Misfires

[milkman]

My son has a brand new, 280 AI custom rifle. We are having problems fire forming brass for it. He is using a start load of 4831 SC, CCI primers, 30-06 brass sized in the 280AI dies and seating a bullet out into the lands for a crush fit when the bolt is closed. The action is a Surgeon, and the gunsmith is the best there is .

The problem is 50 - 75% misfires, some fire on the second strike, some never. There is, of course, a much smaller firing pin dent in the unfired primers, but looks sufficient to fire the primer. A second try with Winchester primers yielded the same result. We tried loading one of the brass which HAD fired and was at least partially fire formed with a primer only, no powder, no bullet and it fired every time with both CCI and Wolf primers, total of about 5 primers. Thinking we were on to something, we tried an UNFIRED, unformed case with no bullet, no powder, and the primer popped every stinking time also. The case was totally unrestrained in the chamber, except by the extractor, with the shoulder unformed and the primer fired each time. Ideas?

Milkman

[243winxb]

The case will headspace on the false shoulder, which will hold the case against the bolt face when fireforming. This will prevent the case from stretching/thinning and prevent case head separations. The actual false shoulder location will depend on your chamber headspace and the location of the shoulder of the case.
The case mouth is opened with a tapered expander to the next larger caliber. Then run up part way, not fully, into a full length sizing die. The bolt should close with a little resistence. This fire forming is needed when the case headspace, distance from head to datum line on shoulder, is under .010" or more when compared to the chamber of the rifle. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/falseshoulder.jpg

[243winxb]

You may have better luck with the bullet NOT jammed into the rifling. Let the extractor stop the forward movement of the loaded round. The firing pin, if strong enough, will push the bullet into the case on firing. This retards the velocity of the pin.

[milkman]

I have never heard of the false shoulder method, but it does look like it should work well. He did try some with the bullet off the lands, with no help.

[44man]

Makes me scratch my head but check to see if the firing pin has unscrewed a little. Some actions can have that happen.
Let me explain, a BR shooter built a rifle with a $700 action and shot one hole groups, then groups went to pot so he tried everything, new brass and on and on but the gun would not shoot anymore. Then one day the back of the bolt popped out. The firing pin was unscrewing and spring tension went down. He tightened it and went back to one hole so he adjusted the pin, measured the pressure and made a chart for group size with each tension.
The mistake is made every day with revolvers, everyone puts in weaker hammer springs for a lighter pull while I go the other way with over power springs.

[44man]

I have never heard of the false shoulder method, but it does look like it should work well. He did try some with the bullet off the lands, with no help.
This is the best way to go. Control the head space. Something might be absorbing the firing pin impact.

[Mk42gunner]

Along the lines of 44man's suggestion, I would check the firing pin protrusion.

Robert

[44man]

Along the lines of 44man's suggestion, I would check the firing pin protrusion.

Robert
Also true.

[milkman]

Firing pin protrusion is ok
Any ideas about why it would set off a primer only, but not a loaded shell, restrained by the bullet contacting the rifling?

[milkman]

44man
The bolt shroud is tight and I believe that is where you are talking about the firing pin being unscrewed. I am concerned about the spring being weak.

[country gent]

May be putting the action in a bind if rounds are tight in chamber to bolt face, not letting things "move" freely. Sizing oversized and down creating a false shoulder that allows easy chambering and good lock up works good. Most of the ackley Improveds were meant to use standard caliber factory loads and fire form to new chambers. Have you tried standard 280 cases to see if they chamber and fire?

[runfiverun]

which Ackley?
if it's the older correct cutting you just need to make regular 280 rounds and fire form them.
if it's the new Remington/nosler chamber they made their chamber different something on the order of .0012-.0014 different.
the Ackley round should fireform correctly with regular sized cases from the parent because it's designed to headspace in a different spot [neck shoulder junction] on the parent case in the Ackley chamber.
after you fireform, then the headspace measurement changes back to the shoulder area.

I'd say your just driving the case forward.
especially if your using the new style dies with an older [correctly cut] style chamber

[Larry Gibson]

Milkman

FYI; I would suggest you also switch to a medium burning powder such a 4895 for your fire forming loads. One of the SEE's I was directly involved with was when fire forming 270 cases into 280 Remingtons (no factory cases were available at the time) using a starting load of a powder very similar to 4831SC.

