ohland
08-30-2015, 10:30 AM
The Correct Twist for the 25-25
I cannot search for text reliably under Google, instead I have to download each volume and read it to be able to find things. The below link will get you to Volume 37, but you may have to scroll down to the specific page.
American Rifleman (Shooting and Fishing) volumes 32-36 are not on Google, so I cannot find "Vacation Echoes".. My guess is these articles would be in 34-35.
"An experienced rifleman, who has contributed to the columns of SHOOTING AND FISHING a series of articles entitled, Vacation Echoes, and who has written under the nom-de-plume of Aberdeen, gives us considerable very interesting data in regard to this question, and I would especially call attention to his articles in the issues of Oct. 30. 1902, and Nov. 5, 1903. "
https://books.google.com/books?id=EZMwAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:4_nJVSo-51oC&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQuwUwCGoVChMI2LbZmffQxwIVBqqACh2LFA2s#v=on epage&q&f=false
A NEW .25-25 SHELL. vol 37, No. 17, Feb 2 1905 Page 352
Owning a .25-20 single shot Winchester rifle and desiring to convert it to a .25-25 makes me wish that the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. was making a shell like the .25-20, only longer, so as to hold 25 grains of powder.
The idea in having such a shell would be to make rechambering easier, as the barrel would not have to be bushed, as would be necessary at present, owing to the .25-20 shell being larger in diameter at the base than the .25-25 now on the market. If there are others that feel as I do in the matter, let them say amen in SHOOTING AND FISHING.
Cheek Piece
A NEW .25 CALIBER SHELL. vol 37, #18, Feb 9 1905, page 393
I notice a suggestion in SHOOTING AND FISHING issue of Feb. 2, from Cheek Piece, requesting that the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. make a .25-25 cartridge having the same size head as the .25-20, its particular utility being that .25-20 rifles could be chambered over to take it. I would suggest, for the information of Cheek Piece, that not only would this cartridge be objectionable as tending to increase the already too large number of .25 caliber cartridges, with the consequent confusion, but also when the rifle is rechambered for such a shell he would find himself in the predicament of having too slow a twist for his cartridge. The proper twist for the .25-25 is twelve inches, while the Winchester Company rifle the .25-20 with fourteen-inch twist. Therefore his experience would be unsatisfactory owing to the keyholing of the bullets.
C. N.
Buffalo, N. Y.
THE CORRECT TWIST FOR THE .25-25. vol 37, No. 19, Feb 16 1905 page 411
I noticed in the Feb. 16 issue of SHOOTING AND FISHING a paragraph by C. N., in reply to Cheek Piece, in which he states that the correct twist for the .25-25 is twelve inches, and that a fourteen inch twist with that cartridge is not sufficient to prevent keyholing. If he refers to a .25-25 cartridge loaded with a bullet heavier than the standard (86 grains), as is often done, he is doubtless right, but the regular .25-25 is made up with the same bullet as the .25-20, and he supposedly refers to the regular cartridge.
I would like to ask the writer if an increase of charge from 20 to 25 grains, with the 86-grain bullet, would necessitate an increase of twist, as his statement seems to me to imply, and, in general, if it is true, that an increase of velocity from that at which a given bullet flies true, tends toward tipping, unless accompanied by an increased twist.
It is, I believe, established, that an excessive twist causes tipping; yet, if the first be also true, we could have a tipping caused by excessive velocity, corrected by excessive twist, which latter alone would cause tipping. If this is in accord with known laws of ballistics, I should like to know it.
I believe that the Winchester, Stevens, and Remington companies use fourteen, thirteen, and twelve-inch twists, respectively, in their .25-20-86 rifles- Now, even assuming that a fourteen-inch twist is too slow for the 86-grain bullet, would an increase of powder, and hence of velocity, increase the tipping, or would it, like an increase of twist, tend to diminish it, but in a lesser degree?
I have done considerable experimenting with a .25-20, as well as with other rifles, and ask these questions for information, and not at all in a spirit of criticism, and shall be glad to hear the views of any rifleman regarding the above queries. Though new to me, they are doubtless old to many, but SHOOTING AND FISHING is always glad to give riflemen a chance to thresh over old straw.
