Short Barrel 357Mag Loads

[12DMAX]

Starting to mess around with some EDC loads for my 3" SP101. I am seeing something going on that I cant figure out. I have only 2 powders on hand right now for what I would call magnum loads, 296 and Blue dot and they are pushing a 358156 cast from 50:50 WW/Pure + Tin air cooled. Bluedot is actually pushing this bullet faster than 296. Below I show my findings, everything about the loads is identical except for the powders of course and total shots, all chrony'd on the same day within a 1HR time period.

296 @ 15.5gr

Lo. 1141
Hi. 1199
Av. 1165
Es. 58.2
Sd. 13.78
To. 25

296 @ 16gr

Lo. 1173
Hi. 1238
Av. 1206
Es. 64.23
Sd. 20.68
To. 15

296 @ 16.3gr

Lo. 1216
Hi. 1262
Av. 1245
Es. 45.53
Sd. 15.16
To. 8

B.D. @ 10gr

Lo. 1204
Hi. 1278
Av. 1252
Es. 73.82
Sd. 29.01
To. 8

B.D @ 10.5gr

Lo. 1275
Hi. 1361
Av. 1317
Es. 86.04
Sd.31.19
To. 8

The 16.3gr 296 load grouped at 10yds very very nice, the Blue Dot didn’t group that well at 10gr but at 10.5 it really tightened up. The felt recoil and flash was noticeably less with the Blue Dot. I have only begun this testing, waiting on boolits to cure but the BD really looks promising. In the end my goal is too ship this mould off to be HP'd, load them to MAG velocities and test for expansion/penetration.

[Scharfschuetze]

Looks like a nice project. I don't think that your results are far of from normal for your loads.

I haven't used Blue Dot in years, so I can't comment on any of your results with it. Are you using a magnum primer in both loads or neither. That might make some difference, particularly with the 296 loads. To be honest though, if the Blue Dot loads are grouping better as well as going faster; then I'd probably stick with those. I've always preferred accuracy over velocity and it looks like you might have both with the BD. Although it is marginally less consistent ballistically, it's machts nichts thinks I.

[12DMAX]

Looks like a nice project. I don't think that your results are far of from normal for your loads.

I haven't used Blue Dot in years, so I can't comment on any of your results with it. Are you using a magnum primer in both loads or neither. That might make some difference, particularly with the 296 loads. To be honest though, if the Blue Dot loads are grouping better as well as going faster; then I'd probably stick with those. I've always preferred accuracy over velocity and it looks like you might have both with the BD. Although it is marginally less consistent ballistically, it's machts nichts thinks I.

Yes sir both loads are with Mag primers. I agree the blue dot load velocities i like, as for accuracy this is an EDC gun so 7-10 yard tennis ball groups to POA are a-ok by me although the 296 does group smaller yet. My brass is very clean with the BD load, 296's come out a bit greasy. This very well may all change, expansion/penetration i may need something different.

[Gus Youmans]

12DMAX,

I suspect that more of the 296 is going out the end of the barrel because it is slower than the Blue Dot. I base my guess on the hellacious muzzle flash I get when firing hot .357 Magnum H110/296 loads late in the day - kinda lights things up and gets your attention.

Gus Youmans

[dubber123]

You should be fine with your heavier castings, but other loaders should remember that Alliant warns to not use Blue Dot with 125 grain projectiles. Apparently it does some unpleasant things. Yours I'm guessing run 160+ grains, which they say is ok.

[12DMAX]

12DMAX,

I suspect that more of the 296 is going out the end of the barrel because it is slower than the Blue Dot. I base my guess on the hellacious muzzle flash I get when firing hot .357 Magnum H110/296 loads late in the day - kinda lights things up and gets your attention.

Gus Youmans

Thinking the same gus but i have seen some BIG fireballs from 6" barrels using 296. The nice clean brass from the BD loads i think is telling me all the pressure is going forward out the barrel, the greasy brass from the 296 loads probably are not sealing as well and some of the pressure is moving rearward.


Yours I'm guessing run 160+ grains, which they say is ok.


Correct, 161 with check and lube.

[gray wolf]

As a side note you may want to Re-think tennis ball groups for a carry gun.

Those 3 " groups under stress can easily get to 6-7 inches and that's not to great.

Specially coming out of a holster. 7 yards shooting relaxed I try for and insist on 1" to 1 1/4" groups.

Just the little stress of a timer or shooting and moving will open them up.

No slam--just saying

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're getting 1300fps + with 10.5 grs of Blue Dot out of a 3" barrel and a 161 +/- grain SWC, I'd say you're doing well and call it a day.

That SP101 is a great gun (one of my favorites). Plenty strong and very durable. On top of those attributes, you seemed to have found a load that gun likes.

I don't shoot that many magnum loads but when I do, H110/296 is my go-to powder, however; out of a 3" barrel a faster powder is probably going to work better. It appears your tests back that up. I'd be interested in what some other fast powders could accomplish in that gun but frankly, I'd be very happy with 1300+fps with a 161 grain bullet.

