Corroded and unserviceable 30-06 ammo.

[OptimusPanda]

When I bought my M1 a couple ammo boxes of odds and ends were thrown in with the sale. Among them was a metal linked belt with 30-06 AP, and a whole bunch of boxes of match ammo and many loose rounds like the ones in the picture. These have very clearly been stored improperly. The sealed ammo cans that held it all also once contained empty surplus solvent and oil cans which appear to have leaked into the ammo cans they were stored in. There's maybe 500 rounds total, all like this a mix of AP and match. Anyone had any luck cleaning these up, or tearing them apart? Would the brass and bullets still be useful after its poor storage exposed to whatever started eating away at it? If I can save the brass and bullets that might be the best outcome. Otherwise, if the whole lot is a lost cause where would one dispose of it?
147920

[Mytmousemalibu]

I really like that Frankford Arsenal box!

Just my opinion: Pull the bullets, save them, tumble them. Dispose of the powder, fertilize your garden or something. Deprime and tumble the brass (perhaps set the primers off first). After, cull out any components that are unfit for reuse. Shame, those are probably some of the really good Frankford primers (corrosive) Perhaps they are still good enough to use but you need to clean that brass so you find yourself in a pickle trying to save them. You could carefully deprime live primers but could set a few off in the process or sensitize them in depriming them.

[buckwheatpaul]

Had a similar situation....spent a few hours pulling bullets and pouring powder into a glass jar. Then I put on my safety glasses and lubed the brass and carefully pushed out, decapped, the live primers. Next into the citric acid and boiling water, rise, and dry then they go into theThumbler with crushed walnut hulls with rouge......poured the old powder on the yard as a fertalizer....good luck.....I would be intered in your results......Paul

[lancem]

I say throw them in the tumbler and clean them up, bet they shoot just fine. If it is all mil spec ammo both the bullets and the primers have sealant on them...

[dancingbear41]

I say throw them in the tumbler and clean them up, bet they shoot just fine. If it is all mil spec ammo both the bullets and the primers have sealant on them...

+1 on the tumbling

[rtracy2001]

I say throw them in the tumbler and clean them up, bet they shoot just fine. If it is all mil spec ammo both the bullets and the primers have sealant on them...
+1

They really don't look that bad in the photo (may be different in person). Worth a shot, for the time it takes to toss them in the tumbler, even if less than 100% are salvageable, you should still come out ahead.

[zarrinvz24]

I say throw them in the tumbler and clean them up, bet they shoot just fine. If it is all mil spec ammo both the bullets and the primers have sealant on them...

I concur.

[OptimusPanda]

It had never occured to me that I could tumble live rounds...I'll have to try it. Although with the match ammo the primers look sealed but the bullets do not. Anyone seen any of this old match ammo in good condition to verify that?

[lancem]

Even if they are not sealed, and may not be since it is match, it would talk a long time submerged for enough oil to get in to dampen the powder charge.

[funnyjim014]

Dont tumble for to long. I did so with some real nasty 8mm and had every other primer fail. Dont know if it was old primer mixed with way to many vibrations. Pulled them all and mixed the powder and assembled using the avarage of 20rds minus 10%. BUT I haveshot plentyof new pistol ammo that got mixed in with my range brass and almost all go off as expected

[OptimusPanda]

It's more the primers have have me worried. Although since the worst case is a dud or hangfire I suppose there isnt much to loose in trying them out after a run through the tumbler. I can hear the powder inside and doesnt feel like it has become a solid mass. So I would assume the powder is still good. Something tells me I should pull a couple at random and see whats inside.

[Herb in Pa]

The stuff on the linked belts could be machine gun ammo (loaded to higher pressure), tumbling loaded ammo makes the powder itself act like tumbling media and could remove the deterrent coating on the powder and change it's burning rate drastically. I'd just pull the bullets and toss the rest................

[Leslie Sapp]

A quick rub with steel wool will clean most of those right up. I doubt you'll have any misfires out of that lot, I've fired a bunch of stuff that looked a lot worse than that.

[Omega]

I tumbled some that I found in a lake, the M1 clips were pretty rusty and could not be saved but the rounds cleaned up real well and not a dud in the bunch.

