 5/8" with a round group at 50. see my avitar. Ultra Dot too.
Recoil is not important with control of the grip. Try this at 100 yards with a .500 JRH! 148923 Sad to say it took 2 shots, first was 1/2" to the right. 4 minute dot is hard to work with. Now with a scope, look at 5 shotgun shells at 50 on their sides. I shot all 5 in the base but lost a few in the weeds. That is a 3/4" target. Most were center punched. 148924
I am a crazy old coot to shoot a .500 like that.

[44man]

Try to find a Loopy like mine, 4X and is half as old as I am. Ever see one with a target turret? It has withstood every cannon it has been on. I love that scope.
I found a Swift on sale and after reading a 2 page ad on how strong it was, I bought it. 4 shots with a .44 turned into a glass recycling factory. I got it fixed, it is now on a .22 pistol.

[blue360cuda]

Thanks everyone for the great tips/advice! I've been listening :)

Range report: Think I'm getting closer, Went out last night with some 2400 I was finally able to score locally. Loaded up my 240g SWC PB with also newly acquired Fed 150 primers. Did 21.0, 21.5 and 22.0g of 2400. Silly of me I didn't bring my chrono and I think the 22.0 were getting a little fast because I started getting some leading. Boolits sized .431.
148945 148946 148947 148948 148949 148944 148950

[blue360cuda]

After shooting yesterday I decided to give the 310g WFN GC Oregon Trail Boolits a go again. This time using H110 with the Fed 150 primers. Loaded up 21.0 and 21.5. I think I may be onto something here . . . the first 5 shot group of the day was sub 1 inch save for one low shot which was first shot of the day on a just cleaned barrel. Not sure how much that would effect things but I forgot to shoot my usual fowling shot this morning, again no chrono today, will bring it next time.
148953 148954 148955

Only have a handful of the 310 boolits left so plan to order some more. Would also like to try the 310 Lee boolits. Going to give the guys at Montana boolit works a try. Maybe I can just order some as cast and lube/size myself. That way I can play with sizing a little bit but more importantly try some different lubes out. I think these 310s show promise.

Really trying hard to keep that grip constant these past 2 times out. Today I brought a glove out with me, shooting all those 2400 loads yesterday with the factory wood grips start to sting after a while. Think I'll order up those pachy grips from midway today too. Thanks again for everyone with the tips/advice!

[JSH]

Looking a lot better! That round group with the 240 swc pb is what I look for in a group, a very nice cluster. Keep notes! I don't care how old or young you are keep good notes. I have written incomplete info on excellent targets think I would remember...... not.
One other thing I didn't see touched on in this thread, breath. Keep breathing until you are ready to squeeze that trigger. Yes things are moving around. But the eyes require oxygen to work. And, don't in hale and hold it, you are using muscles to do this. Exhale, relax squeeze boom.
Stay after it your making good progress.
Jeff

[blue360cuda]

Thanks Jeff! It was a good feeling like I'm starting to get on the right track here. Was getting frustrated for a while with those constant ugly 3-5" groups . . . for hunting purposes if I can keep under 2" at 50 and hopefully 4-5" or better at 100 I'll be a happy camper.

Ordered up 100 more of the 310 Oregon Trail boolits just now.

[DougGuy]

I think you are already 2" or less at 50. Curious now, what a different optic will do. I think the 100yd parallax is responsible for half your group size despite what other opinions offered. The only way to know, is to change it and see.

[44man]

Looking better, I love the lee 310. Hunting season is fast approaching so I have to start casting.

[DougGuy]

blue360cuda (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?41730-blue360cuda) this may be of interest to you, a factual and accurate description of adjusting telescopic sights from American Rifleman, vol 69, No 16, 1 May 1922 - page 4

https://books.google.com/books?id=g... Method of Focusing Telescopic Sights&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=gJkwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA408&dq=Precise+Method+of+Focusing+Telescopic+Sights&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAGoVChMI_4Kw_pX0xwIVzhWSCh3URggz#v=on epage&q=Precise%20Method%20of%20Focusing%20Telescopic%20 Sights&f=false)

A Precise Method of Focusing Telescopic Sights
BY J. W. Fecker, Optical Engineer

OPTICAL INSTRUMENTS have been developed for sighting ordnance material in order to increase the accuracy with which a piece can be laid upon a given target. In order to derive the full benefit of this valuable invention, it is a prime requisite that the instruments be correctly adjusted. This adjustment may be divided into two parts.

First, the instrument must be so assembled that the lenses and sighting mark within the instrument are properly spaced and aligned.

Secondly, the instrument must be attached and aligned to the gun so that the shot strikes upon the target when the sighting mark in the telescope is superposed upon the image of the target. I shall here deal with the adjustment of the first kind, as the second adjustment is already familiar to all users of telescopic sights.

In order that a fixed telescope shall always point directly at a fixed target no matter what the position of the eye, it is essential that the image of the target, as formed by the objective and erecting system, is exactly in the plane of the cross wires or other sighting mark. The eyepiece must be so adjusted that its focal plane exactly coincides with the plane of the cross wires. This being done the eye may be moved clear across the field without there being any displacement of the image from the cross wires. If an instrument is not so adjusted, when the eye is moved away from the center of the lens, the cross wires and image separate, i.e., the cross wires appear to jump over to one side, producing what is called parallax, a defect which makes it impossible to duplicate shots, as a very slight displacement of the eye from the center of the lens causes the image and cross wires to assume different relative positions, with resulting displacement of the shots on the target.

In adjusting any telescope with cross wires, the first operation is always to point the telescope to the clear sky or any uniformly illuminated surface, and move the eyepiece in or out until the position is found where the cross wires appear blackest and most sharply defined. In some telescopes the eyepiece is fixed and focusing is accomplished by moving the cross wires. In this case move the cross wires until position of maximum sharpness is obtained. The telescope should then be put in a steady rest and sighted upon the target, at the distance at which it is to be used, and it is important that the telescope be held firmly fixed.

