1886 50-110 Take Down. Should I have one made? Porn added

[Just Duke]

:drinks:

[James C. Snodgrass]

All I can say is DAMN, thats a nice piece only thing wrong is my name ain't Gates.:mrgreen:

[xtimberman]

Every fellow should have one really nice firearm, Duke!

This gun is along the lines of what Theo. Roosevelt would've ordered from Winchester (our only handloading US President, BTW). He was very picky, too - often returning them several times with scolding letters until he was pleased. Ah, the good ol' days - when the customer was always right - unlike now when the gunmaker/gunsmith is always right.

The pad is actually leather-covered rubber. You see this feature on many fine English double rifles. They know how to stretch the thin leather over the pad and tuck it in underneath.

xtm

[garandsrus]

Duke,

Can you post the rest of the note that talks about the "Johnson" Winchester?

If I ever bought a collectible gun, I would not alter it as it would destroy much of the collector value. The $1000 rebarrel/ream might really cost $20000 based on the sticker price of this rifle.

The tag says that it is a 50-110 so why would you send it out to make it a 50-110????

John

[EDK]

I've been thinking of getting a MARLIN 1895 converted to 50/110 or 50 Alaskan; need to do some reading about feasibility. Refer to Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST on the Winchesters and some loading data.

I have in excess of $3500 in LEAH (my treasured 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS; SHILOH fans know who Lucinda, Ellen and Heather are!) and the Montana Vintage Arms period telescope I want is another $1000. AND WORTH EVERY PENNY AND THEN SOME! When you pull that looong 34 inch barrel out of the case and lay out those big cartridges, people know you're shooting something serious.

Turnbull's work isn't cheap, but well worth the price. Look for some fairly recent RIFLE/HANDLOADER magazines for articles on his work and his proprietary cartridge.

Duke, you are the man! It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't been there the joy of tucking that magnificent firearm under your arm or into your holster...the joy of engraved or case hardened steel, bluing you can see into, high end walnut or ivory, any other pride enhancing details.

I'll pass on the smokin' hot GF---even Vegas class!--and take the custom SHARPS/WINCHESTER/MARLIN/RUGER/COLT/SMITH&WESSON. A memory versus the treasure in my hand? A NO BRAINER!!!

:cbpour: :redneck: :Fire:

[garandsrus]

That is not my guns sir. Just thought I thought I would share a pic of a gun I'd like to make mine look like.

Example;
1 1886 TD Winchester 45-70 $1500.00
Rebarreling using existing barrel to 50-110 $1000.00
Total; $2500.00
Lifetime of happy shooting pleasure, Priceless :-D

In that case, you made a good choice, have fun!

Your first post reads that you are going to buy the pictured rifle and then send it out to get re-chambered.

John

[Nrut]

One of the nicest lever actions I have ever seen...Duke you might consider getting Trunbull to make you up a "475 Turnbull"...He took one to Africa and shot a couple real nice Cape Buffalo with it...:)

[charger 1]

I've been thinking of getting a MARLIN 1895 converted to 50/110 or 50 Alaskan; need to do some reading about feasibility. Refer to Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST on the Winchesters and some loading data.



:cbpour: :redneck: :Fire:


Pass on the 95. too much receiver work req'd for what you get when yer done. I've searched and researched this to death. Get a smokeless 86 or 71 to do your build on. Its worth it in the long run. Some time open the action of a marlin 95, stick a flashlight in and look at how much meat there is tween barrel and mag tube

[Frank46]

I don't know if its my eyes. But take a close look at the bbl on one of the pics. But isn't the bead sight in backwards??. The bead appears to be facing forward with the sloped portion facing the rear. Frank

[bigbear]

I've been thinking of getting a MARLIN 1895 converted to 50/110 or 50 Alaskan; need to do some reading about feasibility. Refer to Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST on the Winchesters and some loading data.

I have in excess of $3500 in LEAH (my treasured 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS; SHILOH fans know who Lucinda, Ellen and Heather are!) and the Montana Vintage Arms period telescope I want is another $1000. AND WORTH EVERY PENNY AND THEN SOME! When you pull that looong 34 inch barrel out of the case and lay out those big cartridges, people know you're shooting something serious.

Turnbull's work isn't cheap, but well worth the price. Look for some fairly recent RIFLE/HANDLOADER magazines for articles on his work and his proprietary cartridge.

Duke, you are the man! It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't been there the joy of tucking that magnificent firearm under your arm or into your holster...the joy of engraved or case hardened steel, bluing you can see into, high end walnut or ivory, any other pride enhancing details.

I'll pass on the smokin' hot GF---even Vegas class!--and take the custom SHARPS/WINCHESTER/MARLIN/RUGER/COLT/SMITH&WESSON. A memory versus the treasure in my hand? A NO BRAINER!!!

