What is the versatility of the 45-70 govt rifle caliber?

[Camba]

Hi all!
I had been toying around the idea of having a break open single shot rifle and I don't seem to make up my mind which caliber I should end up with (perhaps all :) ). The 45-70 Govt rifle seems attractive but I have never owned one before. The short list of what I would prefer is here below but I do want to tinker with the 45-70. I do not like to be kicked too hard since I already had a shoulder rotator cuff surgery done and I like to keep on shooting but mild to low loads:
1. 357 mag (hard to find and expensive)
2. 30-30 Win (hard to find and expensive)
3. 45 Colt (available but expensive)
4. 44 Mag (available)
5. 45-70 Govt (available)

As you can see, the 45-70 is the last of my short list but it is available in multiple places at reasonable price.
I do like to save in lead and powder so I would be using mostly pistol/shotgun powders with boolits in the 300gr range. Anyone has such a rifle and what type of loads are cheap but accurate on that type of rifle?
I get the popcorn going so I can watch the responses.
Thank you.
Camba
:coffee:

[Michael J. Spangler]

45/70 is extremely versatile.
From collar button bullets around 145 grains I believe. Up to and beyond 405 grains. I love a lee 405 pushed by 12 grains of unique in my 1895.
Do a google search for GMDR lever gun performance or someone along those lines. Powder puff loads for lots of cartridges. A 405 grain bullet can chug along at 850 fps with a little red dot or give the strength of a good rifle can move over 2000 fps.
Not to mention a single round ball in the 45/70 with 6 or so grains of red dot is a ton of fun. Or load it with 2 or 3 round balls.
It's tops in versatility.

Low pressure loads even at the hottest the cases will outlast you.

If you wanted a repeater I would go with 357 because you can burn through hundreds of 38s and you couldn't wipe the grin off your face with a shovel. For something that will be a bit slower and not eat up as much ammo the 45/70 will be great.

I've shot a friends H&R a lot and really like it. Handy gun. Not to mention that it was built on the rifle frame and can withstand any loads your shoulder is brave enough to shoot. Same frame is used for the 500 S&W rifles.

Good luck!

[sliphammer]

I like the 30-30 idea. 100 grain plinkers to 180 grain pointed, spitzer type bullets for bigger critters.

[Vann]

+1 for the 45/70. A full load will kill anything in North America, or as stated above pistol powders make it a nice plinking rifle with very good brass life. Also it's very easy to load for.

[Lonegun1894]

I would say go get the .45-70! Based on your description of wanting to use 300ish gr boolits and little recoil, I think you can't do much better than the .45-70, but the .44 Mag is a close second. Now, I am prejudiced because I have both, but use them more than I have been using my .30-30 the last couple years. The .45-70 is great, and I load my H&R 22" with the Lyman 457122HP, which weighs in at 335grs and casts at .461" for me. I size it to .460" and push it with 10.0-15.0grs Unique for a load that feels like shooting a .30-30 does for the top end of that scale, and just barely more than a .223 recoils on the low end of that. Now just as a warning, Lyman says that the loads for a Winchester 1886 or a Marlin 1895 top out at 14.5grs Unique, but lists loads of up to 17.5grs Unique for the Ruger #1 and #3, so this load is just barely into the Ruger loads, which based on everything I have read is perfectly safe in the H&R, but is NOT safe in a Trapdoor or similar strength action. Anyway, work up to it like always, but I get no pressure signs in mine whatsoever with these loads.

As an aside, for my .44 Mag H&R, since it slugs at .432", I had to get a mold that casts larger than the standard .430" that many handguns require, and my accuracy sweet spot for this rifle is at .434" bullets. Also, it has 1:38" twist, so some longer bullets may or may not stabilize. I use a Lyman 429421 in it that weighs in at 268grs and I size it to .434", and it gives me 2-3"@100yds with iron sights, but I haven't tried heavier boolits, and got shotgun patterns with anything smaller, so the .45-70 was easier to find a load it liked, but both are great now.

