Deer hunting with a suppressed 300 blk.

[Vann]

I have a friend coming over to day who wants to work up a load for his ssuppressed 300 blk. The other day before I had to go into work we played with it a bit using a lyman 311041 and 311284. He keeps wanting to use the heavier bullet but I'm leaning more towards the 311041 or a 170gr jacketed 30-30 bullet.

I'm not really big on trying to kill a deer with subsonic velocity. I know it will do it but i don't believe that there will be enough bullet upset for expansion. Most of my cast hunting bullets are ww or water dropped ww.
I'm thinking of using the softer ww that I have powder coated. Any thoughts or ideas?

[Larry Gibson]

The 311041 cast of 40-1 alloy or pure lead if it will cast well if HP'd to 5/16" deep with the Forster 1/8" HP tool will expand decently down to around 800 fps. That would be my choice and if just subsonic I would keep shots to under 75 yards.

Larry Gibson

[petroid]

You should be able to push that 311041 about 1800fps with good accuracy. It will be a better choice than the round nose bullet at a much lower velocity.

[Vann]

Larry, that sounds good. I'm going to push them as fast as possible without having a supersonic crack. The other day we tried 5 grains of red dot and we couldn't believe the bullet was leaving the barrel, until we tried it without the suppressor.

[runfiverun]

3.5 grs of a fast pistol powder will get them out the barrel and accurately if you use a rifle primer.
for slow moving projectiles to have penetration you need weight, the mass of the boolit will keep it moving.
adding mush to the lighter boolit will slow it down in the animal and an exit is going to be iffy at best.

my call would be to lean towards the heavier softer boolit [flat nosed] and push it to the edge.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, that sounds good. I'm going to push them as fast as possible without having a supersonic crack. The other day we tried 5 grains of red dot and we couldn't believe the bullet was leaving the barrel, until we tried it without the suppressor.

That's the best way. Increase the powder charge until it just cracks and then back of just a tudge. Best to then test it at the temperature you'll be hunting at as temperature and barometric pressure can effect when it will crack. When it cracks is also based on the speed of the air passing around the bullet, not the actual speed of the bullet in relation to the speed of sound. The initial muzzle exit stability of the bullet also effects when it will crack. With the flat blunt nose of the 311041 cracking can easily occure with just a small increase in velocity if you are too close to the actual barrier. It's on of the trade offs of having that bullet shape for terminal effect. I've found the 311041HP to be the most terminally effective 30 cal cast bullet at subsonic velociites for out to 100 yard shooting.

Larry Gibson

[Vann]

Larry, I love Red dot powder. Just out of curiosity I was wondering if you would suggest that I try a different powder? I know everyone has a preference, and was wondering what you would use?

[Digital Dan]

Bullseye works well for such things.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullseye works well for such things.

+1.

My preference in order for use in the .308W is Bullseye, Red Dot then Unique.....all w/o any wad or fillers. In the BO I suspect Bullseye and Red Dot would be the best as they worked the best for me with suppressed sub sonic 30 Carbine, 7.62x39 and 30-30 rifles.

Larry Gibson

[Vann]

Ok, I'll have to give bullseye a go and see how it does.

Thanks for the input guys, we never got around to working a load up the other day. We were to busy setting up the MEC shotshell loader he had just bought. we'll probably get around to loading the 300 blk sometime this week.

Happy shooting,
Vann

[Digital Dan]

The pic below was fired recently with a .30-30

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Subs2_zpsfkszn5xn.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Subs2_zpsfkszn5xn.jpg.html)

[Gunnut 45/454]

Can't use fast pistol powders in the 300 Blk out unless your using a Bolt gun as they will not cycle an AR. Use 12-14 gr of 4227. Or 8-12 gr of LiL'Gun.

[NavyVet1959]

Can't use fast pistol powders in the 300 Blk out unless your using a Bolt gun as they will not cycle an AR. Use 12-14 gr of 4227. Or 8-12 gr of LiL'Gun.

Yeah... I tried getting a Red Dot load to cycle the action in my .300 AAC AR and after getting to the point of well-flattened (pistol) primers, I gave up on it.

