Can you use a cast lead round nose in a lever gun?

[justwondering01]

I just got a Rossi 92 in .357 and I have a Lee 358 2R mold that I use for a revolver. Can I use this mold for the Rossi as well?

[retread]

I use round nose in my modal 94 Winchester, both cast and jacketed. Never have had a problem. It (30-30) does use a LR primer which is harder that the softer pistol primer so that would be my only concern.

[justwondering01]

Great! Thanks for the info.

[Kitika]

I use the 150gr round nose lee bullet in the .357 Rossi with no issues. It would have to be a pretty pointy bullet to set of a primer in my opinion.

[Ken in Iowa]

Thankfully there are not a lot of reports of tubular magazine explosions. The ones that I have heard about usually involved the original Henry rifle design which your Rossi is not.

I am sure that your round nosed Boolits could be at risk if several factors come into play, but many shooters use RN Boolits and never had a problem.

Flat nose Boolits give a greater margin of safety, so that is what I normally use.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It depends on a lot of things, and besides those named, recoil. I have a very old magazine with a photograph of an exploded Winchester 71 in .450 Alaskan, which cost the shooter part of his left hand. The weight of cartridges in the magazine can make a difference too. I haven't shot my .32-40 Winchester 94, but I would have few worries with the button magazine.

What dents brass will dent lead, If you are doing this and getting away with it, take a look at the noses of the other bullets in the magazine. If they don't take a flat from recoil, I think you can rest easy.

[fecmech]

I did a test some years back that set my mind at ease. I set a number of federal primed .38 spl cases in my vise to hold them. I then held a number of my H&G #39 bullets in a pair of pliers nose down on the primed cases and whacked their bases with an 8 oz. ball peen hammer. I did this at least 10-15 times and none of the primers fired. Now I realize this may not be the be all and end all of tests, or say that a rn bullet can't possibly set off a primer. By the same token I cannot say that I will not die in a car wreck going to the store for a loaf of bread. To my mind the possibility is remote enough that I do load RN's in my lever gun tube and occasionally go to the store for bread. That's my take on it.

[RobS]

A flat nose won't set off a primer, a round nose probably won't or however one wants to look at things..............The probably won't is all I need, I have designed all my lever action bullets to have a flat nose. As cheap as Lee molds are the Lee 358-158-RF is a nice possibility and is a darn fine revolver boolit too.

[longbow]

My favourite boolit for my 1895 Marlin in .45-70 was the Lyman 457124 385 gr. round nose. Back in those days I loaded as hot as the gun would stand (young and not terribly smart back then). Never had a problem.

I wouldn't do it with a pointy boolit but a large round nose has too large a contact area to set off a primer. In my opinion anyway.

As a test, try priming a cartridge, set it in a piece of tubing or in a vice and use a boolit as a "firing pin" then whack it with a hammer to see if you can set off the primer. I'm betting that with any large round nose it won't happen until the whole primer is crushed and way more force than recoil would generate.

Of course if you elect to try that, use gloves, safety glasses, hearing protection etc.

Also, if you look through some of the old reloading manuals here:

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/reloading-manuals

You will see listings for round nose boolits for lever action/tubular magazine guns and in the Lyman 44 a statement to use "blunt or round nose bullets" in tubular magazines. If it wasn't safe they wouldn't publish it.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[trapper9260]

My favourite boolit for my 1895 Marlin in .45-70 was the Lyman 457124 385 gr. round nose. Back in those days I loaded as hot as the gun would stand (young and not terribly smart back then). Never had a problem.

I wouldn't do it with a pointy boolit but a large round nose has too large a contact area to set off a primer. In my opinion anyway.

As a test, try priming a cartridge, set it in a piece of tubing or in a vice and use a boolit as a "firing pin" then whack it with a hammer to see if you can set off the primer. I'm betting that with any large round nose it won't happen until the whole primer is crushed and way more force than recoil would generate.

Of course if you elect to try that, use gloves, safety glasses, hearing protection etc.

Also, if you look through some of the old reloading manuals here:

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/reloading-manuals

You will see listings for round nose boolits for lever action/tubular magazine guns and in the Lyman 44 a statement to use "blunt or round nose bullets" in tubular magazines. If it wasn't safe they wouldn't publish it.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

You are right Longbow.That is what I always learn also.Do not use any pointed bullet in a tube.

