Ruger "Blackhawk" in 45 Colt - experience in throat and bore size?

[bedbugbilly]

I took a look at a used Ruger New Model Blackhawk (what I believe is a "new model") in 45 Colt the other day with a 7 1/2" barrel - Ruger wood grips. I was somewhat in a hurry though and the LGS has it listed as a "Ruger Blackhawk" so I am unsure as to whether it is "new" or "old" model. Revolver is used but LN with the box - actually appear "un-shot". Balance was very good and felt great in the hand. I have Rugers but in 357 so am well aware of quality, customer service etc.

My question is about bore size and throat size . . . what can one expect the "norm" to be on a Ruger BH 45 Colt?

I know throat size can often be a little "tight" on a Ruger - I don't consider that a deal breaker as they can be opened up. I'm going to be gone for a week so probably a good thing as it will be a "cooling off" time period for me- LOL :-) but the price I felt was very fair ($400) and I did like it so I'm going to take another "serious look" at it when I get back.

Any thoughts and experience on one would be appreciated. Thanks.

Jim

[quilbilly]

I am also looking at a similar used 45 Colt "New Blackhawk" at a nearby LGS as well as a shorter barrel used one that also it comes with the 45 ACP cylinder so am also curious about any replies.

[Harter66]

I'd jump on that 1 . I had "that" 1 myself . The older they are the less likely they seem to be to have severe thread choke . Mine had 2 tight chambers 2 nominal and 2 perfect for the intended use . I think they were 452 ,453,4535 and 454 . I was able to in an hour or so lap the really tight chambers up and get the 2 nominal chambers close . The end result was that it went from 4 in 6 inches with 2 out 4+ inches at 30 yd to 6 in 5 " at 50 every time .

That was about 10 yr ago . OTD was $428 tax Brady etc the shop had an asking price of 475 plus tax and fees .

The bbl was 445x452 with just a bump at the frame . I'd bought a bunch of Nv Extreme cast to shoot in it the 255s were ok up to 950-975 fps but groups fell apart after that. the 200gr RN hit 900 and had a huge recoil jump ..... best guess is that they tipped in the throat. Later with my own boolits the 45-200 RCBS swc and the Lee 252 swc and 255 RNFP was fine to 1050 .

I loved it after I matched the throats . It was a Bicentennial model.

[Outpost75]

Price is good!

Norm expected of NMBH IS tight cylinder throats of .450-.451, so IMMEDIATELY send cylinder(s) to DougGuy and have them reamed.

Fast turnaround and will make a BIG difference in how it shoots. Worth the money, don't skimp on this step.

Then size bullets .452-.4525, standard book loads and enjoy.

[Stopsign32v]

I like these revolvers a lot but I just don't like the bulky sights. I wish they offered a more classic SAA style. Either way that price is a no brainer.

[Harter66]

Quillbilly ,
Don't even hesitate. The ACP cyl is a $75 add on new and costs $125 or more after the fact. I've read comments about the ACP not being as accurate as the Colts cyl due to the long jump I haven't had a chance to find out yet .....

[bdicki]

New model has 2 pins, old model has 3 screws. Old model also has more clicks. I cut the front blade off and put a dovetail in it's place. Easy to change type and height of sight.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t182/bdicki/DSCN0243.jpg

[runfiverun]

I didn't even measure mine I just went and shot it.
the holes were pretty close to each other so I shot I some more.
then I put some new grips on it.
now I'm trying to wear it out.

[Guesser]

My 45/45 Convertible had 8 different throat sizes in 12 throats, all smaller than the .4515 bore size. I went to Brownells and bought the ream kit and did all 12 throats to .4525. The difference was immediate and astounding. My ACP cylinder shoots better than the Colt cylinder.

