Starting to reloaad for 454 Casull and confused

[wiiawiwb]

I've been reloading 45LC for about a month now and have been very pleased with things. I have been shooting the 45LC with my Ruger SRH Toklat 454 Casull and would like to start reloading for the 454 Casull. I'm confused about a few things:

1) The Lyman 49th shows the bullet diameter for the 45LC to be .452 yet it shows the 454 Casull to be .451. Which diameter should I use? I'm already shooting .452 through the Toklat. Bullet manufacturers like Beartooth Bullets show only 452/453/454 in bullets whose weight is above 325 grains.

2) I've been using the Lee dies set for the 45LC with no problems. The Beartooth website FAQ, it recommends using a Redding Profile die to avoid jump crimping. Has the Lee FCD worked for others?

3) I plan on using very soft shooting round at the outset for plinking. Which bullet size do you recommend?

[rr2241tx]

.452 bullets will be fine. Raise your 45Colt dies with spacers or reset them on Casull brass and they will work fine too.

[mdi]

Measure the cylinder throats to determine a good bullet diameter (pin gauges or soft slug). The Lee FCD was a major fail for me (I'm not a Lee Hater, but IMO the FCD is worthless). I shoot a lot of cast bullets in my .44 Magnums and I size the bullets to match the particular gun they would be used in (I have 5, .44 Magnums). The Lee die gave a so-so, nuttin' special crimp, but swaged down my perfectly, lovingly sized bullets to about .002" undersize for my guns. I'm very happy with my Redding Profile crimp die which works quite well for all my guns.

[DougGuy]

Forget the FCD with the carbide ring in the bottom.

If you have any known .452" bullets or boolits, you can try pushing them into the cylinder throats from the front with your fingers. If they won't go, try with a .451" those should go. If not, you may need to think about having the cylinder throats reamed so that you can use the typical .452" diameter boolits that are most commonly used diameter in any of the .45 caliber loadings.

It doesn't require a pin gage to measure with the boolit you are going to shoot from the gun anyway, and the bottom line is whatever diameter the throats are? Is the diameter the boolit will be when it exits the cylinder so you can see that size of the boolit before it is fired is secondary. You would want the boolit to be presented to the barrel/forcing cone at least the same size as groove diameter, better if it is .001" to .002" over groove diameter.

I would suspect the throats on the Toklat to be a lot more uniform than the throats on the general production runs of Ruger SA revolvers, but not sure what their diameter will be.

Do you know how to slug a barrel or cylinder? There are threads on this forum that are packed with good info on the *correct* way to do this so you arrive at an accurate measurement. You need a decent micrometer for this, as calipers are not accurate enough I don't care how meticulous you are with them. If you can slug your bore with an egg sinker that you can get at walmart, it will be engraved with the rifling when it comes out, you can simply put the slug into the cylinder throats from the front and it will perfectly show you if the throats are larger than the barrel. You would want the engraved slug to go into the throats very easily with little to no resistance. If it does that, and your .452" loads seat in the cylinder properly, you are probably good to go on all of it.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/1c19636b-ad1e-494f-b6f9-5f0dfeca2c57_zpsrhsyhapz.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/1c19636b-ad1e-494f-b6f9-5f0dfeca2c57_zpsrhsyhapz.jpg.html)

What will happen with the Casull brass, if the throats are smaller than .452" and you seat a .452" boolit and crimp it, it may not fully chamber all the way. This isn't an issue with .45 Colt brass because the boolit is nowhere near the cylinder throat in the Casull cylinder.

[wiiawiwb]

I am already reloading the 45LC using a .452 diameter, coated, lead bullet from Missouri Bullet and shooting it through my Toklat. So it definitely accepts a .452 bullet. I would be a bit reluctant to slug the barrel but could take it to a gunsmith who does.

This is what I've been reloading and shooting through the Toklat:

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=210&category=20&secondary=14&keywords=

[Duckiller]

Why are you worried about 454 loads if you only want plinking loads? Daughter really liked shooting her brother's Raging Bull with 160 gr cast boolits in 45 colt brass and not much powder. Very accurate. Just clean the front of the cylinder when you are through shooting.

[Motor]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition explains their .451" recommendation.
Quote "Bullets should be sized to .451". Larger bullets will not allow the cartridge to be used due to the tight tolerances found in the chambers."