[12DMAX]

If you're getting 1300fps + with 10.5 grs of Blue Dot out of a 3" barrel and a 161 +/- grain SWC, I'd say you're doing well and call it a day.

That SP101 is a great gun (one of my favorites). Plenty strong and very durable. On top of those attributes, you seemed to have found a load that gun likes.

I don't shoot that many magnum loads but when I do, H110/296 is my go-to powder, however; out of a 3" barrel a faster powder is probably going to work better. It appears your tests back that up. I'd be interested in what some other fast powders could accomplish in that gun but frankly, I'd be very happy with 1300+fps with a 161 grain bullet.

Well i went and bought another mold so I will be testing some more. I do like the load, it is more controllable than the 296.

[Petrol & Powder]

Carry On :drinks:

[Motor]

I agree the slower 296 is very likely being burned in the air in front of the muzzle.

I'm using 10gr of Blue Dot with a Lee powder coated 158gr SWC in .357 It doesn't feel like a very hot load and is rather nice shooting even from a small revolver like my Rossi 917.

Motor

[12DMAX]

I agree the slower 296 is very likely being burned in the air in front of the muzzle.

I'm using 10gr of Blue Dot with a Lee powder coated 158gr SWC in .357 It doesn't feel like a very hot load and is rather nice shooting even from a small revolver like my Rossi 917.

Motor

Only down fall to BD when i am near, at or beyond max is it doesnt play nice with my powder thrower, i trickle every load. I like 800x also for other apps, may look into one of them elect. powder dispensers.

[Motor]

I'm using a RCBS Uniflow with small drum. Lyman says 9.5 start and 10.5 max with a 158gr SWC so I choose 10gr. Even if I get +/- 2 or 3 tenths which normally I get better than, I'm not worrying.

I shoot either a 8" diameter swinger at 30 yards or a 12"x12" at 50 yards. I don't have any problems hitting either one. :)

I have a Chargemaster 1500 but it will be a cold day in he** before I use it for pistol ammo.
Motor

[Petrol & Powder]

If I was loading with an eye towards a high number of practice cartridges, I would seek a powder that meters well and gives good performance. A vast majority of my 38 Special rounds are loaded with powders that get along well with powder measures such as 231, Bullseye and CFE Pistol. However, if I was producing a limited number of high velocity rounds for self defense use; I'd be OK with weighing each charge.
I think the OP has found an excellent combination for his short barreled .357 magnum. If he can find another load that comes close to those same results with a powder that meters well, he may one step closer to that reloaders nirvana we all seek.

[Sean357]

Thanks for posting this! I was planning on picking up some 296 to work up some loads for my 3" sp101. Now I'll be looking for Bluedot instead.

[12DMAX]

I'm using a RCBS Uniflow with small drum. Lyman says 9.5 start and 10.5 max with a 158gr SWC so I choose 10gr. Even if I get +/- 2 or 3 tenths which normally I get better than, I'm not worrying.

I shoot either a 8" diameter swinger at 30 yards or a 12"x12" at 50 yards. I don't have any problems hitting either one. :)

I have a Chargemaster 1500 but it will be a cold day in he** before I use it for pistol ammo.
Motor


I like to compare apples to apples and dabble on the other side some so + matters.




If I was loading with an eye towards a high number of practice cartridges, I would seek a powder that meters well and gives good performance. A vast majority of my 38 Special rounds are loaded with powders that get along well with powder measures such as 231, Bullseye and CFE Pistol. However, if I was producing a limited number of high velocity rounds for self defense use; I'd be OK with weighing each charge.
I think the OP has found an excellent combination for his short barreled .357 magnum. If he can find another load that comes close to those same results with a powder that meters well, he may one step closer to that reloaders nirvana we all seek.


I use alot of 2400 just out right now. Accurate powders are non existent in my area. I switch between my 357 and 45 for EDC, i shoot/practice heavy and fast with these guns. Trickling powder is time consuming BUT that chargemaster has got my attention!




Thanks for posting this! I was planning on picking up some 296 to work up some loads for my 3" sp101. Now I'll be looking for Bluedot instead.


Your welcome. More testing coming, need a bit more cure time.

[dougader]

I've been using Blue Dot since about 1989 or so. I like it in 357 mag, 9mm and 45 auto/45 super.

It can get squirrely at max, especially in cold weather. I'd go back and work up your load when the freezing weather comes back, especially if you plan on using a load for personal defense.

I also say to use standard primers with BD. I've seen spikes in pressure when using magnum primers.

Accurate no. 9 is another powder to look at for short barreled 357s.

BTW, great workup and data. Much appreciated.

[12DMAX]

I've been using Blue Dot since about 1989 or so. I like it in 357 mag, 9mm and 45 auto/45 super.

It can get squirrely at max, especially in cold weather. I'd go back and work up your load when the freezing weather comes back, especially if you plan on using a load for personal defense.

I also say to use standard primers with BD. I've seen spikes in pressure when using magnum primers.

