Help me sort out my new 45-70...

[Harry O]

This is an 1867 Remington Rolling Block action that was cleaned up, case-hardened, and mated to a 28" lightweight 45-70 barrel. This is my first big-bore black-powder cartridge. The first time I tried it, the sights were way off and the bullets acted like they were undersized. The Lee 405gr hollow-base bullets did not do too bad, but the EVERY one of the sample "Big Lube" bullets I tried went into the target sideways.

I made a new (much shorter) front sight and offset it to one side. Then I loaded up some unsized (0.460") Lee 405gr hollow-base bullets with SPG lube. The case was filled (with slight compression) with Swiss FFFg BP dropped through a 30" drop tube. And, magnum primers.

When I got to the range today, the height was perfect at 25 yards and about 3-4" to the right of the aiming point (fired from a clean barrel). When I got home, I drifted the front sight a little more and shimmed the tang sight the other way. Should be even closer next time.

I checked the barrel after the first shot and the fouling looked moist. The next shot was about 6" right of the first one. Again, the fouling looked moist. The next shot was 2-3" more to the right and a little higher. At five shots, it was a full foot to the right of the first shot and a few inches high. In addition, the last shot was a perfect side view of the bullet punched through the paper. Looking back, I could see that the yawing was possibly first visible at the third shot, but certainly it was visible on the fourth shot. It did not just appear on the last shot.

I cleaned the bore. The next shot was straight on and very close to the first shot.

I started cleaning the bore after each shot. Got some good groups that way. To make sure it was not a fluke, I fired the last 5 rounds without cleaning. Results were the same as the first 5 shots. This is not what I want to do. I would like to get reasonable accuracy for 5 shots between cleaning.

Any suggestions? If it need a different lube, it has to be something I can buy immediately instead of waiting until the next equinox to brew up some -- not to mention the difficulty of getting fresh "eye of newt" or any of the other ingredients.

[13Echo]

Well you could make a blow tube to hydrate the fouling between shots. If you have a good burning load that should easily get you 10 shots. Works nicely in my 45-90. It would also help to know the twist rate, actual groove diameter, the bullet diameter and alloy, lube, how much powder, compression, etc. As you are discovering black powder is different from smokeless.

A blow tube is made from a fired case with the head drilled out to take a length of tubing. After firing slip the case into the chamber and exhale several, slow, deep breaths through the tube. The moisture in your breath will hydrate and soften the fouling and allow multiple shots before needing to punch the tube. The number of breaths depends on the weather. The hotter and dryer the more breaths that are required.

Jerry Liles

Jerry LIles

[405]

Well, you're experiencing what most experience when shooting BPCR without cleaning/wiping between shots. Usually you have enough lube if after firing a shot you can see or smear the "lube star" off the muzzle. Adding a super secret special lube can't help much if other things are not working right. You can study the "duplexing thread" and see about that possibility.

As far as the unstable bullets.... Seems that is also a common theme on the site. A few things to check..... slug the bore and get at least the groove diameter. That will give you a starting point on what size the bullets need to be. I'd start at groove diameter for the bullet diameter no matter the BHN. Then try up to .002 over. Next I'd take a look at the twist in that barrel. If it is slow then you may have to go with lighter, shorter bullets. I know everyone wants to shoot 540+ gr bullets out to 1000 yards right off the bat but reality soon catches up :mrgreen:

After that....the "eye of newt" is followed by "wing of bat".... if that doesn't work then throw in some "toe of frog" :)

[chuebner]

Sounds like a fouling problem to me. Blow tubing between shots is a common practice and I've found that three long steady breaths seem to keep my fouling manageable. You may want to try another lube also. No disrespect to Steve Garbe but his SPG lube is over-rated and overly expensive. Simple 50/50 beeswax/olive oil works just as well. Getting a 45-70 to shoot well with black can be maddening. Been there, done that, still have the knots on my head to prove it.

Charlie

[Don McDowell]

Scrap the magnum primers and just go with standard large rifle. Drop the powder charge to 65 grs of the 3f, and groups will likely tighten up. Get a .030 fiber wad between the powder and the bullet.
Sounds like the bore of your rifle is telling you it wants to be wiped between shots to get the best of accuracy.

