A ? on 45 Colt/Schofield - cast boolits & crimp

[bedbugbilly]

I'm new to the 45 Colt/Schofield cartridge and have a question on crimp.

I'm loading for SAA (Uberti & possibly Ruger BH). I'll be loading both smokeless & BP. Revolver only - no lever or SS long gun.

I am casting from two molds. First is the traditional Ideal 454-190 and the other an Ideal 452-260 (200 gr).

Yes, I now - straight walled = roll crimp which I "usually follow" with the exception on my 38 Colt Shorts where I use a 9mm taper crimp - they work just fine and no bullet jump. And on all of my different 38/357 cast boolit designs - i.e. 358-311, -242, etc. it's easy to roll crimp into the top groove and maintain COAL.

On the 45 Colt though - I have a hundred or so 1X fired plus a supply of 45 LC Starline brass. I don't have the figures with me now but both fell below the maximum case length (and none have been trimmed).

For dies - I'm using a "hodge podge" for want of a better description. I have an older set of Lyman dies - the de-capping/FL sizer was "steel" so picked up a good used Lyman carbide FL die - works just fine. I also have several RCBS dies (older) and the seating die is a tad shorter than the Lyman so figure I will dedicate that one to the shorter Schofield casings.

On both of my cast boolits - the -190 and the -460 - when seated to the recommended cartridge overall length, the lip of the casing is above the top lube groove - at or just above the top ring. In reading the notes on the 45 Long in my Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook 3rd edition - it states that it might be necessary to crimp in this area.

I seat and crimp in two operations. The Lyman seating/crimp die seems to work well - it takes the bell out and puts a moderate roll crimp on the lip - sort of conforming to the profile of raw base of the nose just above the top ring. The same thing is necessary when I seat the - 460 boolit. When done - they measure out to be within SAAMI specs as shown in the Lyman handbook.

My questions about crimp is this . . . .

I have good neck tension on the boolits when seated. I'm loading "light to moderate" loads - won't be "pushing" any of them. I know about bullet jump and don't want to ever lock up the cylinder due to that.

I know a number of die makers also make a "taper crimp die" for the 45 Colt. I "assume" this is for those that load with jacketed? Is there any advantage to using a taper crimp on such boolits as I'm using to iron out the bell and put a "light to moderate" taper crimp on the boolit as far as possibly extending case mouth life? Or am I overthinking it and it's nothing to consider?

Then . . . lets go to the Schofield casing. On certain loadings that I do in my 38s, I will often seat the boolit out farther - ex. a wadcutter or a 358-311 out farther for my Handi Rifle since the chamber is long. Does anyone (who loads Schofield to shoot in a 45 L cylinder) seat the -190, -460, etc. out further for the convenience of roll crimping in the top lube groove? I know that case volume will be more = reduced pressure but it would also save on some bullet jump, etc. (I imagine that most don't mess with the Schofield casing - I want to give it a try "just "cause" of the history of it

So . . . is there a time or justification of using a taper crimp die on a 45 Colt Long or Schofield with a cast boolit to possibly extend case mouth life or am I a "squirrel dog barking up the wrong tree? and only to br used with jacketed?

Thanks!

Jim

Thanks!

[Vann]

I roll crimp my both 45 Colt and Schofield, but I don't see where taper crimping will hurt any. Usually if I don't have a crimp groove in what ever I'm loading I'll seat it a little deep and crimp the case in to it. I really like a firm crimp. Taper crimping may increase case life but Starline is good brass they should give good service no matter how you crimp it, I lose almost just as much brass from a split starting in the middle and working out as I do with it cracking from the mouth.

I use two different dies one for my Colt brass and one for my Schofield brass. That way I can set them and leave them. My only question is why bother with the Schofield if you're going to seat them out long? When seated to it proper C.O.A.L Schofield ammo is only about 100 fps slower than a standard 45 Colt load. Seating them out further won't hurt anything, but you can accomplish the same effect by lite loading the Colt.

