HK military weapons having more troubles.

[Artful]

First the G36 now the MG5 - oboy

http://www.dw.com/en/the-bundeswehrs-latest-heckler-koch-problem/a-18696848


The Bundeswehr's latest Heckler & Koch problemFirst there were problems with the German military's standard infantry weapon, the HK G36. Now the same is apparently so for what's set to be the Bundeswehr's new standard-issue machine gun, the HK MG5.
http://www.dw.com/image/0,,18696793_303,00.jpg (http://www.dw.com/en/the-bundeswehrs-latest-heckler-koch-problem/a-18696848#)
According to the Bundeswehr's original plans, shipments of the MG5 (pictured above) were supposed to begin two months ago. A German military spokesman announced Sunday that the machine guns won't be ready until next year, confirming a report in the "Bild am Sonntag" weekly newspaper that said "serious delays" were to be expected.
The MG5 is made by the defense manufacturing company Heckler & Koch, the most prolific German weapons maker, and is set to become the Bundeswehr's standard-issue machine gun. The defense ministry has ordered 12,733 units, with a price tag of some 200 million euros ($222 million).
Issues with the MG5 surfaced in May, with reports of inaccuracy floating around German political circles.
According to Tobias Lindner, the Green party's federal defense expert, a Bundeswehr appraisal said the machine gun was only "conditionally fit" for use in combat. The defense ministry rejected that claim, however, announcing merely that "requests for changes have been made and these must be addressed."
Not the first HK to encounter problems
The issues with the MG5 follow a rather turbulent year for standard guns in the German military.
In April, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen announced (http://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209) that the standard-issue assault rifle, the HK G36, was unfit for combat due to accuracy problems that arise when the gun gets hot (http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-the-rifle-held-in-all-the-wrong-places/a-18402772).
http://www.dw.com/image/0,,17728356_401,00.jpg (http://www.dw.com/en/the-bundeswehrs-latest-heckler-koch-problem/a-18696848#)When the G36 gets hot, it doesn't shoot straight

It remains to be seen whether the 170,000 units currently outfitting the Bundeswehr will be remodeled, or whether they will be replaced. Heinz Schulte, a German defense expert, told DW in April that if the Bundeswehr were to replace the G36, it would be with the G416 or G417, both made by HK.


Meanwhile, Heckler & Koch (http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-given-negative-closed-oyster-award-for-lack-of-transparency/a-18562122) and the Bundeswehr are still fighting in court over whether the G36 is indeed a faulty assault rifle. Apart from that, three Defense Ministry commissions are looking into whether soldiers were put in danger by the rifle, and whether corruption was in play. The results of those investigations are expected in October.

[Scharfschuetze]

It's a development of the MG4 LMG and it's been around for a couple of decades now.

I first saw the above mentioned G34 rifle in something like 2002 being used by soldiers of the Bundeswehr. I'm not sure why it has taken close to 20 odd years to identify a problem with it or the MG5. "Inquiring minds want to know" as the old newspaper rag used to say.

[Artful]

HK MG4 is a .556/223 gas operated like the BelgianMinimi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Minimi) light machine gun and the HK MG5 is a scaled up 7.62x51 version almost identical operation to mg4. Sometimes scaling up a design isn't as easy as you'd think. As for the G36 it's been issued since 1995.

In April 2012, reports surfaced that G36 rifles used in Afghanistan would overheat during prolonged firefights after several hundred rounds were fired. Overheating affected the accuracy of the G36, making it difficult to hit targets past 100 meters, ineffective past 200 meters, and incapable of effective fire past 300 meters. The G36 has been called unsuitable for long battles.

HK said the rifle was not designed for sustained, continuous fire. German soldiers gave no negative feedback. Operational commanders advised allowing the weapon to cool between periods of rapid shooting.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-16)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-17) In February 2014, the Federal Ministry of Defence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Ministry_of_Defence_(Germany)) announced that the overheating deficiencies of the G36 was not a result of weapon design, but of the ammunition. The manufacturer of the ammunition confirmed this,[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-18) although experts disagreed.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-19)[/FONT][/COLOR]

A report by the Bundeswehr on February 21, 2014, revealed that the issues were not the fault of the rifle, but that one manufacturer of ammunition was making bullets with copper plated jackets that were too thin.[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-20)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-21)

On June 22, 2014, it was reported that Germany’s defense ministry has temporarily halted new orders worth €34 million ($46 million) over accuracy concerns for the rifle. The Bundeswehr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr) consulted the Ernst Mach Institut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_Institute_for_High-Speed_Dynamics) and theFederal Criminal Police Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Criminal_Police_Office_(Germany)). [22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-22)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-23)[/FONT][/COLOR]
On March 30, 2015, Minister of Defence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Ministry_of_Defence_(Germany)#List_of_Fede ral_Ministers_of_Defence_.28since_1955.29) Ursula von der Leyen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen) told the Associate Press that the weight-saving design is the root of the issues.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-24) This is based on a letter from Inspector General (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspector_General_of_the_Bundeswehr) Volker Wieker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volker_Wieker) advising the Stewards of Defence and Budget Committee of the Bundestag and the troops in advance of the publication of the report.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-25)[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-26)

The report was released by the Fraunhofer Ernst-Mach-Institut (EMI) and Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle 91 (WTD91) on April 19, 2015. According to the report, the observed hit rate drops down to 7% at 100 m when the temperature difference is 30 °C or above . Wherein the required hit rate by the Bundeswehr was 90%.[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-27)[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-28)
On April 22, 2015, the German Minister of Defence announced that the G36 would be phased out due to these concerns.[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#cite_note-29)

Currently the HK 416 is being fielded in Afghanistan
- a product improved Stoner M16 type weapon.

