1899 Krag or 03A3 springfield

[murf6656]

I have been thinking of buying an all ready sporterized rifle for cast bullet shooting, and woods deer hunting at ranges under 100 yards. The rifles I am looking at are an 1899 Krag carbine that has had a pistol grip, and Weaver scope in a side mount added. And an 03a3 Springfield in a pretty nice Walnut sporter stock with weaver bases,a modern no name scope, and a Bueller style safety. I am leaning towards the Krag, I all ready have brass and dies that I inherited with my dads 30" 1898 rifle and it seems a little more interesting to me. What do you guys think?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I think you're leaning toward the Krag, and for under 100 yards hunting as you describe it's a good choice. BUT (and there always is one) the 03A3 is a better rifle, and the 30-06 cartridge is a better cartridge. Either one should suit your purpose.

[smokeywolf]

Hard to find a sporter that has been done right. Although I do love the Krag's smooth action and the convenience of the loading gate, they were throated for a pretty long 220 grain bullet sometimes making it a little more difficult to establish a 150 to 168 grain boolit plinking load that will perform well.
The Springfield is accepting of a wider variety of boolit/load variations. You can load them down to varmint levels or up to moose levels.

I have to admit that aesthetics would play a pretty big part for me too. I've seen some pretty nicely done sporterizing of Krags and Springfields and I've seen some real sad bubba jobs.

[Char-Gar]

I like Krags having four of them, boy my counsel is to get the 03. They are stronger, more accurate and easier to find a good cast bullet load.

[JMax]

The 03 is my choice for hunting due to load flexibility, availability of inexpensive nice sporters plus critical replacement parts are available.

[Mk42gunner]

Krags are fun to play with, especially the carbines. 03A3's are a much more versatile rifle, although I seriously doubt you will ever find one as slick to operate as a Krag.

If you can't buy both then decide, I would get the Springfield.

Robert

[WineMan]

Krags are like an older relative. Really nice, great in their youth (Shortest duration of an American service rifle) and from another era. The M1903A3, while not a spring chicken, is the pinnacle of US bolt rifle development. Nickle Steel, 30-06, and not too heavy, what more could you want? Sure the Krag action and the early M1903's actions are butter smooth. Their sights are good but fragile and prone to damage in the field. If you want something to shoot low powered cast, the Krag is a good choice with its rimmed cartridge and long neck, plus plenty of windage and elevation on the rear sight. Walk into any Wal-Mart and 30-06 is there, 30-40 Krag, not so much. With the right bullets, the Krag can probably take any North American game animal, but you better be fairly close. The 30-06 can for sure take any game and is good for longer ranges. If I had a choice it would be both, but restricted to only one it would be the 03A3.

Dave

[303Guy]

From what I read on cast boolit shooting, the 30-06 in general seems to be a pretty accurate cast boolit cartridge. If I were faced the such a choice I would go mad I'm sure. There is only one reasonable solution to this dilemma - get both! :mrgreen:

Remember that you can always sell the one that becomes your least favorite and recover your money. [smilie=1:

[Ken in Iowa]

I have been thinking of buying an all ready sporterized rifle for cast bullet shooting, and woods deer hunting at ranges under 100 yards. I am leaning towards the Krag, I all ready have brass and dies that I inherited with my dads 30" 1898 rifle and it seems a little more interesting to me. What do you guys think?

When presented with the same situation, I had the same thoughts and went with the Krag.

[elk hunter]

I have and shoot both and if i had to choose, and I don't want to, I'd take the Krag, I think it is about the ideal 30 caliber cast bullet cartridge. The Krag case has a rim which supports the case during firing pin strike, the 06 case doesn't. Years ago I read that with a heavy firing pin fall a rimless case shoulder can be driven ahead in the chamber changing the headspace of the cartridge with lower pressure loads that don't push the case back against the bolt face. This could be more pronounced with hard primers. Some folks recommend marking rimless, low pressure, cast load cases and only using them for low pressure loads.

Just my thoughts, nothing more.

I'm sure which ever you choose you'll like it.