But that was back when I had an alignment issue with my barrel's gas port and the gas block. I even had problems with 4227 in that configuration. I've subsequently fixed the alignment issue, but I haven't revisited Red Dot in the AR though.

[Vann]

I agree, fast pistol powders will not cycle an AR. We're loading for a Ruger American so we can get by with it. We've been do tied up lately that we still haven't gotten back to this project yet. Hopefully we'll get it done soon.


Thanks guy's
Vann

[725]

Seems to me that if you are going slow (sub-sonic), you should increase the weight. KE=1/2W x V squared. For the sake of the animal, ensure you have enough umph your load.

[NavyVet1959]

Seems to me that if you are going slow (sub-sonic), you should increase the weight. KE=1/2W x V squared. For the sake of the animal, ensure you have enough umph your load.

Actually, it's mass, not weight if you want the units to work out.

[MT Chambers]

Sorry but I don't believe that shooting animals is a game where people see how low powered they can go to take game humanely. For years the 30/30 with it's 170 grain bullet at 2100 fps has been considered minimal, I agree!!

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry but I don't believe that shooting animals is a game where people see how low powered they can go to take game humanely. For years the 30/30 with it's 170 grain bullet at 2100 fps has been considered minimal, I agree!!

Wow, that should upset most of the handgun hunters....:shock:

Personally I found out a long time ago that the size of deer, the distances of shooting and the methods of "hunting" vary greatly across the country. I have killed numerous deer with handguns from the .38 SPL to the 45 Colt and with the 311041 cast soft as suggested at 1050 fps out of my own suppressed .308W. As with most things the requirement to effectively kill deer, in my opinion, is not on what is used but on how it is used. Both are the responsibility of the hunter and can not be mandated effectively. Just my own opinion.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

How does the old saying go? It's where you put the little hole not how big the hole is. In nearly 50 years of hunting I've found this to be true.
Granted a more powerful weapon gives you a little leeway but it still comes down to shot placement and responsible hunting skills.

When I was young killing a deer was top priority. As I get older and more experienced I find myself hunting with lesser powered weapons. If I'm not confidant in the shot I pass. I only need two or three deer a year. I want to hunt all season. I tend to let a lot of deer walk on by.
To each his own.

[NavyVet1959]

Sorry but I don't believe that shooting animals is a game where people see how low powered they can go to take game humanely. For years the 30/30 with it's 170 grain bullet at 2100 fps has been considered minimal, I agree!!

Perhaps, but it's also nice to have some meat left over after you shoot them. If you can poke a hole through both lungs, they're not going to be running *too* far. Any energy the bullet has after going through the animal is wasted.

[Vann]

Well the way I see it this round was designed to be used on human targets, suppressed. If it's good enough to kill a human I guess it'll kill a deer.

On the flip side my deer hunting cartridge of choice is a 338 Win Mag. I've never lost a deer while using one. Of course I only take sure shots and have no problem letting an animal walk.

[leadman]

Many, many years ago I killed a deer with a 22LR. Range was short.
I have a 300 Whisper contender 18" barrel and the Lyman 314299 with 11.5grs of WC680 behind it shoots real well. Velocity is around 1,150 fps. Don't know how this would work with the can.
I have wondered if it would cycle an AR.
I did kill a couple deer with the Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip with 18grs of W296 for a charge. Definitely not subsonic but very accurate and should be good for around 150 yards at least.
Good luck.

[NavyVet1959]

On the flip side my deer hunting cartridge of choice is a 338 Win Mag. I've never lost a deer while using one. Of course I only take sure shots and have no problem letting an animal walk.

I have another requirement. It must be a shot where I'm not going to have to be exerting too much energy in getting the animal back to my truck. That hauling a dead animal a mile or more through the woods lost it's glamour a couple of decades ago for me.

Deer vary quite a bit around the US. I've seen some up north that I would want a .30-06 for. Around here, a .45ACP would be plenty. The neighborhood does are a bit on the small size. Not quite as small as Key deer, but close.

[MT Chambers]

Alot of those military cals. are actually meant to wound humans, a slow moving .30 cal. bullet will do just that, not really good on game animals.