The scope is now focused upon the target by moving the objective lens in or out until the target is sharply defined. Due to the large range of accommodation of the human eye it is not possible to tell exactly when the position of best focus is reached by judging the image alone. The final setting of the objective is accomplished by the parallax method. The head is quickly nodded slightly up or down, or from right to left, and the image observed carefully to see if the cross wires appear to jump. The objective is now moved very minute distances in or out, until a position is found at which the cross wires jump the least. Now move the eyepiece in or out a very little at a time, until a position is found where the jumping or parallax entirely disappears. The optical system is now in correct adjustment, and the position of the eyepiece and objective should be securely clamped.

When the sight is to be used on several widely differing ranges the adjustment may be made for the shortest range and the objective focused for the longer ranges and the position of the objective locking device marked carefully upon the tube with a very fine line and the range marked opposite.

After the scope is once adjusted for any range the eyepiece should never be disturbed, all focusing for different ranges to be done by moving the objective only.

In some cases the shooter will meet with a. condition in which he will find one wire will show parallax, while the other will not move at all. This condition is caused by astigmatism, which may be either in the observer's eye, or in the lenses of the scope.

In order to determine whether the astigmatism is in the telescope or the eye, observe carefully which wire has parallax, and rotate the telescope 90 degrees, and test for parallax. If the scope has astigmatism, the wire which appeared to jump the first time will remain quiet, while the other wire will show parallax. If the same wire appears to jump in both cases the trouble is in the shooter’s eye. Astigmatism in the eye can not be overcome by any amount of focusing.

It can only be corrected by the shooter having glasses fitted to his eyes to correct his vision to normal. A shooter who has astigmatic eyes must either wear his glasses when shooting, or have one of his spectacle lenses trimmed down and properly mounted in the eyepiece of his scope. A shooter who is near or far sighted only, can shoot with out his glasses, as he can focus the eyepiece for his eyes when adjusting the scope.

If the scope itself shows astigmatism, the only remedy is to have the lenses corrected.

This phenomena of one wire remaining apparently quiet and the other apparently jumping is known as cross parallax. It is caused either by the surface of some lens being cylindrical instead of spherical, or by strain in the glass. This latter may be caused by improper annealing, or some lens being mounted too tightly in its cell. Lenses should not be too closely mounted, as contraction of the mount in extreme cold will often strain the lenses sufficiently to cause cross parallax and affect the sharpness of the image.

This method of adjusting a sight seems very long and difficult when written thus at length, but in practice it is short and precise. An experienced observer can adjust a sight in a surprisingly short time, and during the war experienced adjusters frequently adjusted fifteen or more scopes per hour.

[Blood Trail]

Wish I could help. All my .44 mag reloading is done using 240 and 300 gr XTP. I've used blue Dot, H110, 800x, and 4227. My gun like all of them.

My favorite load is 300 gr xTP loaded 2.5 grs over max load with H110 (only recommended for Ruger Hawk series and SW). Here's a 100 yard group (Simmons scope)http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/3f7c7071805e0f7efcfd9512486ea789.jpg

The gun is 9.5" Super Redhawk

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/aced4e1e99a3748d252971318579de48.jpg

[44man]

Wish I could help. All my .44 mag reloading is done using 240 and 300 gr XTP. I've used blue Dot, H110, 800x, and 4227. My gun like all of them.

My favorite load is 300 gr xTP loaded 2.5 grs over max load with H110 (only recommend f'ed for Ruger Hawk series and SW). Here's a 100 yard group (Simmons scope)http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/3f7c7071805e0f7efcfd9512486ea789.jpg

The gun is 9.5" Super Redhawk

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/15/aced4e1e99a3748d252971318579de48.jpg
There you go! Kind of makes the blood boil, doesn't it?

[DeputyDog25]

I second seating the bullet on the powder, seemed to work well for me.

[Blood Trail]

I second seating the bullet on the powder, seemed to work well for me.

Don't you have to worry about pressure spikes?

[blue360cuda]

That's a heck of a 100 yd group! I have some of those 300g xtp around for my muzzle loader with sabots, might have to load some up and see how they shoot out of my wife's super redhawk 7 1/2". Never firelapped hers, it shoots cast pretty well, but really likes the factory Winchester white box 240s.

So question about bullet seating with the .44 and other wheel guns for that matter. In theory isn't it best to have the boolit seated out as much as possible while still keeping 0.050 from the cylinder face? Are there any boolits optimized for crimp groove location like this?

[Blood Trail]

That's a heck of a 100 yd group! I have some of those 300g xtp around for my muzzle loader with sabots, might have to load some up and see how they shoot out of my wife's super redhawk 7 1/2". Never firelapped hers, it shoots cast pretty well, but really likes the factory Winchester white box 240s.

So question about bullet seating with the .44 and other wheel guns for that matter. In theory isn't it best to have the boolit seated out as much as possible while still keeping 0.050 from the cylinder face? Are there any boolits optimized for crimp groove location like this?

From speaking to the guy who owns Garret Custom Ammunition, he sets his bullets darn near even with the cylinder increasing the OAL. He said that you can load more powder without increasing pressure.

Those 300 grs XTP's are pushing 1450-1475'ish.

[DougGuy]

The best arrangement is long enough COA for the boolit to be engaging the throat when seated in the cylinder. If you are using a Keith type LSWC you would definitely want the driving band to be in the parallel part of the cylinder throat. Personally I got away from the Keith boolits in favor of the Lee RF style boolit because they have a smooth transition from meplat to ojive to bearing surface on the sides. These also perform VERY well with a properly cut 11° forcing cone. The sides of the ojive and the forcing cone are dang near parallel to each other. Also the Lee RF boolits have dual crimp grooves, the lower groove lets you seat it out pretty long and they work very well when you size the throats .0005" over the boolit diameter. Match made in heaven if you want to know the honest truth!

.44 caliber Lee C430-310-RF seated to the bottom crimp groove in Starline brass:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

.45 caliber Lee C452-300-RF seated to the bottom crimp groove in Starline brass:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

[44MAG#1]

[QUOTEThose 300 grs XTP's are pushing 1450-1475'ish.[/QUOTE]

Out of a 44 Magnum!!!!!!!?????? What OAL and what load? What barrel length? What case and primer? In this world???