[Boz330]

You might try 2F or even 1 1/2F, Swiss tends to be a little finer per granulation. Like Don said on the primer and you might try a newspaper disc over the primer hole or possibly a pistol primer. Swiss seems to like a really soft primer ignition.
You might check your twist as well. To find out if there is enough moisture in your fowling, run a dry patch down the bore, it should go through with minimal effort. If you have to beat on the rod, you need more moisture.
If you aren't going to shoot competition and don't want to deal with the fowling, try a duplex load as someone else pointed out. It definately makes a difference.

Good luck
Bob

[Harry O]

Some additional info. No, I have not tried a blow tube. Will have to give it a try. I have had hard fouling in the past (in a 38-40) and this did not look the same. However, it very definitely did not have a lube star on the front of the muzzle.

The bore was slugged when I first got it and I thought it measured 0.457". I am not so sure now. My first bullets were sized at 0.458" and they all acted like they were undersized. That is why I went to the unsized 0.460" bullets. They acted a lot better. I will measure the rest of the "Big Lube" sample bullets and see if they are large enough to try without sizing.

I have not measured the rifling, but from the look, it looks like it has plenty of twist. I will measure it. I may be wrong, but I don't think the bullets were unstable -- until they bore got dirty, anyway. With a clean bore, it appeared the the bullets were piercing the target straight on. It was only when it got dirty that they started keyholing.

My experience with the 41 Long Colt is that putting a card, wad, lube or anything else on the base of a hollow-base bullet is bad, bad, bad. I won't be trying that, but if the Big Lube bullets are big enough to try, I might load a wad between the bullet and the powder on that.

[JerryW]

Who made the bbl? Twist rate? JerryW

[Don McDowell]

The bore was slugged when I first got it and I thought it measured 0.457". I am not so sure now. My first bullets were sized at 0.458" and they all acted like they were undersized. That is why I went to the unsized 0.460" bullets. They acted a lot better. I will measure the rest of the "Big Lube" sample bullets and see if they are large enough to try without sizing.

My experience with the 41 Long Colt is that putting a card, wad, lube or anything else on the base of a hollow-base bullet is bad, bad, bad. I won't be trying that, but if the Big Lube bullets are big enough to try, I might load a wad between the bullet and the powder on that.

Well here's the deal that lee bullet isn't an especially bp friendly bullet, mostly it reallly doesn't carry enough lube. The only bullet lee has that works somewhat ok with bp is the 500 3r and then it runs into stability problems at distance, especially beyond 500 yds.
Second your shooting 2-3 times more powder than you could ever stuff in the Colt cartridge, so blowby is going to be a fact and problem with any unprotected bullet base.
If you're going to continue to use that bullet with bp you'ld be well advised to fill the base of the thing with lube, and use a wad. You need a wad of somekind underneath to keep from blowing the skirts off even if you decide not to use the extra lube.

[405]

Harry,
Troubleshooting these is always tough. Just start at the simplest, easiest and least expensive and work thru it. As far as standard twist rates I think anything from 18" to 22" will be ok. I think the stardard twist for the 45-70 trapdoors ranged 20"-22" and it was demonstrated that twist range would stabilize the 500 gr RN Govt. round at the Sandy Hooks trials. Won't cost a thing to check.

I also don't have any experience with the Lee HB bullets. Their outside appearance and design looks good.

BPCR is always unknown territory to start. I have a few lumps and scars DOH! DOH! DOH! from several trials over the years at getting some of them to shoot right.

Cleaning between shots will cure the fouling issue but it is always good to get to a point where the shots will "settle" between the foulers and the time to clean- maybe 10-20 shots is about what most strive for.

I like Don's idea of reducing the charge and protecting the base with a card wad. You could even reduce the charge more by a adding a couple of .060" fiber wads. Might even try good ole GOEX FF. Since I have no experience with the Lee HB... don't know how the base will react to the wads when fired??? Worth a try though. Any plain base bullet of softer alloy has a really tough time getting out the bore in good shape regardless of the load. The base integrity problems with plain base bullets added to the softer alloy "running" over accumulated fouling and...... it's a wonder sometimes how accurate they can be and no wonder when they are inaccurate. Without cleaning between shots there is no way to eliminate the fouling so the idea with the soft BP lube and the blow tubing is to keep the fouling as soft as possible. Good luck

[montana_charlie]

It appears that your groups are spread horizontally, and I usually attribute that (when wind is not a fctor) to problems in holding the rifle. But, your observance of keyholing, and the fact that bore cleaning appears to 'collect' the groups leads me back to the same question about 'fouling' that everybody else is focused on.

