357 effectivness: help me sort this out, please!

[makicjf]

I have a 4 inch GP 100 that is slicked, honed , smooth, fast and accurate. I had taken to carrying it all day every day. I shot a few IPSC matches with it, and did pretty well. My primary load is the 358429 ( 168 grain, smaller front band version) loaded to just south of 1100 fps. I'll also use the lee rnfp with the big flat nose loaded to 1125 fps. (I have a mold en route for a 170 grain wide flat nose that has the same meplat as the Lee 158 rnfp). Both are accurate, shoot quickly and seem to thump steel with authority. Though not intended as a primary hunting round, these loads will be called upon to dispatch errant feral hogs, 'yotes, water moccasins, chicken snakes, rank roosters... all of which are common encounters in my neck of the woods..., and if need arises, two legged threats. I am not familiar with the lethality of mid range 357 load, but was pretty confident they "would" work well. Until last Sunday...
We had two batches of hen chicks delivered late last winter, and for warmth, the shippers stuck in equal numbers of roosters. We allowed the roosters to grow, but as the matured they began really abusing the hens, fighting, attacking hens in packs... egg production went to nada. We captured them, clipped wings and kicked them out of the chicken yard. All the Bardrocks somehow managed to get back in and the nasty behavior started again. I was done.
I shot the first rooster from 8 yards with a full throttle load center mass with the 358429 and h110 ( 1325 fps) a cloud of feathers and he ran off.. so I hit him again. 2 more required the same with the 1100 fps load and the wide flat lee bullet. I do not want to torture them and know for a fact that a lee 230 tc at 850 plants them. I killed the rest with 1 shot center mass from my sr 1911 and the lee TC bullet. No running, no sqwuaking , they just flop, flap a second and die.... My faith in the 357 was gone...
Were these nasty birds simply to light and the faster, smaller bullet zipped through? Would a more stout animal behave differently...ie.. given good COM hits with the 357 will it deliver a better degree of terminal performance on game size animals...
Really confused...
Jason

[petroid]

not to question your marksmanship, but did you autopsy the birds to verify the hits? flying feathers doesn't always mean a solid hit

[makicjf]

the three shot with the 357 had 2 through and through holes center mass up and down just behind where the wing enters the body. I actually thought I had missed/just clipped them until the first one expired... I was pretty mad at myself for missing and terrorizing the birds... until I investigated... so I questioned my own marksmanship... very fair question! The 45 holes were in the same spot...

[Maximumbob54]

Never ignore nature's ability to not realize it's dead.

[Beerd]

I'd have to try the .357 on another rooster or two before coming to any conclusions.
..

[376Steyr]

In my limited experience, "lightly" constructed critters don't expire nearly as quickly as you would think they would when hit with a "powerful" load. I attribute this to a lack of resistance as the bullet passes through.

[makicjf]

The " to light for the load" thought was my primary thought as well. I heart shot a coyote from 100 yards a few years ago with a full bore 170 from a 30/30 doing 2100 fps at the muzzle ( its what I had in hand ). He flopped, bit his side , ran, dropped, bit his side and growled. I had no follow up shot as he had left the dam of our tank ( which I counted on as a backstop) and was now in line with a herd of Black Angus. He ran a long way.... I shoulder shot the next one and he bang flopped. The various 45's I've dispatched roosters with must just have enough area to impart good damage.
Would you trust a 170 wfn doing 1100 fps at 15 yards or less to work on mid size game? All my hunting has been with 45's, 12 gauge rifled slugs or a 30/30 with a 170 grain at full tilt; I honestly don't know for certain if it will work as advertised. The numbers say it should, but I lack experience.
Jason

[BigBore45]

most likely you are not transferring as much energy as the slower bigger .45 does. I know this is going to sound odd but, try to slow down the boolit to around 900 fps and try it. maybe go to a lighter BHN of 12 so the bullet expands a bit and dumps energy into the rooster. allot of times that makes small animals "pass out" before they bleed to death. kinda the strait threw deal only the energy transfer is less due to projectile size and speed. kinda like shooting a deer with a moose bullet, wont expand and do its job.