:cbpour: :redneck: :Fire:You also won't have to give up your job as Govenor of the State of (Your choice). Lovely rifle for sure.

[Bullshop]

G'Day Duke
Thanks for calling. It was a plesent conversation. You helped me avoid cutting fire wood for an hour. Eventually my hunger would have gotten the best of me even if I hadnt had that coughing fit, sorry bout that. We do all our cooking on a wood cook stove so if I dont cut I dont eat.
Here is a pic of my 86 I took on 4/1/08. I was cought up on orders so packed up a snow maching and headed for the hills. I only spent one night in this little nest I made but was hopeing to stay longer. The snow trails were getting thin on the way in and it stayed near 40f all night. Next day was warm so I thought I better get out so I wouldnt have to run on bare ground.
Didnt battle any bear but did find a good spot to put a bait. Next trip will be by 4 wheeler. Just got a couple big orders so will have to get caught up again.
Dont know how the pic turned out but here goes anyway.
This was my quiet little nest for a couple days.
Blessings
BIC/BS


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010001-5.jpg

[Bullshop]

Well Sir I aint very good at takin pictures but here is a try.
The rifle, some loaded cartridges, and some boolits from the Mt mold I had Dan cut.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010009-2.jpg

[Just Duke]

Now if I can just find the dies. :(

[6pt-sika]

Now if I can just find the dies. :(

Lyman may sell them !

If not try CH4D [smilie=1:

[buckshot&brass]

Don't she look sweet !!!

[xtimberman]

Now if I can just find the dies. :(

Duke,

If you can't get your hands on any right away, I'll lend you my RCBS .50-70 WCF die set with the shellholder until you do. I think it'll work OK, The big 50 cal shellholders can be hard to find, too.

xtm

[Poohgyrr]

:drinks:

Appreciate all the great pics. And you guys are hard on the pocketbook...

:mrgreen:

[charger 1]

Does wild west still have any lee sets for sale? I assume yer talkin 50 ak.. Just to turn yer crank a bit more Duke, heres 50 AK with one of MM's 460 grain creations, along side 45/70/RCBS 405. The 50 ak on pistol gripped 86 vwith Douglas 1;26 26" pipe half mag should be home any day now.. Hey bullshop, what all did you do to give forend dovetail extra support?
http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1151.JPG

[6pt-sika]

I assume yer talkin 50 ak..http://usera.imagecave.com/chargerdive/HPIM1151.JPG


I think he is after 50-110WCF not 50AK [smilie=1:

[6pt-sika]

By the way the best deal I have heard of lately for a set of 50AK dies is Hornady .

I think you can get a set of them for less then $70 :drinks:

[6pt-sika]

Hornady does not show them on their website.


Midway has Hornady 50 AK dies IN STOCK for $67.99 [smilie=1:

[6pt-sika]

Can you load 50-110 ammo with the 50AK dies?



I'm pretty sure you cannot .

[xtimberman]

I do believe that you can load 50-110WCF on .50-70WCF dies.

[JesterGrin_1]

The only draw back with the 50-70 dies is that you can not full size resize them. But if you only shoot them in one rifle that would be fine as all you would really need to do is neck size them for the correct crimp and pressure to hold the bullet in place as this will also help in reduced gas loss in the chamber past the case. :)

[Bullshop]

I had my rifle cut with a 2.3" chamber, the 50/110 is 2.4" and the 50/90 is 2.5"
The 50/70 and 50/90 use the same case head but the 50/110 uses a smaller thinner rim.
The 348 win was an off shoot of the 50/110 case so we can reverce engineer the 348 case to a 50 cal. Without special tools it is impossible to consistantly get a 2.4" case by fire forming and this is why I had my chamber cut a bit short.
I have both RCBS 50/110 dies and Lyman 50/70 dies and can load with both sets. The only problem I have with the 50/110 dies is that because my chamber is a bit short I can not crimp with them and that is why I got the 50/70 die. Since the 50/70 is 1.75" that die can be backed off a bit to crimp my 2.3" cases.
One thing to consider is will you be shooting boolits at about .512" or bullets at .510"
Reformed 348 brass is thinner than the starline brass. What I found is with the expander ball in my dies I get a good fit in reformed 348 brass with .512" boolits but .510"ullets dont hold so good. If you are going to shoot .510" bullets go with Starline brass.
When I got my Lyman 50/70 dies they were about $30.00 but that has been awhile.
Hope this info may help a bit.
Sorry but I dont feel like chasing load data right now. I just want to sit here and relax.
Forgive me?
BIC/BS

[Just Duke]