[wordsmith]

I've personally given up on subsonic suppressed 30 cal hunting, as I just don't want to deal with the animal doing the inevitable 50-100 yard (or unrecoverable) sprint through thick impenetrable brush, but to each their own. I would characterize it as worse than hunting with compound bow, maybe much like using a bullet or field tip. That said, I have been pleased with the blackoutbullets.com subsonic bullets for subsonic hunting. Reasonably priced and work as well as can be expected, given the limited energies of subsonic hunting. Availability has been spotty of late, however.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?249579-300-Blackout-Cast-Hunting-Bullets-Calling-all-Expansion-Experts!!

[xacex]

Some of you that think it is easy to hunt with 300 blk subsonic should read this scientific research paper on the subject. I know it can be done, but it takes a specialized cast bullet that I am not going to go into an explanation of, or a specialized commercial bullet along with perfect placement to drop a deer quickly. And yes, they do take into account, and test Lehigh Defense fragmenting subsonic copper bullets.

"Whereas a .30 caliber bullet is typically of sufficient size and weight to rapidly incapacitate medium-sized game animals when fired at full power rifle velocities, our preliminary results suggest that.30 caliber bullets fired at subsonic velocities would not cause sufficient damage to rapidly incapacitate medium-sized game, unless the heart, brain, or spine was directly hit by the bullet" Caudell et al., (2013).

Caudell, Joe N., M. W. C. T. T. (2013). Initial Evidence for the Effectiveness of Subsonic .308 Ammunition for Use in Wildlife Damage Management. In Wildlife Damage Management Conferences -- Proceedings (pp. 1–8). Lincoln: University of Nebraska. Retrieved from http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1168&context=icwdm_wdmconfproc

[Hamish]

"As with most things the requirement to effectively kill deer, in my opinion, is not on what is used but on how it is used. Both are the responsibility of the hunter and can not be mandated effectively." LG

100% in agreement. If only 100% of those who go afield had a competent grasp of the physiology, their equipment, and the force of will to use it to its maximum lethality,,,,,.

[Geezer in NH]

I will pass animals deserve better. I am not a hunting anti but I KILL what I do so the animal does not suffer.

The whole 300 blackout suppressed does not impress me for that.

In fact it seems it has become a I cause a can thing.

When you must ask it seems you know you are ????

I use my NFA SB SUP 9mm for small to medium results deer, NO Not to far apart in killing power IMHO

[BrentD]

I don't know whether it can or can't kill a deer effectively or not. I suppose it matters on what shots you are willing pass up and how good and patient you are at getting the shots that will work.

But, why? What is the allure of shooting a deer with a suppressed and anemic rifle? Is there a real practical reason for this?

[NavyVet1959]

But, why? What is the allure of shooting a deer with a suppressed and anemic rifle? Is there a real practical reason for this?

Maybe they hope that it will be quiet enough to allow them to take multiple deer? That is a reason that is often used by those shooting hogs with suppressed rifles.

Maybe they are hunting in areas which are legal, but the local populace has been infiltrated by city dwellers who get all bent out of shape when they hear gunfire?

Maybe they are just trying to find a justification for the money they spent on the suppressor and tax stamp? :)

[BrentD]

Yeah, maybe. Lots of maybes. My guess is it is the last one.

[xacex]

I still use a suppressor for 300 blackout, but shoot supersonic bullets. With a 8.5" barrel, and a 7.5" suppressor I am the same length as a regular rifle, but the sound is less than a .22lr produces. Confuses game because they cannot determine the direction of the shot, and saves my hearing. Subsonic suppressed is for bunnies, hogs, and coyotes. When Mihec's 300 blk bullet is produced I will use a 311410 long hollow point pin, and the foil method to get it to break into 3 pieces on impact. If I can get it to break apart, and tumble quickly in my tests I may try it out on something bigger than a yote. The key is rapidly incapacitate the animal.

[OnHoPr]

I think I will spit out some pros and cons gibberish on this one. If it is going to be subsonic then it should be a heavier boolit and HPed. I really don't think personally that it is ethical though. But, as LG stated mandating the whole is not good. A broadside shot at the feeder 50 yds away and tracking ground then go for it if it floats your boat.