[NavyVet1959]

Are you planning to hunt with it or just punch holes in paper. If the latter, conserve your lead and go with a smaller diameter than the .45-70.

If you are going to be primarily shooting from a bench rest, a rolling block action will allow you to easily reload without changing the position of the gun whereas a break action would require that.

Of course, you could just go with a Thompson Encore and buy whatever various calibers as desired.

Many people with .357 mag break actions have it rechambered for .357 maximum.

The H&R "Buffalo Classic" with the 32" barrel will allow you to get pretty much all the energy out of a powder load as possible. If you plan on using iron sights, that long sight radius is going to be an advantage. Plus, the peep sights are good for old eyes.

[tdoyka]

i would choose the 45-70 in a handi-rifle(i own it), probably hard to find since h&r is no more:cry:. but if you are looking for a great cartridge, the 444 marlin. mine is a tc encore with 23" MGM barrel. i really love this gun!!! i shot 265gr hornady fn at 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots). the 200gr hornady xtp's with a load of trail boss shot at 50 yards and 12 shots for 3/4". i'm getting ready to try the 275gr ranch dog at 100 yards with either rel7 or h4198. this winter i am going to look for another boolit that can be a groundhog gun out to 150 yards, probably something 200-240gr boolit. either a round nose or a semi wad cutter.
the 45-70 is a good gun, but the 444 marlin is just plain awesome!!! both can go from mild to wild, but the 444 is without a doubt(my opinion:mrgreen:) the best thing since sliced bread!!!

[sthwestvictoria]

It is a sad twist of fate that 45 pistols are a different bore to the rifles, unlike the .358 pistols and rifles. I suppose it just means a fellow needs more moulds to go from light to heavy in the 45-70.
there is the 45colt/454 option however they are rarer and more expensive than 45-70 options.

[tsubaki]

I don't believe it's possible to overemphasize the versatility of a 45/70.
A projectile capability from below 300gr to well over 500gr is not uncommon and not to mention the numerous powder choices to fit most every situation.
But especially in a modern single shot rifle.
These are the 300gr jacketed stuff I'm using till I make up my mind on what boolits to start playing with.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w159/tsubaki3/45-70300gr_zpse106cace.jpg

[GhostHawk]

IMO comes down to what you want to spend on dies, molds, sizing dies.

The rifles are ALL good. All those calibers listed will reward you if you take the time to work up loads.

So it comes down to

A Do I want to pay a dollar each or more for .45-70 brass?
Or would I be happier paying under 50 cents each for a .44 mag?

Dies come into it.

Molds are the big question. If you like the really good expensive molds a cartridge like the .45-70 can get real expensive real fast.

Or if you are satisfied with the lee, a .240 grain and the .430 310 grain gas checked would do everything you need to do with a .44 mag.

So what turns your crank?

Follow your heart.

[Camba]

I like this rifle to be used for hunting. The only time that it would be used for paper punching is to sight it in and to develop loads.
Is it true that you can shoot a 410 gauge shotshell with it too?

[Cowboy_Dan]

It is a sad twist of fate that 45 pistols are a different bore to the rifles, unlike the .358 pistols and rifles. I suppose it just means a fellow needs more moulds to go from light to heavy in the 45-70.
there is the 45colt/454 option however they are rarer and more expensive than 45-70 options.

Your darn tootin'. One consequence of this is my .45/.410. 8t has a .45 rifle spec barrel because it was made to be convertible to .45-70 for sales in CA and MD. It's tough finding molds that will fit it and not be too heavy for plesant shooting.

[farmerjim]

I have 4 Handis. 22 hornet, 223, 357 mag re chambered to 357 Maximum, and 45-70. I like them all. The 357 Max is probably the most versatile shooting 38 sp 357 mag and 357 max. Unless you load the 45-70 way down it kicks like a mule. The 223 is dead accurate and components are easy to find and cheep. The hornet is a cheep plinker and small game hunter.