[ole 5 hole group]

I think you might want to read up on a few things such as Gunshot Wound Terminal Ballistics or what others call physiology. When you shoulder shot the coyote, you probably broke both front shoulders - in any event, you incapacitated him sufficiently from breaking the shoulder that he went down and bled to death - the bullet breaking his shoulder/s was not the act that killed him - his bleed out did the nasty deed. Maybe you made a high CNS strike? When you heart shot the other coyote, he reacted to the bullet strike but it took him awhile to bleed out.

On an animal charging you - you want to make a stopping strike - that is, you need to take out his front shoulders or make a CNS strike and then finish the task at hand. Emptying all your bullets from your firearm into his lower chest will in all likelihood, result in that animals death in about 30 seconds or less/maybe more, but if he reaches you, those seconds won't be enjoyable.

As for those chickens - bigger is ALWAYS better - in your case those 0.452" holes had the right mojo while the 0.358" hole just missed whatever was necessary to hit, as hemorrhagic shock results from a sudden loss of large quantities of blood and tissue, the immediate result is primary shock (physical collapse) or total incapacitation. Hemorrhagic shock kicks in a whole lot quicker resulting in primary shock with a large permanent wound cavity, the larger the better - but that 357 will normally get the job done in spades and I'm thinking shot placement was a little off.

If you would prefer not to track an animal - make a CNS strike or take out his front shoulders along with a little meat - but if you don't want to mess up a few ounces of meat - punch two (2) holes in the animal by placing the bullet through the heart/lungs. Sometimes they will run 10 yards or they will go 150 yards - the distance depends upon if Ole Man Murphy is left at home or he's your side-kick for the day.;)

[Doc1]

There is no reason to question the effectiveness of the .357. The round has been with us for eighty years and has an admirable track record. Understand that every hunting and defence scenario has unlimited possible permutations. As an example, there are a number of wartime anecdotes of some combatants taking COM hits with the 30-06 or 7.92x57 Mauser (FMJ rounds) and remaining in the fight. No one here would suggest the '06 or 8mm Mauser are "under powered" rounds, yet they are demonstrably not 100% effective under all circumstances. Nothing is.

Having said all of the above, remember that the .357, the .45 acp and even the .44 Magnum - all known the be effective handgun cartridges - are, at the end of the day, only handgun cartridges. None of them hold a candle to the aforementioned 30-06 or 8x57 Mauser...not to mention many of the various magnum rifle cartridges. In all shooting, you should go by the numbers to determine likely outcomes, but always be prepared for the unusual or outlier example.

As a purely practical matter, a .22, a pellet gun...or even an axe handle, is more than sufficient to dispatch a rooster. In the old (and poorer) days when even the cost of a single .22 round was carefully budgeted, most rural folks just wrung the rooster's neck by hand. I usually just head shoot our roosters with a .22 when it's time for one to go in the pot. A COM shot with any centerfire round is a waste of meat. If you aren't cleaning, cooking and eating your roosters now, you should learn how. Even if you don't need the meat and aren't financially strapped, it's good survival practice, adds to your skillset and give your family greater appreciation for the food you eat.

Understand that I mean no offense. I absolutely hate cleaning chickens and small game, but I also hate waste so do the cleaning when necessary. It also scores me brownie points with the wife...who hates that particular chore even more than I do ;-)

Best regards
Doc

[dubber123]

I center massed a rabid racoon 4 times with LEE's 320 WFN at almost 1,200 fps before he realized he was dead. I was not impressed with my peashooter at that moment.

[makicjf]

I use them to bait in coyotes.... but cleaning for eating would require a different approach. A hatchet behind the head is the preferred method for meat birds
Thanks Guys!
Jason

[GRUMPA]

When it came to dispatching my chickens.....I used to do it the same way. Same thing happened to me, hit them center mass and it seemed like nothing. Thing is I found out the same thing as you did, so I brought out the 12ga and what a mess that was. Sure it was a 1 shot and they're adios but the mess was something else. The year or 2 after that we had 14 roosters to dispose of, we even tried to give them away, no dice.

Finally dawned on me I have a few boxes of those SPEER shot capsules, loaded some of those up. All it took was 1 shot and that was it, and the mess to clean up afterwards was minimal to say the least.