I'm not commenting just simply quoting the book. :)

Motor

[wiiawiwb]

I want to get use to being able to shoot a dozen, or two, 454 Casull rounds, full house, at the range. Rather than go out there and "just do it", I'd like to work up to that. I have plenty of 45LC rounds (250 and 255 grs) for plinking. My objective is to start out with light 454 rounds and work my way up to some warm ones.

[DougGuy]

Have you loaded any of your loads in Casull brass? In that huge chamber, you could load a .456" in the .45 Colt case and get away with it because the boolit is nowhere near the cylinder throat when you load it. It's too short to reach the throat, same as shooting .38 Special in a .357 Magnum.

With the Casull brass, the part of the boolit in front of the case mouth will need to be able to be seated in the throat itself. It will be more accurate this way, BUT the diameter of the boolit, will have to be at the very least, a tad smaller than the throat diameter. This is why I get so many cylinders for throat reaming, because if a guy wants to shoot .452" and he only has .450" or .4505" or .451" throats, the loaded round simply won't FIT in the cylinder.

You will see what I am talking about if you have .451" throats and attempt to load a .452" in the Casull brass, and then try and chamber the round. It won't go far enough into the cylinder because the boolit won't go into the throat. Very common for this to happen. This is the reason why I asked about pushing a boolit into the cylinder throats from the front, so you can measure the throat with the boolit. If it won't go in the front with your fingers, it won't go in the back either when you try to chamber a loaded round. We are just trying to see what you are working with so we can steer you in the right direction. It's a little difficult to do without any measurements at all, at least this way we know what boolit will fit in the cylinder throats and what won't.

You could slug your bore and throats, it's easy enough to do.

[wiiawiwb]

Doug,

I have not reloaded in the 454 cases yet.

I just took a .452 bullet I use for loading 45LC and pushed the bullet into the front end of each cylinder throat (6) and it slides in and easily pushes to the back with no problem. Granted, there isn't much wiggle room but it fits without issue.

Here's the bullet I use if that makes any difference:

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=210&category=5&secondary=14&keywords=

148687
148688

So far, I've only shot factory rounds of Magtech from it. The Magtech is is a .451 diameter bullet:

http://www.magtechammunition.com/products/view-product?id=59

[wiiawiwb]

I have a spent 454 Magtech case. I can seat the .452 cast bullet above then chamber the round to see how it fits in the cylinder. Would that be helpful?

[Tatume]

So far no experienced 454 Casull loaders have pointed out that an inexperienced person can get into serious trouble loading low-velocity 454 Casull ammunition. This case is very large, and it is much more difficult to load safe, light loads in it than it is in the 45 Colt case. It can be done, but I do not recommend it for anyone without the experience needed to do it safely. The OP should stick to the 45 Colt cases for lighter loads, and load 454 Casull cases with charges from the Hodgdon Reloading Center. Do not reduce these charges.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

Before anybody yells at me for being too cautious, remember that most of us have been loading for decades.

I will add that even the component manufacturers publish some bad advice on this particular cartridge, with loads of slow-burning powders that are too low. This is why I recommend Hodgdon.

[wiiawiwb]

Thank you Tatume, that's an excellent point and I have read the warning by others, like yourself, on different threads that undercharging the powder charge can lead to problems. H110 seems to be the most often named powder in those instances that I've read.

My game plan, at the outset, was to load with Unique at slightly above the minimum charge of 11.3 grains outlined in the Lyman 49th for a 325 grain cast bullet. Once I was comfortable with that reload, I planned on gradually increasing the charge within the min/max range. Only after things have worked out would I switch to other powders, such as 2400, H110, 4227, as outlined in the Lyman manual.

[44man]

First, do not depend on crimp when you start loading heavier loads. You want case tension and that will mean a tougher boolit. The worst we shot were factory cast with a full profile crimp, must have been 1/8", two shots had boolits pull and tie up the guns. None of my loads pulled with a normal roll crimp.
.452" will be proper for your gun. You showed good boolit fit.
Next, if you go to H110/296, DO NOT load starting book loads. Start at the least 1/2 gr under max to max ONLY. You can get a complete failure to ignite and blow the boolit and powder into the barrel. The problem is the SR primer that we cured by cutting down .460 brass and using a LP mag primer. If you do that you can use any starting load.
For heavy loads you are better off using 2400, better for starting loads.
The SR is the curse of the .454 and the reason I never bought one. But I have worked with many.
The most dangerous thing you can do is miss a blooper and fire another behind it. I keep a brass rod and small hammer in my shooting bag for .454 shooters.
You have received excellent advice from the above posts. Do not trust starting loads from Hodgdon either with H110/296, they should be deleted.