[Blood Trail]

[QUOTEThose 300 grs XTP's are pushing 1450-1475'ish.

Out of a 44 Magnum!!!!!!!?????? What OAL and what load? What barrel length? What case and primer? In this world???[/QUOTE]

Haha! You think that's something, Garret sells 330 gr hard cast moving at 1400 GPS from a 7.5 inch barrel! My Ruger is 9.5 in. I'll post specs this evening.

Note: please read the warnings

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

[Blood Trail]

The best arrangement is long enough COA for the boolit to be engaging the throat when seated in the cylinder. If you are using a Keith type LSWC you would definitely want the driving band to be in the parallel part of the cylinder throat. Personally I got away from the Keith boolits in favor of the Lee RF style boolit because they have a smooth transition from meplat to ojive to bearing surface on the sides. These also perform VERY well with a properly cut 11° forcing cone. The sides of the ojive and the forcing cone are dang near parallel to each other. Also the Lee RF boolits have dual crimp grooves, the lower groove lets you seat it out pretty long and they work very well when you size the throats .0005" over the boolit diameter. Match made in heaven if you want to know the honest truth!

.44 caliber Lee C430-310-RF seated to the bottom crimp groove in Starline brass:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

.45 caliber Lee C452-300-RF seated to the bottom crimp groove in Starline brass:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

Those look awesome brother.

[blue360cuda]

So how about doing the COAL trick with a revolver to find the best seating depth? Similar to what I do with rifles, have an unsized case, stick bullet in extra long and chamber in the rifle or I've made up my own version of the hornady OAL gauge by threading my 8mm brass and using a length of all thread to slowly push the chambered bullet out ( with bolt removed) so it just kisses the rifling. Then your usual back it off however many thous and test. The 200g TSX for my 8X57 love 70 thous off the lands btw good for under 1/2" at 100 yds.

The issue with this in my mind is the location of the crimp groove. I've read on Beartooth how he's used a Lee collet FCD to basically crimp wherever he wants. So as long as the cylinder/bullet style doesn't stick out it would be best in terms of accuracy to seat the boolit as long as possible? This would help keep everything concentric before the shot.

[44MAG#1]

Out of a 44 Magnum!!!!!!!?????? What OAL and what load? What barrel length? What case and primer? In this world???

Haha! You think that's something, Garret sells 330 gr hard cast moving at 1400 GPS from a 7.5 inch barrel! My Ruger is 9.5 in. I'll post specs this evening.

Note: please read the warnings

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html[/QUOTE]

I took it you were talking about the 300 gr jacketed bullets such as the XTP.
If you are I want to know the SAAMI spec load you are using to get that out of a 7.5 inch barrel.
1450 to 1475 with a 300 gr jacketed bullet in a 7.5 or a 9.5 inch barrel with a SAAMI spec load in a 44 Mag is La La land stuff.
Sorry but I own a chronograph and have shot 300 gr XTP's from a 10 inch revolver and have chronoed loads with the 300 XTP using both crimp grooves and you won't get that velocity level with any load that is at or slightly over SAAMI spec.
Sorry again for taking that statement to task.

[44man]

You do NOT need the crazy velocities from the .44 anyway. Mine are at 1316 fps from a 10" barrel.
My 330 gr will be less. Velocity hunting does not kill better then boolit work in the animal. It can stop penetration.

[Blood Trail]

Haha! You think that's something, Garret sells 330 gr hard cast moving at 1400 GPS from a 7.5 inch barrel! My Ruger is 9.5 in. I'll post specs this evening.

Note: please read the warnings

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

I took it you were talking about the 300 gr jacketed bullets such as the XTP.
If you are I want to know the SAAMI spec load you are using to get that out of a 7.5 inch barrel.
1450 to 1475 with a 300 gr jacketed bullet in a 7.5 or a 9.5 inch barrel with a SAAMI spec load in a 44 Mag is La La land stuff.
Sorry but I own a chronograph and have shot 300 gr XTP's from a 10 inch revolver and have chronoed loads with the 300 XTP using both crimp grooves and you won't get that velocity level with any load that is at or slightly over SAAMI spec.
Sorry again for taking that statement to task.[/QUOTE]

I got a chrono, too! Weird. No biggie, tho. Not sure why you have a hard time believing it when Garret loads custom 330 grs moving at 1400 fps. Unless he's lying, but that would be false advertising, right?

And Garret Custom Ammo is a pretty big deal in the hunting handgun world. He's got a pretty stout rep.

BTW, if you were paying attention to my first post, I'm a couple grains OVER max. [emoji6]

But then again, there will always be the naysayers. We call them "haters".

Happy shooting, my friend!

[Blood Trail]

You do NOT need the crazy velocities from the .44 anyway. Mine are at 1316 fps from a 10" barrel.
My 330 gr will be less. Velocity hunting does not kill better then boolit work in the animal. It can stop penetration.

You are exactly correct! But man, it's so much fun to push the envelop!

[44man]

I have killed so many deer it is crazy. I don't know why I keep it up. Every deer on the ground means work, gutting while I dilly-dally around. Load and hang to think about butchering and wrapping. I really hate it anymore. I wish I could afford to take deer to get processed.
I love the meat and so does my family. I also give much away to the ladies where I hunt but they come to help cut and wrap. i still have to skin and bring cuts to the table.

[Blood Trail]

I have killed so many deer it is crazy. I don't know why I keep it up. Every deer on the ground means work, gutting while I dilly-dally around. Load and hang to think about butchering and wrapping. I really hate it anymore. I wish I could afford to take deer to get processed.
I love the meat and so does my family. I also give much away to the ladies where I hunt but they come to help cut and wrap. i still have to skin and bring cuts to the table.

I'm a Bowhunter but I'll be using my super readhawk this year.