[guncheese]

if i was collecting them i would buy the tool
but DougGuy does the fine job for the minor money

[DougGuy]

Generally, a .452" boolit or bullet won't go into the cylinder throats from the front, so you can pretty much assume that whatever diameter the throats are, is what they are sizing your loads to as they are fired. Factory throat diameters hover in the .450" ~ .451" range. Most are uneven from throat to throat because Ruger gang reamed cylinders with 3 cutters at a time, and all 3 were in different stages of wear so you got uneven throats because of this. It's easy enough and actually very inexpensive to fix and kinda comes with the territory when you buy a Ruger single action revolver. Look on the bright side. AT LEAST they didn't ship them with hugely oversized throats that couldn't be fixed without fitting a new cylinder to the gun!

The .45 caliber barrels are quite consistent and most are .451" in the areas there isn't any roll mark or threaded into the frame. These areas can be squeezed down some depending on how deep the roll marked warning is on the outside of the barrel, you can often see ridges inside that are right behind the words on the outside, caused by the overly strong impressions used in applying the roll marked warning. You can see these with the naked eye if you look carefully enough down a clean bore with a good light.

The other thing to check for is thread choke. With a clean bore and a good light, you can also see this with the naked eye. It looks like a slight halo of distorted reflection precisely at the point where the front of the frame and the barrel meet. You can also take a tightly patched cleaning jag and push it down the bore from the muzzle, if it stops or gets tight where the barrel threads into the frame, it is choked. If you have to nearly destroy the cleaning jag to force it all the way through, the choke is quite severe and this gun will never shoot very well until the choke is addressed, *OR* if you shoot quite soft alloy through it, which will swage down once it is presented to the choked part of the bore, and will slug back up in the barrel and seal, PROVIDED there is enough gas pressure behind it. I found this to be the case with jacketed bullets, because they are soft inside, they will easily swage down and go through tight throats or thread choke, and still shoot purty danged good. The harder the boolit, the more issues any tightness in the throats or a thread choke will cause, and the more it will be noticed.

[Seeker]

The throats on my NM convertibles' 45 colt cylinder measured .451. And shot 6"-8" groups at 25 yrds. I lapped them carefully and now they all measure .452 and at 25 yrds all the holes touch each other.I'm a very happy shooter. I've always been a do it yourself guy. I timed each session on each throat and the whole process only took about an hour and a half. It turned out great. I just did this yesterday. Tonight I'm going out back and shoot 50 yrds.

[DougGuy]

Anybody can follow Ross Seyfried's tutorial on how to mount coarse grit abrasive paper onto a split dowel and make throats big enough to poke a properly sized boolit through. tbh this is what we generally refer to as the "Bubba" way of dealing with tight cylinder throats. There is absolutely no way to insure the throat is round, and a lot of factory throats are oval, quite common, so if the abrasive follows what's already there, the throat will remain oval. There is also no way to get them even in size and I use a reamer, and when I do use abrasive paper to clean up after the reamer, it is really minimal as I do not want to make the throat any larger, just smooth out the tool marks the reamer leaves behind. An ACRO lap is marginally better but it will also lap an oval hole, oval. It won't really round an oval hole too well. I use the ACRO lap after the reamer with pretty good success as the reamer DOES cut a round hole.

What's important, is that the throats are all even with each other in size, as this affects pressure which affects point of impact, etc. I try to send them out within .0002" of each other, and you simply cannot get this kind of quality control without starting with the reamer and working from there. That's one thing the reamer does insure.

[Seeker]

Anybody can follow Ross Seyfried's tutorial on how to mount coarse grit abrasive paper onto a split dowel and make throats big enough to poke a properly sized boolit through. tbh this is what we generally refer to as the "Bubba" way of dealing with tight cylinder throats. There is absolutely no way to insure the throat is round, and a lot of factory throats are oval, quite common, so if the abrasive follows what's already there, the throat will remain oval. There is also no way to get them even in size and I use a reamer, and when I do use abrasive paper to clean up after the reamer, it is really minimal as I do not want to make the throat any larger, just smooth out the tool marks the reamer leaves behind. An ACRO lap is marginally better but it will also lap an oval hole, oval. It won't really round an oval hole too well. I use the ACRO lap after the reamer with pretty good success as the reamer DOES cut a round hole.