I have read posts by experienced shooters...guys who had their 'pet loads' all worked out...who decided to try 3F powder to see what happens.
At least half of them mentioned it being 'dirtier' than their normal charges.

If you don't have a barrel leading problem, you might just be using too 'dirty' a powder charge. Try some 2F.

CM

[Don McDowell]

3f burns hotter than 2, and the more pressure generated in bp the less the fouling . If fouling is a big problem its usually due to powder charge to low,IF A GOOD BULLET AND BP LUBE ARE USED.
From chrono tests from my rifles 65 grs of 3f will generally give real close to the same velocity as 70 grs of 2f.

Also if that barrel is new and not wearing a particularly good finish on the inside getting good bp groups can be a headbanger until the barrel finally gets smoothed up some.

[13Echo]

OK, I'll add my Nickle's worth.

The 45-70 is, perhaps, the best and easiest cartridge to learn about black powder. Possibly the best bullet is the Govt 1881 which is the 500gr round nose. Lyman's version is the 457125. SAECO's 881 bullet is a near perfect copy. Both are good shooting bullets. The Lee 405gr hollow base is a copy of the Govt 1873 bullet and it can also be a shooter.

A good starting load is a duplication of the arsenal loads. For the 1881 that is 70grs of FFg compressed to allow seating the bullet to cover the grease grooves. A crimp over the front driving band is optional. I use bullets cast from 30:1 alloy with a good BP lube, and SPG is a good lube, with a single waxpaper wad. Bullets are pan lubed. The load is accurate from my Trapdoor and a friends Shiloh. For the Lee bullet I use a close copy of the arsenal carbine load - 59grs of FFg compressed to allow seating the bullet with a firm crimp over the front driving band. I do not use a wad with the hollow base. Just make very certain the bottom skirt and base of the bullet are clean. With this bullet, at least in the Trapdoors, the crimp seems to be necessary. This load cuts cloverleaf groups from Bo's 1884 rifle. With your rifle's modern barrel The Lee may cast large (mine goes .460") and it might need sizing to .458" or .459". I don't size either version of the 1881.

That should get you started. Then you can branch out to improve target accuracy with varying seating depth, neck tension, lubes, alloys, and try other bullets such as the Postel and the various "Creeedmoor" designs and the numerous hunting designs such as the Gould hollow point. Endless combinations and permutations present themselves.

Jerry Liles

[Harry O]

Got some more information. The "Big Lube" bullets probably won't work. They measure 0.458".

I measured the twist and think that it may be part of the problem. It measures about one turn in 32" (the barrel is only 28" long and it did not quite go all the way around). I do not know the maker. It came with the action. I have checked the catalogs I have (Dixie, Track-of-the-Wolf" etc) and see that they have some of them that twist for BP cartridge guns. However, most "higher volume" places carry them in the 18" to 24" range.

It is faster than the muzzle loading ones, though. They seem to run 48" to 60". I may try a lighter bullet. Something for a .45 LC at about 250-280gr that drops at 0.460". Anybody have a mould like that?

I don't have any Swiss in anything other than 3F. I do have GOEX in 2F though. Don't have an Fg at all. Can give 2F a try.

[Harry O]

PS: The Lee boolits are cast at 40:1. I can go harder with plain-base bullets.

[August]

Wrong bullet.

Get a 500+ grain that carries more lube. You can wipe or blow but you just don't have enough lube.

[twotrees]

This weekend we had a BP shoot and one fellow with severial 45-70's was having a problem with groups. At 300 yards ALL his boolits were going in side ways.

He is using commercial hard cast and we asked about his expander plug. He is using a custom .458 expander so that should not be the problem. NOT

His brass is being over sized in his die and the 458 expander id moving it out, but brass is springy and comes back down. I measured his loaded rounds and got .477 outside, wall thickness was .012 (X2= .024) .477-.024= .453 !!!! shoot a .453 slug down a .458 (Badger bbl) and you get undersized boolits coming out all west and crooked.

Anneal your brass first!!! Size only to hold the boolit, and make sure your getting a case that will slip fit your boolit with out much pressure. Mine will go in the case and come out under finger pressure and get a LIGHT crimp when fully loaded.

Check your dies. I had to buy 2 sets to get one that sized big enough. Now one set is for BP the other for white powder and "J" word boolits.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

[montana_charlie]

Got some more information. The "Big Lube" bullets probably won't work. They measure 0.458".