[mdi]

FWIW; if you don't want to know critical dimensions of your gun, go with "easy push through", "push through", "hard push through", and "won't push through". If there is any fit question, measure! The above "push through"s are not measurements only what one reloader feels. Your push is prolly a lot different than my push through. Know for sure what your gun's dimensions are, and ferget WAGing..

[bigdog454]

I've been reloading the 454 for years since ruger first made it avaliable. be careful with 110/296 don't reduce loads with it; as far as light loads Ive loaded many using fast burning powder ie. bulls eye, h238, even red dot, but, the 454 needs a hot small rifle primer. While using standard sm rifle primers I had many squib, and ftf loads that lodged the bullet along eith a wad of powder in the bbl, The solution that I found was to go to Winchester sm rifle primers; they are rated for reg and magnum loads. Other magnum sm rifle primers may work also but, when I started using Win primers I never tried any others.
BD

[DougGuy]

148687



This one picture, says ALL you need to know about your cylinder and/or bore dimensions. For one, I can PROMISE you that your groove diameter is smaller than the boolit. This is a good thing. The cylinder throats are exactly the perfect size for .452" boolits. You are in fat city there! Good good good...

We often have problems with the .45 Colt case and developing less than magnum loads in the Ruger Only pressure range. And as mentioned above, the even larger Casull case makes the task even more difficult. The problem is load density and case volume. What happens in a large case that isn't loaded to the 75% or above density, is the powder can lay flat in there, along the bottom of the case, and when the primer fires, there is a LOT more powder exposed to the flame front than if it was packed up against the flash hole, so a greater number of powder granules ignites and now you have this super rapid combustion that can drive pressures well beyond what was expected, and in some cases, well beyond what the gun is capable of containing. That said... This is how you blow up a gun by downloading H110, this is how that explosion is made possible. This is a scenario you want to avoid with slow burning powders.

The other end of the stick would be to put a too fast burning powder, underneath a relatively heavy boolit. This is another recipe for a blow up, the boolit cannot move down the bore fast enough and the pressure curve simply outruns the volume and you have an over pressure event that most times just makes for sticky cases and flattened primers, in the worst case scenarios, it will lock up the cylinder where you can't turn it by hand, and not much more pressure than that the gun grenades in your hands when it is fired. This is the other way of blowing up a gun by using too fast a powder, and sticking it under a heavy boolit. Recipe for disaster in the making.

The third and most often repeated way to disaster, is a double charge of powder. More blowups are accomplished in this manner than by all other manners added together and multiplied by a factor of 10.

I have described the 3 most easiest ways to get in trouble with a large pistol case. Don't let this information scare you, it wasn't meant to throw the wicked witch of the west on her broom followed by flying monkeys into the discussion, it isn't like that at all.

Point being, cartridges like the 454 Casull, the 475 Linebaugh, the 480 Ruger, the 500 S&W, were invented/perfected so there is enough case volume to house enough powder to push these handcannons into the otherwise un obtainable levels of energy by hot rodding smaller cases like the vaunted 45 Colt and the 44 magnum. They were intended to be loaded to a high density, a high pressure, and a high velocity with heavy hunting boolits. To this end, they all do VERY WELL. Please don't try to un-engineer one into a target gun. Pick a smaller boolit like the 44 Special, the 45 ACP, the 45 Colt (in Cowboy loads) and enjoy them to the max!

Stick with your .45 Colt loads for casual shooting, but for the 454, get in the 90%+ neighborhood of the max load and let it rip! Buy you some Starline brass, when it comes, run it through the sizing die, pick you some loads and assemble them and go enjoy shooting it.

[wiiawiwb]

DougGuy,

I'm a man in my sixties and want to thank you for your above-and-beyond, kind, and helpful assistance. It is wonderfully clear how you took the time to really spell out the issues, problems, and opportunities as you see them. Learning the ropes in the 454 Casull world can be a pretty scary place. Your advice means a lot.

Thank you.

Wiia

[Motor]

The funny thing is I loaded some .452s a couple nights before you started this thread. These were the first 454s I ever loaded. My brother usually does them. Now I'm wondering if they will chamber.

The boolits were cast of something very hard. I ran them in and out of a 45 Colt FCD so maybe they will work. Well then again that doesn't do anything to make the part of the boolit that's sticking out of the casing any smaller.