[runfiverun]

just take 2 rounds and lay them on the table one behind the other.
is the boolit hitting the primer?
could it jar forward and set it off?

[Larry Gibson]

I wonder why the 30-30 was/has/is loaded by the factories with RN bullets for 100+ years? I wonder how many 311291s have been loaded and shot in tube fed 30-30s in the last 100+ years? Ever heard of a problem with either?

I shot probably several thousand RN 38 SPLs through a couple lever actions some years back w/o a single worry about it or a single problem but that was before the internet............

Larry Gibson

[Ballistics in Scotland]

just take 2 rounds and lay them on the table one behind the other.
is the boolit hitting the primer?
could it jar forward and set it off?

Not on my table it couldn't. The overwhelming opinion seems to be that it is safe in most cases. I think the .450 Alaskan I mentioned was probably loaded to extreme levels, and gave more recoil than any of us are used to in a lever-action. I doubt if my moderately powerful smokeless loads in my .40-82 86, at about 2000 ft./sec. with 260gr. bullets, came anywhere near it. But I would want flat noses with that.

The Marlin 1881 lever-action used the .45-70 before the Winchester 86 came along. But it failed in military trials, primarily due to magazine explosions with the round-nosed government bullet. I believe, but may be wrong, the Winchester avoided this because of Mason's cartridge hook, which controlled feed of the round onto the ramp with less spring tension. They certainly avoided it somehow, and Marlin eventually did so, too late for the military contract, by using a small rifle primer, rather deeply seated. They had something of a squabble later, when Winchester, who had for a while done the same with their cartridges, reverted to large rifled primers again.

I would be very wary of using heavily loaded cartridges and relying on geometry to keep the bullet noses off the primers. They may jump in and out of contact for all we know (high speed video with a transparent magazine tube, anyone?) and if you toss a handful of cartridges on the floor often enough, you will eventually get one standing on its nose. An exception is the 8mm. Lebel, which was originally designed with a flat-nosed jacketed bullet, and a slight angle half-way down the case body to make sure it would lie at an angle in the magazine. In 1898 it was changed for the pointed Balle D, the first any country used, in solid brass. But this was accompanied by the introduction of an annular groove in the case-head to catch the bullet point. I never heard of any accidents with either of these.

[MaLar]

I have B92 in 357 my favorite load is cast 158 RN's and 6 grns of Unique . I have shot literally thousands through it and never had a problem.
It's the only bullet that feeds reliably through it. And is very accurate.

[flint45]

It's not a problem shot thousands no problems.

[murf6656]

I read a test they did in a magazine article, I believe i was rifle or handloader. Where they set different rounds off in simulated magazine tubes. The only rounds that did any real damage were large cases like 50-110 loaded with black powder. I think most of the smokeless rounds barely pushed the bullet out of the case, and didn't even damage the tube. The magazine tube just didn't confine the case tight enough for it to build up any pressure with smokeless powder. Kind of like smacking 22 shells with a hammer.

[FergusonTO35]

Remington factory 150 grain 30-30's have a somewhat aerodynamic round nose profile. They've sold millions of these things and I've never heard of them causing a problem.

[muskeg13]

A flat nose won't set off a primer. Smokeless powder won't even damage the magazine tube because the tube just can't confine the gas tight enough to build up any pressure. If you don't believe that, just whack a few rounds with a ball peen hammer to see if they go off and you keep all of your fingers and eyesight. Sounds like good internet advice to me. Better make sure that your medical and life insurance is paid up to date.

The pics below show the remains of 200 gr flat nose .44s, stoked with a low-to-mid range Lyman cast book quantity of Unique with Federal standard pistol primers. $#!% happens!
148551 148552 148553 148554 148555 It seems we flog this issue about every 2 years. Suit yourself. This was a Rossi 92 by the way.

[Low Budget Shooter]

I'm reminded of that logic rule, whatever the proper Latin name for it is: the existence of even one example of a certain thing disproves all and any arguments against its possibility.

[OnHoPr]

The pics below show the remains of 200 gr flat nose .44s, stoked with a low-to-mid range Lyman cast book quantity of Unique with Federal standard pistol primers. $#!% happens!