Now I know you guys will suggest other methods of culling the herd, but this guy don't run after those things and catch them.

[dubber123]

I had to dispose of several this spring. After past experience with center mass hits on poultry, (not impressive), I went with a .22 LR to the head. A bobbing chicken head at 40 yds. with iron sights is pretty challenging, after having them wake me up at 3am. numerous times, I welcomed that challenge :)

[Magana559]

Catch em and make them capons. They grow big and fat just like hens if not bigger. They are pretty good eating.

[Magana559]

I did the same a few years ago with my 357 and a lee 158gr SWC.
In my case it made a disgusting mess! Guts, feathers, and chicken meat went all over the place. Never again.

[shoot-n-lead]

most likely you are not transferring as much energy as the slower bigger .45 does. I know this is going to sound odd but, try to slow down the boolit to around 900 fps and try it. Maybe go to a lighter bhn of 12 so the bullet expands a bit and dumps energy into the rooster. Allot of times that makes small animals "pass out" before they bleed to death. Kinda the strait threw deal only the energy transfer is less due to projectile size and speed. Kinda like shooting a deer with a moose bullet, wont expand and do its job.

what????

[Mk42gunner]

Now I know you guys will suggest other methods of culling the herd, but this guy don't run after those things and catch them.

Well, if you insist.

Dad taught me this many years ago, before he gave me my first .22 even. You need a piece of stiff wire roughly six feet long, he used #9 galvanized but a coat hanger will work. Bend about six inches back on itself so a chicken's leg will fit, but its foot wont. Flare out the last 2-3 inches to about 3-4", and you have your custom made chicken catcher.

The thing that used to mystify me was how Dad could just step on their head and pull it off, I never could do that without the help of a garden rake.

Robert

[BigBore45]

what????


Watch a hard cast boolit at 1200 fps go threw ballistic gel, then watch a soft lead bullet at 800 fps go info gel. The fast hard cast bullet will not cause a large cavity until 4-6". The soft and slow bullet will start its expanding cavity at 2". The rooster is not a 14" thick deer. It's a soft 5" bird. Simple he is over gunned.

[Petrol & Powder]

Lot's of good info above. I tend to agree that a bullet passing through a chicken will kill it, just not always quickly. It's not a failure of the bullet or even bad marksmanship, it's just the fact that the bullet needs to damage something critical in order to achieve rapid incapacitation.

As for the OP's choice of a 4" barreled GP-100 in .357 magnum as an all-around tool for many tasks, including self-defense, I think that is an excellent choice. It's a gun he is skilled with. It is durable, reliable and his cartridge is well suited for those demands.


Handguns are good tools for killing things but surprisingly not always very good tools for stopping things. I'm always a little amused when people attempt to compensate for the deficiency of a handgun by selecting calibers that start with "4" and/or muzzle velocities well beyond the speed of sound. Those things certainly don't hurt but they do not absolutely guarantee success either. The key to rapidly stopping (notice I didn't use the word "killing") an animal (including humans) is seriously damaging something that is key to continued functioning.
Some of those key things are: Central nervous system, major blood vessels, heart and large bones needed for mobility. Big heavy bullets traveling at high velocity increase the odds of that bullet reaching those critical anatomical systems but lets face it, a 22 that pierces an aorta or a 32 ACP that severs a spinal cord will stop an animal just as well as a 44 magnum that crushes a hip bone.

Big heavy, fast projectiles are used to stack the deck in the favor of the shooter but there's more to success than caliber selection.
The .357 mag has a very good track record in serious social situations. If I had a good quality .357 mag revolver that I was proficient and comfortable with; I would be very satisfied in relying on that as a self defense tool.

[tazman]

Well, if you insist.

Dad taught me this many years ago, before he gave me my first .22 even. You need a piece of stiff wire roughly six feet long, he used #9 galvanized but a coat hanger will work. Bend about six inches back on itself so a chicken's leg will fit, but its foot wont. Flare out the last 2-3 inches to about 3-4", and you have your custom made chicken catcher.