[Maximumbob54]

Hearing that Germans are making inferior weapons is just strange.

[Tackleberry41]

If you ever worked on their cars, alot of its just arrogance. They believe they make the finest of everything, and often is the case. But they also make Audis, and BMW or bavarian manure wagons. I remember dealing with the factory people, ask why I made to many of these repairs, ummm because you didn't make it right. Had a seal on the straight 6 mercedes engines, a 2 piece timing cover, a seal between the 2 sections. It was like clock work, 30k miles it started to leak, they tried this, they tried that. So when a new engine come out, would be the time to remedy such things, nope same seal, just leaked faster, and longer repair time. Before it would get fixed under warranty once, then the customer paid. New design was 2 or 3x under warranty. You ask them what are we supposed to do, people pay 80k for a car and in about a year its leaking oil in their garage, they want it fixed. But it obviously could not be their engineering, had to be something else.

H&K has been top of the heap for a long time, and have made some fine weapons. But started farming out their work, the great wall street way of doing things. H&K is putting their name on guns made by Umarex. Most wouldn't buy an umarex, well not an actual gun, fine for air soft. Friend of mine bought one of the 22lr MP5s, bragged it was better being 'H&K', only it wasn't.

Its funny to hear H&Ks answer, a military rifle that wasn't designed for sustained fire. Ummmm it s a military weapon, thats sort of what you do with them. But they won't make any changes, its not the rifle, no its the ammo, or the bullet jackets, or the alignment of the planets.

[frkelly74]

Not designed for sustained fire, just short battles??/ Come on!!

[Artful]

H&K has been top of the heap for a long time, and have made some fine weapons. But started farming out their work, the great wall street way of doing things. H&K is putting their name on guns made by Umarex. Most wouldn't buy an umarex, well not an actual gun, fine for air soft. Friend of mine bought one of the 22lr MP5s, bragged it was better being 'H&K', only it wasn't.

Actually I own HK91 - works well but I have a friend who trained and maintained the HK products in the South American wet lands. He opened my eyes to some issues that he had encountered down there so I wasn't as happy with my HK rifle reputation from the real world.

[Scharfschuetze]

I have a friend who trained and maintained the HK products in the South American wet lands.

When I was down south for the fracas in Central American in the mid 80s, I too saw G3 rifles have issues with their fluted chambers. Once the fluted chamber walls pitted, the violent action of the G3 would then rip the case head off and leave the case body in the chamber. The issue was really more of a soldier training issue, but the lack of -10 maintenance (operator level) ruined good rifles. For some reason, third world countries just don't get preventative maintenance. I guess that's why the AK series of rifles work so well in those environs.

My M16A1 in VN had a chromed chamber to preclude this and later M16 and M4 rifles have the complete bore and chamber chromed.

Off topic I guess, but offered as an addendum to the post above.

[Artful]

When I was down south for the fracas in Central American in the mid 80s, I too saw G3 rifles have issues with their fluted chambers. Once the fluted chamber walls pitted, the violent action of the G3 would then rip the case head off and leave the case body in the chamber.

That and rust in some of the receiver areas as well

[Tackleberry41]

Theres a bit of a difference in licensing a company to make a weapon, and being farmed out. As in stamping H&K on the side when it was made by a lesser company, Umarex. I have an ATI HK33, tho they call it something else. Seems, H&K didn't really make to many 33s. About the time it came out, they were moving onto the newer generation of weapons like the G36. Can't complain about the rifle in any way, runs like a dream. Brought it home, didn't do anything but load some mags and blast away. Haven't cleaned it since then, still runs like a top. A licensed weapon, you know it was made by ATI.

But the new trend of framing out work to other companies is a bit shady. Im paying a premium for that H&K stamp on the side, dang it I want them to make it, not just charge me for the name. It was odd to see those 22lr ARs in the rack, all with different names, yet made in the same plant, but with different price tags. You have to do your research anymore to know what your buying, is it a Ruger or Umarex, is it S&W or Umarex? Went thru it recently with a 22 pistol. The full size S&W M&P is not made by them, but UMarex, where the compact version is made by S&W. The Ruger SR22 isn't Ruger but Walther, which is really Umarex. We pay for the name 'Walther' on a gun, only do they even make guns anymore, but like Marlin. It has not worked out so well with Marlin.

I do imagine a rough G3 chamber would really make problems, they do yank em out pretty hard. They are not AKs when it comes to abusing them. They can be full off all sorts of carbon and still work. The G3 I have has been torture tested, I would have to think of the last time a cleaning rod went down the barrel, been a long time. Dragged it around on a 4 wheeler, in and out of a truck, blew mags thru it. Yet I know it will still work flawlessly tomorrow if needed.

[Artful]

I do imagine a rough G3 chamber would really make problems, they do yank em out pretty hard. They are not AKs when it comes to abusing them. They can be full off all sorts of carbon and still work. The G3 I have has been torture tested, I would have to think of the last time a cleaning rod went down the barrel, been a long time. Dragged it around on a 4 wheeler, in and out of a truck, blew mags thru it. Yet I know it will still work flawlessly tomorrow if needed.

Just don't get it lubed up and take it out into some the talcum powder dust in the desert regions - HK's roller lock doesn't like that.