[John Allen]

I personally have more 45/70's than I have hands and toes. I like it for the versatility. The real reason however is that they are just fun to play with and easy to reload. I shoot all my old stuff with blackpowder and let me tell you there is nothing more fun than setting off a load of blackpowder in a cartridge gun.

[Beerd]

.......... I do not like to be kicked too hard since I already had a shoulder rotator cuff surgery done

.......................... I do like to save in lead and powder..................

If you are not dead set on the 45/70 you should look at a TC Contender or Encore in .357 Max.
..

[NavyVet1959]

I don't believe it's possible to overemphasize the versatility of a 45/70.
A projectile capability from below 300gr to well over 500gr is not uncommon and not to mention the numerous powder choices to fit most every situation.

Don't forget round balls. That brings the lower end down to 147 gr with the Lee .457 RB mold. Or a .490 RB run through a sizer.

[Mk42gunner]

I like this rifle to be used for hunting. The only time that it would be used for paper punching is to sight it in and to develop loads.
Is it true that you can shoot a 410 gauge shotshell with it too?

A 2½" .410 shell will fit and fire in a .45-70 chamber. That's the good news. The bad news is you get a donut shaped pattern at 10-15 yards that would miss a centered sitting rabbit, at least in the Marlin I had. I haven't tried it in the Trapdoor.

Robert

[FullTang]

.45-70 is a great cartridge, no doubt about it, and it is very versatile for the reloader. However, it is still the most expensive (of those you listed) for components, and it's hard to get a useful hunting load with really low recoil out of a single-shot rifle. Those single shot (H&R, Rossi) break-action guns are usually on the lighter side, so your shoulder may not be happy. Sure, you can shoot 300 gr bullets at 600 fps, and that will have low recoil, but won't be any good for longer range. The .44s offer a better selection of lighter bullets (esp in cheap Lee molds), but can still get the job done.

[MT Chambers]

From your list the 45/70 is the most versatile, however it would still offer the most recoil.

[Petrol & Powder]

Camba, you said it would be used for hunting. What type of hunting? What would be the game, what range and what terrain ?

Everything on your list will take deer with varying conditions and restrictions. The .45-70 would produce the most recoil but it is a very versatile cartridge. You're going to have establish your criteria a little more finely.
How much recoil are you willing to tolerate?
What type of range and game will you be working with?
How much gun weight are you willing to tolerate ? (goes directly towards felt recoil)

[longbow]

+ another one for .45-70 for versatility. If you will only be shooting light loads then .44 mag. would be a more logical choice overall but the .45-70 offers far more versatility for higher velocity and heavier boolits if desired.

Basically I see no downside to .45-70 based on your requirements as being available and not expensive for your needs.

If you don't want heavy recoiling loads use light boolits to 300 grs. or so with moderate powder charges and duplicate heavy .44 mag. loads or go even lighter with collar button loads for small game and target shooting, then heavier boolits for hunting.

The only drawback to .45-70 I see is that it is not a flat shooting long range caliber. Certainly it is used for long range shooting but with long heavy boolits, heavy loads and high trajectories (=recoil). Other than that it is easy to load for and extremely versatile.

If I had to choose one cartridge for all shooting it would be .45-70.

My thoughts anyway.

Longbow

[dh2]

+1 for the 45/70. A full load will kill anything in North America, or as stated above pistol powders make it a nice plinking rifle with very good brass life. Also it's very easy to load for.
with the 45/70 there is no worry about not having enough gun for any thing in North America if recoil is a worry there is plenty of data for the frap door rifle that makes it very manageable for a day on the range.

[NavyVet1959]

with the 45/70 there is no worry about not having enough gun for any thing in North America if recoil is a worry there is plenty of data for the frap door rifle that makes it very manageable for a day on the range.

