Reloads for self defence

[kentuckyshooter]

So i have always read that reloads are a bad idea for self defence because even with justification they may go after u on the premis that the rounds u made are desighned by u to be extra leathel. I would personal cary handloads for defence becouase they would be throughly tested by me and i would have the ability to tightly control the quality. Back in the day most defence loads were handloaded by the shooter so im kinda on the fence. Whatr everyones else thoughts.

[M-Tecs]

Massad Ayoob is the primary source for the BS of legal ramifications of using handloads. The 380 is the only one that I don't use reloads for self-defense for simply because I cannot equal the performance of Buffalo-bore 380 loads.

Some intersting reading here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183018-So-who-s-packing-cast-boolits-in-their-daily-carry-gun/page3

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?59632-No-reloads-for-self-defense

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?130724-On-the-quot-handloads-for-self-defense-quot-issue

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?138413-Lead-vs-FMJ-Reloads-vs-Store-ammo-for-fighting

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?197539-House-Protection-Firearm/page2

[jmort]

This is a topic that has been hashed out way too many times. I use reloads for self-defense but have given up arguing about it. Everyone should use what they think is best for them.

[Ihsarah]

My only warning is that if you have to use them you have the potential of being made out as a nutjob looking for an opportunity to test them. The legal and political climate around the whole thing is enough for me not to even bother.

[bedbugbilly]

+1 to what jmort says . . . .

I often carry my reloads in my 38s for SD . . and I don't load hot nor am I overly concerned about having the most powerful cartridge . . . .

Each person has to decide for themselves just what they use. . . . and like many things today . . . decide for themselves not because they "saw it on the 'net".

[Bazoo]

I would use reloads for self defense. I am in kentucky also, kentuckyshooter. I am not a lawyer, but i am an instructor. I dont think a person would have a problem using reloads for self defense in this state. If you are justifiable in the use of deadly force, then they most likely wont prosecute you. If you're questionable, then it may come into play during a trial. Make sure if you use deadly force, you're justified in doing so.

If you dont have a ky concealed carry license, i suggest getting one. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask here or message me, and i'll answer your questions to best of my ability.

[Char-Gar]

Not this zombie myth spread by Ayoob again! Not matter how many times it is disputed and proven to have no basis in fact, BAM..here it is again.

[Walkingwolf]

The best thing is to ask a second amendment attorney. John Pierce in Virginia can be reached on opencarry.org, also USER/Daniel Hawes is a second amendment attorney on the same site. There are more, but those are the two I have talked to.

Bluntly their advice to me has been you are either justified to use deadly force, or you are not. If you are not the most PC humane, perfect ammo will do you no good to save your ****. If you are clearly justified to use deadly force you can use anything you can get your hands on, stick, tool, golf club, cinder block, or a bow.

There are lot of people out there who call themselves experts, but when your **** is on the line, ask a lawyer who specializes in criminal law, and 2A law.

We had a felon use deadly force in Fayetteville recently, and the only thing he was charged with was felon in possession of a firearm. The losers on the other end were home invaders. Even though he broke the law for having a firearm the shooting was still justified. Personally myself I have not seen one case where someone was convicted on ammo alone.

[Love Life]

Using reloads for self defense is of the devil. I heard using reloads for self defense is the cause of earthquakes and hurricanes as well.

[Walkingwolf]

Using reloads for self defense is of the devil. I heard using reloads for self defense is the cause of earthquakes and hurricanes as well.

Gore said it causes global warming...

[Gunslinger1911]

Using reloads for self defense is of the devil. I heard using reloads for self defense is the cause of earthquakes and hurricanes as well.


And global warming !

[Gunslinger1911]

(I'm no expert - but, I'm still alive after 56 years).
I use my hand loads. I used to use factory. I thought long and hard, did a lot of research.
My reason, I get to train with the actual loads I'm protecting me and mine with. Not the closest I can approximate factory SD ammo - the ACTUAL ammo.
Would it mean anything in court ? Dunno. A good shoot is a good shoot, a bad shoot is a bad shoot.
Does it mean anything to me, you bet your ....

[nvbirdman]

"Had your scumbag client given me sufficient time to switch to factory loads I would have gladly done so, but due to the fact that I believed he would kill me if I didn't act immediately, I used what was already in the gun."

[kentuckyshooter]

Got everything to get my conceled carry just havent went to the sheriffs ofice yet. Been waiting to see where me and my old lady move to. Glad i did cause im landing in a difrent county. Didnt wont to get them and then go threw the truble of changing my adress. This is something i have though and read on for a while. Im cheap and hate to give 1 a round for ammo. I just never was shure about the leagal side if i was forced to use it. Also i apoligize as i have aparently brought up a well worn subject on here.

[DLCTEX]

If you don't know the answer, ask away. Knowledge is glady shared by most, begrudgingly by a few!

[Love Life]

It's a good topic.