Interesting, even the flat nose boolit is not completely safe 100% of the time. Could it have been a primer not seated all the way. If the primer was seated even .002 below the bottom base of the brass the boolit would have had to deform on recoil to hit the primer then at a plus force to set the primer off. I guess that is why Speer made Mag Tips. Looks like a nice soft boolit though, nice mushrooming without a whole lot of velocity.

[EDK]

Molds are cheap...guns ain't! Blowing up a gun is not an experience to be desired. $1000 custom RUGER 44 Vaquero turned into $100 worth of salvaged parts...just got it back from ALPHA PRECISION with a 3 pound trigger a month before KA-BOOM.

[Airman Basic]

Shot literally thousands of these since I got a Lee 6 cavity in all my 44s. Marlin, Rossi, Ruger. Sure feeds slick in the levers. Nothing blew up.
148597

[Char-Gar]

The ancient mantra of never using a pointed bullet in a tubular magazine is true. But a round nose is not a pointed/spire point. One of the needle nose jacketed spire bullet lined up with it's beak pointed at the primer of the round in front of it, could indeed be bad news.

A lead round nose is another matter. Whether or not the nose will light off the primer in front is a matter of recoil. A 38 Special, 30-30 will not, but a stout 45-70 just might.

[OnHoPr]

Shot literally thousands of these since I got a Lee 6 cavity in all my 44s. Marlin, Rossi, Ruger. Sure feeds slick in the levers. Nothing blew up.
148597

For a simple boolit it sure shoots fine. Have you ever hit hair with, with what alloy, and how did it perform?

[longbow]

That it happened is not in question but the cause is not clear.

It easily could have been an improperly seated primer, dirty primer pocket, improper primer (large rifle primer?), faulty primer or simply a 1 in a million...? 1 in 10 million...? 1 in 100 million event.

You are correct in saying that "stuff" happens sometimes and so it does. However, the only cases of tube magazine blow ups I have heard about, and only on the internet (no personal experience and don't know anyone it has happened to), are when the magazine is stoked with handloads. Makes one wonder.

Longbow

[FergusonTO35]

Federal priming compound seems to be alot more impact sensitive than others. I no longer use their rimfire ammo in autloaders, too much risk of a slam fire.

[Airman Basic]

For a simple boolit it sure shoots fine. Have you ever hit hair with, with what alloy, and how did it perform?
Got it to solve feeding issues with the levers. Never hunted more than small game with it. Mostly steel and targets of opportunity. Cans, bottles, etc.

[longbow]

When I was young and not so smart (read lack of experience) I thought large rifle primers and large pistol primers were the same except the large rifle cups were harder/stronger for higher pressures so was using them in my .44 mag. rifle loads (it was a rifle after all). Well, it turns out that large rifle primers are slightly deeper than large pistol primers (one wonders why they would do that) and I had a few go off while seating them using my Lee Loader (hammer seating). It took me a while to figure out why.

The large rifle primers are deeper than large pistol primers so sit proud of the head by a few thou in pistol cartridges when fully seated. While most may be aware of this, it was news to me at the time. Obviously a high primer can lead to problems when seating with tools like the Lee Loader, slam fires or possibly in tube magazines.

I will add that a dirty primer pocket might also lead to the same situation if the build up leaves the primer high after seating.

I will also add that even though I had high primers and fired several hundred rounds of full loads before I discovered my mistake, I did not have a magazine tube detonation. My boolit choice at the time was Lyman 429421 SWC.

It will take some effort to convince me that a flat nose or large round nose boolit will set off a primer in a tube magazine without some help... which in my experience is usually operator error.

Longbow

[NavyVet1959]

Having recently had a slam fire in a .300AAC AR with the safety on, I'm a bit more diligent about seating my primers flush these days.

I have used a round ball in a .44 mag and had it loaded so that the center of the ball was right at the mouth of the case, so I guess you don't get more round nose than that.

[muskeg13]

It easily could have been an improperly seated primer, dirty primer pocket, improper primer (large rifle primer?), faulty primer or simply a 1 in a million...? 1 in 10 million...? 1 in 100 million event.