[Gtek]

Steel wool exterior and shoot in a bolt gun. I would not advise tumbling live ammo as pressure/burn rates can change in powder. Option of teardown and soak primers, some just push them out. The match should not be crimped, the MG will be and extra force will be needed to push primer. I myself do not like potential pops, air burst shall we say. If torn down I would soak. Clean them up, load and shoot them, with cast should last a very long time if cared for properly.

[Mytmousemalibu]

It's more the primers have have me worried. Although since the worst case is a dud or hangfire I suppose there isnt much to loose in trying them out after a run through the tumbler. I can hear the powder inside and doesnt feel like it has become a solid mass. So I would assume the powder is still good. Something tells me I should pull a couple at random and see whats inside.

Would you be interested in parting with a Frankford Box of that stuff? :bigsmyl2:

After a little pondering, yeah, why not try giving them a short tumble to clean them up before pulling them all down. I think it would be a good idea to pull down a few and see how the powder looks, make sure it doesn't smell foul or decomposed with the red rot. I have done some reading on powder life and what affects it and general consensus is storage around chemicals and storage in high temperatures and moisture being the biggest influences. I have had some old ammo that was stored around some household chem's that had seeped but not physically contacted the ammo. Chemicals often produce gases that are imperceptible to us. My old 16ga, 28ga and 30-30 cartridges were badly corroded. The powder was no good even. So I would check a few. Decomposed powder can burn very erratic and isn't worth the risk if the powder is gone foul IMHO. The bullets & brass will probably clean up good if you have to pull them down, least by your picture, it doesn't look too bad. I dug up some info for you, and everyone, its a good read!


Historical Background
The primer, while small, has always been an important part of the accuracy equation of match grade ammunition as it has an influence on pressure and velocity well out of proportion to its size. Reviewing references covering ammunition as far back as the 1923 Frankford Arsenal International Match load for the 30-06, we find that arsenal and civilian reloading authorities often stated that a “softer” primer gave better accuracy. We can only wish that the literature produced then provided a better definition of what they meant by “soft” or how they measured it but we have to live with that omission.


Just prior to the turn of the 20th Century, Frankford Arsenal was loading the .30 US Army (30-40 Krag) with mercuric, corrosive primers which used ground glass as a frictionator to help start combustion. As the fulminate of mercury rendered the brass cases unsuitable for reloading, the non-mercuric H-48 compound was adopted at that time. The Union Metallic Cartridge Company also introduced a non-mercuric primer at that time, the U.M.C. 9 1/2 (Modern Rifle Shooting, Walter Hudson, M.D., Laflin & Rand, 1903 at p. 107). Fired cases were regularly sent back to the armory for reloading in those times, making this an essential change. In 1910, the mixture was again changed, to eliminate the ground glass which was found to increase metal fouling in the bores. The new glass-free FH-42 mixture was still corrosive and non-mercuric.


In 1917, at the peak of production for war needs, a large batch of the FH-42 mix (already loaded into ammunition) failed to perform as required, causing the recall of millions of rounds of ammunition, some already in France. The Winchester developed 35-NF formula was given to Frankford and subsequently adopted as the FA70 mix. The FA70 was used in those 1923 International Match loads was the archetypal soft primer. It was corrosive, non-mercuric, and was valued for the fine accuracy it delivered. All government match ammunition through 1940, when production of match ammunition ceased, was loaded with the FA70 mixture (the primer itself was actually called the FA26 but is often referred to as the FA70). This primer was the gold standard of that era.


Frankford Arsenal, as well as the other government facilities producing and testing match grade ammunition had facilities that we, as amateur handloaders, can barely fathom. Their testing comprised millions of rounds of ammunition and the search for accuracy in support of the National Match, International and Palma ammunition programs was relentless. The Frankford and Lake City Arsenals developed and tested the components and methods of manufacture that led directly to today’s match grade components from commercial manufacturers. I am unabashed in my reliance on their guidance through the articles and books which were generated from that vast store of knowledge.