What's important, is that the throats are all even with each other in size, as this affects pressure which affects point of impact, etc. I try to send them out within .0002" of each other, and you simply cannot get this kind of quality control without starting with the reamer and working from there. That's one thing the reamer does insure.
DougGuy, Please don't take this the wrong way...I know you are a professional and have been doing this a long time. Also, I'm not doubting your methods. That said, this revolver is shooting so much better I am just amazed. I don't have pin gauges but I have a really good set of calipers that measure to.0000. All my throats measure .452 at any place I mic. them all around. Please explain to me how you get an oval hole with a tool that is going around and around? I had the cylinder laying in my hand, not clamped in a vise, not enough rpms to create any heat while working it in and out. The strip of 600 grit wet/dry paper (oiled)was just about 1/4" wider than the throat. G.

[quilbilly]

As it turns out, the firearm I was thinking about trading in for the Ruger is worth about half again more than the price of the Ruger according to the Blue Book. More thinking to do. Thanks for the info, Harter. Hope to be down your way this fall unless the snow flies early (sure feels like it here this week).

[Safeshot]

I had an experience with a .45 Colt Cal. Ruger BH that had a very tight and rough barrel "throat" (it leaded the bore badly). I got a tapered throat reamer from "Brownells" and it reamed it (cleaned it up) and improved it considerably. Improved the accuracy and reduced/eliminated bore leading. I understand that this is not an unusual situation.

[DougGuy]

DougGuy, Please don't take this the wrong way...I know you are a professional and have been doing this a long time. Also, I'm not doubting your methods. That said, this revolver is shooting so much better I am just amazed. I don't have pin gauges but I have a really good set of calipers that measure to.0000. All my throats measure .452 at any place I mic. them all around. Please explain to me how you get an oval hole with a tool that is going around and around? I had the cylinder laying in my hand, not clamped in a vise, not enough rpms to create any heat while working it in and out. The strip of 600 grit wet/dry paper (oiled)was just about 1/4" wider than the throat. G.

Oh and I wasn't meaning it in the wrong way either. We all start somewhere with the "I think I can do this" bit, and it usually works. Revolvers are not really that scientific in their design, and if you think about it, there is a LOT of leeway in those throats that once the boolit hits the forcing cone and gets pushed into the barrel, it basically "fixes" any out of round that the boolit may have had, and it sizes the boolit so no matter how big it was when it hits the forcing cone, it's .xxx" size now regardless so you can get away with a LOT in a cylinder throat and still have it shoot circles around what it did before. Doesn't mean it's right, it just means it's less obstructed than it was before.

If a throat is oval, a rotary hone or lap basically pushes against the sides and will follow that shape all the way around. A hone like a Sunnen hone is a different story all together. It will make an oval hole round because of how it's made, it only cuts on one side and it will just quit cutting in the egged part of a hole and pick up a cut again after it passes the egged part. A flapper hone can't do this because it works differently, it really doesn't have any adjustment to it or any part that rides in the hole without being an abrasive surface.

Pin gages are what you need. You can see an oval or egged hole by it letting light through on the sides of it. Ruger sends them out oval, egged, bell mouthed, all the time. I would estimate that of all the Ruger BH or SBH cylinders that come through my shop, only about 1/4 of them will have all 6 throats fairly round and no telltale egged part in a couple or three of the throats.

Hell I remember many many years ago reading about firelapping, but I never read about how it was done. I went to the gun shop next door and got a bottle of J&B Bore Cleaner that was broken and had been sitting on the shelf for a long time, all the polishing abrasive had settled in the bottom, so I poured the oil off the top, loaded up 50 rounds of some hardcast Keith type LSWC over 8.5gr of Unique with this bore cleaner paste crammed into the lube groove and went to the range. Oh DANG what a smoky oily MESS that was! When I got it back to the shop and cleaned up, I could visibly see a big difference in the roughness and tool marks left in the barrel, and it shrunk groups by 2/3 so I was tickled. I didn't know any better but hey it worked!