I may end up pulling all of them. At least now I know, if I read this thread correctly that I can load them into 45 Colt brass and shoot them from the 454 revolver.

A timely thread no doubt. I should have read the 454 text before I loaded not afterwards. :)

DougGuy. You are obviously a very knowledgeable pistol man but there is no reason a fellow can't use published data to tame these beasts for fun accurate shooting. Case in point. 500 Smith&Wesson. 13gr of Unique under a 440gr Lee. Still plenty enough power to kill deer or whatever yet a man can shoot it 40 times in one day and still be having fun. Plus the accuracy is freekin unreal.

[Tatume]

And as mentioned above, the even larger Casull case makes the task even more difficult. The problem is load density and case volume. What happens in a large case that isn't loaded to the 75% or above density, is the powder can lay flat in there, along the bottom of the case, and when the primer fires, there is a LOT more powder exposed to the flame front than if it was packed up against the flash hole, so a greater number of powder granules ignites and now you have this super rapid combustion that can drive pressures well beyond what was expected, and in some cases, well beyond what the gun is capable of containing. That said... This is how you blow up a gun by downloading H110, this is how that explosion is made possible. This is a scenario you want to avoid with slow burning powders.

This is not the problem.

H110, W296, Accurate No. 9, and possibly other powders can fail to ignite if loaded too lightly. The primer will drive the powder and the bullet into the barrel. The powder will be fused into a semi-solid. If the gun is fired again the barrel obstruction will destroy the gun, and quite possibly injure the shooter and bystanders.

These powders must be restrained against the primer, and must develop considerable pressure in the early stage of combustion. Otherwise, ignition will fail initially, or will be incomplete (the fire will go out). Hodgdon has long advised to never load H110 below 95% of a maximum load. My personal standard is 2.5%. Multiply the max load by 0.975 to get the starting load.

This characteristic of the very slow ball pistol powders is well documented and references from reputable sources are available.

Take care, Tom

[44man]

Tatume has it in a nutshell. Every bloop we had was a complete failure to light the powder. It is strange to see the plug of powder in the bore and not hardly discolored from the primer.
By reaming .454 brass or cutting down .460 brass it all went away and we even had complete ignition with Fed 150 primers with starting loads but the 155 was more accurate.
The SR mag has a lot of PUSH but little flame.
It is VERY hard to ream pockets so I won't do that again. But it DOES NOT weaken brass since we went over 55,000 psi with the LP primers. However, just max book loads were more accurate then pushing pressures. I wish they would dump the SR primer brass, you will never know what the .454 can do.
Primers are so important and you can have too much too. Friend brought a S&W revolver, .45 ACP and it shot like a shotgun at 25. I sat and looked at the cases and told him, LP is too much. I made bushings to go to a SP primer and we got small groups so he bought 1000 SP cases. The little revolver shoots lights out now and his 1911 is better.
You all know I NEVER use a mag primer in my .44's with any powder. Now as soon as I get to the .454, .475 and .500's, the Fed 155 takes over.
I can't dispute DougGuy as he is one of the best we have. But failure to light is the problem.

[44man]

The funny thing is I loaded some .452s a couple nights before you started this thread. These were the first 454s I ever loaded. My brother usually does them. Now I'm wondering if they will chamber.

The boolits were cast of something very hard. I ran them in and out of a 45 Colt FCD so maybe they will work. Well then again that doesn't do anything to make the part of the boolit that's sticking out of the casing any smaller.

I may end up pulling all of them. At least now I know, if I read this thread correctly that I can load them into 45 Colt brass and shoot them from the 454 revolver.

A timely thread no doubt. I should have read the 454 text before I loaded not afterwards. :)

DougGuy. You are obviously a very knowledgeable pistol man but there is no reason a fellow can't use published data to tame these beasts for fun accurate shooting. Case in point. 500 Smith&Wesson. 13gr of Unique under a 440gr Lee. Still plenty enough power to kill deer or whatever yet a man can shoot it 40 times in one day and still be having fun. Plus the accuracy is freekin unreal.
Should have no problems but please dump the FCD. Worst thing ever for a revolver. It can ruin your tension, want the best? Use Hornady dies and it is fine to seat and crimp at the same time. I do all of my loads that way. Yes, made for jacketed but why treat cast any different? Toss "M" expanders too.