For many years after their introduction, non-corrosive primers were considered harsher and less accurate and thus were not used in arsenal loaded match grade ammunition. Given the government’s facilities and test programs, we cannot doubt the conclusion that the softer primers were more accurate. Unfortunately, despite a great deal of research, I can find only minimal quantitative, anecdotal or illustrative definitions of the meaning of “softer” as applied to primers. One example can be found in the book: Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B. Sharpe (Funk & Wagnalls, 1937). Mr. Sharpe, a highly regarded authority on reloading and other technical topics, sets forth load data for both corrosive and non-corrosive primers with the latter being reduced by 3.2 grains in one representative 30-06 match load with the 173 gr. bullet and HiVel #2 powder. Other loads were similarly reduced and there is a general warning to reduce all loads formulated with corrosive primers by 5% when using non-corrosive primers.


Another quantitative indication of the relative meaning of a “soft” primer can be found in Al Barr’s “Loads for the ‘06” (American Rifleman, April, 1949 p. 28). This was the period of transition, when non-corrosive primers were gaining wider acceptance and handloaders were becoming acquainted with their characteristics. In his reloading tables, which were compiled with the assistance of the H.P. White Labs pressure testing facility, Mr. Barr shows a 7,000 PSI increase in pressure with the substitution of the new Winchester 120 (non-corrosive) primer for the FA26 in a standard 30-06 match load with IMR 4895. In the text, Mr. Barr states: “The powder companies have always advised a powder reduction of about five percent when substituting non-corrosive, non-mercuric primers for corrosive Frankford Arsenal 70 or FA26 primers when using maximum recommended powder charges. The reason, of course, is higher pressure caused by hotter commercial (non-corrosive) primers.”


The recommended five percent powder charge reduction gives us some indication of the relative meaning of “soft”. Perhaps it tells us that accuracy is more easily found when the influence of the primer on the overall pressure of the load is minimized; or perhaps only that there is a pressure level that must be maintained in order to develop maximum accuracy. Certainly however, a five percent reduction in the charge of a 30-06 increased air space in an already overly large case and that alone would have a detrimental effect on accuracy. With the broad range of powders available today, one can almost always find a powder that develops the desired pressure and velocity while giving close to 100% load density. In the immediate post-war years however, choices were fairly limited, the old standbys being IMR3031 and the then ubiquitous Hercules Hi Vel #2. DuPont’s IMR 4895, IMR4320 and IMR4350 were all fairly new powders and 100% load density was not generally attainable.




The years between 1917 and 1950 were a bustle of activity in the primer field with efforts to develop non-corrosive primers such as the Swiss and German arsenals had developed being a top priority. Jim Burns, Remington’s primer expert, developed the hugely popular Kleanbore non-corrosive primer for rimfire and centerfire cartridges which was introduced in 1926. Remington held patents on some important non-corrosive primer formulas, but the government was not idle. Frankford Arsenal worked with Berdan priming in corrosive and non-corrosive formulations. The Berdan primers were tried because the available non-corrosive mixes required a larger amount of compound than could be put into the Boxer type primers. The Berdan experiments were short-lived, however, and Frankford continued work on non-corrosive Boxer primers labeled the T53. While match grade ammunition was not the focus of the Arsenal’s research, the controlled environment and relatively small lots of ammunition prepared for the National Matches (about 300,000 rounds annually at that time) provided a useful and frequent testing ground for new developments.


In 1950, all US military rifle ammunition production was ordered changed to non-corrosive primers and that process was complete by late 1951; however, no match ammunition was being produced at that time. In 1956 Frankford Arsenal resumed small scale match ammunition production. It is interesting to note that despite all of the resources at their disposal, six years after the general changeover to non-corrosive primers in arsenal loading and thirty years past the time commercial ammunition makers’ gradual changeover began, Frankford’s chemists still could not find a non-corrosive primer with the fine accuracy of the soft FA26. Accordingly, the corrosive FA26 primer was used in the then new 7.62 NATO cartridge for the 300 Meter events at the 1956 Olympic Games in Melbourne. This special ammunition, designated T275 and later T275E4 and headstamped FA 56 and FA 56 Match, was the only US made 7.62 NATO ammunition with corrosive primers. As it was intended only for International teams, it received very limited distribution. The very small quantity of FA 56 Match 30-06 produced that year became the last corrosive primed .30 caliber match ammunition produced at the arsenals.


