Long range or heavy hitting cast question

[Blackcat]

Ive been pondering something about bullet design and ballistics.
What exactly is involved in taking a long range bullet and giving it the exact opposite characteristics of its original design ? Can it be done ? Pros and cons. Im mostly just courious to know.
For example: a typical .30-06 you can generally tune it for decent range, flat trajectory, accuracy using factory bullets.
But what If you wanted to cast a close to mid range heavy hitting wide flatnose style while retaining some sort of accuracy out too say 200-300 yards. Less of a through and through more of a bone breaking large wound channel (bears and such)

I know the old saying that there is no one perfect caliber... But im curious as too why.
Long range bullets are generaly lighter, stream lined, jacketed and have a decent ballistic coefficient. This gives accuracy at greater range but at closer range it generally creates a smaller hole and a through and through wound.

If were casting and reloading why cant we take the same round and add a few grains to the bullet, hard cast something with a nice wide flat nose and adjust the powder accordingly. Would that not be a "one perfect caliber" ? Or at least something close too it.

[Jackpine]

Isn't there an old line that goes something like: "Regardless of the question, if the answer is 30-06, it is never wrong!"

Jackpine

[leftiye]

Not to be pedantic, but there ain't no such thang. Or maybe I didn't understand the question.

[outdoorfan]

There's no free lunch, but the 35 Whelen is about as good as it gets from a good sized thumper using the '06 case. Or the 358 Winchester. Or a 35 Remington if you'd like a smaller platform and a little less punch. Nothing wrong with the 30-06. I just feel that with what you described, the 35's get it done better.

[44man]

I would think you still want penetration. Going heavy helps but it still will depend on how you make the boolit perform while in passage.
Bullet makers have worked forever to keep penetration so to stop boolits is kind of backwards.

[cainttype]

I know the old saying that there is no one perfect caliber... But im curious as too why.
Long range bullets are generaly lighter, stream lined, jacketed and have a decent ballistic coefficient. This gives accuracy at greater range but at closer range it generally creates a smaller hole and a through and through wound.


The bullet you describe sounds more like a short-range FMJ or open tip.
Long range (depends on your idea of what that is) projectiles are generally heavy for caliber. In the 30 cal, projectiles hovering around 200 grains are common, 200+ is not unusual.
As far as the "smaller hole and a through and through wound" goes, that's a design issue. Open-tip projectiles commonly encountered in precision shooting can often perform similarly to FMJs. If they do not tumble they can leave a wound channel such as you described (they can also be found in fragile designs that are very explosive).

Generally, the idea of using heavy-for-caliber casts when seeking penetration is sound thinking. Using a wider meplat, a soft-pointing technique, cup/hollow points, or any combination of these can effectively enlarge the wound channel...how much is needed depends on your application, design, impact velocities, and alloy.... simple, right? :)

Many cast shooters find themselves dealing in hunting velocities well under the jacketed counterparts of their rifle. In those cases, if a similar heavier projectile can be used it will only increase your options and increase your effective range. IE, a 200 grain 30 cal at 2200fps has some distinct advantages over a similarly designed 150 grainer at the same speed, in both range and penetration.

[ascast]

++ cainttype ; but will ad - lighter bullets drop energy quicker than heavy (generally). Possible to have a higher MV but much lower energy at target.
i know Lyman made some two piece molds for pistols. Would be fun to see same for rifle and at range ballistic gel tests.

[Blackcat]

Haha Jackpine I agree 30-06 never wrong.
Lots of good points were mentioned that have me thinking more about this.
I think perhaps I didnt word my question right. This is purely out of curiosity because I havent seen anything like it and was wondering why.
Its true I meant to preserve some penetration as well.

When people think of long range target or whatever they think of light, fast bullets with a small meplat. Your typical pointy bullet.

When they think of power loads, bear loads and so on they tend to be powerful, short range massive heavy bullets with a wide meplate, wad cutter or semi wadcutter (correct me if im wrong)

Now im assuming that the long range calibers have just as much power as the close range ones but the bullet shape is optimized for accuracy at greater range.

Im mostly curious what the effect would be of taking one of those longer range calibers like 30-06 or .300 win mag and giving it a long heavy cast bullet with a wide meplat. Would it work, what would happen ? I imagine you would not have the long range accuracy but would the up close performance be comparable to other close to mid range heavy cast bullets ?

like I said ive never seen this done personally and im just really curious as too why.

One more example: The exact opposite... I have a handgun in
.454 casull. This bullet brings to mind heavy cast bullets with gaschecks and wide meplats. I think of beartooth or Hornady XTP .300 grn.
But what would this bullet do if it was shaped like a .30-06 bullet. FMJ, small meplat and so on.

Would accuracy at greater range improve ?

idk the more I think about this the more it seems like a pretty complex question from a ballistic point of view. Im starting to think there isnt just one easy answer lol

Thanks!

[cainttype]

When people think of long range target or whatever they think of light, fast bullets with a small meplat. Your typical pointy bullet.

When they think of power loads, bear loads and so on they tend to be powerful, short range massive heavy bullets with a wide meplate, wad cutter or semi wadcutter (correct me if im wrong)


In an effort to help... "Long Range" projectiles are normally heavy-for-caliber (by common standards), not lightweights.
Heavier projectiles (within reason) offer better sectional density and higher BCs than lighter bullets with similar designs (nose profiles and base). These characteristics are benefits to both long range performance and deeper penetration.