[Moonie]

About 2 years ago or so I purchased a NMBH convertible in 45/45. The largest throat was probably in the neighborhood of .451, most were smaller, some smaller than .450. All were reamed to .4525, it made a huge improvement. If I needed it done again I'd send it off to DougGuy, he knows what he is doing, lots of very happy people on the forum that have used his service.

Never seen a caliper that would accurately measure .0000...

[bedbugbilly]

A big thanks to you all for the great information and comments - it's greatly appreciated! When I get back home, I'm going to go a take a much more "educated" look at the BH - for some reason, it just felt good in the hand and looked like a lot of run.

Most all of my revolver shooting has been done in 38/357. I've never had a problem with undersize throats before - but - mots of my revolvers are "vintage" - last count I have around 8 or 9 38/357s. Anywhere from a 1910 Colt Army Special, 1920is S & W M & P, a couple of 60 + yeear old K frames, etc. and a SA Uberti Bisley as well as a Ruger New Vaquero 357. I like Rugers - fortunately have never had a problem with the NV 357.

I have always wanted to load and shoot 45 Colt - basically because of the cartridges history and I've always cast for the last 50 years. I've been sort of "down-sizing" and rethinking calibers and decided to concentrate on the 38s and and the 45 Colt . . along with the 32 WCF as I have all the dies, molds, components - just haven't found the right 32-20 wheelmen yet.

Anyway . . as we all know . . "you just can't stop with one". I said when I decided to load the 45 Colt that I would stick with one wheel gun . . . yea, right!? I have a Uberti Steel Cattleman coming - that will quench my thirst for et "Old West" . . but after seeing and handling the BH . . . if it's decent, it's coming home with me. Price and condition seems fair and I just want to check out some of the things that DougGuy pointed out such as throat thread constriction or bore from roll marking. While I like the old standard SA revolvers - seems like the BH would be pretty much the same as when I switch from my old Smith M & P 5" and shoot my 1920ish M & P Target Model - i.e. - a world of difference with much better sights.

If i'm able to get it (if it's not sold) I'll see how it shoots, check the throats and if it needs to have them opened up, will be in touch with DougGuy. I do have a machining background - unfortunately no access to good machine tools anymore. I'm a firm believer in using the right tools to do the job the right way. Doug has an excellent reputation for sure!

All of this raises a question just out of curiosity . . . I've read of Ruger using the triple head tooling to ream three chambers at once . . and it's understandable from a mfg. cost as to why they do it. But, switch out a worn reamer and walla! - you've got different throat sizes. As I said, the majority of my wheel guns are vintage/old. What about other manufacturers? S & W, Colt, (and as much as I hate to mention it) Taurus, etc.? Do their current production wheel guns suffer from the same throat issues or are they more consistent that say Ruger? DougGuy . . I'm thinking you probably could answer this question just based on what comes through your shop for work. And . . . not know just how their machining process works . . . is there a problem with the chambers as well being a few thousands off - essentially ending up with a "loose chamber" and a "tight chamber"?Even thought there would be a SAAMI tolerance range? Just curious as to what the norm is on current production makes.

Thanks all . . . I'll report back on what I end up with or don't end up with. Again, greatly appreciate the help and information!

Jim

[DougGuy]

Current production, i.e. the medium framed Ruger single actions have improved a LOT but I still pin them out to see which pilots I need to use and it's peculiar, I will get one cylinder that has 5 holes that take a .4505" pilot and the one odd one that will only take a .450" or it will sometimes be the other way around, 5 at .450" and one at .451" but they are machined much smoother than in previous years. They actually look really nicely done. Until you get to gaging them and find out you need 2 or 3 different pilots to fit the reamer snugly in all the throats. The majority of the medium framed .45 convertibles will use a .450" pilot in the .45 Colt throats and a .451" pilot in the .45 ACP throats.

You are correct on how Ruger gang reamed throats in earlier years, each one of the reamers cut two throats, adjacent to each other, so you often had 3 "pairs" of throats that vary in size according to how worn the reamer was that cut them. When they replaced one reamer, it cut larger holes than the worn ones did and the only way to "fix" these cylinders is to size all the throats to match the largest one, and then let the shooter size the boolits to a light drag fit in the throats. This will get them to shooting good groups.