[DougGuy]

So this recommendation against downloading H110, y'all are saying it comes not from the first round exploding but shooting the second round into an obstructed barrel? I have not actually blown up a gun firsthand, but I always read that downloading exposed more powder to the flame of the primer than if it was packed up against it. I guess either school of thought is plausible, *if* the circumstances are right at the time the primer lights off. Yet another GOOD reason not to download this stuff. Thank you for the post Tatume.. I don't know it ALL, and I have been wrong at times. I cannot say with firsthand information how I blew up a gun, and for this I am quite thankful. I have locked a SBH up with 2400, flattened a few primers and stuck a few cases, this using a lighter j-word boolit than the Lee 310 that is my favorite now, and funny thing is by using this big flying oilcan of a boolit, by the time you leave enough room in the case to seat the boolit, is there still enough room left for powder that you can put enough in there to get in trouble with? I have to wonder!


DougGuy. You are obviously a very knowledgeable pistol man but there is no reason a fellow can't use published data to tame these beasts for fun accurate shooting. Case in point. 500 Smith&Wesson. 13gr of Unique under a 440gr Lee. Still plenty enough power to kill deer or whatever yet a man can shoot it 40 times in one day and still be having fun. Plus the accuracy is freekin unreal.

Oh I'm sure! I think handloaders are a curious lot anyway, and sometimes all that is needed to start a project, is the absence of a certain load. Someone notices a lack of information and thinks well, what if......

Years ago I used to shoot dots. A tiny triangular group of 3 dots fired upon from 7 yards, the idea being to place a boolit strike in the center of the dots so as to touch all 3 with the edge of the boolit as it passes through the target. It is a lot harder than it sounds, you have about .100" of wiggle room with a .45 and you start getting 2 of the 3 and you lose points. I had the fellas at Bulberry work me up a TC barrel in .45 Colt that had a shortened chamber that used cut down brass and full wadcutters cast in near pure lino over small charges of bullseye. I got pretty good at it and won some stuff at a national match in Ohio that year, but it was a dedicated shooter that took full advantage of tailoring the case size to adjust the case volume for the load instead of tailoring a load for the case volume one already had. It was an extremely accurate mouse fart. Somehow, the "fun" just wasn't to last, and I turned my attention back to full house loads. I can't remember why I chose not to use .45 ACP brass for this, there was a reason that steered me away from it. I think my case length was longer so there was more brass between the webbing and the case mouth. I hadn't yet learned about throating reamers and seating a boolit out into the throat and how much more accuracy this would gain.

So I think there is a lot to be said for taking a .45 caliber boolit and saying "I want this much energy, this much velocity" and then sizing everything to fit that so the numbers say you have a decent load density in the case which is easier to develop consistency IMO, but they already make smaller cartridges of the same caliber, hence my suggestion for using a smaller boolit for target shooting. I guess downloading these huge guns is like buying the raciest looking Camaro model and then ordering the smallest motor one could order. Never could see the logic in it.

[Motor]

44man. I'm well aware of FCD swaging boolits within the casing but point takin.
The only I know about slow ball powder and reduce load blow ups is what I've read by the people who write the reloading manuals.
My understanding of the phenomenon is that the powder actually dedonates just like low octane fuel does in a high compression engine. That's why they call it secondary ......... (I'm sorry I remember the rest of the term)

What's really strange is you see H-110 being used for reduced loads in published data now one I can think of off hand is a cast boolit 30-30 Win. load.

The only harm in reducing fast powder Bullseye, Unique, etc is going too low and not having the bullet or boolit exit the barrel. The people who claim they had an over pressure event with a reduced charge of fast powder either fired a round into a stuck bullet after a squibb or very most likely as DougGuy posted above, fired a double charge.

Motor

[44man]

So this recommendation against downloading H110, y'all are saying it comes not from the first round exploding but shooting the second round into an obstructed barrel? I have not actually blown up a gun firsthand, but I always read that downloading exposed more powder to the flame of the primer than if it was packed up against it. I guess either school of thought is plausible, *if* the circumstances are right at the time the primer lights off. Yet another GOOD reason not to download this stuff.
It is air space and a primer that pushes a boolit out increases airspace. As that changes each round will have a different ES on the chrono. The primer will move the powder load too far forward and it will vary. You can move the powder so far it is out of the flame area. If it does go off, the gap will save your gun. If you are shooting fast and have a stuck boolit, it is OVER for your gun. It is rare for all the powder to ignite too fast if a slow powder.
I would say there are more SEE events in a revolver that are saved by the gap then you can count.
Once I was loading for my 45-70 BFR with 4759. Went to a heavier boolit so I reduced 1/2 gr. had a boolit stick with unfired powder. Who would expect with 4759? I went back up on the charge to stop that stuff. Used Dacron for a filler too.
I had an SEE event with the 6.5 Swede because I did not seat the bullet deep enough. 4831, very accurate. Long throat that the bullet jumped out. I went to Varget and seated deep to the cannalure. Pete was over with his Swede and had a few SEE's with the primer in the action when the bolt was opened. I told him to seat deeper and add more powder. Fixed it.
More revolvers are shot every day with SEE events then you can count.