[44MAG#1]

Blood Trail:

If you will read my statement that you quoted I said I thought you meant the 300 gr jacketed bullets since you said 300 gr in your post in reference to the target shown.
I NEVER said Garrett could not get his claimed velocities.
I am saying you will not get 1450 to 1475 with 300 gr JACKETED bullets out of a 44 Mag at any area close to SAAMI specs. Period.
If you know of a pressure tested load that will I would say all of us would appreciate the information.
Ashley Emerson is doing the same thing Randy Garrett did in making very fine ammo. I would not say anything negative about Emersons ammo except the price is stupidily high.
There is nothing wrong with one being enamoured with their product. But, when it can basically be duplicated by a serious reloader it makes one pause to think of what the person is thinking about.

[Blood Trail]

Blood Trail:

If you will read my statement that you quoted I said I thought you meant the 300 gr jacketed bullets since you said 300 gr in your post in reference to the target shown.
I NEVER said Garrett could not get his claimed velocities.
I am saying you will not get 1450 to 1475 with 300 gr JACKETED bullets out of a 44 Mag at any area close to SAAMI specs. Period.
If you know of a pressure tested load that will I would say all of us would appreciate the information.
Ashley Emerson is doing the same thing Randy Garrett did in making very fine ammo. I would not say anything negative about Emersons ammo except the price is stupidily high.
There is nothing wrong with one being enamoured with their product. But, when it can basically be duplicated by a serious reloader it makes one pause to think of what the person is thinking about.

No harm, no foul. I'm relatively new to reloading, and I'm sure you've probably forgot more than I'll ever know.

I'm here to learn along the way. .44 mag is the only pistol caliber I care to reload. It's been a learning curve for sure, but that's part of the fun.

Found a couple different loads my gun likes with different powders. I find that my 9.5" Super Redhawk is not as picky as my 7.5" Redhawk was.

Anyway, I've often questioned the calibration of my chrono. It's the beta and about 6 months old. Being in the calibration/metrology field, I question accuracy on everything. Can't help it.

With that being said, does anyone know of a good way to test the accuracy of chrono's.

How does high/low light affect it?

[blue360cuda]

http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ChronographChapter.pdf


Check this out. If you read down a bit they do a very extensive test of many popular chronographs. Reading this is what made me buy the magneto speed.

Pretty good read for people who like to "dork out" over things I think ;)

[44man]

No harm, no foul. I'm relatively new to reloading, and I'm sure you've probably forgot more than I'll ever know.

I'm here to learn along the way. .44 mag is the only pistol caliber I care to reload. It's been a learning curve for sure, but that's part of the fun.

Found a couple different loads my gun likes with different powders. I find that my 9.5" Super Redhawk is not as picky as my 7.5" Redhawk was.

Anyway, I've often questioned the calibration of my chrono. It's the beta and about 6 months old. Being in the calibration/metrology field, I question accuracy on everything. Can't help it.

With that being said, does anyone know of a good way to test the accuracy of chrono's.

How does high/low light affect it?
I would not worry about the chrono. The .44 is great as is and my most accurate runs about 1316 fps with heavy boolits, some less. It is where accuracy is, no more or less. As you add powder by 1/2 gr amounts, you gain almost nothing but groups open so some of those super loads sold might be better served with buckshot.
You MUST get away from velocity, it is not a magic thing.
You found the RH is picky and that is true. It is the grip, not so much the loads but I found the RH likes H110 over 296 while the SRH and SBH will prefer 296. Don't ask, they are the same powder. One batch tests for Hodgdon and another for WW. My BFR's prefer 296 so I never buy H110.
Why would you ever try to get that much velocity from a 300 gr bullet? A Hornady 300 gr XTP is the very best with 20.5 gr of 296. It is NOT as fast as my cast.
My advice is to never look to match advertised speeds.
Another advice is to leave the chrono in the house and find accuracy without the darn thing.

[white eagle]

It is nice to know velocity of your most accurate load though
see no need for the fastest on the block either

[44man]

It is nice to know velocity of your most accurate load though
see no need for the fastest on the block either
I will see what they do in the end but I work loads first. The chrono is just a fun thing, never the working thing. Looking for small numbers has nothing to do with accuracy. To try and reach velocity is worse. I have many loads never run over the machine because I don't care.

[Blood Trail]

So what is an accuracy are you looking for? I know that's a subject question. I gave up trying to get my SRH to shoot sub-MOA. Now, I just shoot for MOD (minute of deer or hogs). If I can hold 5 inches off a rest at 50-100 yards, I'll take it. Of course I found a load my SRH likes at 100. I remember the first test load I ran in a RH I used to have. It was 240 gr XTP loaded a half grain under max of H110. I couldn't hold 10 inches at 50 yards (open sights, sand bags) to save my life.

I loaded a grain under max with 300 gr XTP and I had 5 out of 6 touching at 50.

You guys are right, we (I) do get wrapped up in speed. But that's how a lot of us bowhunters think.

240 gr. XTP loaded half gr under max with h110. 7.5" RH (don't worry about the 300 XTP labeling. I shot at the wrong target)

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/18/b044aebd5c5600f822c00109f4d92898.jpg

300 gr XTP loaded 1 grain under max. Same day. Same gun:

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/18/62e3a9812091677a8844dc0323ba80f8.jpg

I never had a chance to shoot my RH at 100 yards. I traded for a 9.5" SRH early this year.

[44MAG#1]

In reality, which is an eye opener at time, most people cannot shoot a handgun well. If you don't believe it frequent a range where one will see different people shoot.
With iron sights I cannot do as well as I could at an earlier age since I am going to turn 63 soon.
With a dot one will do better and with a scope one should do better.
Most with iron sights will do well to do 3 inch groups at 50 off of bags especially as they get into older age.
Offhand one should be able to do 11.46 MOA at whatever distance they are shooting.
Your 240 XTP target would tell me that that was you. A person would have had to have a load that would have just been off scale terrible or something would have had to have had a gun with something terribly wrong with it to do that bad if the load was worked up properly.
Keep at it and work up the load properly and you will do well.