S&W cylinders are a work of art in metal. They are polished slick as snot on a doorknob, and I only get those in from time to time for throat reaming. They stick to pretty much factory bullet dimensions and SAAMI specs. Their .45 cylinders are going to be right on .451" in diameter, and surprisingly even from throat to throat.

Same with the Ruger Redhawks that I have seen. While they may not be a smoothly polished as the S&W, their dimensions are a LOT more consistent, and pretty close to the factory bullet diameters. You would have absolutely NO issues shooting factory j-words out of either of these guns. For shooting .452" cast, yes the throats will act the same way a BH does, and will need correcting to fit the .452" boolit into the throat properly. And it SHOULD go into the throat. This is quite important for accuracy that the sides or the front driving band of the boolit be seated out long enough to be into the throats when a round is chambered, and it should fit fairly snug in the throats when chambered. This is also true of an autoloader, centerfire rifle, and rimfire, not just a revolver or single shot.

Charge holes are tapered, straight walled pistol cartridges are just that, they are straight. The throat is what holds the chambered round in proper alignment for firing. If the boolit cannot rest in the throat, then the round can lay against the side of the charge hole, it does have some "wiggle room" up there, it may not be much but there is some, and when it is fired, the boolit can become damaged on one side by the ball seat, or chamfer, in the end of each charge hole. It's just like a forcing cone except it's in the cylinder. Once the boolit enters this chamfer, it will cause the case to center itself on the chamfer as the boolit exits the case mouth. This arrangement is not really that bad, I mean it ain't perfect but it works, but having the boolit engage the throat and align the case within the charge hole works a LOT BETTER.

It seems almost ironic that everything else in the gun is meticulously fit, machined, precisely dimensioned, and the more accurately it is made, the more consistently and accurately it will shoot, right? Why then, would one of the MOST CRITICAL dimensions on the entire gun be left to be randomly machined by worn out tooling?

I don't look at cylinder throat preparation as a repair, I look at it as fine tuning a machined part so it will be as perfect as the rest of the gun and it will be a performance enhancing job designed to bring the throats into precise size, roundness, and have them as evenly matched in size as I can do with my tools and my knowledge. Or lack of.. Sorry for writing a BOOK.. Good El Salvador coffee this am :bigsmyl2:

[Light attack]

I paid $75 for my Blackhawk .45 with the ACP cylinder back in 1971 at the base PX in San Diego. I haven't measured the throats or bore but when I was in the Corps I shot it on the range one day and after adjusting fire and getting on paper at 300 yards could keep the .45ACP military hard ball in the black. Lots of fun.

[bedbugbilly]

All great information.

And Doug . . . keep drinking that fine coffee! Your explanations and information are not only informative and educational . . . but just plain interesting!

So DougGuy . . . all this interesting talk brings up another question just out of curiosity - and I don't know if or how many you've done . . but . . . what about 1st generation Colt SAA? Regardless of caliber - say 45 Colt, 44/40 etc. I'm sure that Colt had pretty much "up to date" production machinery for the day - they'd suffered a complete loss with the fire at their plant and had rebuilt by the time the 1873 came out (the up to date machinery is of course an assumption on my part). Would their cylinders have been "gang reamed" or "individually reamed"? And of course with the old size of bore utilizing a .454 boolit, were the throats uniform and of the correct size or did they suffer from the same problem as many of them today with a variety of dimensions - either undersize or oversize?

I know that a lot of folks still shoot 1st generation Colt SAA (as well as 2nd and 3rd generation) but I don't believe I have ever read anything on the 1st generation revolvers as far as how the throats ran dimension wise. I am assuming that many of the originals which utilized BP cartridges may have worn/pitted chambers/throats/bores so it might be hard to get accurate dimensions of what they were originally but I'm sure there are also a number of them out there in exceptional condition where those things could be checked out.

Have you ever had to do much work on originals?

Thanks again for everyones information and input - it's been some great reading and always nice to learn new things!