My apologies, I just reread your post and saw where you wanted to do it for the history of it. I usually seat my Schofield loads to about the same depth on the bullet as my Colt loads. The main reason I use Schofield brass is for my B/P loads, I can reduce the charge by using the shorter case and reduce it even more by seating the bullet a bit deeper. I prefer this method to using a filler or wad for reducing charges. Seating your bullet out longer won't hurt a thing.

[Outpost75]

I get better groups seating bullets longer in Schofield brass, crimping Saeco #954 in the lube groove, rather than the crimp groove. I use Lee .455 Webley dies for loading .45 Auto Rim, .455, .45 ACP for revolver use, as well as .45 Schofield and .45 Colt. Just change shell holders. Keeps life simple.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you both - greatly appreciate your input and answers.

Vann - I have a feeling that I will probably end up using the 45 Long for smokeless (well . . I'll give it a try with
BP just to say I've done it . . LOL) but I'll probably end up using the Schofield brass for the BP for the very reasons you mention. In my 38 BP, I don't like to use filler, wads or lube cookies. That's why I end up loading quite a few 38 Colt Short & Long with BP for plinking.

Your information on the crimp helps. I'll stick with what I have for now - the Lyman that gives the roll crimp. I sot of got started on the cheap with the 45 Colt/Schofield - I have always had it on my "bucket list" and figured that if I didn't do it now . . well time passes fast and I'm not getting any younger nor am I in the best of health. So . . "get 'er done" as they say. I have way too many 38s and figured I'd stick with just one 45 Colt . . yea right. I have a Uberti steel 7 1/2" on the way and already I've found a nice 7 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk - used like new and at a decent price - that I'm going to take a look at next week! Dog gone SA wheel guns have always been like potato chips . . can't stop at one.

I load on a Lee 4 hole classic turret and as I progress with this project, will probably eventually buy two sets of dies and two more turret plates so I can leave them set up - 1 for the Colt and 1 for the Schofield.

And . . if it wasn't for wanting to try the Schofield just for the history of it, I probably would have been just as well and wise to stick to the 45 Colt brass as you've mentioned. I bought 200 starling cases from a member here though and I'm sure they'll come in handy for the BP loads as well.

Thanks again for the information - greatly appreciated and clears up my thinking in regards to the taper crimp. I highly doubt that I'll ever load J words in this caliber - been casting too many years and just enjoy plinking with the lead to much.

Outpost75 - thanks for the info on the dies and how you do it! Sounds like you have it well figured out and it sure gives a person something to think about!

Jim

[dubber123]

I generally roll crimp my 454190's so the case mouth is at the top of the lube groove. Technically I'm not accomplishing much, as I am only crimping onto lube in that position, but with good neck tension, they don't move even with pretty stout loads. I have also been shooting a 235 gr. RF design for the .45 ACP out of one of my .45 Colt revolvers, and tried the taper crimp die from my .45 ACP set. I figured they would jump crimp, as these are running well over 1,000 fps. from a 3-3/4" barrel, but the case neck tension holds onto these also, and they are one of my most accurate loads. From what I have seen for up to moderate loads with mid weight boolits like you are using, just good neck tension is about all you need. Have fun.

[Wayne Smith]

The 45ACP uses a taper crimp because it uses the edge of the case for headspace. Roll crimp won't allow this. It has nothing to do with the relative effectiveness of the various crimp styles.

[dubber123]

The 45ACP uses a taper crimp because it uses the edge of the case for headspace. Roll crimp won't allow this. It has nothing to do with the relative effectiveness of the various crimp styles.

Well yeah, I do know the purpose of a straight taper crimp on an auto case. I've loaded a round or two ;) My point being, if you have sufficient case neck tension, not much crimp is required at all to prevent boolit jump in MANY .45 Colt loads. Yes, 320's at 1,300 will probably need some crimp. My 250's at 1,000+ from a sub 4" barrel don't really seem to need much. Fix the case neck tension, and worry about the crimp after.

[MT Chambers]

The 460 is meant for the .45 acp and the 190 is a very old design that doesn't have a real crimp groove, I would get a mold for a Keith bullet like 454424 or similar and have a proper place to crimp on a top notch bullet, RCBS also makes Keith designs, prolly Saeco as well, and NOE or Accurate.