I measured the twist and think that it may be part of the problem. It measures about one turn in 32".
While bullet diameter is always important, your problem might come more from bullet length. The last time I saw a picture of a Big Lube, it seemed like a pretty long bullet.

A twist as slow as 1 in 32 may limit you to the 300-ish grain .458"-.460" bullets.

I'm surprised that anybody would chamber a barrel for .45/70 which had been cut like that.
CM

[Larry Gibson]

I agree with Montana Charlie, With that twist you are limited to 250-300 (maybe 350 gr) bullets. I'd ask someone who has a Lyman Gould 457122 HP 330 gr mould if they'd cast you up some with 1-20 alloy. I'd pan lube them with SPG or the bee's wax/olive oil lube (that's what I use at a 5-4 mix) and shoot as cast over 70 - 80 gr of FFFG or Goex Cartridge with a .003" fiber wad under the bullet. Seat so the case mouth just covers the last lube groove. Lots of 45-70 BP hunters use this bullet and it shoots very well with BP. I'd cast some for you but I let my 457122 mould go with a rifle some years back (fool for letting both of them go!). The RCBS 45-325-FN-U might work also.

With that twist you are stuck with the lightest bullets for the 45-70. You might also try the lighter bullets with smokelss loads to see how they shoot. Then switch to BP as the smokeless accuracy will give you a good yardstick to measure the performance of the BP loads by. 11-13 gr of Unique is a good load for the 300-350 gr cast bullets in 45-70s.

Larry Gibson

[Jon K]

Harry O,

I can cast you some 20:1 Saeco #015 300 gr boolits(.459). They weigh 310 gr in WW/Lino alloy, probably 315 or so in 20:1.

PM me your address, if you want some samples.

Jon

[Harry O]

John K: Thanks for the offer. PM on its way.

Looks like I have a 45-70 "Express" rifle. Didn't plan it that way, but it may be a blessing. Lighter bullets -- less recoil.

I am curious about the "Track of the Wolf" catalog that lists a 45cal 32" twist barrel for BP cartridge, particularly the Sharps. I wonder if that is for the 45-90 or up to the 45-120? Also wonder if the slower twist is meant for BP? I seem to remember reading somewhere that tighter twists were worse with BP than with smokeless.

Looks like I have some work to do. Don't think it is impossible, however.

[montana_charlie]

I am curious about the "Track of the Wolf" catalog that lists a 45cal 32" twist barrel for BP cartridge, particularly the Sharps.
You'll need to post a link to that barrel at TOTW.

I just looked through their (online) selection and could not find a barrel like you described.
All of the 45/70 types were either 1 in 20, or 1 in 18 inches.
CM

[Don McDowell]

I wonder if that is for the 45-90 or up to the 45-120? Also wonder if the slower twist is meant for BP? I seem to remember reading somewhere that tighter twists were worse with BP than with smokeless.

Looks like I have some work to do. Don't think it is impossible, however.

Most of us shooting 45's in bpcr are shooting 18 twist, some few are still shooting 20, and the paper patch boys are starting to migrate towards 16 twist barrels. And those guys are fiddlin with smokeless or duplex nonsense they're shooting black and nothing but black.

Lyman has several offerings of light weight bullets that should work in your rifle. I'm of the mind that if you got into a decent 405 gr solid base bullet sized right for your barrel some decent accuracy could be had.

[Harry O]

Sorry, but I don't have a webpage. I have a catalog that I got from them several years ago when I visited their shop up in Minnesota. I see that they also have several pistol caliber barrels (38-40, 44-40, and 45LC) up to 40:1. Looks like a light bullet is the way to go.

[madcaster]

Is it Green Mountain Barrels?
http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/

[Harry O]

Harry O,

I can cast you some 20:1 Saeco #015 300 gr boolits(.459). They weigh 310 gr in WW/Lino alloy, probably 315 or so in 20:1.

PM me your address, if you want some samples.

Jon

Jon, they got here today. Thanks. They look great and are probably (from the discussion here) exactly what I need. They are already pan lubed. I will load up some tomorrow.

I am thinking of trying two loads. A few with the bullet and lube as is and Trail Boss powder. I also intend to load up most of them with 2F Goex BP, a couple of fiber discs under the bullet and a lube wad between them. If either one works, that mould will be the first thing I order.

After I can get to the range, I will let everyone know what happened.