K. M. W.
THE TWIST FOR THE .25-25 RIFLE vol 37, No. 20, Feb 16 1905 page 431
I am under the impression that the length of bullet in comparison with its diameter governs the twist, the longer bullet requiring a quicker twist. The velocity modifies this to a certain extent. For instance, to use a 96-grain bullet in a .25 caliber it would, I think, be necessary to increase the twist, or the velocity, or to a lesser extent both.
Practically speaking, I think I can testify that the ordinary twist would be sufficient for the prospective .25-25 bottle neck, assuming it would use the 86-grain bullet, as I have a Zischang .25 and know of two others, which use about 28 grains of powder and handle bullets close to 100 grains. These rifles have a fourteen-inch twist, the same as the Winchester.
For the .25-20, which is really a .25-18 or .25-19, with an 86-grain bullet, a fourteen-inch twist is considered a trifle slow, according to Mr. Barlow, and he ought to know.
This would tend to show that more powder obviates the necessity of an increase in twist, when using a longer bullet, provided it is not too long, and with the ordinary bullet the twist could probably be made slower and still be sufficient.
Cheltonian (?)
THE CORRECT TWIST FOR .25 CALIBER RIFLES. Page 472 – 473
I notice that considerable discussion regarding the proper twist for the .25-25 cartridge has been brought out by my reply, published in SHOOTING AND FISHING, issue of Feb. 16, to the suggestion of a correspondent for the manufacture of a bottled neck .25-25 cartridge. My opinion in regard to the proper twist for the .25-25 is derived not from personal experience, but from reading the experience of others.
An experienced rifleman, who has contributed to the columns of SHOOTING AND FISHING a series of articles entitled, Vacation Echoes, and who has written under the nom-de-plume of Aberdeen, gives us considerable very interesting data in regard to this question, and I would especially call attention to his articles in the issues of Oct. 30. 1902, and Nov. 5, 1903. This gentleman has made a very thorough study of the .25 calibers, and his final conclusion was that the thirteen-inch twist was the best for all around work in the .25-21, while the .25-25 required a still quicker twist, if heavier bullets were used. Also the experience of our best rifle makers leads the Remington Arms Co. to rifle the .25-20 with a twelve-inch twist, the Marlin Fire Arms Co. uses a twelve inch, and the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., the thirteen-inch; therefore, the weight of this authority is decidedly in favor of a twist for the .25-20 which is quicker than the Winchester fourteen-inch twist.
When I suggested that the .25-25 would require a quicker twist than the .25-20, I assumed that the marksman intended using a more powerful charge and would use a bullet heavier than the 86-grain; since if all he desires is to increase the pressure somewhat behind the regular 86-grain bullet, it is only necessary in order to accomplish this to use the Laflin & Rand Sporting Rifle smokeless powder or some other dense powder adapted to use in black powder rifles, as there is ample room in the shell to get any pressure which he desires.
This would be much better than confusing the trade by putting on the market another .25-25 cartridge, and would save the rechambering of his rifle and give him a wide sweep of ammunition, all in the same shell; in fact, if he wishes to use even heavier bullets than the 86—grain, if his twist is sufficient to carry them, he can always get sufficient power by using these dense smokeless powders, and the excellent series made by the Laflin & Rand Powder Co. will give him powder adapted to almost any weight of bullet which he desires.
As to the question of whether or not increased velocity tends toward increased stability in the bullet, my experience, although not very extensive, has been to the effect that it does not, and my present conclusion is that it requires a quicker twist to carry a bullet at a high velocity than it does to carry the same bullet at a more moderate velocity. However, my observations on this point are confined to watching a rifle club shoot at 500 yards with .32-40 rifles. Part of the members use the .32-40 black powder charge, and part of them use the .32-40 high power, which gives a velocity of about 2000 feet per second. My conclusions after watching a few of the matches were that there were many more unaccountable shots from the high power rifles than there were from the black powder. This conclusion was arrived at alter taking into consideration the general steadiness of the individual shooter, the type character, and condition of the gun used, etc.
I expect to make some more extensive investigations in this line the coming summer, to determine whether or not the increased velocity adds to or detracts from the stability of the bullet.