[Tatume]

I always read that downloading exposed more powder to the flame of the primer than if it was packed up against it. I guess either school of thought is plausible, *if* the circumstances are right at the time the primer lights off.

This is not something I read or supposed, it is first hand experience. The powder is found as a solid wad behind the bullet, the graphite coating is washed off, and the powder is (surprisingly) yellow. If it is removed and lit with a match it burns immediately.

When developing new loads I've had this happen several times and always caught it, without firing the devastating second shot. Once the powder charge is increased to a sufficient level, it never happens again. And I hasten to add, once the powder charge is increased to a sufficient level, small rifle primers work just fine in the 454 Casull case.

[44man]

This is not something I read or supposed, it is first hand experience. The powder is found as a solid wad behind the bullet, the graphite coating is washed off, and the powder is (surprisingly) yellow. If it is removed and lit with a match it burns immediately.

When developing new loads I've had this happen several times and always caught it, without firing the devastating second shot. Once the powder charge is increased to a sufficient level, it never happens again. And I hasten to add, once the powder charge is increased to a sufficient level, small rifle primers work just fine in the 454 Casull case.
There it is. Do NOT download H110 or 296 to starting loads. Go to the top. The SR mag will only work there.
Posts have been made about failures and answers are a certain primer GET OFF IT, Increase the load. Yeah you want lower recoil, Why did you buy a .454? I get sick of guys that want a putt putt load. Buy a .500 and want 900 fps. i would buy your gun in a second. Why need .45 Colt loads in a .454? Can you shake hands or are you a girly man?

[wiiawiwb]

I can answer those two questions. I'll start with the second one first. Girly man? Never met a guy who shot .454 who was.

If my Ruger Toklat only shot .454 Casull, it would have had significantly less appeal and I would not have bought it. There are times when I'll fire a dozen .454 rounds at the gun club but it shakes my fillings loose. It's a punishing round to shoot and I can't envision wanting to shoot 50 rounds of it at a time.

So when I bring the Toklat to the range I'm able to also shoot 45LC. That means that I can also have a little fun and shoot more rounds without having to spend another $XXX to get a separate 45LC pistol and lug another one to and fro'.

I know many guys who have Glock 20 (in 10mm) and buy an aftermarket 40S&W barrel. Why buy the entire cow when it milk's free?

So, to answer you in one sentence....it saves money, is more versatile by enabling you to shoot nuclear or fun rounds, and there is less to have to carry around.

[Motor]

44man. What a foolish comment to make on a cast boolit forum. Get freeking real. If I wanted to shoot full house loads all the time I wouldn't bother with casting.

Why don't girly men shoot full house loads from their 45/70s or any of the other 50 or more calibers I see being loaded here on castboolits.com? Because that's not what it's all about.

Again, what a foolish comment. You should be ashamed. Who snuck into your house and posted that garbage using your handle?

Motor

[44man]

44man. What a foolish comment to make on a cast boolit forum. Get freeking real. If I wanted to shoot full house loads all the time I wouldn't bother with casting.

Why don't girly men shoot full house loads from their 45/70s or any of the other 50 or more calibers I see being loaded here on castboolits.com? Because that's not what it's all about.

Again, what a foolish comment. You should be ashamed. Who snuck into your house and posted that garbage using your handle?