Frankford resumed full scale production of 30-06 match ammunition in 1957 initially with the Remington RA70 non-corrosive primer mix. By 1958, Frankford had developed a non-corrosive lead styphnate based primer considered suitable to replace the famed FA26. Labeled the FA36, the new primer was reported to have soft ignition and gave excellent accuracy with velocity spread reduced by 20% and group size at 600 yards reduced by 10% over the FA26. Unfortunately, as the FA36 was not limited to use in match grade ammunition, it was quickly modified by the addition of zirconium to the mix to make it more suitable for extreme cold weather use, quite likely decreasing its accuracy potential to some degree.


Frankford was not alone in holding on to the old primers for match ammunition; Winchester-Western continued using that company’s corrosive and mercuric 8½ G primer in match ammunition (.308, 30-06, and .300 H&H) until 1960 when the 8 ½ G was finally replaced with the non-corrosive, non-mercuric number 120. Remington had long since switched to its non-corrosive Kleanbore primer in match grade ammunition. Thus, by 1960, all US made match grade ammunition was finally loaded with non-mercuric, non-corrosive primers in place of the old “soft” corrosive primers. (See: American Rifleman: F.A. T53 Primers, March 1955, p. 78; Frankford Arsenal and Match Ammunition, April 1957 p. 40; Ammunition for the 1958 National Matches, Sep. 1958 p. 29; FA 36 Primer, September 1959, p. 58; Match Ammunition Manufacture, Dec. 1959 p. 15; Barrel Life, Feb. 1960 p. 38; Corrosive Primers, June 1960 p. 60; Non-Mercuric, Non-Corrosive Primers, Jan. 1961 p. 34; National Match Ammunition, Aug. 1962 p. 22; 1963 NM Ammunition, Aug. 1963 p. 62; US Service Primers, Jan. 1966 p. 63; Non-Corrosive Dates, April, 1966 p. 63 and The Cal. 30 Cartridge in Match Competition, Sep. 1969 p. 42. See also: The Book of the Springfield, by Edward C. Crossman, Ch. 12 Ammunition Components, Small Arms Technical Publishing Company 1932; Muzzle Flashes, by Ellis Christian Lenz, Standard Publications, Inc. 1944 pp 651 – 760; Hatcher’s Notebook, by MG Julian S. Hatcher (various references), Stackpole Books 1962; Handloading by William C. Davis, NRA 1981, Non-Mercuric, Non-Corrosive Primers, p. 20; and, Ammunition Making by George E. Frost, NRA 1990, Primers and Priming p. 47).




With the foregoing background in mind, we set out to examine a sampling of modern primers. Our objective was to see if there is a correlation among several factors including visual flash, pressure, velocity and accuracy. While keeping in mind the historic significance of the soft primer, we approached this testing with an open mind as much has changed in 70 years.

[OptimusPanda]

If you want a couple of the empty boxes you can have those mytmousemalibu.

[Multigunner]

Tumbling live ammo can turn old powders into dust and blow up a gun. Some years back (80's?) a .44 Magnum revolver blew up after the ammo had spent a year or so in the glove box of an off road truck. When the remaining ammo was broken down they found engine vibration and bouncing over rough ground had turned the powder to dust.
Ammonia fumes from solvents can seep into an unsealed case neck.

I'd pull the bullets, dump the powder, then spray Penetrating oil into the case to deaden the primers before de-capping.
I'm fairing sure you can build a more accurate load using fresh powder and primers.

[Omega]

Not sure how long those errant rounds rattled around in the truck but I doubt a couple of hours would do that much to powder, otherwise we would of had many issues crossing the sands of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Clean them up check make sure brass is sound. Make sure no soft spots or holes. Shoot and clean gun after done, send oil patch down just in case.

[Mytmousemalibu]

If you want a couple of the empty boxes you can have those mytmousemalibu.

Cool, PM inbound!

[fatelk]

Edit- I didn't mean to sound like a dogmatic jerk. Please see post #26 about tumbling. Sorry.

Regarding tumbling live ammo; I've seen lots of threads on the topic over the years, and many people have done some very good controlled experiments including microscope photos and chronograph results (with controls) with various calibers and powders. Some of them ran their tumbling experiments for days on end. Everything that I have seen and read on the topic has convinced me that tumbling live ammo for a couple hours is harmless. If anyone is interested I can find and post the links. While not performed in a ballistics lab, they are thorough and pretty convincing.