[bob208]

for cast bullet shooting there is no difference in performance. I killed an 8 point buck with one shot with a 99 carbine and a 311299. rolled many ground hogs with the same bullet out of a low number 03.

so for cast bullet shooting it is up to you. which action sings to you? which is easer for you to get powder brass for? or as the other suggested buy both shot them sell the one you don't like.

[tdoor4570]

Don't be a cheapscate buy both of them

[gnoahhh]

I would definitely go with the Krag. As much as I like '03s, I could never warm up to the 03A3. To me they are much more crude than an '03, and strong or not the stamped parts and unfinished tool marks are another deal breaker. An 03A3 can be made into a decent sporter, but the work involved in bringing it up to snuff to me isn't worth it. Then again with an 03A3 you're stuck with wartime barrels which are crapshoot whether you get a good one or not. Go with the Krag.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Don't be a cheapscate buy both of them

Sounds like good advice to me! BUT! If I had to make a hard choice, I`d go with the `03A3.Robert

[Kraschenbirn]

I've got both and for 'deer hunting...under 100 yards', I'd drag out the Krag every time. Mine is an 1898 carbine 'sporterized' -possibly by Bannerman's or the NRA - in the 1920s (Lyman rear sight has been dated, by Lyman Customer Service, to 1919-1922 period) and I've found I can almost match original military ballistics with CB's. Of course, if I were stalking something larger than Bambi's dad; possibly at a longer range, I'd probably go with the '06 and JBs, anyway.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Some of you gents need a reality check. The Krag has a real cool factor, like it's water on glass smooth action and the quirky side box mag. Then there is the history that goes with the Krag. Lots of cool and panache has the Krag.

But the last one was made in 1903 that means they are all 112 to 120 years old. The steel is hard and brittle and heated treated by eye just like the low number 03s. It is not difficult to crack the single locking lug. The internal barrel specs are all over the map from a groove diameter of .308 to .314 and larger. Most have barrels that show their age and use with ancient jacketed bullets and corrosive primers. They are usually chock full of crud when you get them.

The 03/03A3 is a more modern design, very strong and not brittle (except the low numbered 03s) have uniform barrel specs and over all they are a more accurate and serviceable rifle.

I like the Krag, having 4 of them, but I am not going to allow the cool factor to override my common sense.

[Scharfschuetze]

I load, cast and shoot both models a lot and find 'em both just fine for cast boolits. Consider the points brought up in the above post, but also consider which one has the best bore, crown, the least obvious abuse, trigger pull, proper alignment of the scope mounts, etc.

The fact that you've already got components for the Krag might tip the scale for its selection.

A point in the 03A3's favor is that replacement parts will be much easier to find for it than the Krag. I have the usual suspect parts for breakage for both models squirreled away for replacement if necessary. Steel doesn't get stronger with age!

[fouronesix]

Since you're talking already sporterized, I wouldn't worry too much about nostalgia. I have and have had a few of both. IMO the 03A3 is the better all around rifle. The only area where the Krag shines is smoothness of action. The 03A3 is stronger and better in most every way. It's a toss up as to which will shoot best. No one I know has such a crystal ball.

If the 03A3 has a 4 or 6 groove bore, and all other things being equal between the Krag and the 03A3, the 03A3 will shoot as well as if not better than the Krag. Regardless of internet buzz to the contrary and I can only go by my experience... I've never had a 2 groove 03A3 shoot as well as a 4 or 6 groove.

[Safeshot]

I agree with the "Buy Them Both" advice. If after you use them and shoot them for a year or two, decide which one you like "Best" and definitely keep that one. If you do not "dislike" or "hate" the other one, then keep them both. They both are "Nice Rifles" well suited to cast bullet shooting. A "Good One" of either is better than a "Fair or Bad One" of the other. Individual condition and performance (actual shooting) is important.

[leadman]

I have both and prefer the 03a3. I have a sporterized Smith Corona 03a3 that was a junker when I got it. It shoots cast boolits of various weights into MOA groups most of the time. The point of impact does change some with the different weights. This hsd the older machined steel magazine and floorplate on it. These parts were often changed when these guns were sporterized.
As far a 2 groove versus 4 groove it depends more on bore condition in my experience. The 2 groove seem to run a little larger in bore size but not a problem at all.
The 30-06 is an inexpensive cartridge to get into reloading for. Once fired brass is available and dies are cheap.
The 30-06 can also push a 200gr boolit over 2,500 fps if you ever need to. Factory ammo is available worldwide.