One of my first tracking lessons back 35 years ago was the peoples I was visiting son's first deer season @ 14 YO. He was sitting in a winter wheat field on kneeling sitting on his heels. He was armed with a 24" side by side 12 ga with 2 3/4" mag 00 buck 12 pellets almost a hundred yards away from a 4 or 5 acre corner pine plantation and had a 1/4 mi of field behind him. :confused::neutral: Anyways a small group of deer came loping across the field from behind him heading towards the pines. He took a shot. He walked back to the house and I was there and his ma asked if I would go take a look with him as he said when one of the does had a little stutter while jumping the fence into the pines. He and I went back to look at things and his dad and uncle showed up just a little latter. After about 50 yds into the pines you could see where the needles were starting to show a little forward skid and needles kicked up in front of the track unusually. The deer ran through the pines and crossed a road and we found it laying right up against the fence. The dad and uncle said that the fence stopped it and it could of gone quite a bit further on its run. One 00 buck hit that doe dead center lungs mass and was a complete pass through of both lungs and hair. The distance traveled I would guess was a touch over 300 yds before the fence stopped her. It was a decent size doe of 100 to 120 lb class. It was about a 75 yd shot.

That subsonic might not make to much more damage than that 00 buck at any subsonic speed shot through the lungs. I know if I went down into the big cedar swamp along the river gruntin & rattlin the last week of season I wouldn't anything much less than an 06 for a possible any angle moving shot on a 250 dressed buck. I wouldn't be doing it with a full house 30-30. I also don't mind spending 1500 or so lbs of energy in a deers boiler room with hydrostatic & (IMO pneumatic shock) and having 1200 lbs of energy still going after the deer. It is still better than having a pass through with 600 lbs in the boiler room and 600 lbs still going after the pass through. Sometimes it might be necessary and sometimes it might not be necessary. I am starting to notice that speeds below the 2000 fps mark are usually more effective with a larger caliber of general shooting of game.

[Electric88]

When Mihec's 300 blk bullet is produced I will use a 311410 long hollow point pin, and the foil method to get it to break into 3 pieces on impact. If I can get it to break apart, and tumble quickly in my tests I may try it out on something bigger than a yote. The key is rapidly incapacitate the animal.

What is the foil method? I have not heard of this

[wordsmith]

...When Mihec's 300 blk bullet is produced I will use a 311410 long hollow point pin...

Sounds like you're on the never ending wait list as well...

I've been hoping he'll finally make this one, and had planned to do exactly the same thing.

[xacex]

What is the foil method? I have not heard of this
Foil or parchment paper is put between the mold halves and cast within the bullet with just a small section in front, and rear section of the bullet holding the halves. In the case of the mihec 300blk bullet you would put the foil strip below the hollow point, and to the first drive band as a maximum. You effectively have a bullet that will expand on impact, and split into two front halves, and a base all going different directions on impact.

Sounds like you're on the never ending wait list as well...

I've been hoping he'll finally make this one, and had planned to do exactly the same thing.
Yes, seems never-ending, but the 311410 took forever it seemed as well. Talked with 45.2.1 and he assured me it is still going fine, but the type of bullet is difficult to machine a mold for. We will get them in time, and they will be fantastic. I love the 311410 in the blackout, and have shot several thousand already. It is the number one contributor to the decline of my lead stocks since I received it.

[Electric88]

Foil or parchment paper is put between the mold halves and cast within the bullet with just a small section in front, and rear section of the bullet holding the halves. In the case of the mihec 300blk bullet you would put the foil strip below the hollow point, and to the first drive band as a maximum. You effectively have a bullet that will expand on impact, and split into two front halves, and a base all going different directions on impact.

Yes, seems never-ending, but the 311410 took forever it seemed as well. Talked with 45.2.1 and he assured me it is still going fine, but the type of bullet is difficult to machine a mold for. We will get them in time, and they will be fantastic. I love the 311410 in the blackout, and have shot several thousand already. It is the number one contributor to the decline of my lead stocks since I received it.

That is very interesting... I might have to re-add my name to the group buy here shortly, seeing as funds have become available :D

[Blammer]

Alot of those military cals. are actually meant to wound humans, a slow moving .30 cal. bullet will do just that, not really good on game animals.


hahahaha, that is so funny!

I haven't laughed that hard in a while.