The ammo in the glovebox example is always brought up, but is likely an example of a completely different phenomenon. What are the worst environmental conditions for gunpowder? Excessive heat, and a lot of hot/cold cycles. What are the typical conditions of a glove box? Excessive heat and hundreds of hot/cold cycles. When you think about it, it's quite obvious that a glove box is about the worst place in the world to store ammo, and not because of the vibrations.

To be honest, that ammo doesn't look bad at all to me. I've shot a lot worse. It all depends on whether that corrosion is just mild surface crud or something ugly inside working it's way out. I've had old powder go bad for some reason and it gets nasty inside before you see it outside but even then it makes ugly cracks in the necks as it seeps out.

If it were mine I would:

1. Give it all a short bath in a solution of Lemishine and warm water, followed by a good rinse and dry with a towel. Yes, I have washed live ammo in water. Unless there's holes in the brass or other serious corrosion problems a few minutes underwater won't hurt a thing. The way military ammo is sealed you could probably leave it underwater for a month without damage.

2. Shake each round to listen for a normal powder rattle. If any don't sound normal pull them apart to see what they look like inside. Actually I would pull a couple apart anyhow. I'd bet they are clean and shiny inside.

3. Tumble them for a couple hours. They might even be clean enough after the citric wash to not need tumbling. Personally I've tumbled a lot of live ammo over the years with never a problem. Don't overdo it- If it takes more than just a little while to clean up good enough to shoot, it's probably beyond salvage anyhow.

That's just what I would do.

[fatelk]

The stuff on the linked belts could be machine gun ammo (loaded to higher pressure)

USGI 30-06 ammo for MG use is loaded the same as 30-06 for rifle use, no difference in pressure. The only military caliber I know of off hand where this is not true is the 7.7x58 Arisaka. I've heard of people turning the rims down on MG ammo to use in rifles, and having problems.

[OptimusPanda]

Yup cause they decided that having a 7.7x58 and 7.7x58r was a great idea. Wasnt there a mk number of 303 brit that was specifically marked for machine gun use as it could wreck an SMLE?

[OptimusPanda]

fatelk, if you could find those links you were talking about I think it would make great reading.

[fatelk]

Here's one I found with a quick search: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/989047_Tumble_live_ammo_Tumbler_Oandapos__thruth_E XTREME_edition__200hour_torture_test__UPDATE__fire d_rounds_in_OP.html

This guy was thorough, but I've seen others that were more scientific. You know, I guess I should have a bit of a disclaimer before totally dismissing anyone who says it's unsafe to tumble live ammo. In that same search I found some that say Bad, bad, bad, don't do it!!! Here's an example: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/09/why-you-should-not-tumble-clean-loaded-ammo/ added- read the comments after the article

I think it was Lyman or someone in a loading manual who says it's bad because it could break down the powder. Those who use that argument are repeating what they read from a good source, so no discredit to them at all. I apologize if I came across that way. Personally I think that's erring on the safe side, as I have yet to see anyone replicate powder damage with any reasonable amount of tumbling, but I don't fault someone for erring on the safe side.

You might notice that the pro-tumbling guy had photos and specifics about his experiment, whereas the "Don't do it!" article basically said "Some people somewhere once did a study and decided it was bad" or "garage experiments prove nothing, because under certain conditions somewhere it's probably still bad". And they are probably right, hence the blanket warning that it BAD, BAD, BAD!

I found where Hodgdon says "Completed ammo should not be tumbled. The powder will degrade and increase in burn speed." With all due respect to Hodgdon, I wish they would go into it a little more than that. I've been following the issue for a long time and haven't seen anyone that has gotten any powder degradation from a reasonable amount of tumbling. This is using control lots, microscopes, chronographs, and match grade guns to test accuracy. Again, I think Hodgdon is erring on the safe side and I really don't blame them. Not at all.

I don't actually tumble live ammo very often (don't need to) and when I do it's not terribly long. I have been following the issue for a long time, though, and in any discussion about it you generally hear two different perspectives: "Scary, bad, don't do it!!! You'll blow yourself up!" vs. "I do it all the time without a problem."