Heavy casts in something like the 30-06 is not new. Weights 200+ grains are common with large flat meplats, round-nosed, RFs, and special buggers with HPs and cup-noses. Similar light-weight designs can be found in abundance.
You should be able to find a wealth of info regarding these projectiles in the cartridges you're interested in by using the "Search" engine here. Try entering the mould ID along wth the cartridge.
Hope this helps.

[Digital Dan]

Blackcat, take a few minutes to Google search "Wasserburger Mile", or search it here on this site. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[Blackcat]

Ive learned many new things from this thread. My original question is mostly satisfied now but I have all sorts of new questions lol. Ill save those for another time I guess... Not wanting to go too far off topic. This Wasserburger mile is news to me and im finding it VERY interesting. Thanks Digital Dan! Im still trying to work out the details like what sort of accuracy they are getting. MOA or MOB minute of buick... To hit anything at that distance is impressive to me. It seems like they are shooting steel at 1700 yards or so with something like... Cast, long, roundnose, paper patch, no gascheck 45/70 from a single shot 1875 Sharps ? Does that seem about right ?

I have a marlin (remlin) 45/70 guide gun... Now this has me wondering just what sort of accuracy and range can be coaxed out of my rifle. Im sure nothing like the Sharps. Mine likely couldnt handle the pressures.

[Digital Dan]

I dunno about MOB, what do you think?

148022

Yeah, probably cast, or they might be swaged, maybe not a roundnose in the sense I take your question. Google up "Money Bullet". Paper patch plain base, might be a C. Sharps or a Shiloh, .45-70/.45-110, who knows. I don't think this is a good job for the .30-06.

Your Guide Gun can handle all the pressure you want. Load up a 500 gr (+/-) chunk of lead and spit out about 1800 fps. Spent some time fiddling with a 1895 CB that did MOA work with paper patch 510 grains at that velocity. With a tang sight. Only problem with that platform is you'll have difficulty loading a Money Bullet. Too much nose for the action to cycle well...if at all.

[longbow]

Unless I am misunderstanding your question(s) I think it has been done:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160055-MiHec-30-Heavy-Sil-brass-mold

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=338

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,946.0.html

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,839.0.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?268326-NOE-310-196Gr-FN-(MX3-30H)-active-group-buy

Not all super heavy but all with largish meplats as you describe.

And in .35 cal:

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1026.0.html

As for "no one perfect boolit"... of course not as everyone has different ideas as to what is perfect. Overall I have to think that the .35 to .375's are the most versatile calibers overall for cast boolits with the ability to deliver relatively flat trajectories over long distance yet still have enough diameter, weight and large meplat potential to be used for hunting pretty much anything.

Having said that, if I was going to be stuck with one caliber for me it would be .45-70. Different strokes.

It is a complicated question you asked with no simple answer to satisfy everyone.

Longbow

[country gent]

The trick for hunting s to "transfer" the bullets energy to the intended target, plain simple and to the point. A heavy for caliber ( depends on twist rate of given barrel also) with a blunt nose at a moderate velocity will do a fine job, cast the bullets on the soft side expansion will be there and increase transfer even more. Those trapdoor level loads at 1300fps in 45-70 not only killed deer but also bear, elk, moose, and a whole bunch of buffalos over a very short time span. Those Black powder loads performed very well and duplication loads will give the same also. I perfer a bullet to pass thru leaving entry and exit holes to leak more. On paper targets its not even nearly as important as punching a hole is all thats required. Whats interesting to see are heavy hanging gongs swing when hit ( think rams at 500yds) some calibers with hard cast give a tink and a little wiggle of the ram, an edge hit may not be heard or seen. Then hit them with a 45 cal 500+ grn round nose cast from 20-1 or so and watch them dance with center hits. and even an edge hit produces some sound and a visible wiggle. It getting the energy transfered from bullet to target. The big heavy soft slugs will appear to "stick" to the ram you see the colud of "dust" around impact, then the base thats left basically drop to the ground. On a good clear day with good optics and little mirage you can see this in the spotting scope.

[Digital Dan]

Soft is good. They don't have to be going fast. Trajectory isn't a real problem if a fella has done his homework, wind is the goblin. Even a mile out they kinda go splat, eh?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/mileshoot0004_zps3ddee6e7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/mileshoot0004_zps3ddee6e7.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

Might check out the part of the XCB threads where I pushed the 311041 to 2500 - 2600 fps with excellent accuracy, espeically for hunting. That makes it a very effective cast 30 caliber bullet to 300 yards.

Larry Gibson

[Bigslug]

The somewhat blasphemous answer (for this forum) that you're looking for is the Barnes TTSX.

Being a solid copper expander with a lightweight plastic nose cone and a boat tail, they're long for their weight, and therefore fly very well.

Being a homogenous material that's more solid than lead, they don't ablate away metal when they expand, and therefore they penetrate. like the next weight class or two heavier. This lets you get away with a lighter bullet for the job, that can be driven faster, and will track flatter.

Opening up into four petals like they do, they give you a meplat that is somewhat like an archery broadhead - they cut more than they displace, and again, penetrate more for it. . .while making your critter bleed. . .real. . .bad. . .

It pretty much solves all you problems except the need to sometimes play DIY.

[Harter66]

Look at the 301618 NOE did a while back. It was intended as a copy of the NRA 1000 yd PP bullet and to be cast of type metal. When backed down to softer boolits several of us had better results. Softened ACWW will expand rather nicely given some blunt nose . I suppose that bullet could even be dumdumed if you wanted to use it to hit like a truck for 150 yd game .