I had my rifle cut with a 2.3" chamber, the 50/110 is 2.4" and the 50/90 is 2.5"
The 50/70 and 50/90 use the same case head but the 50/110 uses a smaller thinner rim.
The 348 win was an off shoot of the 50/110 case so we can reverce engineer the 348 case to a 50 cal. Without special tools it is impossible to consistantly get a 2.4" case by fire forming and this is why I had my chamber cut a bit short.
I have both RCBS 50/110 dies and Lyman 50/70 dies and can load with both sets. The only problem I have with the 50/110 dies is that because my chamber is a bit short I can not crimp with them and that is why I got the 50/70 die. Since the 50/70 is 1.75" that die can be backed off a bit to crimp my 2.3" cases.
One thing to consider is will you be shooting boolits at about .512" or bullets at .510"
Reformed 348 brass is thinner than the starline brass. What I found is with the expander ball in my dies I get a good fit in reformed 348 brass with .512" boolits but .510"ullets dont hold so good. If you are going to shoot .510" bullets go with Starline brass.
When I got my Lyman 50/70 dies they were about $30.00 but that has been awhile.
Hope this info may help a bit.
Sorry but I dont feel like chasing load data right now. I just want to sit here and relax.
Forgive me?
BIC/BS


That was some great info Bullshop and thanks.
Would the 50-110 RCBS Dies be on the market? ;)

[Just Duke]

The doner rifle arrived. So looks like she gets sent off.

[xtimberman]

Duke,

Sent you a PM.

xtm

[Just Duke]

Got it. Thanks XT ;)

[Just Duke]

CRAP! CRAP! CRAP!

I just got off the phone with Doug Turnball and he was the nicest guy to talk to. He told me unless I was either shooting 300 grain bullets out of the gun that the conversion would not work unless some other if-ey mods were made. In other words a 500 grain bullet will not work in the gun. He did say I could have it converted to 50-110 and shoot 50 Alaskan in it which is not a period cartridge.
Well ....I got a backup gun for my backup gun. <sad face>
:groner: :groner: :groner:

Guess im done :[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[charger 1]

CRAP! CRAP! CRAP!

I just got off the phone with Doug Turnball and he was the nicest guy to talk to. He told me unless I was either shooting 300 grain bullets out of the gun that the conversion would not work unless some other if-ey mods were made. In other words a 500 grain bullet will not work in the gun. He did say I could have it converted to 50-110 and shoot 50 Alaskan in it which is not a period cartridge.
Well ....I got a backup gun for my backup gun. <sad face>
:groner: :groner: :groner:

Guess im done :[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

Can I ask why period cartridge is so important when as soon as you touch it, it wont be period correct anyhoo?Go 50 ak. That'll hump out all the umpah ya need and feed as smooth as a silk worms pecker

[Just Duke]

Can I ask why period cartridge is so important when as soon as you touch it, it wont be period correct anyhoo?Go 50 ak. That'll hump out all the umpah ya need and feed as smooth as a silk worms pecker

If you were born 100 years to late you would understand.
I will be considering the 50 AK for awhile.

[Bullshop]

The only differance between the 50/110 and the 50 AK is .2" case length longer for the 50/110.
The real differance is you can fire form 348 cases to 2.2" and you cant for the 2.4" case.
The 348 case is the available parrent case for both. The real truth is the 348 was origonally made from the 50/110 case so in a kinda round about way the parrent case for the 50/110 is the 50/110. Wierd !
BIC/BS

[JFE]

Duke,

I saw your post and the rifle you featured is a very nice piece indeed. I thought you might appreciate some info and experiences I have had with a 50/110 - it might save you some heart ache.

I was going to have a 50/110 made up but ended up buying one made in Oz instead. It was made up on a Win repro 1886. Someone had it made up and then lost interest in it. The conversion is not straight forward but the local gunsmith that built it really knew what he was doing. It feeds and functions flawlessly. The main issue is getting the conversions to feed long nose bullets. Also even the early 1886's never used to load and cycle longer nose bullets and the early twist was too slow for heavier bullets.

BTW its not a simple rebore or re-barrel either - there is a lot of internal work that need to be done to accommodate the larger cartridge and stop the magazine from tearing itself off under recoil. The magazine effectively acts like a slide hammer so some beefing up is required to keep the magazine in place.

I have a set of CH-4D dies and their quality is not in the same league as the major manufacturers. External finish is not up to par and one niggling issue is that there isnt enough adjustment in the seating stem to seat short ogive bullets. I also bought a Lyman M-die in 50-90 and Lyman .512 sizer. Both work perfectly.