[WBH]

If you are going to do any serious work with that rifle.......re-barrel it to a 1:18-20.
My opinion is that the lighter bullets will only dissappoint you. You are trying to make a poor barrel choice work by using a poorer bullet choice for LR BP shooting.
The lightest bullet I use is a 420 grain large meplat Paul Jones custom mould out to 300 yards. The heaviest is a 550 grain Lyman 457132 both in 20:1. Both are plain base and I use a .060" veggie card under each. Swiss 1 1/2 and CCI 200 primers. I have had some great groups from 27.5 grains of 5744 also.
Just my 2 cents.

[Don McDowell]

Was browsing thru some old Ideal reloading handbooks, and interestingly enough the 45-90 winchester had a 32 inch twist.

[floodgate]

Don:

That was because it was marketed as an "express" cartridge, and the very short, light (by .45-70 standards) 300 gr. bullet could be stabilized with that slow twist at the high (for Black Powder) 1480 fps. velocity it was launched at. When loaded as a .45-2-1/4" (Sharps, etc.,) or 45-80-400 they used a faster twist, to stabilize the longer, lower velocity bullet. With its longer case (3-1/4") and even higher velocity (well over 1500 fps.), the .45-125 Winchester in the Hi-Wall using the same bullet had a 1:36" twist, according to the ca. 1895 Ideal Handbook No. 6.

floodgate

[Don McDowell]

Floodgate, also in the older Ideal handbooks they list the 405 gr bullet for the 45-90. So it wouldn't hurt to try a good 405 gr bullet in the rifle in question here. I've seen some guys shooting trapdoors with 405 gr bullets and doing pretty fair at smackin 800 yd buffalo steel.

[Harry O]

I want to thank everyone for their suggestions (and especially for the 310gr bullets).

However, what others shoot and what I shoot are are sometimes different things. The "need" to go to a heavy bullet for long distance is not a need to me. The longest range I have access to is 200 yards and most of them are 100 yards. Talking about accuracy at 300 or 500 yards is not an issue.

In addition, I have shot a "traditional" 45-70 RB (that means a small buttstock with a lot of drop and a steel buttplate) with heavy bullets and DO NOT have any desire to do it again. Light bullets are a plus as long as they are accurate up to 100 yards.

The only reason I want to do it in BP is I have a lot of it and my RB is built on an original 1867 receiver. I don't want to bend it with maximum loads. I think that the light bullet and an extra lube wad under the bullet will make a big difference. I should know in a week or two.

[floodgate]

Don:

Yes, but the 405-gr. bullet may not stabilize well in the 32" twist, except at the very top safe smokeless velocities. The "Trapdoors" have a much faster twist, at 1:22", which will stabilize even the 500-gr. bullet.

Fg

[Don McDowell]

Harry with those lite bullets you may need a lube cookie to help with the fouling . Sometimes lite bullets tend to allow alot of fouling in the throat on account of the lower pressures. Going to 3f might help with the keep the fouling down.
I shot some 350 gr fp from the lyman mold for the 45-75 the other day, and was pleasantly suprised how well they were shooting to 225 yds from my rifle. Loaded with 70 grs of cartridge and a .030 wad they shot pretty good with not as much fouling as I expected. I did have to use a bit more sight staff than I do with the 530 tho.:mrgreen: I am thinking those 350's might be a good offhand bullet.

Anyway hoping you get some good shooting with that rifle.

[Don McDowell]

Don:

Yes, but the 405-gr. bullet may not stabilize well in the 32" twist, except at the very top safe smokeless velocities. The "Trapdoors" have a much faster twist, at 1:22", which will stabilize even the 500-gr. bullet.

Fg

[smilie=1:Yup knew all that already long long time ago.:roll: Matter of fact an 84 trapdoor will do a pretty fair job of shooting the postell even at 1000 yds. Know that cuz I've done it.:drinks:

Point being if you go back and LOOK and read Harry's first post he was getting fair results with the lee 405 hb bullet, so long as he wiped between shots.
My stance all along has been that by scrapping the magnum primer, and using a wad under that bullet groups might tighten up quite a bit. By going to a flat base bullet sized at .002 over groove and a .030 wad accuracy might not be to bad at all.

[montana_charlie]

Point being if you go back and LOOK and read Harry's first post he was getting fair results with the lee 405 hb bullet, so long as he wiped between shots.
I think most everybody LOOKED at the original results. The main difference is what each 'looker' saw.
You saw 'pretty fair results', if he wiped every time.