Jim

[DougGuy]

The old Colts that I owned were closer to .454" throats and didn't suffer from leading the bores because of tight cylinder throats. I don't think they gang reamed cylinders ever at Colt. Come to think of it, I can't remember reading about cylinder throats needing reaming until the Rugers came along. I remember that the 1st Gen. SAAs had quite generous throats, many of them were .456" or larger but to my knowledge, and don't quote me on this because I don't still own any of the handful of original SAAs that I used to own, none of them had throats as small as .452" and even my 2nd Gen. 45 were larger than .452" as well.

[Dale53]

I find this an interesting thread and Doug's MUCH greater experience tallies with mine. I have a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP revolver and I have mentioned my experience with it on more than one occasion on these pages. The throats were undersize in the .45 Colt cylinder as well as the ACP cylinder. With the .45 Colt I would get serious leading in just a few shots and could see the accuracy going away in as little as thirty shots. I couldn't even chamber my .45 ACP handloads with .452" bullets (Mihec mould for the H&G #68 bullet).

I borrowed the Manson Reamer kit complete with pilots from a good friend and did four handguns (total of seven cylinders). The results were gratifying, to say the least. NO MORE leading and accuracy maintained for as long and as many as you want to shoot. That includes BOTH cylinders.

I would suggest, you anyone not set up to do this, to measure your cylinder throats, and if they are not correct, to just ship the cylinders to Doug for correction. That is the way to handgun happiness... (I have no financial interest in Doug's business, I just have heard nothing but glowing reports).

Right after I reamed my cylinders, here is what resulted from the first shots out of the .45 ACP cylinder at 50 feet from a makeshift rest (it was during the winter and extremely cold outside):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img072.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/img072.jpg.html)

My Bisley will shoot under 1" at 25 yards off a rest with either cylinder and a variety of loads. The combination has to be one of the best all around outfits available (now).

Dale53

[Nueces]

My second gen Colt SAAs in 45 all have oversized throats. I have an original Colt SAA made in 1899 with throats all measuring 0.450". I measured them using a Starrett dial bore gauge that reads to 0.0001".

[dubber123]

If you haven't bought it yet, at least taking some variously sized boolits with you to try in the throats is a good idea. As stated, undersized is ok, as it's cheap and easy to fix. Ruger DID make some with oversized throats, I just dealt with one about 6 months ago. .455"+ throats, and a healthy thread choke to boot. I finally found a mold that cast fat enough, and a marathon lapping session removed the choke. End result was it went from 5" or so at 50 yds. down to 2". Leading disappeared as well. I hope the one you are looking at is a bit closer to spec.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks all for the info!

dubber 123 - that's exactly what I was thinking of doing - taking some boolits with me to check the throats out. I can measure some that I have cast up (un-sized) and then size a couple to .452 and that will at least give me an idea if throats are tight or over size.

Right now, I have two molds - a Lyman 454-190 single cavity and a Ideal 452-460 - 200 grain. I'd like to end up with a 250ish grain and a 200ish grain to play with. The 454-190 is a single cavity and at my age, it's getting harder to stand and cast for extended periods. I'm figuring that once I get a chance to play with the two weights and designs i have, I'll order a good 2 cavity mold from NOE or the like in a dimension that will work the best. And, have a push through sizing die honed out to the correct dimension should it not end up being .452 that works the best.

The boolits I've cast up so far are soft lead - which is what I use for my 38 BP loads as well. I plan on loading both smokeless and BP so I want to end up with something that has an adequate lube groove that will hold enough BP lube. My 452-460 200 grain seems to be dropping right around .452 plus a skosh more .0005 to .0011 more. The 454-190 seems to be dropping at around .455 - .44555. I had some at .456. So - will just have to wait and see is going to work best. Which, of course, is going to depend on bore size as well.

[dubber123]

bedbugbilly, that 454190 has been one of the most consistantly accurate boolits I have shot. Not much of a Meplat for hunting, but very accurate in every .45 Colt I have tried it in. Good luck with your new toy. :)