[tdoyka]

the krag is real nice, i happen to have a bubbaized one. and i believe it can shoot, much better than me. but the old '06 has alot going for it. like leadman says, brass is plentiful and dies are cheap. unlike the 30-40 where you are at the mercy of remington brass.

30-40 krag, 165gr ranch dog at 50 yards
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h273/tdoyka/1437086996355.2_zps3epxe5er.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/tdoyka/media/1437086996355.2_zps3epxe5er.jpg.html)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I also shoot both with cast only. Seeing as you are going with a sporterized rifle, original rear sights mean little as I very much prefer a receiver "peep" sight over a conventional rear. The 03A3 is the only Springfield I consider ready to go hunting with. Springfields have excellent long range sights but not my idea of a river bottoms hunter. We are not looking for 600 yard "bullseys Target shooting".

An up close caliber .30 deer rifle (under 50 yards) does not need a muzzle velocity of 2700fps. 2000 fps with a FN 180 gr (a 220 FN would be my choice) cast is going to take care of any corn cruncher I have ever seen. So the Krag will easily meet that need. That wonderful long neck case makes Cast loading a breeze. Add an M die to your set and you will have plenty of good snug neck room for seating your lead. Plenty has been written about the smooth action and excellent feeding of the Krag. The biggest deficit I can think of is being sure your loading a proper diameter boolit. I have owned Krags that refused to shoot accurately until a .315 diameter was loaded (still have that carbine). Most do fine with .312 but some fat throated barrels are out there.

So if I had both at home (I do) and was going to pop a bean eater down in the river bottoms I hunt with a caliber .30 I would never hesitate to grab a Krag that I have a receiver sight on. Not that an 03A3 would be any inferior. I just do not see that "newer rifle" in 06 as being any better at the ranges I pop white tails. 33 yards is the longest shot to date in the bottoms I hunt. Most are under half that distance. Actually in the last 15 years all my firearm deer have been popped with a revolver. Far more with a recurve bow. The ranges I encounter deer just do not require a rifle. But a Krag sure would do the job.
Mike in Peru

[murf6656]

Thanks for every ones replies. Since the thread started I bid on the Krag that I wanted but did not get it. I think I have about lost interest in the 03 Springfields. I think all the comments about them being more modern and more practical are right. I all ready have to many modern practical guns. So I'm keeping my eye out for the right Krag, but its hard to stay focused a Winchester 54 has my head turned right now.

[fouronesix]

Thanks for every ones replies. Since the thread started I bid on the Krag that I wanted but did not get it. I think I have about lost interest in the 03 Springfields. I think all the comments about them being more modern and more practical are right. I all ready have to many modern practical guns. So I'm keeping my eye out for the right Krag, but its hard to stay focused a Winchester 54 has my head turned right now.

Are you sure you know what "modern" means in the context of what posters were saying about the '03A3? After all the '03A3 is simply an '03 design using modern metallurgy and some time saving processes during the hasty catch up at the beginning of WWII. The '03 was the US version (copy) of the 1898 Mauser…. so similar in fact that the US had to pay Mauser a design infringement-royalty fee for each '03 made prior to the US entry into WWI in 1917.

[43PU]

Which Krag was it? And was it on gunbroker? I just won a bid on one lol

[murf6656]

Are you sure you know what "modern" means in the context of what posters were saying about the '03A3? After all the '03A3 is simply an '03 design using modern metallurgy and some time saving processes during the hasty catch up at the beginning of WWII. The '03 was the US version (copy) of the 1898 Mauser…. so similar in fact that the US had to pay Mauser a design infringement-royalty fee for each '03 made prior to the US entry into WWI in 1917.

I know what was meant about modern metallurgy, I don't know that modern metallurgy is necessary to push cast bullets 1900 fps. The similarity to the Mausers I all ready own just makes it less desirable to me. I don't buy rifles because there practical. I buy rifles that seem like they would be fun to mess with.

[murf6656]

Which Krag was it? And was it on gunbroker? I just won a bid on one lol
The one I bid on is back on there, I didn't hit the reserve.