The thing that used to mystify me was how Dad could just step on their head and pull it off, I never could do that without the help of a garden rake.

Robert

We had one of those chicken catchers by the door of our chicken house back when I was 8 years old(56 years ago). I remember using it to catch chickens. It was just as you describe and worked like a champ.
Ours had a short piece of broom handle on the end of it for easy handling.

[jcren]

I found that my wife's snub 38 special with powder puff loads under Lee's 158 swc would drop a opossum or dillo on the spot, but hot round nose .45 acp would pass thru and they would runnoft. More moderate loads with the lee 230 tc or 255 swc is a completely different matter.

[Blackwater]

Many will disagree, but chickens can be some of the hardest to kill things on earth, in my experience. I butchered some when Mom got tired of them picking at and damaging her flowers. Caught one, and chopped its head off with a hatchet, along with about 2" of neck, and it went crazy flappin', broke out of my grip, and literally ran around the yard "like a chicken with its head cut off." It seems there's really more to that old phrase than just a joke!

Maybe it's their simple nervous system? I dunno, but I wouldn't worry about the load. From what I've seen, the best load would be a very light HP in soft lead so that it'll transmit the most shock in the relatively thin and soft body of a chicken. That's just a guess, but it's what I'd try, I think. Even a JHP (perish the thought!) would likely do better. That Keith bullet was designed to ensure penetration, not transmit shock in small, light bodies. It'd be my choice for a carry load in the .357, and should do very well on those hogs or deer. For deer, I'd probably cast them relatively soft, but YMMV.

[Mal Paso]

OP your Self Defense plan is fine. There are not enough Killer Chickens to have a statistic. One man was stabbed to death by a fighting cock with a metal blade attached back in 2011. Other than people driving off the road to miss hitting them that's about it.

[dougader]

We had 50 meat birds that were ready for the freezer and the first one, after it's head had been lopped off, chased my 4 year old sister down the driveway. Every time my sister changed her direction, that darn bird followed. Craziest thing I ever saw. It's like that chicken was possessed!

I wouldn't be wasting heavy bullets with good alloy on chickens. I'd use a .22LR or my little .32 HRM and taking head shots. The Ruger 10/22 with a 4x scope can do dime sized groups at 25 yards; those birds wouldn't spook and would never know what hit them.

[Groo]

Groo here
The English [ back in the Empire days] recorded what worked and what didn't.
The .455 was designed for a short range defense round and was kept to the 600-700fps range.
The reason was stated that a boolet could be shot TOO fast and the target did not have time to react.
Tearing rather than cutting through.
The bird is so small that there is little time for tissue to build up infront of the boolet .
Like shooting darts or fmj.

[makicjf]

Thanks y'all. This makes sense. I was tinkering with the 358429 and unique with data from Sierra for 170 grain jacketed ammo. With 7.6 grains unique, a Winchester small pistol primer and my version of the 358429 water dropped and sized .358 with an oal of 1.645 I got 1226, 1226, 1223 , 1225 and 1230. Es of 7 and an SD of 3.5ish. Essentially the same results from my 20 inch Rossi 92 but going between 1520 and 1530.... Evil in a light, fast and easy package...as long as no roosters attack! I hope iI can dial the 170 grain wfn from mountain molds this well!
The GP 100 and the 357 have resumed thier rightful place by my side!

[shoot-n-lead]

Watch a hard cast boolit at 1200 fps go threw ballistic gel, then watch a soft lead bullet at 800 fps go info gel. The fast hard cast bullet will not cause a large cavity until 4-6". The soft and slow bullet will start its expanding cavity at 2". The rooster is not a 14" thick deer. It's a soft 5" bird. Simple he is over gunned.

I don't shoot hard cast at 1200fps or any velocity, for that matter...11bhn at 1200fps will kill a chicken just as fast as a 50/50 bullet at 800fps.

[Salmoneye]

Even chickens with their heads cut off will run around and live for a lot longer than you think they should...

Hence the saying 'Running around like a chicken with it's head cut off'...

[smilie=1:

[Char-Gar]

When you shoot small critters, velocity is not your friend. The bullets will zip right through and not deposit much energy in the animal. In your case a good flat nose 38 wadcutter going 300 fps slower would have done a better job. A stout loaded Keith SWC out of a 357 Mag is not a chicken gun.