[44man]

The 240 XTP needs 24 gr of 296 but the Hornady SIL 240 used 23.5 gr. However I use only a Fed 150 primer. I use 20.5 gr with the 300 XTP.
I don't remember the H110 RH loads but H110 was about 1/2 gr slower then 296. I believe we also used 24 gr with the 240 XTP.
One day the SIL shoot was winding down so I set my cardboard chicken at 200 meters to get better sight settings with my single shots. I had 2 shots left for the .44 so shot them. Open sights, Creedmore. You can see them both in the foot.149282
SBH. Measures 5/8". You can see why I loved Hornady bullets.

[44man]

That is how I shot after finding the mag primer is wrong and case tension had to be even.
Today I could not even see a chicken at 200 meters! Even with good eyes they look like a pencil point down there.
The other holes were from my little Wichita in 7R.

[DougGuy]

The 240 XTP needs 24 gr of 296 but the Hornady SIL 240 used 23.5 gr. However I use only a Fed 150 primer. I use 20.5 gr with the 300 XTP.
I don't remember the H110 RH loads but H110 was about 1/2 gr slower then 296. I believe we also used 24 gr with the 240 XTP.
One day the SIL shoot was winding down so I set my cardboard chicken at 200 meters to get better sight settings with my single shots. I had 2 shots left for the .44 so shot them. Open sights, Creedmore. You can see them both in the foot.149282
SBH. Measures 5/8". You can see why I loved Hornady bullets.

200 meters? I can go to the store and BUY some chicken and be back with it before I can walk that far and gather one up! :kidding:

Still, that is DAMN3D GOOD shooting!

The vaunted XTP. This is a classic example of how well a softer bullet/boolit will perform. The XTP will shoot through the tightest of cylinder throats, uneven cylinder throats, the most drastic of thread choke, and STILL slug up and seal in the bore in front of a magnum load of 296/H110. It's core is dead soft swaged lead, and the bullet has very little resistance to holding it's form through a barrel that changes it's shape numerous times. As long as there is enough burning gas behind it, you are pretty much guaranteed a positive seal in the rifling. Cast boolits if they are soft enough will do the exact same thing. This is one of the reasons I get such good performance out of 50/50+2% with Ruger Only levels of powder.

[Blood Trail]

Your 240 XTP target would tell me that that was you. A person would have had to have a load that would have just been off scale terrible or something would have had to have had a gun with something terribly wrong with it to do that bad if the load was worked up properly.
Keep at it and work up the load properly and you will do well.

Lord, I hope the awful results of the 240'gr wasn't me! Lol!

I consider myself to be an accomplished marksman. I was 9th award expert in the Marines, taught marksmanship as a PMI (primary marksmanship instructor), and was on the pistol/rifle competitive shooting team.

I remember that same load at 25 was terrible, too. Maybe it was my reloading process????

Right after I shot the 240's, I shot the 300's. And as u can see, dang near all the shoots, save one, were touching.

Maybe it was me and I had something off in my shooting form. Or maybe it was a combo of loose QA measures in reloading and me.

Unfortunately I don't have that gun anymore.

[44MAG#1]

Let's take your Marine Shooting ability first. I am sure you are good at shooting but at the range I belong to there was a guy that shot competitive bench rest rifle. He could NOT shoot a handgun either from the bench or offhand. I will say this he had terrible eyesight which was the reason he quit bench rest competition. But he had a flinch that you wouldn't believe with a 44 Mag. I've seen him shoot into the ground between the firing line and the 25 yard target. If he snapped on an empty chamber it was comical to watch the gun dip toward the ground.
There were master class bullseye and high master class bullseye shooters at the club too. One never seen them shoot anything bigger than a 45 Auto. Reason, because they were afraid it would mess up their bullseye shooting ability.
Now my shooting buddy was a master class shooter and could shoot very, very well with anything he shot up to an including a 500 S&W and even Encores that were more powerful.
He was an exception. But he was no better from the bench than me. Why, he did not shoot from the bench enough to develope excellent bench shooting technique. A handgun requires excellent technique because more of the shooter is on the gun. Not like a rifle that,one can lay on the sandbags lightly touch it and tickle the trigger.
In the end I was not saying it was you just interjecting that bit of info just to keep one grounded. Most have a too high opinion of their shooting ability simply because all they have to be at the range is better than the next guy. That doesn't mean that one is excellent just that he is better than the others.
While there were some that could shoot the 22 LR and 45 Auto as well as my buddy He stood tall when it came to everything from a 22 LR to the arm stoving up calibers to.
Just saying.

[44man]

Believe me, most is at the bench. The .44 is very touchy about even case tension and the primer. Lead softer then WD WW lead will give me fliers. I tried air cooled and the only way I could get them decent was to anneal the GC's.
When I started IHMSA I used 4227 and shot great 200 meter groups if the gun was cold. Everyone was using it. At a shoot I was lucky to get 10 to 15 hits. I went to 296 after finding the 4227's are very heat sensitive. I went into the 20's and 30's. Then I discovered the tension troubles and went so far as to get BR collar dies made. The die maker knew exactly what I was talking about. Still could not determine what collar to use for each case. But they helped.
I used RCBS dies first, then found Hornady dies and they made the most accurate loads EVER so is the only I buy. Yes I need WD boolits to withstand seating.
Next were primer tests and found the Fed 150 was IT. Hornady bullets or cast. 296.
I jumped to International production in 3 shoots and started to shoot 40's. Could clean all 5 shoot off chickens at 200 meters. I won Ohio state with 79 out of 80, missed the last ram from a shake. 80 targets is a chore. I won state .22 the same year with a Ruger Mark II, out of box with no sight settings. I missed 3 out of 60 and got all shoot off chickens at 100 yards. I had a good spotter. I missed the first pig, turkey and ram but my spotter seen the hits so I could adjust. Guess what bullets? WW Wildcats!
Other revolver shooters hated to see us drive in. We laughed and joked as we shot and it drove them nuts. One friend there had a Billy club on his scope tripod, said if his shooter missed he got the club! If you get your shorts in a wedgie you shoot worse.
I found to keep breathing as you acquire a target so you do not lose vision. Only hold at the last second.
I also won the company 500 yard KD range in the army with the M1 with one shot out of the X.
I could SEE back then.
My advise is if boolits do not go to the sights, think about your loading bench first. Brass will kick you in the crack!