So, here's my disclaimer. Please don't take my word for it. I'm just some random know-it-all on the internet. :) Do a google search for "tumbling live ammo". There's about a billion threads about it and lots of arguments pro and con. If you're not comfortable with it by all means don't do it. On looking again at the OP photo, I think I'd just give that ammo a lemishine wash and shoot it up, not bother tumbling.

[OptimusPanda]

That was a great link fatelk, thanks. If only I had a real way to measure chamber pressure and a test gun I didnt care about, it would be a neat test to put PSI numbers to. Though I suspect it would only verify his results.

[fatelk]

You're right. It would be interesting to do a real scientific test, complete with pressure testing equipment and all.

I kind of suspect it's a lot like the whole cast-in-a-Glock controversy. The factory says don't do it ever under any circumstances but lots of people do it safely and successfully every day. Under some circumstances it's a bad idea, but if you do it right it's fine. It's such a fun topic that we have a 27 page sticky about it right on our little forum here.

[Geezer in NH]

Tumbling live ammo can turn old powders into dust and blow up a gun. Some years back (80's?) a .44 Magnum revolver blew up after the ammo had spent a year or so in the glove box of an off road truck. When the remaining ammo was broken down they found engine vibration and bouncing over rough ground had turned the powder to dust.
Ammonia fumes from solvents can seep into an unsealed case neck.

I'd pull the bullets, dump the powder, then spray Penetrating oil into the case to deaden the primers before de-capping.
I'm fairing sure you can build a more accurate load using fresh powder and primers.

Internet falsehood

[Multigunner]

Nothing internet about it. As pointed out by others stories of powder turned to dust by vibration pre date the internet.
The British had serious problems with both black powder cylinder (when the compressed powder cylinder fractured the cartridge detonated on ignition ) and early Cordite loaded .303 cartridges, because the original Cordite formula left the strands brittle, this was corrected in later MTD and similar formulas.

Some powders may be far more resistant to crumbling into powder than others, but every time I've emptied a container of single base powder I've found dusty residue clinging to the interior. Ball powders and similar double base powders use Nitro-glycerin as a plasticizer as well as an energetic component and the granules are tougher than single base flake of extruded tube powders.

I can't see any reason to tumble rounds that aren't so corroded I'd as soon junk them any way. I clean up old cases by hand using a rag impregnated with white cerium oxide polishing compound.
That way I can inspect the surface of the case as I clean it up.

In a previous discussion on this a UK veteran mentioned his armored scout outfit always discarded un used ammo after two weeks of patrol duty. Apparently they did this to avoid possible problems with ammo bounced around in high temperature environments.

Those who insist on abusing ammunition in a manner it was not intended for can go right ahead, If the powder is of a sort that's resistant to breaking up and hasn't degraded in storage, worst that might happen is poor accuracy and perhaps a bent op rod. If the powder is a degraded single base, or in the case of some Foreign 7.62 NATO ammo loaded with WW2 surplus German flake powder and the powder was on its last legs before that ammo was manufactured fifty years ago who knows what might happen.

I tried cleaning up a batch of 7.62 like that years ago and found the cases were corroded inside and you could crush them between finger and thumb. The powder smelled like cat urine. Even the gilding metal cladding peeled off the steel jackets.
A case can polish up nice yet the ammo be severely degraded on the inside.

From the description the ammo in question wasn't that well stored.

[OptimusPanda]

Anyone know if this old match ammo had crimped primers? I can clearly see that they have been seal with a red sealant. I have never deprimed a live primer that has been crimped in the pocket. I cant imagine it being all that dangerous even if a universal decapper set it off (assuming rudimentary safety precautions like glasses).

[Herb in Pa]

Well said Multigunner, if someone wants to use a perfectly good rife as a test bed for a science project..........so be it. Like running recaps on a Ferrari!

[BattleRife]

That ammo doesn't look bad to me at all. It's dirty from things around it corroding and detiorating, but I don't see any indication of damage to the ammo itself. I would clean it up and shoot it.