[Artful]

... In your case a good flat nose 38 wadcutter going 300 fps slower would have done a better job. A stout loaded Keith SWC out of a 357 Mag is not a chicken gun.

38 wadcutter loaded backward is better but the Keith SWC will work if you hollow point it deep the nose breaks up upon contact :twisted:.

[9.3X62AL]

Never ignore nature's ability to not realize it's dead.

Especially STUPID nature, as in the case of poultry. Chickens were the next step of evolution after dinosaurs, and you'll never find evidence of atom-splitting going on inside a chicken yard.

[seaboltm]

I shot a feral dog once, maybe a 15 pound dog. Had the mange and would not come close enough to let me treat him. Before long all my dogs had the mange. So I sent the wife and kids (they were very young) to the store and I used a Browning Hi Power to shoot the dog. 5 ft, Gold Dot hollow points. Dog could only have been about 6 inches thick. Three perfect shots right behind the shoulder in about 1 second. Heart and lungs were gone. Dog yipped and carried on for about 30 seconds. I found the Gold Dots on the cobble stone walk way, all three perfectly expanded. As has been mentioned, sometimes nature does not cooperate with letting the animal know its dead. On the other hand, I used a Sig 228 to dispatch a mean chicken. Three quick shots, DRT. Go figure.

[historicfirearms]

I learned about too fast boolits when I was a young boy out deer hunting with my 1917 30-06. No deer were seen that morning but a nice fox squirrel was playing around in front of my blind all morning. When I got ready to get up for lunch the squirrel stopped long enough to get a good shot at him. The aught six shot true and hit the squirrel in the ribs. The critter jumped around for a few seconds then went up a tree. Two more shots finally brought it down, but I was shocked at the poor performance of my trusty deer rifle, at least against squirrels.
When I killed some roosters a few years back, a 22 to the head did the job but they flopped around for quite a while and got blood everywhere.

[lcclower]

Well, if you insist.

Dad taught me this many years ago, before he gave me my first .22 even. You need a piece of stiff wire roughly six feet long, he used #9 galvanized but a coat hanger will work. Bend about six inches back on itself so a chicken's leg will fit, but its foot wont. Flare out the last 2-3 inches to about 3-4", and you have your custom made chicken catcher.

The thing that used to mystify me was how Dad could just step on their head and pull it off, I never could do that without the help of a garden rake.

Robert

My momma could catch a chicken by the leg with a coat hanger wire in her left hand, yank, catch the chicken by the head with her right and throw a wringed-necked chicken over her left shoulder in one smooth motion. My job was to catch running headless chickens, dip then in the washtub to scald, and pick 'em. Took three or four pickers to keep up. That was back before chickens came in foam packages at WalMart.

To stay on subject, those 357 rounds aren't slowing down much passing through the roosters, most of the energy is imparted into the dirt just behind the bird.

I have a 200 gr. Keith style mold, pushed at maybe 950, will knock the curl out of a pig's tail.

[roverboy]

In my limited experience, "lightly" constructed critters don't expire nearly as quickly as you would think they would when hit with a "powerful" load. I attribute this to a lack of resistance as the bullet passes through.
Yeah, I'll agree with that. The .357 cast didn't have much time to deliver much energy on a small animal.

[FergusonTO35]

I've always believed the main reason why the .22 LR kills out of proportion to it's size is the super soft lead bullets and relatively high velocity out of the rifle barrel. Skinning squirrels as a youngster I was always amazed at how much even plain round nose value pack slugs deformed. My favorite tool for small critters is the .410 shotgun with full choke.

[Kosh75287]

+1 to what .376 Steyr and Bigbore.45 said. A somewhat loose analogy would be what happens when one tries to close a heavy vault door by punching it, vs. closing it by shoving over a longer period of time.

I wouldn't lose faith in your 168gr./1100 f/s load for dispatching 2-legged predators. How it would work on Coyotes is open to question, I guess, until you shoot a couple. The only one I've shot with a .357 was at @ 30 yards from a carbine, with a load that clocked 1344 f/s with a 158gr. jacketed softpoint. I got him behind the front shoulder, and he hopped, twisted, and dropped where he was. The JSP didn't expand all that well, so it acted pretty much like one of your solids would have.