[Blood Trail]

I've always wondered if pistol brass made that much of a difference. I have many types of manufactures brass. I'll think I'll do a little experimenting.

[Half Dog]

Well...the information you have gotten so far is tremendous. My shots touch each other at 50 yards and for loads, I use:




Barrell Twist
OAL case
Ogive to case bottom
OAL Bullet
Bullet
Bullet Diameter
Powder
Amount of powder
Primer


TC 44 mag
1:20
1.275
1.467"
1.710"
Hornady #44200 (0.695)
240 gr XTP
0.430"
296
23.0 gr
Winchester # WLP



I am hoping this shows up aligned.

[Blood Trail]

I picked up some TC 44 mag #9 ratshot blue capsules that I've been converting over to shoot in my srh.

[jimb.]

Are you shooting 5-shot groups? As I look closely at your pictures, I'm only seeing 5 holes. Why? Your handgun is a six-shooter, correct? You must test all six of your cylinder's chambers, not just 5. The 5-shot group convention, as used in rifle shooting, is not applicable for six-shot revolvers. Test your entire handgun, not just 5 cylinders.

jimb.

[44man]

Are you shooting 5-shot groups? As I look closely at your pictures, I'm only seeing 5 holes. Why? Your handgun is a six-shooter, correct? You must test all six of your cylinder's chambers, not just 5. The 5-shot group convention, as used in rifle shooting, is not applicable for six-shot revolvers. Test your entire handgun, not just 5 cylinders.

jimb.
I never found a difference with mine. I shoot 5 myself to keep even rounds in the MTM box. But they never go in the same chambers either.
I did all the testing of chambers in revolvers to find nothing to worry about. There might be a gun or two out there with a bad chamber but it is very rare.
Every problem I found with the .44 has been brass related. I can measure seating pressure and it is amazing the variation. I found brand new brass the very worst.
I had 50 new cases so I loaded them all and put my scope on the SBH, shot all at 50 yards from bags and got this.149629 You can plainly see what you would have at 100 to 200 meters. I sorted IHMSA loads by seating pressure as it is the same as pull pressure in the end.
The massive amount of work I have done with revolvers should not go to waste. If I help just a little I am happy.
Now you know how I get the guns shooting but if you have followed, you also know what boolits are best.
I actually got to the point I could tell why a shot was out and what primer you have in your loads.
I know what each grip style does from the S&W to the Bisley and mares leg. S&W 29 was bad, gun is deadly with 1/2" groups all day at 50 meters, I owned 5 or 6 at one time. ALL shot but never remove the gun from your hand or a 1/2" group will move 10". A Bisley does the same and is why Super Glue was made! The RH is sad but the SRH just needs a firm hold.
I fell into the Bisley trap and bought a Hunter, it was down the road in two weeks. Total good groups I ever shot with a Bisley= ONE!
"ROLL" bothers me to no end. Don't let a revolver move in your hand. Hold the mares leg low to get your finger as straight as you can to the trigger but you can actually shift a little with the grip. Not so with some others and 1/10" on some will throw boolits. Many can not take a change of a few ounces in hold.
Got in a lot of trouble over my findings and got booted when I went against resident Kings of the hill. But I am the most cantankerous old bastard you ever met and have to stay on my toes here because some are still dead wrong.
Good, good, people here and you must experiment and learn. My definition of accuracy and "shoots good" might be light years away.

[jimb.]

Very interesting, 44man. Thanks for the info. Yes, I understand the 5-shot groups vs. 6-shot groups philosophy. I have a 7.5" Ruger Super Blackhawk and a 10.5" silhouette Ruger Super Blackhawk. I love both of them. It's just that I'm a stickler when it comes to testing equipment & loads. I agree that, when you test revolvers with 5-shot groups, those groups hopefully should give you a good statistical indication of the performance of the gun & load, but I still insist on using 6-shot groups in my revolver testing, just to eliminate any doubt.

Incidentally, I was very favorably impressed with the build quality of my Rugers when I carefully measured and slugged their bores and all cylinder throats. VERY close and uniform tolerances! It's been very pleasant, informative, and entertaining communicating with everyone here.

jimb.

[44man]

6 shots is fine but you don't need 10 shots or 50, 5 shot groups either. All you really need to test a load is 3 shots. If something is wrong, it will show up. Chances of it being you or the gun is very slim. Most replies are about the shooter and I don't go there much. I think most of us can beat the world. I have a lot of faith in all of you.
I have been shooting the .44 since 1956 and it can be as cantankerous as me. It has never proven easy. You can't just stuff anything in it. But once you find the right way, it loads as easy and smooth as any gun you load for. Small points ignored by many.
Some say use softer boolits, use an "M" expander, use a Lee FCD, crimp harder, crimp separate, and on and on. Don't work! You will never cure the things I said by doing something else. You make stupid work and buy what you never needed.
Many things are pushed because many hate to admit they spent for useless items. It is like buying a $2500 revolver and expecting it to beat a Ruger to find it is worse. It will never be admitted. Pain is spending money and to justify it.

[blue360cuda]

44 man hit the nail on the head, the reason I've been doing mostly 5 shot groups is, i'm lazy and like to have all my loads I'm working up fit neatly in a 50 shot range box. Less chance of mixing up what exactly I'm trying to work up at the time, even though I usually write with a sharpie on each case.

So the Ruger went off to get checked out from whence it came, UPS picked it up 2 days ago so hopefully the smiths over at NH Ruger shop can give her a look over and come back with good news.

Found a pound of Blue dot today , been wanting to try that one out for a while. Also came across some Winchester LP primers. Love my local shop :) Has about 20 X the selection of our cabellas , one of the "big ones" not an outpost. Plus a bonus to support your local businesses too.