[Walkingwolf]

Got everything to get my conceled carry just havent went to the sheriffs ofice yet. Been waiting to see where me and my old lady move to. Glad i did cause im landing in a difrent county. Didnt wont to get them and then go threw the truble of changing my adress. This is something i have though and read on for a while. Im cheap and hate to give 1 a round for ammo. I just never was shure about the leagal side if i was forced to use it. Also i apoligize as i have aparently brought up a well worn subject on here.

No need to apologize, better to ask, and get pointed in the right direction. AFAIK New Jersey is the only state that prohibits certain ammunition to citizens. And then the prohibition is dum dum ammo/hollow points. I have used reloads for SD carry for decades, a lot of the old timers used handload ammo as many depts did not supply ammo.

Keep in mind that most police officers carry factory ammo, and when they screw up it does not matter what ammo they have. Just my opinion, but I would be more careful about what I say on the internet as worrying about ammo. If a person makes comments that indicate they want to shoot somebody on the internet, it may bite them in the **** if they do. Also in court attorneys will try to discredit a witness, and that can be done by testimony not matching previous statements. Even on the internet, so keep in mind to be consistent what you put out in cyberspace just in case.

[shooter93]

Here's the deal.....if you shoot someone with factory ammo the opposing attorney will accuse you of using ammo specifically designed to rip and tear human flesh......If you shoot someone with a reload he will accuse you of tailoring ammo to specifically tear up human flesh. You are either justified in the shooting or you are not. No case has ever hinged on the type of ammo used. And a great deal will have to do with where you live. Some areas defending yourself is expected and others you would have a far greater time proving your justification. I suppose I'm lucky that where I live there have been a number of defensive shootings that the DA didn't even touch because of the attitudes here. That could also be the reason there are so few here.

[bob208]

some thoughts many years ago I hand loaded ammo for 3 small town police forces. even used my own hand cast bullets. those were the days when they carried wheelguns . colt op's, s&w heavy-duty and some ruger security-six. the load they got was 358429 in a .38spl case going at close to 1000 fps. they all liked the way it would cut through a windshield or car door.


that myth put out by massad ayoob is just plain B.S.

[kentuckyshooter]

Im a big beleaver in praticing with what u cary. A gun acts difrently with difrent loads( no realy wisdom there) so the key to being able to protect your self as i see it is to pratice the way u cary. If u shoot handloads for pratice and hot factor ammo for cary when u are face with a life and death situation ur not gona rember that the factory stuff shots x inches off poi. Also i want to say im a normal saine person and hope to never be in a situation where i am force to make such a choice. I war taught to think my way out first.

[Blackwater]

It's fashionable to think as outlined in the OP, but I'm just not a very fashionable guy. I'll carry reloads in a New York minute, and won't be worried at all about what some dipstick shyster might "TRY." Any decent lawyer on MY side ought to be able to make mincemeat out of such a snivelling show boat type shyster as that and make him look like a monkey in the process! I worked the courts for a number of years, and have seen a lot transpire. Lawyers who tried to take that tactic would most likely, IF your lawyer were able to pass the bar, be seen by even current juries for what he is, and that can very easily backfire on him if he's that dumb!

THE question that WILL be considered is whether you acted in real necessity and self defense, and little else. Your reputation may come into question, so it's good to keep that up to snuff. Your demeanor in cour is something juries probably take far more seriously than they ought to at times, but as the old saying goes, they may be right or wrong, but they're still YOUR jury, so don't be pretentious or try to paint yourself out as being more righteous than you are. Like Joe Friday in the old "Dragnet" show, just give 'em the facts, and don't worry if you show the fear you felt when you were assaulted! It's NOT your fearlessness that's on trial, it's your JUDGMENT and ACTIONS.

That's been my experience anyway, and I'll go with it. All the theoretical assumptions (remember how that word is spelt?) based on one-off idiosyncratic cases may have proceeded in some idiotic court in some overly liberal realm is NOT something on which to base one's efforts to remain un-murdered or un-seriously maimed! Just pure common sense, at least as I see it. So ... I carry reloads and just don't worry about it. "They're cheaper and all I can afford to shoot" is all you really have to say for most juries, who face the same sort of situation, usually. This just ain't rocket science, and being overly afraid of "big bad wolves" just ain't my style. If it's yours, proceed accordingly, though. We all have to make our own decisions in these matters, but sometimes I question our logic, collectively speaking.

[retread]

I have not bought and factory cartridge for any of my hand guns. The have not been fed anything but handloads. Seems like it would be kin to "falling off the wagon" to start now just for defense loads.

[dubber123]

In what probably amounts to at least several hundred thousand rounds, I do not recall once ever not putting powder in one of my reloads. I have had at least 3 factory rounds where they did just that. I carry reloads. 100% quality control all the way through. I take extra care with them, I won't touch a primer with bare hands, all charges weighed, every boolit inspected. I have 100% confidence they will go bang when needed.

[mdi]

The only thing I have to say about this old, too often brought up, old wives tale topic (other than google it if you want a long boring read), is show me one instance where handloads were a major factor for prosecution of a self defense shooter!