Motor
No flame intended so I apologize. My problem is those that want to reduce H110 or 296 to reduce recoil. No problem with shooting .45 Colt loads. Use a lighter boolit.
I have a great fear of anyone going to the book starting loads in the .454 with the above powders.
If you are going to use them, you are going to have to put up with recoil.
You have too much other, HS-6, 2400 or even Unique but take boolits down to 250 gr or so, don't try to get 335 or up to shoot at 900 fps.
It is a safety issue with me so don't play around with those two powders. Loaded right you will get belted, no doubt.
It is nothing personal but many buy a .500 and want light loads, OK, did you know a .500 JRH can be shot from the S&W? Drop boolit weight and go to a faster powder.
Maybe "girly man" was harsh but why buy a big gun? I will be 78 in Dec and I love the .500 JRH above all my others. 440 gr at 1350+ fps.
I shoot the same loads all year because they are the most accurate and are what I hunt with.
My .44 costs a dime a shot and the .500 might be 12 or 13 cents. Nothing to run 64 shots a session (all the MTM box holds.) I see some factory loads run from $2 to as much as $6 a shot, I see no reason to reduce my cost.
Yes, I understand some are recoil sensitive and have seen more nice .44's for sale with the original box of factory loads with 3 or 4 shot. I would scoop them up in a minute if they didn't want more then they cost. I think they got a huge surprise with the first shot and the .44 is the baby of the family. Big, heavy SRH with a scope on it too was the last I seen.
Only one revolver I refused to shoot. .50 Alaskan with smooth Micarta grip panels on a Bisley.

[wiiawiwb]

You should buy the guns you want for whatever purpose you want. It's your time and your money. It's also none of my business nor anyone else's, for that matter. Quid pro quo, its none of your business why others buy what they want and if you don't like it, well, too bad.

[Tatume]

Something for something?

[44man]

Something for something?
That is what it is about. I have a friend that does not hunt but he buys big cannons, .475 and .500 S&W. Every time he touches one off he says "OW" and shakes his hand. I look at him and ask "WHY?" He just wants the biggest and baddest even if he gets beat.
He SHOULD reduce the boolit and loads.

[Motor]

The notion that shooting less than full house loads in any pistol is in any way wrong is just silly. "why buy a big gun" The size a weight of guns like my 500 S&W make them easy to hold steady and shoot accurately.

Hitting what your shooting at and having fun doing it is what's most important. I have shot full house factory 440gr from my 500. I can shoot them accurately but I won't be shooting 40 of them in one day. Besides they are way overkill for anything I'd be hunting. My cast 440gr at 1100f/s is no slouch. It's tack driving accurate and fun to shoot.

I'm sure most people have similar experiences with everything there is to load for. Doesn't matter what gun or caliber it is.

44man. Weather it matters to you or not I accept your apology for the girly man comment. I've read many of your posts and that seemed way out of character for you.

I understand your concern about reducing ball powder but anyone who reads their reloading manuals should know better.

I do believe that over 90% of people that reload and probably close to 100% that reload cast boolits make less than full power loads for one reason or another.

Motor

[Tatume]

I understand your concern about reducing ball powder but anyone who reads their reloading manuals should know better.

The people who write the reloading manuals should know better too, but they don't. Many of the starting loads they list are dangerous.

[DougGuy]

SOME of this stuff is not really "published" data per se, but some of the wiser cautionary tidbits seem to be handed down through channels like this forum, old handloaders sharing their long treasured knowledge in book form or comments and quotes, and quite a few of these CAN be good solid guidelines for those of us who haven't been around forever. We all have our taboos and our fav todo's that we live and load by. The fact that we are all still here, ten fingers, ten toes, and a back that ain't broke, got that way from listening to that inner voice that says "don't do that.." and harkening back to reading the gun rags long before the innernet, and remembering those cherished learning methods and the things that taught us that this is how we teach OURSELVES. We had Elmer, Skeeter, John, Ross, Brian, Phil, and a host of others before them to mentor us to where we are these days.

I will agree with 44man, it makes no sense to buy a handcannon and then want mouse fart loads for it. I liken it to buying a hot looking car and then sticking the smallest motor they offer in there. Of course since it is a cartridge that fires a projectile that means handloaders and casters simply MUST come up with about every load possible for the caliber, and wring out all it is worth, and then try and shoehorn it into a new wildcat, the list of practical (and some NOT so practical :shock: ) accomplishments goes on and on because that's JUST how we are.

There are a few things I will not do, some are outlined in previous posts in this thread. Download slow burning powder. Use fast burning powder with a heavy boolit. Use 10.0gr or more of Unique in a .45 Colt case OR a .44 magnum case with a 255gr or heavier boolit. Use over 9.0gr Unique in an old Colt, a clone of an old Colt, or a S&W. I dump the next charged case EVERY TIME the press gets banged or tapped or shaken outside of the normal repetitive rhythm of movements. I will not use FROG LUBE anywhere near a live round in a carry gun. There are others, these are the ones that come most immediately to mind.

