358 Winchester Cast Bullet

[bucklind2]

My son and I are each building a 358 Winchester bolt rifle. He has designed a cast boolit that casts out at about 327 grains with a .656 bc. Hoping to get it to 1700 to 1800 fps. Will make a chamber cast and custom cut the mold to the chamber. Project is going to take a while, but am looking forward to the challenge.

[Ben]

327 grains

That is a lot of bullet for a Whelen, but certainly a lot for a 358 Win.
Is there a reason for such a heavy bullet ?

[waksupi]

Too heavy. You would have to cut a long, long throat, and I would guarantee feeding problems in anything but a single shot. I found that even with the 358009/Bator heavy, that I had to make a long throat.

I would consider something in the 260 gr. range. Everyone will be much happier in the end.

[Ben]

DITTO ! !

250 - 260 grs. is plenty unless you come up against an Abrams Tank.

[rockrat]

There is a GB going on over at NOE for a 315gr boolit for the 35cal

[OnHoPr]

Interesting concept. BC always catches my eye. Obviously you would need a long lead for such a long boolit in the 358. Is this some sort of paper patch design or special gas check design to get that much BC. Would the general 308 action and mag hold it with AOL? Or, would you need something like the Savage 110 action. If you seated deeply that would take away a lot of powder room. What are you shooting at, deer/game, Schutzen, or competition. If at game at long distances (what a .656BC is designed for or fighting wind at paper) the front 30 or 40% would still have to be soft to get eckspansion even starting out a 1700 to 1800 fps at a couple of hundred yards or so. Are your thoughts for a faster or slower powder?

[bucklind2]

I did forget to mention that both donor rifles are long action. 1 is a stagger feed the other is a center feed. There will be no magazine restrictions at all. The boolit itself is 1.325 inches long and can be seated way out. The OAL will be almost the same as an 06.

[waksupi]

Well, you are just wasting lead, and getting more recoil with that weight of projectle. I've killed a lot of game big and small with .358 Wins. and see absolutely no use for those bullets. Knock yourself out though, some just need to see the elephant their self.

[hicard]

There are a lot of molds in the 235 gr range that I like, and use. See no use for anything larger. Accurate molds make a great looking 235L mold you might want to look at.

[KLR]

bucklind2 - If you enjoy experimenting then it's a worthy pursuit.

So, what are your plans for this bullet, and where are the pics?

[bucklind2]

KLR- Most people assume that I am looking for a hunting bullet and not a silhouette one. The project is in the concept stage. The rifles still need put together but the receivers and barrels have been acquired. Here is the design of the bullet but it is not the finished product. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/10/8af9cf295a9c3ac3de9e4ed26f1106f1.jpg

[GLynn41]

//this not ab0ut need (to me) but to have fun// shoot what you want -- I have used a 275 gr RN @ 2200-- jsut for fun-- I have also killed deer with 250 gr Speer-- I have not gone cast in .358W ( i have had 3 of them) because of the bc --I use mine for woods and field --longest kill was 280 long steps ---I have settled on 200 gr gummie bears @ 2600 -- the best bullet for my gun has always been the 225 gr Seirra-- i have given much thought to a cast in the 220 to 245gr range -- Accurate has a 245 gr mold I like but i have held off because of the field thing -- 2" high @ 100 is 4 down at 250 yds -- with 200 gr g bullet- velocity is about 2000 and hornady told it will expand down to 1700

[MarkP]

Interesting keep us posted on your progress.

[Elkins45]

What barrel twist are you planning to use? I think the normal 1-14 is going to have trouble stabilizing such a heavy bullet.

[bucklind2]

It is a 1-14 twist. When you input the numbers in a ballistic stability calculator it shows a 1.9 at 1100 fps. 1.5 is considered stable in that calculator.

[OnHoPr]

That is quite a kawhaloper. I went to hornady ballistics calculator and used the 35 whelen case for 2200 fps. @ 300 yds it is still doing 1849 fps has 2481 ftlbs, only a 12" drop with 3" high @ 100 yds along with only a 6.6 wind drift. You wouldn't need any fancy scopes for that until getting near the 400 yd mark.

[Elkins45]

It is a 1-14 twist. When you input the numbers in a ballistic stability calculator it shows a 1.9 at 1100 fps. 1.5 is considered stable in that calculator.
That may be the same calculator that told me the NOE 247 would be stable from my 1-10" 308 at 1000 fps. That calculator lied: they go through the target sideways at 50 yards.