"Go big... or go home..." :)

[Michael J. Spangler]

I Shot about 100 loads of 405 grains over 12 grains of unique and another 40 or so of 405 with varying loads of target and some with 31 grains of H4198
I got my recoil fill in and didn't quit after 3rd round. Kind of wish I brought more with me.

Very very versatile.

On side note. 40 grains of Varget hit like a hammer on my shoulder.
Should be just under 1400 FPS
31 grains of H4198 was much nicer to shoot and should be running about 50 FPS faster.

No more Varget in 45-70 for me

[Camba]

Is great to see the 45-70 crowd responding. Thank you guys. But please, don't stop there... keep'em coming!
After all this years, I had and still have several guns and I continue to look for something else that I don't have. Eventually, I want to have an old man's rifle that I can use it for all my needs. I will be using it for hunting deer and to tinker with it. I kind of see the 45-70 as a slug gun but more accurate (my guess). Having a 20GA shotgun with brass cartridges was another option that was not mentioned but I do have a few shotguns, including an H&R break open.
After seeing the shelves at the sporting good stores, it makes me want to have a gun that can be versatile to loaded with just about anything (black powder, smokeless, cast boolits, and percussion caps stuff). Being able to keep on shooting, long after the factory ammo and components disappear, and being able to 'McGiver' your loads with what you can find, would be a great thing.

What kind of velocities do you get using 12 gr of Unique?

Camba

[Michael J. Spangler]

Is great to see the 45-70 crowd responding. Thank you guys. But please, don't stop there... keep'em coming!
After all this years, I had and still have several guns and I continue to look for something else that I don't have. Eventually, I want to have an old man's rifle that I can use it for all my needs. I will be using it for hunting deer and to tinker with it. I kind of see the 45-70 as a slug gun but more accurate (my guess). Having a 20GA shotgun with brass cartridges was another option that was not mentioned but I do have a few shotguns, including an H&R break open.
After seeing the shelves at the sporting good stores, it makes me want to have a gun that can be versatile to loaded with just about anything (black powder, smokeless, cast boolits, and percussion caps stuff). Being able to keep on shooting, long after the factory ammo and components disappear, and being able to 'McGiver' your loads with what you can find, would be a great thing.

What kind of velocities do you get using 12 gr of Unique?

Camba


http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[Elkins45]

I have a 45/70 Handi and also have an approved Form 1 to make a 10" 45 caliber silencer. I'm really hopeful I can find the time to put it all together before hunting season. A subsonic bull it is much more effective when it's 45 caliber and weighs 500 grains!

Let me suggest something else to think about. Now that H&R is kaput the Handi rifles are getting harder to find in 45/70. Just for an experiment I bought a CVA Scout in 35 Remington from Bud's for $170. This price includes a really nice integral scope ring/mount set. It has a much better trigger than my Handi and is quite accurate. It loves the RCBS 200 FN. It's something else to consider.

Given how hard 35 Rem brass is to find at the moment I'm either going to start converting 308 or just pay the equivalent cost of 100 new brass and buy a 358 Win reamer and convert the gun.

[Char-Gar]

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject at land;

1. All rifles are single shot, as only one round can be in the chamber at any given time. The magazine is just a convenient place to carry extra rounds. Getting new rounds into the chamber as quickly as possible is of no value to the sports shooter.

2. The 45-70 was not designed to be a versatile round. It was designed for military use in the day of big bullets and black powder. Any versatility comes when handloaded to deviate from it's design purpose. Any round can be versatile in this manner.

[starmac]

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject at land;

1. All rifles are single shot, as only one round can be in the chamber at any given time. The magazine is just a convenient place to carry extra rounds. Getting new rounds into the chamber as quickly as possible is of no value to the sports shooter.

2. The 45-70 was not designed to be a versatile round. It was designed for military use in the day of big bullets and black powder. Any versatility comes when handloaded to deviate from it's design purpose. Any round can be versatile in this manner.