[labradigger1]

If you shoot fowl, shoot in the head or broadside through the lower butt, this takes all the guts out.
Chickens are the darndest things sometimes.

[brassrat]

Wheres my Walmart at?

[Walkingwolf]

Ever hear the term running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. I usually use a 22 with a bullet to the head, they instantly drop just like being pithed. Change point of aim.

Chickens are not like people, with such a small brain they do not know they are dead.

[35remington]

Let me relate a somewhat relevant comparison.

I am a very avid small game hunter. I shoot a 22 a great deal when appropriate, also a 25-20 a great deal as well when something bigger may be run across when small game hunting, which is a whole lot of the time for me. This has led to me shooting a pretty large number of rabbits (cottontails) with both the 22 long rifle and the 25-20. The 22 is most likely subsonic hollowpoints, sometimes high velocity. The 25-20 is used with a pretty darn big meplat RCBS 85 Cowboy FN most of the time, usually around 13-1400 fps.

On everything else, the 25-20 is the better killer as expected. But on sitting cottontail rabbits the normal reaction to a ribcage hit from the 25-20 is to have them dash for a distance before falling over. When hit in the same place with the 22 they don't go anywhere near as far and usually just flop over. I've had this happen often enough it isn't a fluke.

On the more muscular woodchucks or coyote or raccoons the 25-20 leave the long rifle in the dust and yeah, I've shot those critters with both. The difference seems to be the fragile body makeup and low muscle density of the cottontail rabbit. Somehow, someway, the long rifle transfers more killing power than the more rugged, higher velocity, more powerful and otherwise more damaging 25-20 slug. On these cottontail rabbit critters alone.

I suspect your chickens, somehow, are the same way, and somehow the energy transfer/tissue damage per inch of travel is less with the 357 bullet in traversing the chicken than with the fatter slower 45 ACP slug. Not that a chicken has much chance of slowing a 45 ACP slug a whole lot, but something about the weight and diameter is transferring more "disable" to the chicken's system.

Like I said, by any practical measure an 85 grain 25-20 slug has a whole lot more potential energy and tissue damage potential than a 22 long rifle but it somehow don't translate to the humble and fragile cottontail rabbit. Again, flimsy muscle tissue is my guess. The breast meat on a chicken, since it don't get exercised much, hasn't the density that tree squirrel or raccoon muscle tissue has.

I satisfy my mind by rationalizing in such a fashion.

[9.3X62AL]

Some definite food for thought here, 35.

[bedbugbilly]

Reading this thread in terms of boolits and roosters reminded me of something that occurred where I am quite a few years ago. . .

The local township PD changed to carrying 40 S & W semi-autos. Shortly afterward, a neighbor of mine was having trouble with a stray dog that was getting into his cattle and herding them into fences, resulting in them getting cut up with bared wire. The Police Chief said he'd come out and take care of it. Well, he did . . . sort of. He found the dog, took out his 40 and proceeded to "dispatch" the dog . . . but found out that his pistol had very little effect on the dog after three shots. Finally, he dispatched it and when he looked at it, the first three shots had gone through the body with little or no effect on the dog.

A few months later, we had a early morning (around 2 a.m.). When we got back to the station, one of the deputies drove in (they kept their cars in the station). The front end was all smashed up and of course, we couldn't resist giving him the berries over it. He'd hit a deer while on patrol. One of the guys walked over and looked at the car and then said - "hey, are those bullet holes through the hood?". The cop started getting really irritated with us and finally the story came out. He'd hit a doe and it ended up on the hood of his car . . but it was still alive. So, he wanted to be "humane" and decided to put it out of its misery. Yep . . . pulled out his 40 and proceeded to pump several rounds into it. But, they went straight though the doe, through the hood and into the engine. After that, all we had to do was call him "Barney" to get him sputtering.

Moral . . . you never know on animal or human just how things are going to work. What might appear to be a killing shot and what should be a killing shot . . . isn't always so.