The only bullets I have been using so far are light cast (Lyman 515139) and Bertram 440 gr jacketed bullets designed for the 500 BPE (these are a flat tip but bullet shape and cannelure location are not right for use in the 50/110). These are made from jackets designed for the 50 BMG which are quite thick. I have purchased a few other moulds (RCBS 50-450, Lyman 518142 & Lyman 515141) which will arrive soon. These should round me out on PB styles and I'll trade out what doesnt suit. I'll order a GC mould from MM in due course - probably around 500-500 gr.

You need to be aware that there are at least three '50 cal' GC types around. Hornady make one for the 500 S&W and Gator make 2, a long shank and short shank 512 diam. The point being you need to make sure any GC cast design will take the GC you select.

If you are looking to build a rifle you should also check with Dave Clay in Texas. I was considering him and Turnbull before the rifle I ended up buying became available. In his conversions Dave Clay uses a heavier mag tube and puts a bulge in it (like Marlin do in the 1895) to allow more flexibility in cycling longer bullet.

A word of advice on stock style. These rifles when loaded to their potential do recoil -you can push these harder than a 458 mag. You might want to consider having a buttstock made to provide a straighter comb and build in some cast to have the rifle pull away from your face under recoil like what a proper big game rifle stock should do. Also have the stock relieved just behind the tang to prevent the tang becoming a log splitter.

The other issue is sighting equipment. If you switch lloads you will want a peep and something fairly robust is required. The new Lyman 66 designed for the 1886/71 are now made out of aluminium and are not robust like the older steel ones used to be. It took some time but I have I have acquired several Sako detachable peep sights and will be having a machinist make up a base to D&T onto the back of the bolt (sort of like the sights Winchester used to fit to the model 71 at one time). The idea being the Sako sights will be sighted in for various loads. This should make for a very rugged sight that can be quickly changed.

Hope this helps.

Joe

[Naphtali]

The 50-110/50 Express uses a 2.4-inch case on a maximum cartridge length of 2.88 inches (more realistically 2.75 inches). When converting a rifle, you can specify a rate of twist compatible with longer bullets Longer, heavier cast bullets, unless they are WFNs, will have a nose length from the crimp groove exceeding .48 inch. .

How do you load longer, heavier cast bullets? Or do you acquire cast bullet molds without a crimp groove?

Apparently, the 475 Turnbull, 450 Alaskan, and 348 WCF take advantage of the M1886/M71's available cartridge length by using a shorter case to allow room for longer bullet noses.

[EDK]

IDAHO SHARPSHOOTER (my brother) and I have a deal pending on a 50/110 he had made up awhile back from a model 71 Winchester. He has dies, a mould and brass. If you're interested in it, send him an email or PM and I'll let you have the deal instead. I like the 50s a lot, but there are always other projects to replace the Winchester.

So many things to do, so little money and time.

:Fire: :cbpour: :redneck:

[Mike8623]

OK Boys, I've got a question here that kinda pertains to this post or at least has been mentioned.......I apolozige ahead of time for getting on a side track..........but I've asked this before and I hope someone will give me a good answer and one that I can understand.......

someone mentioned here large grain bullets 450-to say 600 and that if I read the post right they are better stabilized in fast twist barrels, to their point I've also read this before and it seems all the 50-110 barrels or at least a lot of them are provided in 26 or faster twist. The confusion comes in the Greenhill formula I use............if you plug in say a 500 grain bullet and then take into account the bullet length the formula seems to indicate a heavier faster bullet needs a much much slower twist.............high 30 to low 50's and that the bullet to maximize accuracy would have to driven at much slower speed like under a 1000..................so PLEASE can someone tell me which is right?

[John Taylor]

Well Mike, the original 50-110 started with a 1 in 60" twist then went to a 1 in 56". Now this is the true 50-110 with a 300 grain bullet. The 50-100-450 started with a 1 in 48" twist. This is the same brass with a 450 grain bullet and 100 grains of powder. From what I understand the later rifles had a faster twist but I have not had a chance to verify it as I have not seen a later 50-100 barrel. Most of the rifles I rebarrel in 50 cal get a 1 in 28 twist because every one wants to shoot the big heavy bullets. Green mountain makes a 50 barrel with a 1 in 56 twist but you would need to stay with the 300 grain bullet or they would tumble. I had a 1 in 36 twist on my old 50-70 and the 500 grain would tumble at 200 yards.
I'm in the process of making a 50-100 out of a Winchester 71. It is getting a 30" long octagon barrel with a 1 in 28 twist. It has been a slow process, still need to octagon the barrel but I have the action and wood. Need to make up a long magazine also, probably have to take two and put them together because Wisner's quit selling the long ones.
Several years ago I had a shop send in 22 Winchester 1886 rifles to rebarrel, about half were made into 50 caliber.