Very true, but by that very same logic, it kind of puts the 45/70 at the top of his list, as far as versatality goes.

[M-Tecs]

1. All rifles are single shot, as only one round can be in the chamber at any given time. The magazine is just a convenient place to carry extra rounds. Getting new rounds into the chamber as quickly as possible is of no value to the sports shooter.


Have to disagree with you on this one. Twice I have had three deer tags in my pocket and three deer have hit the dirt in under five seconds.

Same for coyotes. Caught a pack of seven in deep snow. I managed to get five with six shots. When calling yotes doubles are common and I have got triples a few times. I have also missed and quick follow-up shots saved the day.

I average about 2,500 rounds a year shooting prairie dogs mostly with AR15 Match rifles since I find great value in the 20 round mags and quick follow-up shots on multiple targets.

[starmac]

I probably couldn't do it now, but when I was a kid all of my hunting was done with a single shot, break action shotgun, it is suprising how fast you can get with follow up shots, when that is what you have to work with.

[cold1]

45-70 versatility can be summed up by looking at the ends of the performance spectrum. Light loads are equal to a 45 cal air gun, heavy loads can be used on dangerous game. There just isnt too many other calibers that can do that. Are there a few, sure. The 45-70 is one of the best cartridges for handloaders because a load can be taylored anywhere in that spectrum.

I have a load for my original trapdoor that uses .452 250gr boolits paper patched up to .460. Light shooting (less than 1000FPS) and accurate. I have pushed the envelop in my Marlin 1895 with low end ruger only loads (i am older now and not needing that much horsepower anymore) I have 180 gr collar buttons and can run them from less than 1000fps to over 2000fps (theoretically), Soft lead, hard lead, smokeless, Blackpowder, there are loads for all. Not many others can match that.

[oscarflytyer]

Of them all, 30-30 or 45-70. All in Marlin/Winchester can be had for about the same if you are patient. I have both. Limited exp with the 30-30 and ramping up with it and the 45-70. LOVE my 1895 45-70!

I have also had cuff surgery. I range shoot with a PAST pad most times. But my current 45-70 load is a light Trapdoor load. Lee 405 HB in front of 38.5 grns IMR 3031. 85 yd zero, from 1" hi to 2" low to 100 yds. Flat THUMPS a deer inside 100 yds, hoot to shoot all day and the recoil is very easy. It is just plain fun to shoot - paper to deer!

[rush1886]

45-70! The ONLY Government I need!

[JSnover]

Eventually, I want to have an old man's rifle that I can use it for all my needs. I will be using it for hunting deer and to tinker with it. I kind of see the 45-70 as a slug gun but more accurate (my guess). Having a 20GA shotgun with brass cartridges was another option that was not mentioned but I do have a few shotguns, including an H&R break open.
After seeing the shelves at the sporting good stores, it makes me want to have a gun that can be versatile to loaded with just about anything … .

Camba

Maybe I missed it, what sort of 45-70 are you looking at? My Buffalo Classic got the job done but recoil was stout unless I backed off to light boolits over light smokeless charges.
My Enfield sporter weighs a bit more but heavier loads are manageable with a good recoil pad.
My Remington Roller is a hefty beast (full octagon barrel). Not something I'd want to carry all day but all that weight soaks up a good amount of recoil when the boolits get up to 450gr or more.

[CHeatermk3]

I've had the H&R 45-70 both ways--32" Buffalo Classic and Standard lenght barrel In a Handirifle.

The Buffalo classic has the best irons on any of the H&R rifles (38-55 does too but that's anothercan of worms). The BC with it's extra-long barrel caused it to twist me around under recoil--I finally got rid of it because I wound up having to see my chiropractor after every time I shot it.

The shorter barrel works well for me and I've discovered that a slip-on decelerator recoil pad by Pachmeyer does wonders reducing the recoil to camfortable levels.

HTH!