So, 44 man, what do you recommend in terms of case prep / resizing/ ect to get the neck tension as uniform as possible? As stated before, I'm using the Hornady "custom grade" carbide die set, have a M-die (which you dont seem to be a fan of but I've heard other cast boolit guys swear buy it). I'm shooting starline brass, trim each as little as possible in a lot to get all even +/- 0.001 with LE Wilson trimmer. I've seen some redding micrometer crimp dies online, have you ever tried those? I've been crimping with the kit hornady die, usually as a second step after seating all. Tried everything from very light roll to full on crimp.

[44man]

44 man hit the nail on the head, the reason I've been doing mostly 5 shot groups is, i'm lazy and like to have all my loads I'm working up fit neatly in a 50 shot range box. Less chance of mixing up what exactly I'm trying to work up at the time, even though I usually write with a sharpie on each case.

So the Ruger went off to get checked out from whence it came, UPS picked it up 2 days ago so hopefully the smiths over at NH Ruger shop can give her a look over and come back with good news.

Found a pound of Blue dot today , been wanting to try that one out for a while. Also came across some Winchester LP primers. Love my local shop :) Has about 20 X the selection of our cabellas , one of the "big ones" not an outpost. Plus a bonus to support your local businesses too.

So, 44 man, what do you recommend in terms of case prep / resizing/ ect to get the neck tension as uniform as possible? As stated before, I'm using the Hornady "custom grade" carbide die set, have a M-die (which you dont seem to be a fan of but I've heard other cast boolit guys swear buy it). I'm shooting starline brass, trim each as little as possible in a lot to get all even +/- 0.001 with LE Wilson trimmer. I've seen some redding micrometer crimp dies online, have you ever tried those? I've been crimping with the kit hornady die, usually as a second step after seating all. Tried everything from very light roll to full on crimp.
You are doing good. Don't need more stuff. I seat and crimp at the same time, just a moderate crimp. Your dies do as good as anything. They size and expand correct and the only thing will be the boolits to fit. Make the boolit tough enough to expand brass as you seat, not the other way. Think in terms of making cast act like jacketed. Even they need even case tension. Revolvers need tension to get good ignition, there is nothing to hold boolits in. The key is to have the same ignition for every shot. Looser boolits will shoot good but they must be shot together, not mixed with tighter ones. I am sure all of you have felt some boolits go in easier then others, they will be out. could exceed 10" out. Darn, some boolits would seat with just handle weight and is what lead me to measure.
We can't feel much with the press handle of course, things are in TONS of pressure. But I know seating boolits has felt different and is what you must pay attention to.
You can crimp to the base and not fix it.

[blue360cuda]

I know what you speak of, there are some boolits in a batch that while seating seem to go down with a decent amount of less pressure on the press than the rest. Are there any ways to keep the tension more constant? Or do you just cull or seperate the ones that seem to seat easier?

What exactly are you using to actually measure the bullet seating tension? Just feel at the press or is there something more scientific?

Does annealing the case neck help at all? Interesting what you say about virgin brass being the worst, I would think the other way around but nothing to back it up with yet. Thinking this may be a cause for some of these weird flyers I get occasionally

[44man]

I know what you speak of, there are some boolits in a batch that while seating seem to go down with a decent amount of less pressure on the press than the rest. Are there any ways to keep the tension more constant? Or do you just cull or seperate the ones that seem to seat easier?


What exactly are you using to actually measure the bullet seating tension? Just feel at the press or is there something more scientific?

Does annealing the case neck help at all? Interesting what you say about virgin brass being the worst, I would think the other way around but nothing to back it up with yet. Thinking this may be a cause for some of these weird flyers I get occasionally
NEVER anneal revolver brass. I have posted my tool many times but can do it again for you. 149750149751
I drill a hole through the handle at the top for a short pin,. It is hooked with a sliding link to the rod that is spring steel, Piano wire from the hobby shop, 1/8". see the faucet washer on the short rod? The rod has file marks on it. I start a boolit barely and seat with the long spring rod. the washer will go to a mark as the rod bends. I sort to the same marks. reset the washer for each load. I have an aluminum block at the bottom but a stainless hose clamp will work. Just hold the rod to the handle at the bottom. it really works.
You can have a dozen piles on the bench, some looser and all will group fine but never mix them. From loose to tight is an easy 10".

[blue360cuda]

So if neck tension CONSISTENCY is the name of the game then what is the problem you see with the M-die? Having all case inside diameter exactly the same using the M after sizing should in theory make the tension more consistent, even if it is slightly less tension.

[JSH]

Never say never.
Had issues with the 357 max. I was pretty sure it was bullet tension/pull. Granted the brass had been loaded an unknown amount of times. Hey I have like 2k of it. I annealed 3/8-1/2" of the mouth. Groups came together as the should.

Your seating arrangment, your pulling on the wooden knob of the spring wire correct?
You are sorting by which mark the washer goes to?

I see it is not technical, but it sure would add more consistance to the ammo.

[44man]

Never say never.
Had issues with the 357 max. I was pretty sure it was bullet tension/pull. Granted the brass had been loaded an unknown amount of times. Hey I have like 2k of it. I annealed 3/8-1/2" of the mouth. Groups came together as the should.

Your seating arrangment, your pulling on the wooden knob of the spring wire correct?
You are sorting by which mark the washer goes to?

I see it is not technical, but it sure would add more consistance to the ammo.
Yes, you have it.
The reason to not anneal is crimp is needed to hold boolits under recoil, soft will let boolits move.
Brass actually evens out after shot a while. My best posted groups were shot from old brass, some have been loaded 40X.
You need some tension for a good burn and crimp is just an aid to hold boolits in. Does not do much for burn. Even the easier to seat still has tension. The "M" die will remove half of it.
Crimp testing from full profile to none at all never showed any difference in accuracy if there is still tension but with no crimp, I shot single shot.
One reason I like the Hornady expander is it is short and only goes in about 3/8" so my boolit bases are the final expander.
If you shoot only light loads and use a soft lead, then maybe the "M" die will work.
One other thing that ruins tension is a very slippery lube. Your primer will move a boolit before good ignition. No, crimp will not hold. Some very hard lubes are very bad.
Years of lube testing has shown a vast difference in accuracy between them. You should test lubes and primers too.