[Char-Gar]

Krags are indeed fun to mess with. I bought my first one in 1960 and killed my first deer with it the fall of the same year. It belonged to an old dentist who was giving up hunting and I paid $15.00 for it which included the Pacific receiver sight. I still have it and shoot it often even though I have three more.

In the past few years, Krag fever seems to have come over the land and rifles have increased in value and these old sights, which just a few years ago were a few dollars now bring much higher prices.

[13Echo]

For a woods rifle and cast bullets I like the Krag. So much in fact that I have had a rescued action get a 20" barrel and a full length stock. there is nothing slicke r and cooler than a Krag. However I also have a DHT '03 for longer range. You really need both.

Jerry Liles

[fouronesix]

I know what was meant about modern metallurgy, I don't know that modern metallurgy is necessary to push cast bullets 1900 fps. The similarity to the Mausers I all ready own just makes it less desirable to me. I don't buy rifles because there practical. I buy rifles that seem like they would be fun to mess with.

Interesting. If you already know all about both the Krag and the 03A3 then why the original post and question?…. unless you are shopping around for opinions that agree with yours.

[pworley1]

I have both. The deer can't seem to tell the difference.

[TCLouis]

When faced with an issue like this the only way to make a sane choice is to choose to buy both.

[gnoahhh]

If a M54 Winchester has caught your eye, I would snag that over either a Krag or an 03A3. Especially if it's a .30-30. Never was a better .30 cal factory cast bullet shooter ever built, IMO. It would take both a Krag and an 03A3 to pry mine out of my hands, and they would have to be darned nice ones too!

[murf6656]

If a M54 Winchester has caught your eye, I would snag that over either a Krag or an 03A3. Especially if it's a .30-30. Never was a better .30 cal factory cast bullet shooter ever built, IMO. It would take both a Krag and an 03A3 to pry mine out of my hands, and they would have to be darned nice ones too!
The 54 Winchester is a 30-06 carbine, a 30-30 would be even better.

[Elkins45]

There's a reason the Springfield replaced the Krag.

[murf6656]

There's a reason the Springfield replaced the Krag.
I have no doubt that the Springfield is a better rifle. But I don't think any of the reasons the Krag was replaced have much bearing on me shooting deer at less than 100 yards with cast bullets.

[13Echo]

Well yes there are reasons the Springfield replaced the Krag. The rate of change and improvement in firearms at that time was extremely fast from cartridge design, metallurgy, bullet design, vast improvements in gunpowder, etc. Many nations rapidly replaced their first cartridge rifles with repeaters and then the repeaters with the next generation of repeaters in the space of 30 years. That doesn't mean the replaced rifles were not and are not worthy weapons. The Krag round is still a very effective hunting cartridge as is the .45-70 and the Krag is still the slickest bolt action ever made. I have Krags and '03s and use both and find both to be rifles worth having and shooting. I also find the 30-40 to be a nearly ideal cartridge for cast bullets, more so than the '06.

[WineMan]

Best Krag shot of all time is the scene in "To Kill a Mockingbird" where Gregory Peck has to shoot the rabid dog in the street. I believe he had to take his glasses off.

Dave

[303Guy]

I also find the 30-40 to be a nearly ideal cartridge for cast bullets,That long neck can't be beat. How does the throat design compare with other 30 cals for cast boolit suitability?

[Mytmousemalibu]

I know this isn't the rifle of topic but on the subject of milsurps and super slick actions, have any of you boys run the bolt on an 1891 Argentine Mauser? If there is a better gun than the Argy for an action that feels like oiled glass....I have not held it yet!

I have one that I rescued that was sporterized in the 60's or 70's. The barrel was shortened, ramp/brass bead front sight and a Williams FP receiver sight and the whole works is sitting in a beautiful wavy/tiger stripe walnut stock. It is a pleasure to shoot!

Sorry for the topic drift!

[murf6656]

I've never been around a 91 Mauser, but someone on this site has one rebarreled to 35 Remington that sure looks perfect!

[Scharfschuetze]

I've never been around a 91 Mauser, but someone on this site has one rebarreled to 35 Remington that sure looks perfect!
It used to be my rifle, but Larry Gibson has it now. Yes, it's a shooter.