Speaking of mind, don't mind me being how I am, that's just how I am. Good luck with your .454 OP, I would own one but for the life of me I haven't yet managed to find something I cannot do with my .45 Colt Vaquero and my .44 Magnum SBH. If I do find something I can't do in the North American deer woods with either one of those fine calibers, I shall simply say to myself that it must not need doing that bad.

[Motor]

I don't look at it like the same way. I look at it like having nitrous injection. When I want the extra power all I have to do is hit the button. Or is this case load it up.

I think is far more foolish to push something less powerful to its extreme limits than to tame something down.

That's the true beauty of these beasts. You can go from mild to wild with one gun. :)

Motor

[44man]

I don't look at it like the same way. I look at it like having nitrous injection. When I want the extra power all I have to do is hit the button. Or is this case load it up.

I think is far more foolish to push something less powerful to its extreme limits than to tame something down.

That's the true beauty of these beasts. You can go from mild to wild with one gun. :)

Motor
Now that is a good way to look at it.
The reason I don't download is all of my boolits are too big and heavy to get to work if I slow them. I showed about a 2' pattern with my 330 gr in the .44 when I took it down to 1100 fps.
This SBH has 80,000 heavy loads through it but I also shot many thousands of light loads through it and the .45 Colt with light boolits and 7 gr of Unique, my tin can loads. Yes I also do it but the bigger calibers have not taken kindly because I have no boolits that can handle lighter loads.
But I enjoy shooting them to the best. Grips that work for me eliminate any pain, unlike my friend. I have never seen him take more then two shots before he hands me his guns and says "Here, you shoot them." He just has no use for such big guns. His S&W is not the big heavy one, it looks like a larger 29, no ribs or weight and it is nasty, even to me. His big problem is he does not cast and uses my boolits so he would have to buy lighter ones.
I am so used to the bigger ones, when I step back to the .44 I have to look to see if it went off!
But that is a good thing for me when I hit the deer woods.
My rifle hunting friends are started with my .500 JRH first until they can hit good with instruction and are comfortable with it, then I step them down to the .44. makes a world of difference and works better then going from a little gun up.
Going up in steps always has them think it is going to kick but after losing fear first, they become great shots faster.
Jerry had his son here, big kid, He was scared to death of my gun until I showed him it could be shot with one hand. He took it with some fear but soon he was draining my ammo box and was hitting beer cans at 50 off hand. He then took his fathers .454 and hit water bottles at 100 off hand. It really does work and must be the best thing I ever did for a new revolver shooter.
Off course you need to watch who you give a big gun to. No youngsters or girls. It is not done for laughs. The person must have strength so you are the judge.

[MT Chambers]

The orig. recommendation of .451" bullets was/is because of the close tolerances used by Freedom Arms in their .454 Casull cylinders, cases with brass too thick at the neck would need .451" sized bullets, although I have always used .452" cast boolits in my F/A......oh also, drop the FCD (Factory **** die).

[DougGuy]

OP, better jump on this, 200 Starline .454 Casull brass left!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?287761-WTS-Starline-454-Casull-brass

[Lloyd Smale]

44man brings up some good points. No you don't have to shoot full power loads all the time but if you don't want to and you want mid level loads pick up a keg of 2400. 110 isn't good at mid range loads. Also in my experience with the 3 FA 454s ive owned they do like 451 bullets and even shot them better then 452s. One of my guns would take 452s but the other ones you really had to push them home. One thing you have to keep in mind is like 44man said case tension is critical and when you size to 451 you loose some so you need a set of dies that sizes down enough to give you the tension you need. Also his point on primers isn't off base. The small rifle primer probably wasn't the smartest thing back when it was designed. Two options worked for me. First I had my best groups with all three guns running ww small rifle standard primers. Don't know why but it was true for me. Second option is to cut down some 460 smith brass and use cci 350s. The 454 is to me a hot rod round. It can be finiky if it doesn't have a lot of pressure. Personaly I allways ran mine pretty stout. If I wanted to plink I took out a 38 or a 44 special. The 454 was a hunting gun. A better choise for many would probably be the 480 or 475. It is just as powerful. Shoots a bigger diameter bullet and both are a lot less finiky to down load. The 454 is kind of like a Ferrari. It wasn't made to go get a loaf of bread at the store it was made to be the most powerful handgun of its time and it did that just fine if it was loaded properly.