I don't know how liberal you tend to get in describing a 'pretty fair group'.
If my 100 yd. group starts to spread out to three or four inches, I will get back to wiping (or tubing) with religion.

But Harry O's 'fair results' with the 405 grain bullets were those groups that were less than a foot wide...at 25 yards...and could only be produced with ceaseless wiping.

What this 'looker' saw was a bullet that was on the verge of stability, that could only be kept going straight ahead if it was fired from a clean barrel. That bullet doesn't seem worth spending much time on, once we learned how slow his rifling turns.
CM

[Don McDowell]

MC you miss the last paragraph where he said, "got good groups wiping between shots"?

Yes a liter bullet would likely work somewhat better. But the "good groups" bit gives me the thoughts that there may be something to be done with the 405 gr weight .
But as he isn't shooting any thing past off hand distance a 300 gr bullet will likely suffice.
Still would recommend scrapping the magnum primer stuff with black, and especially 3f blackpowder.

[Harry O]

Just so there is no misunderstanding, the "pretty good groups wiping between shots" was 1" to 1-1/2" at 25 yards from a rest. Not great, but OK for a new gun I was sorting out. I would expect it to get better when I find a load that it likes. The bad groups were the ones without wiping that were a full foot wide (but about 3" high).

[WBH]

The bad groups were the ones without wiping that were a full foot wide (but about 3" high).
There is some serious problem here. A man could throw a bullet in a one foot circle at 25 yards.

Twist, bullet and lube "might" be your problem. But it is hard to imagine that the twist you have will ever work for you.

[Don McDowell]

Harry hows the trigger pull on that rifle? Alot of those old buggers are heavy pull buggers, changing out the trigger spring will often times help. Lonestar sells a replacement spring that'll drop the pull drastically , and for 15$ is money well spent.
Winchester offered along with the 300 gr 4590 , a 45-85 and a 45-82 which were 350 gr and 405 gr loads for the same rifle. I'ld expect you should be able to find a good accurate load with the right bullet. Which brings another question? have you cast or otherwise measured the chamber to be sure it is infact a 45-70 and not a 90?
If the rifling on that barrel is pretty shallow wiping between shots with bp may just be a fact of life, as the bullet is likely stripping the grooves if they're not very deep and already filled with bp fouling.

[Harry O]

The trigger pull is not too bad. Fairly heavy (not TOOO heavy) and smooth with a crisp letoff. I also believe I will find a good load for it. This discussion has pointed me toward lighter bullets. The rifling does not look that shallow, but if that is a problem I can harden the bullet.

I just got done loading up some with the 310gr bullets I was given, unsized (0.359", SPG lube in the grooves, two fiber discs under the bullet with 1/8" of lube between them, and a case full of GOEX FFg. That should give me enough lube to get a star on the muzzle.

I will load up some with Trail Boss tomorrow or the next day. Just the lube in the grooves for that one. I will see if either works.

The fact that the original groups were so bad without wiping between shots tells me that there was hard fouling. The fact that they were not too bad when I wiped between shots tells me that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the gun. I just have to find out what load the gun wants.

[Don McDowell]

Well keep us informed as to how the thing treats you.
One thing about rifles like this one, they're alot more fun and a challenge to get them to shoot, than something that just shoots about anything you dump thru it.

[Boz330]

Well keep us informed as to how the thing treats you.
One thing about rifles like this one, they're alot more fun and a challenge to get them to shoot, than something that just shoots about anything you dump thru it.

I don't know about that Don, sometimes all that fun can be frustrating.:roll:

Harry, Lyman has a mold for a 292gr slug as well. I forget the number. I'd offer to send you some but I sold the mold a while back. That would be a perfect candidate for that slow twist.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

yes lots of frustration, but fun is in the challenge.
I only ever gave up on one gun, it was a Ruger Blackhawk in 357, it's now a much more useful thing as it turned out it needed to be a 5 inch 44 special to be happy.

[Harry O]

Looks like there were a bunch of 45-70 bullets in the 285 to 330gr range. Wonder if there were more slow twist rates in the past?

457122 ** 330gr
457131 ** 285gr
457191 ** 292gr
457196 ** 290gr

There are also an equal number of ones in the 200 to 285gr range. A few are weird "collar button" types, but there are a couple that looks like regular bullets, except a little shorter. If this one works out, I will be on the lookout for one of them.