[dudel]

Im a big beleaver in praticing with what u cary. A gun acts difrently with difrent loads( no realy wisdom there) so the key to being able to protect your self as i see it is to pratice the way u cary. If u shoot handloads for pratice and hot factor ammo for cary when u are face with a life and death situation ur not gona rember that the factory stuff shots x inches off poi. Also i want to say im a normal saine person and hope to never be in a situation where i am force to make such a choice. I war taught to think my way out first.

With a chronograph, it's not that difficult to duplicate a factory load. Lots of armchair experts putting down Mas Ayoub; but he's got LOTS more courtroom time than most people here. A wise person, listens to those with experience, rather than those who simply agree with them. Modern factory SD rounds could use lead; but they don't. Most of the best SD projectiles aren't available to the reloader. Can you duplicate the testing protocols? Using nickel or brass? Using a low flash powder?

I save enough reloading, I can spend on a few boxes of factory rounds for SD. Bottom line, use what you want.

[Char-Gar]

With a chronograph, it's not that difficult to duplicate a factory load. Lots of armchair experts putting down Mas Ayoub; but he's got LOTS more courtroom time than most people here. A wise person, listens to those with experience, rather than those who simply agree with them. Modern factory SD rounds could use lead; but they don't. Most of the best SD projectiles aren't available to the reloader. Can you duplicate the testing protocols? Using nickel or brass? Using a low flash powder?

I save enough reloading, I can spend on a few boxes of factory rounds for SD. Bottom line, use what you want.

If a fellow wants to shoot factory load, there is no reason he should not. But, please don't do so because Ayoob says it will decrease your risk of criminal conviction or civil liability, because that is utter nonsense.

FYI, I was a member of the Texas Bar Association for 50 years and was both a Prosecutor and Criminal Defense Attorney. In my "golden years", I teach Legal Studies at a local university, training para-legals.

Believe who you wish on the matter, but I assure you there are zero experienced attorneys who will agree with that nonsense. You are correct that a wise person should listen to someone with experience.

[Outpost75]

CharGar, Grant McComber, author of "Not Wanting to Die", has similar experience to yours, but in California. He shares your view on this subject.

[Digital Dan]

I like reloads for SD. 20, 16 or 12 bore works fine.

[MtGun44]

Hogwash.

More bandwidth flushed down the bandwidth drain.

[rintinglen]

The only reason for not using reloads in SD firearms is that sometimes we are not as good as we think we are at reloading.
I have carried reloads or hand loads in my guns, but they were special. Every step was double and triple checked to ensure correctness. Only new or once fired brass was used, and batches were kept small. This was not plinking ammo run off on my Dillon in mixed-head, range pick-up brass; this was the absolute best ammunition I could make. If I had to use it, it HAD to work. If you are a meticulous loader, who is willing to diligently pursue perfection in his reloading practices, by all means feel free to carry what you craft.
However, I have seen a lot of home-made ammo that didn't go bang over the years. In the gravest extreme, can you be sure you will get a bang and not a click?

[Blackwater]

Excellent advice, Rin, and this is what I find a little disconcerting at all the posts I see about trying to put a "hurry up" on our loading. I know I'm an old curmudgeon and set in my ways, but I've come by it honestly - from experience. I just try to pay attention and not make the same mistakes twice, that's all, and some things I've learned have slowed me down, but not by much. It's more of a matter of intent coupled with attention that works for me, and I can't even remember the last dud I had. Care in construction is, and will always be, the determinant in the results we get from and for our efforts. I know many NEED to get as rapid as possible in their loading, but there's a real and vital limit to what CAN be hurried up without too much cost for the tiny difference it makes.

[AtomHeartMother]

I wouldn't hesitate to carry my reloads. I use the lowly Lee turret press though. I like its inherent quality control as I can carefully watch each step of the process. Love the idea of a progressive but for me the turret keeps me honest at the loading bench.

[Walkingwolf]

If a fellow wants to shoot factory load, there is no reason he should not. But, please don't do so because Ayoob says it will decrease your risk of criminal conviction or civil liability, because that is utter nonsense.

FYI, I was a member of the Texas Bar Association for 50 years and was both a Prosecutor and Criminal Defense Attorney. In my "golden years", I teach Legal Studies at a local university, training para-legals.

Believe who you wish on the matter, but I assure you there are zero experienced attorneys who will agree with that nonsense. You are correct that a wise person should listen to someone with experience.
+100 When in doubt, ask an attorney. They have walked the walk, and are not self invented.

[jonp]

So i have always read that reloads are a bad idea for self defence because even with justification they may go after u on the premis that the rounds u made are desighned by u to be extra leathel. I would personal cary handloads for defence becouase they would be throughly tested by me and i would have the ability to tightly control the quality. Back in the day most defence loads were handloaded by the shooter so im kinda on the fence. Whatr everyones else thoughts.

The urban legend that keeps on giving

[lightload]

I'm fortunate to have an ample supply of Winchester's latest law enforcement ammo, and I can't improve these loads' performance. Otherwise, I'd have no qualms using my reloads. By the way, out of this batch of "super ammo", I found one round that would not chamber. The case mouth was butchered during the factory loading process. You must inspect factory ammo, or you might have a nasty surprise.