Larry Gibson

[milkman]

5R5
It is the old Ackley speck. And yes, they do form well when the primer goes off.

[44man]

I have a hard time with memory but the pin should be .060". It should not stick at any point in the bolt. Primers not seated fully can cause it. I hope a solution is found.

[milkman]

Still no luck with the fire forming and I gave some bad info in the OP. The cases are 280 Rem, not 30-06. We have tried the following
1. neck sizing with a smaller die to make it harder for the cartridge to slide forward in the chamber.
2. seating the bullet backwards, to again, make it harder for the cartridge to move.
3. We did use a start load of 4895 to eliminate possible SEE events.
4. the bullets are seated out as long as possible and crush loaded into the chamber.
5. Winchester primers were substituted for the CCI

The first firing on the 280 brass failed about 75% of the time. We loaded 10 of the brass which had fire formed and 1 of the 10 failed to fire.

The gunsmith assures us that the bolt internals are correct.

We are going to load some with pistol primers and try them. We are going to remove the eject pin and try that also. We are using a lot of gasoline and components, but there has to be a solution somewhere.

[44man]

Now there is something I forgot, the ejector! I always changed or weakened that spring. Some were so strong I could barely push them in with a dowel. No need to toss cases 20'.

[Texantothecore]

Federal primers are a bit more sensitive and may work.

[milkman]

Can't find federal primers anywhere, but the pistol primer should do about the same thing.

[Blackwater]

I have an Ackleyized Whelen, and it's always a challenge forming cases for them. Any little thing that's not right can cause the problems you're having. That Surgeon is a fine action, but nothing and nobody, even the BEST of mfgr's, is perfect. Still, though, I'm suspecting that the chamber is just a tad looser than your factory .280 cases. No way to know, of course, but if you don't have to use at least a little pressure to close the bold on your loaded rounds, that'd lead me to suspect it may well be the problem. What happens is that often, we just don't realize how hard those firing pins hit, and they DO have enough power to shove a soft, relatively thin brass case further into the chamber, thus shortening the headspace and softening the blow the firing pin is trying hard to give those primers. It's like hitting something or someone who gives with the punch, rather than standing rigid and getting the full effect.

I'd always used your method on my Whelen until I recently helped a buddy make 7MM Wby Mag from 7mm Rem.'s. This time, I used the old cream of wheat method. I used about 8 gr. I believe it was, of Unique, took a single square of toilet paper and packed it down with a pencil that'd fit inside the neck for a wad, and filled the cases with cream of wheat to almost the top, and then dripped a little candle wax on the top to cork them off. Be SURE to grease the cases when you do this so they can slide along the chamber walls to their new shape, and to clean the chamber VERY thoroughly afterward if you use this method. Then we just walked out back, fired them, and he got some nice and pretty well formed brass that he couldn't find for sale anywhere at that time. I think we did 60 cases that day. Kind'a fun, really. Made the air smell kind'a like popcorn in the oven! I'm thinking that if I do any more Whelens, I may well use this method. Bullets are gettin' kind'a spendy, and if I don't HAVE to waste them in forming, I think it's a good thing to just not do that. I never consider my Whelen brass to be "fully" fireformed until after the first full load. YMMV, of course.

[milkman]

The son contacted Surgeon about the problem. They said the Surgeon action was designed for bench rest. Bench rest primers are supposedly softer than standard primers. They suggested replacing the Surgeon firing pin springs with Remington springs and turning the firing pin to allow .070 extension past the bolt face. They said that would cure the problem. WE WILL SEE, the springs are on order.

[michiganmike]

Federal primers are a bit more sensitive and may work.

May be a quality control issue with CCI primers. I was having problems with CCI primers about a year ago. This was with a Ruger Hawkeye in 7mm-08. I switched to Federal primers and the problem has not reoccurred, in either the Hawkeye, or a new Savage 11 in .338 Federal.

[Motor]

It sounds like the case is being pushed forward by the firing pin causing a light strike.