To answer the questions of the long neck and throat on the Krag, all I can say is that it all adds up to a great cast boolit case and rifle for just about anything that you want to do with lead projectiles. My favorite design of late is the Lyman 314299 for the .310 bore on my Krag.

[tdoyka]

It used to be my rifle, but Larry Gibson has it now. Yes, it's a shooter.

To answer the questions of the long neck and throat on the Krag, all I can say is that it all adds up to a great cast boolit case and rifle for just about anything that you want to do with lead projectiles. My favorite design of late is the Lyman 314299 sized to .312 for my .310 bore.


[/COLOR]

yep, it is a great cast boolit case. my bore is .3085" and it goes .311". my favorite design is the 165gr ranch dogs, i can't wait to shoot a deer.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

148504148507148508148509Here's a couple of Krags for Krag fans (I am one!) that seem to be following this thread. The pictures are small, but will get larger if you click on them. I purchased both of these rifles on separate internet auctions several years ago. Here's what's a little unusual about them, and of interest (to me, anyway). First photo is just an overall view, as best my very old digital camera will take it. The second is closer up, and is just for a bit better view, but the third (top rifle) is where it gets interesting. As you can see, a piece of wood is not present at the receiver ring, and in fact the receiver ring, as viewed through the hole, doesn't contact the stock at all! Then, in the fourth photo, one can see that an attempt was made to inlet the action so far into the stock that the side plate, plainly visible on most Krags, is only half visible; or maybe it wasn't intentional, and just turned out that way. Unfortunately it became too thin at the front end of the plate and began to splinter out. The stock is almost certainly a Bishop because that's what is written on the butt plate and it has the Bishop-type pistol grip cap, but my theory is that it wasn't originally intended for a Krag and was made for a different rifle entirely, but was adapted to work. Your guess is as good as mine. Oddly, it shoots fairly well with 150 gr. J-word bullets, about 4 inches at 100 yds. No doubt a new stock, or perhaps just a glass bedding job would improve that performance, but it's so unusual the way it is I kind of just like looking at it. The other rifle with the scope came with a Williams side mount (only), no rings. Something stirred in my memory and after rummaging around in my shop for awhile I came up with a set of Williams rings that angle over the bore. I purchased these and a couple of other sets of rings back in '81-'82 when attending a gunsmithing school, and their storeroom was selling off stuff they considered obsolete at a discount. I think the set cost me $7.50. Took about 32 years to find a use for them, but there you have it! Then the matter of a scope came up, not easily solved as the stock is a little long for me. I could not readily find a scope with the proper eye relief, and I thought about removing the recoil pad in an attempt to be able to get a good picture through a scope, but decided the better solution would be to bring the scope closer to the eye. All the scopes I had were prevented from being moved farther to the rear by the locations of either the W&E adjustments or the front bell. Then along comes a friend wanting to sell two used scopes for $35.00 and this Bushnell Banner 2.5X was one of them. Although it looks a little peculiar, the eye relief is perfect. I'll try it out this coming Friday at the local range.

[murf6656]

Those are some nice looking rifles, really like the one with the 2.5x.

[blixen]

1 for the Krag. I have a Win-Sears mod. 70 in '06, but I love my gunsmith sporterized Krag for shooting cast. Why is that slick action so hard to duplicate?

And it is one of my easiest-going cast shooters likes the Lee 185 grain "303" boolit sized at .311 with 4759 or 2400 or practically anything. My uncle killed a whitetail every year with it.

[murf6656]

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y460/bcmurphy63/pix307971701_zpsr2f9c9ha.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bcmurphy63/media/pix307971701_zpsr2f9c9ha.jpg.html)

Some how while shopping for an 03 or Krag sporter, I ended up buying this. I haven't got it yet, just sent the money order off this afternoon. If I have time tonight after welding my moms lawn mower deck back together I'm going to fire up and cast some bullets for it out of the new lee 200 grn flat nose mold I bought the other day. I got dies coming, but I'm going to have to come up with some brass. Right now I have one loaded 35 remington shell out of my cartridge collection. I still see a Krag sporter in my future, but I'm probably done shopping for now till after the first of the year. Thanks for all the responses to this thread.:-D