Accurate no. 9 is another powder to look at for short barreled 357s.

BTW, great workup and data. Much appreciated.


Thank you, I will keep my eye on things when the temps drop. Here in Pa it can get cold but i think the gun at my side and speed strips in my pockets aught a keep things warm enough. I would like to try #9 as well as #7 for sure but those powders ( Accurate ) are just not found around here, Alliant-IMR-Hogdon are the mains. Now i do have access to longshot from some buds but not sure its going to do better than BD. I am really impressed with the velocities and the condition of my brass with the BD's. Thanks for the compliment, I am all new to this cast boolit thing but sure find it addicting! Once I have somewhat of a grasp on all things lead I really want to mess around with making black powder.

[12DMAX]

More testing yesterday with the Blue Dot loads and some HP's. First attempt at casting and shooting HP's so ALL criticism welcome!

Nothing scientific here just milk jugs and water. I used ACWW + 2% tin as a starting point and loaded them over 10.5gr Blue Dot, didn’t bother with the chrony figuring i am in and around 1200fps. I only had enough jugs for a cylinder full, all the rounds looked the same as the one in the photo. Boolits all recovered from #4 jug. I have done some reading on this and I am concluding ( scary ) my alloy is to hard? not malleable enough? I am going to load some more of these but bring my velocity down and see. Cast up some using the original 50/50 recipe above. What say you?

[Rodfac]

Nice work, 12DMAX. I've had good luck and great accuracy with Skelton's old load: 158 gr Lyman 358156 gc backed by 13.5 gr of 2400. It does have some muzzle flash, and kicks a bit, but is a good woods loafin' load. The gun was a S&W M60 with a 3" bbl.

The alloy is WW with 2% tin added, sized 0.360", lubed with 50-50 plus a swirl lube with LLA or 45-45-10. I chrono'd it at 1094 fps with an ES of 23 fps from that 3" bbl. Groups with a two-handed modified Weaver Stance run less than an inch from 12 yds, slow fire, single action. No leading.

It's not an all day plinking load from that gun, believe me, but is very authoritative for most purposes. I use it in the Smith and also a Ruger Flat Top .357 as a back up/finishing round while deer hunting here in KY. I finished a good sized buck for a neighbor's son last season. Penetration was through the spine from back to front with complete penetration...exit was quarter sized.

Rod

[DiamondD]

My first carry gun was the same 3" SP 101. I used some form of 158 grain factory loads but can't remember which. The gun shot right to POA with the 158s, not even close with 125s. I haven't carried or even shot that gun in years but I may have to dig it out and mess with it some. I really like the SP 101 and would like to find a bobbed hammer like they had for the 2 1/4" barreled guns to put on my 3". I may just have my gunsmith cut the current hammer.

[Forrest r]

More testing yesterday with the Blue Dot loads and some HP's. First attempt at casting and shooting HP's so ALL criticism welcome!

Nothing scientific here just milk jugs and water. I used ACWW + 2% tin as a starting point and loaded them over 10.5gr Blue Dot, didn’t bother with the chrony figuring i am in and around 1200fps. I only had enough jugs for a cylinder full, all the rounds looked the same as the one in the photo. Boolits all recovered from #4 jug. I have done some reading on this and I am concluding ( scary ) my alloy is to hard? not malleable enough? I am going to load some more of these but bring my velocity down and see. Cast up some using the original 50/50 recipe above. What say you?

You'll find that it's not your alloy, it's a mechanical thing, namely the size/shape/depth of the hp for the velocities your using. I cast/test/shoot that same Mihec 158gr hp. The mihec 158gr hp is at it's best in the 800fps to 1050fps range with the same alloy your using. Some hp's that I cast and swage for the 38spl and 357's.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg.html)

I also make my own hp pins to test different size holes (smaller) along with different depths (deeper/shallower). Along with making my own swaging dies and nose forming dies with differernt hp desgns for cast and jacketed bullets. As you can see in the picture above of the 7 cast bullets, the mihec has the largest hp.
Top row left to right:
158gr swaged xtp/158gr mihec/140gr 358477hp/158gr 358429hp/150gr 358156hp
Bottom row left to right:
150gr h&g #51hp/cramer 25a 158gr hp (hunter)/cramer 26 150gr hp

Out of all those bullets pictured above, the cramer 25a (hunter) has a hp that's designed for the 357/high velocities. That small round & shallow hp is designed so that when the hp opens there's more material/thicker where it counts, where the bullets body meets the flattened hp. In my limited amount of testing cast and swaged hp's over the last couple of decades I've found that anything over 1200fps in a 38spl/357 is starting to push the envelope with the common hp designs and alloys. That's why a shallow "cupped" hp does better at higher velocities. And when the velocities start getting to 1300fps and above I tend to switch over to a solid nosed bullet. But that's just me.

A little reading on testing different hp'd bullets along with the alloys they used and the velocities they tested those different alloys at. The tests are documented with allot of pictures of their findings/results.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

Enjoy and be safe with that bluedot.