I always fire form my 22-6mm AI brass with a 55gr bullet and Unique powder. But I also have a false shoulder because I'm using 6mm Remington brass.

If it was mine, I would try a 100gr bullet seated to contact the lands like you are already doing and use a pistol powder charge, I'm sure you can find one published or even a load using Trail Boss and prime it with a standard large pistol primer. The only problem is pistol primers are shorter than large rifle primers which won't help your situation but they are typically softer which will help.

I wouldn't try using the large pistol primers with rifle powder.

BTW: I use large pistol primers in my sub-sonic cast rifle loads so I know they will work. You may or may not pierce some but the fire forming loads are not high enough pressure to cause problems. It's something you will need to watch for then judge for yourself.

Motor

[milkman]

The primers are from a batch that is about 6-8 years old and have not given any problems previously. Stored in controlled environment.

[milkman]

We replaced the firing pin spring as Surgeon suggested and the problem was resolved

[44man]

We replaced the firing pin spring as Surgeon suggested and the problem was resolved
Maybe I was correct after all.

[milkman]

I can't imagine designing an action ( $1200) for benchrest that would not reliably fire standard primers, or why that would be desirable, but Surgeon said it was a known problem and their advise fixed it. However, I'm a tightwad and rarely shoot over 200 yards and can't imagine spending $1200 for an action under any circumstances.

[Blackwater]

Not a bad philosophy, milkman, but BR actions are made to a much tighter tolerance level than std. sporting actions are, and they generally make EVERYTHING to very tight specs. Add that in with a wildcat caliber and case forming, and it's not difficult to find this kind of thing. Those Surgeon actions are really first rate. A buddy has one and a local accuracy 'smith uses them a lot, and never had a complaint. It's just like learning to drive a Ferrari. They have idiosyncracies that we who are used to more generously spec'd guns don't, but for what they will do, they're the bee's knees. Not many of us want or need a Ferrari, but it seems many just WANT a "hot" or highly vaunted action like the Surgeons. It's just a whole 'nother ball game. And if your GUN ins't capable of BR type accuracy, you CAN'T learn to shoot to those standards. They can be a real education in and of themselves, IF they're utilized in the way they're intended to be used. It's like the difference between a good quarter or walking horse, and a sho' 'nuff race horse. Two very different standards and expectations.

[Bodean98]

That is an interesting conlusion!
I have read (and not heeded) 44man's advice on the revolver springs in other posts. As a matter of fact I too went the other direction and used a lighter spring.:oops: Perhaps I will learn to heed his advice eventually. I am glad to read you got a resolution to the problem. The 280 AI is an A** WHOOPER of a cartrige!!
FWIW my brother and I built a 280 AI on a remy action. He used the cream of wheat method to form brass. It worked beautifully.
A properly cut Ackley chamber,old or new, should have the .004" crush fit at the neck/shoulder juncture when chambering 280 Rem. brass. There is no difference in the chambers, only in the method of measurement. The new or standardized version is measured from a datum line on the shoulder of the Ackley case. The old version is measured with a 280 Rem. go gauge -.004". It actually measures off of the shoulder/neck junture as was stated before. If you cut your chamber and set headspace using the Ackley gauge, then insert a standard 280 Rem. gauge you will come up with .004" more protrusion. That was my experience, YMMV.

[fast ronnie]

I've been taking the ejector out of the bolt when fire-forming. The ejector tends to push the case forward in the chamber which damages the case head and starts a separation. It could be pushing the case far enough for the firing pin to not strike correctly.

[44man]

I can't imagine designing an action ( $1200) for benchrest that would not reliably fire standard primers, or why that would be desirable, but Surgeon said it was a known problem and their advise fixed it. However, I'm a tightwad and rarely shoot over 200 yards and can't imagine spending $1200 for an action under any circumstances.
Many factory rifles shoot so good that this tightwad has trouble looking for better too. Old WW 70 or a Savage, Rem 700! Just how can you go wrong? My 1919 Swede with a pitted bore is a consistent 1/2" shooter at 100. My old pre 64 model 70 shot 5 shots into 1/4" at 350 yards, .220 Swift. My old Rem in .222 would do 1/2" at 250 yards. Work and bedding of course.
My Weatherby .300 was a 1/2" shooter after bedding and floating. Head shot a chuck at 550 yards from sitting once. Mark V action a stinking wonder. This was a funny gun, I sent a letter to Weatherby about bedding and floating. Took forever for the answer so I did it anyway. I shot all loads of 4831 surplus to max and none went over 1/2" so I used 88 gr, max. Then I got a letter saying they do not recommend it. Tough! I made the gun shoot better then they could do. Shot cans of water to 500 yards, one shot each.

