High Wall cast loads...

[robtattoo]

Hi there, first post.

I've searched the interweb top to bottom & can't find the answer I need. This seems like the place to ask!

I have a Uberti High Wall in .45-70. It shoots lights out with 405gn jacketed bullets over 4198 but try as I might I cannot get a cast bullet to shoot well. So far I've tried 405s over 4198 & 3031 & 510s over 5744.
Velocities from 1300-1600 & nothing will shoot better than a 4 shot, 8" group at 100yds
I'll be shooting the Mini Quigley next month & have to have a cast load that'll shoot!
I had very high hopes for the 510s, but my best load put 2 touching & 2 off the paper at 3 o'clock & 6 o'clock.
I'm shooting from a solid bench with a rear bag. Soule rear sight & Lyman 17 front.
With this rifle setup, I generally shoot groups under 1½" with RNFB jacketed so I'm 99% that it's not me or the gun.
I've slugged my bore & I'm measuring .458 in the grooves. The boolits I've tried have been Hunters Supply in the 510 & home cast in the 405. all sized to .459
I have some 455gn FPGC to try, but I think I'm not supposed to shoot GC boolits at the Quigley.

Does anyone have any kind of non-bp load I might try!

[Doc Highwall]

What diameter is your expander? Your bullet being only .001 over size might be getting sized down when being seated, especially with a soft alloy giving less then desirable results.

I try to use a expander that is only .001 to .002 smaller then my sized bullet.

Example: My bullets for my 308 are sized .310 to .311 and my expander is .309.

[country gent]

Some things to consider here are as mentioned expander size compared to bullet dia. to tight ad bullets may be sized down also. Pull a bullt and mike it at the base see if its smaller. How hard are the bullets, whata= alloy are they. most shooting black powder or loads in that range use a softer alloy (20-1, 16-1, some 30-1 few use much antmony for these loads). sizing these bullets .001-.002 over bore should be about right. If jacket bullets were used is there copper fouling in the barrel, this can affect cast accuracy as well. Also a change in lube may be helpfull, at lower pressure velocities the harder lubes may not work as well as a softer lube. Fit of the bullet is the biggest thing, is it sized properly for the bore? If nose ridig does the nose fit the barrel lightly snug or little to no wiggle when inserted in the muzzle? Also with cast bullets seating depth can be fussy. just short of engaging the rifling is a good place to start if possible. Into the rifling if you want to use a camming tool to load, a problem here is unchambering a round can leave a ullet stuck in the barrel. Crimp can hurt or help also.

[robtattoo]

The hunters supply are 16/1, the home cast 20/1
The 510s will barely fit the muzzle up to the driving bands, if inserted nose first so a good tight fit there. I haven't tried that with any others to be honest.
As to the expander, that is something I hadn't considered. I'll have to pull my die to measure it. If one of you fine gents happens to know off the top of your heads, it's a standard Lee F/L sizing die. I give all cases a very minimal flare, but the case is tight enough that I can't thumb seat the boolits.
Should I try not resizing my brass for a few loads?

[elk hunter]

Sure sounds like an undersized bullet to me so the expander plug may very well be the culprit. As you suggested try hand seating your bullets in an unsized case and see how they shoot.

[country gent]

You can not size your brass and see. See how the bullets fit in a fired cleaned case they will probably be to loose. A trick used by some is to only size to bullet dia 45-70 has some taper you only running into die partially will size mouth to where you want it. Start at half way point size a case and measure case mouth. move die down 1/2-1 turn and resize and measure, this tells you how much the measured lowering drops mouth dia so you can figure how many increments you need. To start shoot for bullet dia or bullet dia - .0005 and see if that helps. When doing this you cant use the expander unlless its smaller than case mouth. Sizing to bullet dia requires the same lot batch of cases with the same neck wall thickness. With black powder I load a charge and compress to allow bullet to seat to depth and rest solidly on the wads. Bullet tension isnt as important here as powder wad column holds bullet in place. Give cases a good even chamfer on the inside also.

[Doc Highwall]

Another thing about the expander die is the straight cylindrical part of the expander should be as long as the seating depth of the bullet.
148636
Notice the straight section in (A) before the case mouth gets belled, that should be where the base of the bullet is when it is seated.
148637
Notice how long it is on this expander. It is not mine but one that I downloaded the picture just to show what you really need for a proper expander.

[robtattoo]

Looking at the advice I've been given so far, it seems like I may need a different die.
I'm using the Lee 3-die set (F/L, powder-thru expander, seating) & the expander only bells the very top of the case mouth, maybe 1/16".
It doesn't have the long, internal sizing plug as shown in the post above, it's just a round bottom come to flare the mouth. I believe this works more like a pistol die than a rifle die.

I know RCBS makes an expander die, specifically for cast bullets & I think it's worth $27 just to see if it does make a difference.
I just miked a bullet & it's dead on at .459
The inside diameter of a freshly resized case is .4575 so that may very well be the issue (although I honestly would've thought the boolit would obturate by that amount to fill the grooves....)

[robtattoo]

Just wanted to say a huge thanks folks!
The expander die was the problem & I would've never considered it without y'alls help.

I tried a Track of the Wolf .460 expander plug for the Lee dies & went from shooting 20" patterns at 100, to this afternoon putting 22 consecutive shots on a 12" wide by 20" tall plate at 600yds!

[Doc Highwall]

Glad to help!

[tinhorn97062]

The hunters supply are 16/1, the home cast 20/1
The 510s will barely fit the muzzle up to the driving bands, if inserted nose first so a good tight fit there. I haven't tried that with any others to be honest.
As to the expander, that is something I hadn't considered. I'll have to pull my die to measure it. If one of you fine gents happens to know off the top of your heads, it's a standard Lee F/L sizing die. I give all cases a very minimal flare, but the case is tight enough that I can't thumb seat the boolits.
Should I try not resizing my brass for a few loads?

I had issues with cast boolits and the Lee sizing die. I switched to RCBS Cowboy dies (machined with a little extra room) and it solved the issues i was having.