I can't rule out an inproperly seated primer, but the cases were brand new unfired, so the primer pockets were clean as a whistle. The primers were all Federal 150 Large Pistol. I later also pulled every remaining round in the cartridge box and re-weighed the charges. All were dead on at just over 10 gr Unique, and the cartridge case was perfect after firing a moderate cast bullet load, so it wasn't an overload. The bullets were fairly soft, not hard lead.

[longbow]

Well, now you have me going if all was well component and procedure wise so it looks like faulty or improperly seated primer are the only options other than the boolit nose being a firing pin. When I get some time I will do a hammer/boolit test to see if I can set off a primer.

Like I said, I shot a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 with max. Marlin loads from the Hornady book using Lee 405 gr. flat point and Lyman 457124 385 gr. round nose boolits. I shot thousands of those hot loads and never had a problem. .45-70 has a LOT more recoil than moderate .44 loads.

Not saying it can't happen, anything can happen, but I find it hard to believe a flat nose or large round nose boolit will set off a properly seated primer due to recoil and the nose denting the primer enough to cause the detonation. Let's remember how primers are seated to begin with ~ pressed in with a steel pin.

I have on occasion had misfires where even a firing pin didn't dent a primer enough to set it off and it took a second try.

However, if one did go then I can certainly accept that the next round in the magazine could be set off by the boolit behind it. There would be some "oomph" as the boolit exited the cartridge

Time for some hands on testing to satisfy myself, if no-one else. I'll make a hammer/boolit test rig and give it a go then report results. It will be a while though as I have to find then install heads on my truck. Maybe in 2 or 3 weeks.

Longbow

[ABJ]

Federal primers are known to be softer than other brands. I have a custom 38 special model 15 for Bullseye and i think it was set at 2.75 lb trigger pull(2.5 lb being mim.) and it will not and i mean not fire a cci or win primer. As for my levers i always use cci and not federal primers for a little added safety. I have seen a report on hardness of primers either here or maybe in "Handloader". As for my own i feel comfortable loading the lee 150 flat, lyman 173 flat, and lyman 358315 as well as lyman 358430. my alloy is brinell 15 and my speeds are usually under 1800 fps. on the subject of trying to set off a primer in an empty case with the boolit in question sounds like a good idea if only for my own satisfaction.
Tony

[NavyVet1959]

I was reloading some 9mm the other day and ended up with a primer that seated *sideways*. I didn't notice it at the time, but it was basically swagged into the primer pocket and very deformed. Apparently, a slow deformation does not necessarily set off the primer.

[quilbilly]

I save my Federal primers for a rifle with a light hammer strike so that might be one of the problems shown above.

[woodsie57]

If your risk tolerance is too low, you need to find another hobby. Round nose cast boolits in a tube magazine are what everybody used for decades- 100% safe? Maybe not, but close. If You want 100% safe, try collecting teddy bears

[smokeywolf]

There are so many boolit choices, is there sufficient reward to risk a round nose in the tube?

Like nearly all choices in life; risk vs reward with a good bit of common sense added to the answer.

I have loaded 45-70 cartridges with round nose boolits. But, that was after I flattened the noses and ran them through the sizer one more time. Not something I'd make a practice of, but it was kind of an experiment.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Have always used Lyman 311291 in 30/30 for my 94's without any problem of any sort. Same for 457124 in my 86 and 350482 in my M71, Admittedly not at high velocities with more than moderate recoil, but decent accuracy, no leading and clean burning....All with 3031. LLS

[Geezer in NH]

Molds are cheap...guns ain't! Blowing up a gun is not an experience to be desired. $1000 custom RUGER 44 Vaquero turned into $100 worth of salvaged parts...just got it back from ALPHA PRECISION with a 3 pound trigger a month before KA-BOOM.
Pic of the Vaquero's tube feed please??

[wiiawiwb]

I'm new to reloading and in the process of selecting a levergun so this thread is an eyeopener. My SSP is a CoAx, whose priming method I like, and always use the fingertip feel test after seating each primer. I've never used a levergun before but will make sure to reload only with a SWC, for now.

I am curious to hear the results of Longbow's test.

[Geezer in NH]

I have used RN Lyman 311299 in at least 15 lever tube feeds for over 40 years I have not had any problem that seems to be prevalent on the internet.