[Blackwater]

Several of these posts make me smile. Have a friend who's been the go-to guy for gunsmithing, sighting in guns, and hoss trading guns for the past 40-50 years in his community. He was raised with a gun in his hands almost literally, and he has the best darned eyesight of any man I've ever seen! Thus, it didn't take him long to get good, and by age 7, could shoot with any man in the county and never be embarassed, and sometimes won even at that age. People valued skill with a gun back then, even if their own talents weren't that hot.

He's sighted in guns for many people, doing as many as 300 or more just before deer season each year. He paid very close attention to those that shot especially well, and when someone wanted to trade or needed to sell, he's gotten many really good deals, and made a little money off many trades, but never much at the time. Being a "working man," this was a much loved boon to him. When he learned to glass bed, float barrels and work on triggers when they needed it, his standards and expectations for accuracy in the guns he kept, kept increasing. He now, and has for many years, had "usin' guns" that will do 1/2" at 200 yds. Currently, his favorite is a 7/08 M-700, and it'll do clover leafs at 200 (two hundred). He's shot many deer at over 500, and found very early on that the lighter bullets with their thinner jackets (usually) will still expand way out there. But he shoots and tests a lot. Maybe not all that many rounds at a sitting, but enough to verify and confirm POI at the various ranges. He really likes to keep things simple, and likes the scopes with the dots down the bottom vertical wire in his scopes. He knows how to make a trigger let off at just the right instant, and how to hold and rest a gun BECAUSE he attends to all the little variables that really DO matter. It's amazing what standard off-the-rack guns CAN do with a little proper attention. Learning what and how to do that isn't really difficult, and the proceedures have been developed for almost a century now, and are still progressing even today. It's just a simple result of real craftsmanship in action, along with simply WANTING to do it, and a little abandonment of ego and concentration on testing and observation.

Folks who are "too busy" for this, are, IMO at least, too dang busy period, but I seem to have values that are a bit different than most today. Hustling will and has always had its place, but in developing any skill, it's a real detriment and drag on real progress. Mostly, most of us just don't use the time we have effectively, but of course, that can always change if we just let ourselves WANT to make better use of what we have to work with, be it time, individual guns, etc. I learned that early in life because of the way I was taught and grew up, but even so, it didn't come naturally or easily at first. I'm about as slow a learner as anyone will find, but persistence is the key, along with a little motivation. I may not be the best in the world, or even at a shoot, but I ain't exactly chopped meat, either, and with my eyesight, I'll take that these days. All skills and knowledge are, and likely always will be, obtained only through effort and commitment. Be committed to getting better, and you can and WILL. Just keep an eye out for the things that you find seem to matter, don't be afraid to experiment, and never be "penny wise and pound foolish," and you too really CAN become a very good shot, and a real pistolero or rifleman. After all, you've only got so much time in this world, so why not use it to good effect?

[303Guy]

I have a Anschutz 22 hornet with a very weak firing pin strike. I use Federal primers with the belief that they are 'softer' and more sensitive than most. I get reliable ignition and very good accuracy with it but I must say the firing pin indent is scary small! Pistol primers seem to work OK too.

[milkman]

We are going back to the range Saturday with accuracy test loads so we should be able to tell if more work is required, but all his brass if fire formed now, so the problem should be put to bed. I think he is going to have the firing pin turned for .070 protrusion as Surgeon suggested also.

For those interested, he used, as mentioned, a Surgeon action, Bartlein barrel, Jewell trigger, McMillan stock and has a Zeiss scope on it. I will try to post pictures and groups later, but the poor kid can't afford to shoot cast and has to get by with jacketed.