C. N.
I cannot search for text reliably under Google, instead I have to download each volume and read it to be able to find things. The below link will get you to Volume 37, but you may have to scroll down to the specific page.
American Rifleman (Shooting and Fishing) volumes 32-36 are not on Google, so I cannot find "Vacation Echoes".. My guess is these articles would be in 34-35.
"An experienced rifleman, who has contributed to the columns of SHOOTING AND FISHING a series of articles entitled, Vacation Echoes, and who has written under the nom-de-plume of Aberdeen, gives us considerable very interesting data in regard to this question, and I would especially call attention to his articles in the issues of Oct. 30. 1902, and Nov. 5, 1903. "
https://books.google.com/books?id=EZMwAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:4_nJVSo-51oC&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEcQuwUwCGoVChMI2LbZmffQxwIVBqqACh2LFA2s#v=on epage&q&f=false
A NEW .25-25 SHELL. vol 37, No. 17, Feb 2 1905 Page 352
Owning a .25-20 single shot Winchester rifle and desiring to convert it to a .25-25 makes me wish that the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. was making a shell like the .25-20, only longer, so as to hold 25 grains of powder.
The idea in having such a shell would be to make rechambering easier, as the barrel would not have to be bushed, as would be necessary at present, owing to the .25-20 shell being larger in diameter at the base than the .25-25 now on the market. If there are others that feel as I do in the matter, let them say amen in SHOOTING AND FISHING.
Cheek Piece
A NEW .25 CALIBER SHELL. vol 37, #18, Feb 9 1905, page 393
I notice a suggestion in SHOOTING AND FISHING issue of Feb. 2, from Cheek Piece, requesting that the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. make a .25-25 cartridge having the same size head as the .25-20, its particular utility being that .25-20 rifles could be chambered over to take it. I would suggest, for the information of Cheek Piece, that not only would this cartridge be objectionable as tending to increase the already too large number of .25 caliber cartridges, with the consequent confusion, but also when the rifle is rechambered for such a shell he would find himself in the predicament of having too slow a twist for his cartridge. The proper twist for the .25-25 is twelve inches, while the Winchester Company rifle the .25-20 with fourteen-inch twist. Therefore his experience would be unsatisfactory owing to the keyholing of the bullets.
C. N.
Buffalo, N. Y.
THE CORRECT TWIST FOR THE .25-25. vol 37, No. 19, Feb 16 1905 page 411
I noticed in the Feb. 16 issue of SHOOTING AND FISHING a paragraph by C. N., in reply to Cheek Piece, in which he states that the correct twist for the .25-25 is twelve inches, and that a fourteen inch twist with that cartridge is not sufficient to prevent keyholing. If he refers to a .25-25 cartridge loaded with a bullet heavier than the standard (86 grains), as is often done, he is doubtless right, but the regular .25-25 is made up with the same bullet as the .25-20, and he supposedly refers to the regular cartridge.
I would like to ask the writer if an increase of charge from 20 to 25 grains, with the 86-grain bullet, would necessitate an increase of twist, as his statement seems to me to imply, and, in general, if it is true, that an increase of velocity from that at which a given bullet flies true, tends toward tipping, unless accompanied by an increased twist.
It is, I believe, established, that an excessive twist causes tipping; yet, if the first be also true, we could have a tipping caused by excessive velocity, corrected by excessive twist, which latter alone would cause tipping. If this is in accord with known laws of ballistics, I should like to know it.
I believe that the Winchester, Stevens, and Remington companies use fourteen, thirteen, and twelve-inch twists, respectively, in their .25-20-86 rifles- Now, even assuming that a fourteen-inch twist is too slow for the 86-grain bullet, would an increase of powder, and hence of velocity, increase the tipping, or would it, like an increase of twist, tend to diminish it, but in a lesser degree?
I have done considerable experimenting with a .25-20, as well as with other rifles, and ask these questions for information, and not at all in a spirit of criticism, and shall be glad to hear the views of any rifleman regarding the above queries. Though new to me, they are doubtless old to many, but SHOOTING AND FISHING is always glad to give riflemen a chance to thresh over old straw.