[bucklind2]

That is quite a kawhaloper. I went to hornady ballistics calculator and used the 35 whelen case for 2200 fps. @ 300 yds it is still doing 1849 fps has 2481 ftlbs, only a 12" drop with 3" high @ 100 yds along with only a 6.6 wind drift. You wouldn't need any fancy scopes for that until getting near the 400 yd mark.
That is the idea behind it. It really is just something to play with. There were a lot of people who said that my son would be crazy to use a 255 grain in his 06. It shoots really well by the way.

[bucklind2]

I have a lot of fun at the range with stuff people have never seen. It has been said that the 358 Winchester is a brush gun. I want people who have never thought otherwise to see it shooting a 12 inch square steel plate at 300 yards to have a different impression. Especially if it tries to remove the plate from the chain.

[Elkins45]

Have you considered hollow pointing it to get the same BC with a little less weight? I'm a conservationist: I'm trying to conserve lead :)

[bucklind2]

I am also a conservationist. The majority of the lead I have has been reclaimed from the banks at the range. 98 % of what I will shoot will be under 200 grains including #3 buckshot that is conveniently .360 in diameter with about 1 grain of bullseye. So an occasional show off load for the uninformed I see to be perfectly acceptable. P.S. My definition of conservationist is to use as little lead and powder as I need to have a fun day at the range. Meaning conserve money not necessarily resources since 100% of my lead was either thrown away or shot into the bank.

[yondering]

Have you considered hollow pointing it to get the same BC with a little less weight? I'm a conservationist: I'm trying to conserve lead :)

You don't get the same b.c. with less weight. The heavy weight is the reason for the high b.c., although to be honest I don't believe that number, with the flat point on this one. Look at some jacketed .338 or .375 bullets with a b.c. in that ~.650 range, and compare it to this one, big difference.

My 1-14 twist rifles (35 Rem and 35 Whelen) won't stabilize a bullet that long. They won't stabilize the 310gr NEI that the NOE group buy is similar to either; I think a lot of people might be disappointed with that one.

[Yodogsandman]

My 1-14 twist rifles (35 Rem and 35 Whelen) won't stabilize a bullet that long. They won't stabilize the 310gr NEI that the NOE group buy is similar to either; I think a lot of people might be disappointed with that one.

Using the following calculator, that bullet (1.219" long x .360" dia) will stabilize in 35 Whelen with a 1 in 16 twist at 1800 FPS. The limiting factors for the 35 Rem will be powder capacity and action length.

A 1 in 14 twist, 35 Whelen will easily stabilize it.

http://kwk.us/twist.html

[yondering]

I don't care what the calculator says; when bullets are going sideways at 25 yards, they aren't stabilized.

Those calculators are a guideline, not absolute truth.

[Yodogsandman]

So, with all your experience then of shooting boolits sideways, why would you think this cast bullet will also fly sideways? If you don't want to buy one of these molds, then don't. Do you have anything constructive to add?

Don't disparage a boolit before it even hits the shelves! I and a lot of others, that have contributed their opinions, have a lot of time and thought invested in making sure that it will shoot and I don't appreciate your rant!

For those interested in a heavy, accurate, .35 Thumper of a boolit, the signups are still ongoing over on the NOE site.

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1026.0.html

[yondering]

So, with all your experience then of shooting boolits sideways, why would you think this cast bullet will also fly sideways? If you don't want to buy one of these molds, then don't. Do you have anything constructive to add?


Does this look familiar?
Not the 358009 (which shoots well in my rifles) but the NEI bullet that your NOE design is a copy of. To be fair, it's 10 grains less and about .010" shorter than the NOE. I've run it both lubed and paper patched with the same results.

I don't believe I've posted any rants, just my experience. Have you used that NEI bullet, or heard from anyone else who has? It's not exactly the same as the 310 NOE design, but about as close as you can get. I got a sample of these in the late 90's from a member on another forum; at that time a number of people reported the same lack of stability with this design. I haven't heard much about it since then until this NOE buy came up.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_0814.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_0810.jpg

[Yodogsandman]

The NEI looks "beagled" to me or the mold halves don't fit well together. It also carries the "bandaide" that NEI called a "DD" ring on their undersized nose. Boolits from my NEI mold, without the "DD" ring, will shoot about 3", 10 shot groups at 100 yards at approximately 2000 FPS even with the nose being .003" diameter undersized. Mine at least shoot straight.

The problems encountered with that mold (NEI 358 282 GC) have been addressed and modified. Discussions have been ongoing on several cast bullet sites for months. The new "35 Thumper", the NOE 360-310 FP has a 69% nose bearing surface and tapered front band to center it during initial acceleration when fired. I'm sure it will shoot in any SAAMI 35 Whelen chamber and barrel. Check the sketch dimensions against your own chamber slug dimensions, I think this will work for you, too.