The stuff about tumbling ammo changing the burning is definitely not an internet falsehood: I've seen that message posted in print dating back to at least the 70's. But it certainly does have all the signs of a falsehood. Like fatelk I've read the postings of several people who have designed experiments to challenge the theory, some of them tumbling single & double based powders in handgun and rifle cartridges for several months. None of them was able to perceive any change in the characteristics of the ammunition. On the other hand, I've yet to see or hear a single first account of tumbling or vibrating a cartridge causing problems. Sounds like a wive's tale to me.

The British .303 Mk 8Z cartridge was designed for the Vickers machine gun and reportedly was noticeablely hot if used in an Enfield rifle, but I've never heard that it actually was hard on the gun in any way.

[Char-Gar]

I have cleaned several thousand rounds more corroded that those pictured. Steel will will do it as well as using a fine wire wheel on the grinder.

[M-Tecs]

Post #30 has some good info on the effect of tumbling loaded ammo http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257949-tumbling-loaded-ammo/page2

[fatelk]

Post #30 has some good info on the effect of tumbling loaded ammo http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257949-tumbling-loaded-ammo/page2

Thank you for posting that. Those threads had more and better info than I came up with. It's interesting that this controversy has been going on for so many years, so many people have experimented with it and argued about it. Anything I could say would just be rehashing a worn out controversy. In the end there will always be those that do it cautiously and safely without any troubles, damage, or loss of accuracy. And there will be those who say but, but, but, it must be dangerous- I'm sure it is! To each their own.


Anyone know if this old match ammo had crimped primers? I can clearly see that they have been seal with a red sealant. I have never deprimed a live primer that has been crimped in the pocket. I cant imagine it being all that dangerous even if a universal decapper set it off (assuming rudimentary safety precautions like glasses).

What's the headstamp? I don't know that I've seen any USGI match brass that was ever crimped, so I expect not. I would like to tell you that decapping live primers is safe, even crimped (with your basic safety precautions), but surely someone else will come along and tell you that certainly it's not- you'll shoot your eye out!

[fatelk]

Well said Multigunner, if someone wants to use a perfectly good rife as a test bed for a science project..........so be it. Like running recaps on a Ferrari!
Then again, under most conditions recaps are quite safe. I wouldn't use them on a high performance car like a Ferrari of course... but neither would I try to make unsalvageable ammo useful by tumbling it. :)

I just thought that the ammo in question looked very salvageable, to me. It sounds like the OP is planning on, or in the process of, tearing it down for components. Though it might not be what I would do, it's certainly not a bad decision. If you're not comfortable with shooting it as is, a little time and the cost of some new powder and primers is small price for the confidence of having good ammo.

[Char-Gar]

When I bought my M1 a couple ammo boxes of odds and ends were thrown in with the sale. Among them was a metal linked belt with 30-06 AP, and a whole bunch of boxes of match ammo and many loose rounds like the ones in the picture. These have very clearly been stored improperly. The sealed ammo cans that held it all also once contained empty surplus solvent and oil cans which appear to have leaked into the ammo cans they were stored in. There's maybe 500 rounds total, all like this a mix of AP and match. Anyone had any luck cleaning these up, or tearing them apart? Would the brass and bullets still be useful after its poor storage exposed to whatever started eating away at it? If I can save the brass and bullets that might be the best outcome. Otherwise, if the whole lot is a lost cause where would one dispose of it?
147920

PM me for my shipping address. I will pay the postage/shipping and dispose of it properly.

[pretzelxx]

You should see the corrosion we had on some 50 Cal stuff we ran through our guns a month or so ago. I was paranoid it would kill someone. It all shot fine! Clean it up first tho imo.

[Got-R-Did]

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=119371
I encourage you to read the entire thread, and draw your own conclusions.
Got-R-Did.

[flounderman]

the red primers are corrosive , iff it hasn't been mentioned

[Got-R-Did]

With the exception of WRA M2AP which converted to N/C in June, 1954, all Cal. .30 ammunition delivered to the D.o.D. was Non Corrosive as of mid to late 1952.
All Mil-Spec USGI ammo uses an asphaltic sealant at the case neck/bullet juncture.
Got-R-Did.

[chboats]

Not all mil ammo stores were well. I had some LC77 Match, after 20 years of storage it varied from whiff to excessive pressures (difficult to open the bolt). Pulled the bullets, some, the powder was loose and poured out fine. Others were caked and had to dug out with a stick.