K. M. W.
THE TWIST FOR THE .25-25 RIFLE vol 37, No. 20, Feb 16 1905 page 431
I am under the impression that the length of bullet in comparison with its diameter governs the twist, the longer bullet requiring a quicker twist. The velocity modifies this to a certain extent. For instance, to use a 96-grain bullet in a .25 caliber it would, I think, be necessary to increase the twist, or the velocity, or to a lesser extent both.
Practically speaking, I think I can testify that the ordinary twist would be sufficient for the prospective .25-25 bottle neck, assuming it would use the 86-grain bullet, as I have a Zischang .25 and know of two others, which use about 28 grains of powder and handle bullets close to 100 grains. These rifles have a fourteen-inch twist, the same as the Winchester.
For the .25-20, which is really a .25-18 or .25-19, with an 86-grain bullet, a fourteen-inch twist is considered a trifle slow, according to Mr. Barlow, and he ought to know.
This would tend to show that more powder obviates the necessity of an increase in twist, when using a longer bullet, provided it is not too long, and with the ordinary bullet the twist could probably be made slower and still be sufficient.
Cheltonian (?)
THE CORRECT TWIST FOR .25 CALIBER RIFLES. Page 472 – 473
I notice that considerable discussion regarding the proper twist for the .25-25 cartridge has been brought out by my reply, published in SHOOTING AND FISHING, issue of Feb. 16, to the suggestion of a correspondent for the manufacture of a bottled neck .25-25 cartridge. My opinion in regard to the proper twist for the .25-25 is derived not from personal experience, but from reading the experience of others.
An experienced rifleman, who has contributed to the columns of SHOOTING AND FISHING a series of articles entitled, Vacation Echoes, and who has written under the nom-de-plume of Aberdeen, gives us considerable very interesting data in regard to this question, and I would especially call attention to his articles in the issues of Oct. 30. 1902, and Nov. 5, 1903. This gentleman has made a very thorough study of the .25 calibers, and his final conclusion was that the thirteen-inch twist was the best for all around work in the .25-21, while the .25-25 required a still quicker twist, if heavier bullets were used. Also the experience of our best rifle makers leads the Remington Arms Co. to rifle the .25-20 with a twelve-inch twist, the Marlin Fire Arms Co. uses a twelve inch, and the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., the thirteen-inch; therefore, the weight of this authority is decidedly in favor of a twist for the .25-20 which is quicker than the Winchester fourteen-inch twist.
When I suggested that the .25-25 would require a quicker twist than the .25-20, I assumed that the marksman intended using a more powerful charge and would use a bullet heavier than the 86-grain; since if all he desires is to increase the pressure somewhat behind the regular 86-grain bullet, it is only necessary in order to accomplish this to use the Laflin & Rand Sporting Rifle smokeless powder or some other dense powder adapted to use in black powder rifles, as there is ample room in the shell to get any pressure which he desires.
This would be much better than confusing the trade by putting on the market another .25-25 cartridge, and would save the rechambering of his rifle and give him a wide sweep of ammunition, all in the same shell; in fact, if he wishes to use even heavier bullets than the 86—grain, if his twist is sufficient to carry them, he can always get sufficient power by using these dense smokeless powders, and the excellent series made by the Laflin & Rand Powder Co. will give him powder adapted to almost any weight of bullet which he desires.
As to the question of whether or not increased velocity tends toward increased stability in the bullet, my experience, although not very extensive, has been to the effect that it does not, and my present conclusion is that it requires a quicker twist to carry a bullet at a high velocity than it does to carry the same bullet at a more moderate velocity. However, my observations on this point are confined to watching a rifle club shoot at 500 yards with .32-40 rifles. Part of the members use the .32-40 black powder charge, and part of them use the .32-40 high power, which gives a velocity of about 2000 feet per second. My conclusions after watching a few of the matches were that there were many more unaccountable shots from the high power rifles than there were from the black powder. This conclusion was arrived at alter taking into consideration the general steadiness of the individual shooter, the type character, and condition of the gun used, etc.
I expect to make some more extensive investigations in this line the coming summer, to determine whether or not the increased velocity adds to or detracts from the stability of the bullet.
C. N.