[44man]

Sadly, my setup only works for revolver brass. Rifle cases will have the handle way too low to measure anything.
Even with a revolver case, the handle weight will come in but the boolit will be in and the washer will be set. Catch the handle to finish the crimp. In 61 years I never found a need to crimp separate. Never found a use for the FCD either.
Same as the Lee collet die, they do work to keep run out low but after a few firings of rifle brass, you won't chamber so brass will need sized anyway if just enough to bump the shoulder so the bolt will close.
All the extra stuff just opens the worm can.
A good set of dies like the Hornady will make the most accurate you can imagine.

[white eagle]

I keep experimenting and the more I do
the more I find what you say is rite on.
tonight I fired a few boolits with a harder alloy than
I normally use.Turned in some very respectable 50 yd.groups

[44man]

It is important to experiment. I don't think there is anything on earth I have not tried to make the silly 6 hole gun shoot.
It has been an adventure and a gain of the appreciation of the wonderful gun.
Soon you find things and start to toss a million things until it is as easy to get right as any simple loading and you will never notice me doing anything different at the bench because it is just small stuff. No special tools, nothing extra.
The revolver was a deep hole but you can climb out without getting your finger nails dirty. Soon every time you drop the hammer, your boolit will go to the sights no matter how much shaking you do.
Don't believe anything because there is only one word--Experiment!
What is the definition of insanity? :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Bodean98]

+1 on taking 44man's advice! He is one of the few whose posts I search out to read. I learned some more reading this one.
My 44 mag. Redhawk went from shooting 12" groups @ 25 yds to 3" groups @ 50 yds. Mostly with his help (whether he knows it or not)!
I also believe it will do better and am still searching for more accuracy.

[Blood Trail]

Finally got out to the range today. Loaded some pretty hot .44 mag loads. 24.1 grs of H110 under 300 gr XTP. The velocities where:

1456
1433
1430
1394

Group was about 1.5 inches at 50 yards. Didn't have enough time to shoot them at 100.

No signs of pressure. Gun is a SRH 9.5" barrel.

[44MAG#1]

Blood Trail:

Was the bullet seated out to the bottom crimp groove?

[DougGuy]

Blood Trail you are WAY over the max recommended charge of H110 for the load you are shooting. Where did you get this load data? This is a *dangerous* load and should NOT be published here in case some newb sees it and blows himself up.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/H110Hornady300XTP_zpsytnj5ifv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/H110Hornady300XTP_zpsytnj5ifv.jpg.html)

For what it's worth, I quit using the XTP in .44 because it was shedding the jacket and fragmenting the core and ruining too much meat. I picked a nearly whole jacket out of a doe with no core remaining, the bullet's core had sprayed half the deer with lead fragments once it came apart. This happened with several of these bullets from a 7 1/2" SBH, 20.5gr W296 (which is the exact same powder as H110) CCI 350 primer.

[Blood Trail]

Blood Trail:

Was the bullet seated out to the bottom crimp groove?

155127

[Blood Trail]

Blood Trail you are WAY over the max recommended charge of H110 for the load you are shooting. Where did you get this load data? This is a *dangerous* load and should NOT be published here in case some newb sees it and blows himself up.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/H110Hornady300XTP_zpsytnj5ifv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/H110Hornady300XTP_zpsytnj5ifv.jpg.html)

For what it's worth, I quit using the XTP in .44 because it was shedding the jacket and fragmenting the core and ruining too much meat. I picked a nearly whole jacket out of a doe with no core remaining, the bullet's core had sprayed half the deer with lead fragments once it came apart. This happened with several of these bullets from a 7 1/2" SBH, 20.5gr W296 (which is the exact same powder as H110) CCI 350 primer.

Easy killer, this load was developed under careful consideration from Ashley Emerson, the owner of Garret Custom ammo.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com

This load was specifically made for the Super RedHawk frame as it can withstand more pressure. When we pressure tested them, they wasn't that much over SAAMI specs.

Check out his website. He specializes in pushing big bore pistol calibers. He puts a disclaimer for each load stating what revolver they can be shot of out.

He's running a 330 gr hard cast boolit over 1400 fps in .44 mag. U can buy them on his website.

[Blood Trail]

155128

[44MAG#1]

Blood Trail,

You are correct. Your load is a +P load. You will find out, as I did, that when seated out it takes 3 gr more H110/W296 to reach the same velocity as when the bullet is seated deep. So with the bullet seated deep and using Hornady's data you can add 3 grains when the bullet is seated out to stay within normal pressure standard or close enough to it that it won't matter.
I do the same thing with a RedHawk 45 Colt with +P loads but my length is long enough and designed that way so it is too long for a Blackhawk and an S&W 45 Colt.
Just be careful with that load that it won't find its way into a lesser gun than a RedHawk.
Just realize what you are doing and keep the ammo separated from ammo that can be shot in lesser guns.

[44man]

Even case tension means a better burn consistency. Not to be ignored and heavy boolits will be slower.
Going over velocity with any boolit will take it from the RPM's it needs. I work loads from lower to max and see groups tighten as I go up but once too fast, I see groups open at the same rate they closed. It is merely twist rate for the boolit. Yes a heavy boolit can be pushed but for what use? They don't kill better. Revolvers are not 200 yard hunting guns either, so drop means little.
I forever feel it is boolit/bullet construction at the range you shoot that counts. 1100 fps needs different then 1400 fps. The wrong boolit at 1600 fps is worse then the right one at 1100.
Still, you must have accuracy with each.
I have never been able to shoot a heavy .44 boolit too slow OR too fast. Match twist.

[Blood Trail]

I've made up a batch. This is NOT my go-to load by any means (I'm a bow hunter), but I was seeing it I could make a good shooting, heavy bullet load that I can kill these big hogs with when I get tired of flinging arrows at them.

After this batch, it's back to middle of the road charges of Blue Dot and H110.