Carl

[Wild Bill 7]

Jmho, if there is any green crud around the primer, pull them. I have about 700 WWII 30-06 rounds that about 30 rounds had the crud around the primer. Pulled them and the powder was tainted. The rest are ok. Took a lot of time to pull them and reload each one with non corrossive primers but it was worth it. Shot about 20 so far and they were impressively accurate. Not too bad for ammo that is over 70 years old.

[MtGun44]

Machine gun ammo is NOT loaded to higher pressure.
Tumble and try. All the factories tumble loaded ammo.

[lefty o]

Machine gun ammo is NOT loaded to higher pressure.
Tumble and try. All the factories tumble loaded ammo.

all factories do not tumble loaded ammo!

[toot]

NEVER, NEVER tumble live ammo!! the guys are right, it breaks down the powder and changes the burning rate, and can cause a terrible spike in pressure! use 4000 steel wool and light oil, it will amaze you how clean they clean up.

[M-Tecs]

None of the testing that I can find shows any pressure spikes. I would be very interested in any actual confirmation of powder breakdown and pressure spikes.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=119371

http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/10/10/is-tumbling-loaded-ammo-dangerous/

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300510



Can you tumble live ammo in a vibratory cleaner?

Yeah I it's been re-hashed to death, but no one has put up any of the usual links yet.
So here's some light reading on the subject.

One of the best, most conclusive tests on tumbled live ammo and possible powder deterioration that I have seen.
Tumbling live ammo Tumbler O' truth - EXTREME edition 200 hour torture test.

My impression on the issue, is that it's not an issue.

Here's another thread.
Chronograph results. Tumbled vs non tumbled live ammunition.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-498890.html

Links were mined from the last Cast Boolits "Can you tumble live Ammunition" thread that I bothered to read/search for.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?173753-Tumbling-live-ammo

When I worked for a small reloading company, we always vibratory tumbled ALL of our loaded ammo. Doing so made it look new, nice and shiny before being boxed up, shrink wrapped, and placed on a pallet to be shipped or sold. Many other ammunition manufacturers do this same thing. Vibratory tumbling live ammo never caused any problems that we experienced, and I saw most of the common mistakes and accidents that can occur during the loading process.

I've tumbled my own loaded ammunition for many years with no problems to speak of. Lately I simply wipe my cast hand loads down. It seems like I only tumble jacketed stuff these days, or really oxidized funky ammunition.

A cap full of your favorite automotive wax in the tumbling media keeps brass that's not stored in air tight containers looking shiny and new for a good amount of time.

[1911cherry]

Boy this one turned into a dumpster fire didn't it? If you have not already just wipe em down and shoot em. What ever happens please let us all know what you did, fwiw I tumble old ammo and shoot it to get the brass ,no kabooms yet....

[OptimusPanda]

I had totally forgotten about this project until today! (other reloading projects have taken priority since the thread started) I do have a handful of them cleaned up. I just used a little solvent on a patch and maybe 70% of the crust comes off em. I intend to try them a couple at a time and see if they still fire acceptably. Otherwise, I picked up a used rcbs collet puller and collet if it comes to taking them apart. I did pull one for fun and the bullet had a black sealant between it and the inside of the case neck. The powder looked fine and had not visibly degraded. I'm not sure about the primer yet. I wanted to use a cutoff wheel and sacrifice the case from the round I pulled to see if the corrosion had gotten to the inside but I didn't, and doubt it did.

[N4AUD]

I wonder how much "tumbling" ammo gets in the military, riding in trucks and tanks and whatnot going off road and on dirt roads and everywhere else. I've never heard of an issue with it, and some of that stuff goes through a lot more abuse than a couple of hours in a tumbler. I do recall reading in Guns and Ammo back in the 70's or 80's warning about carrying cartridges in a vehicle but I think tumbling ammunition for a short time won't hurt it at all. I tumble my handloaded rounds to remove sizing oil, and I've never had a problem.

[Geezer in NH]

For the do not tumble guys. Never ever buy clean old ammo from big surplus sellers. Duh it is all been tumbled.

By they way don't shoot any ammo that has been transported in any vehicle used on rough roads.