Ultra-Light Rifle Loads

[dsh1106]

Has anyone out there attempted working with these loads as mentioned in the NRA hand-loaders Guide?


I've went through all 174 pages in this section and found some really interesting reads, but nothing on this subject.



Thanks

[762 shooter]

Search here for "cat sneeze, mouse fart, gallery loads" and your head may explode.

762

[Nowherefound]

Like 762 said, tons of information out there. I have been playing around with Unique and Red Dot for a while for plinking loads and have gotten good enough results at the 50 and 100 yard lines. I would love to test some of the 2400 reduced rifle loads but that powder has been a unicorn as of late.

[Mauser48]

I have been doing this with 30-06. There are a couple threads on my profile if you are interested.

[Outpost75]

This web site has lots of data: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[Char-Gar]

Ed Harris has done much work on this business of soft plain base cast bullet shoved out the barrel at sub sonic velocity. His work on this subject is well worth reading.

[dsh1106]

I have found quite a bit of info on this subject for the 3006, what are the thoughts of using that data for developing some 270 loads?

Thanks
Scott

[OnHoPr]

Here is reloading data from 3rd ed of Lyman cast boolit handbook. You may even be able to go lower with the faster powders, with a possible suggestion. Look at the pressures, to run those pressures you should have a tougher alloy and great boolit fit, like WQWWs, for any type of accuracy.
147792147793147794

[dsh1106]

Here is reloading data from 3rd ed of Lyman cast boolit handbook. You may even be able to go lower with the faster powders, with a possible suggestion. Look at the pressures, to run those pressures you should have a tougher alloy and great boolit fit, like WQWWs, for any type of accuracy.
147792147793147794

Thanks, OnHoPr

I have that book as well, I'd like to get down into the 500-750 fps range.

Thanks
Scott

[OnHoPr]

Maybe you should look into the Dacron Reloaders Manual and how many grains of Dacron.:kidding::bigsmyl2:

I supposed you could get down into the 5 grain range with one of the faster shotgun powder like Red dot.
But, I would look into any type of bad side effects of too much dacron as I have seen in some applications that it might be slightly damaging to the chamber.

[JWFilips]

Simple: 6 Gr Bullseye...Record your Results; Then try 5gr then try 7gr ( 30 cal & up) you will be amazed at the accuracy !

[GhostHawk]

Been having pretty good success loading 4.6 grains of Red Dot in everything from .223 under Bator bullet, to 7.62x39 or even in .357 mag. Works well in the .300BO also but don't expect them to cycle your action. But for a bolt or single shot they make nice quiet, accurate replacements for .22lr with low cost, low nose and lots of thump on the far end.

Your mileage may vary.

[Eddie2002]

Here's a good source that covers a lot of info.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm

[bangerjim]

I shoot lite loads in long guns all the time. That is the fun of rolling your own......you are not reliant on commercial loaded ammo and what someone thinks a cart should perform at!

Look for all those names mentioned in post #2. That will keep you busy until Christmas!!!!!!

Just make sure the boolit exits the barrel!!!!!! Not fun when it does not and the next one comes along.

banger

[Good Cheer]

Been told that Titegroup is even less position sensitive than Bullseye. Anyone know if that is the case?

[LAGS]

I got tired of trying to get a Consistant Light Load in my 30-06 and several others, So i just bouhgt a Chamber Inserts to reduce the caliber to .32 pistol.
I can shoot 32 S&W, .32 ACP .32 Long and .32 H&R Mag out of the same insert.
The .32 S&W makes less noise than a .22 LR
And I can reduce those loads even lower where the bullet barly comes out of the barrel and goes 50 feet.

[Outpost75]

In my testing, the Sportsman’s Guide chamber inserts in the .303 British and 7.62x54R worked well. I cannot recommend the ones they offer for .308 Winchester and .30-‘06 because mine and those used by friends all had “issues” which will I will explain later.

I currently have and use the adapters for the .303 and 7.62x4R to use .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long/H&R Mag., ammo. RWS .32 ACP hardball when fired in a rifle adapter is very quiet and shoots close to point of aim at 50 feet with the battle sight set to 300 yards or meters. The .32 H&R Magnum insert is louder, but is more accurate. It also works with .32 S&W Long ammo, which is quiet like the .32 ACP. My use for these adapters is to include in my hunting kit when carrying a handgun in the same caliber.
Once you experiment with the adapters enough to confirm good sight dope, they work up close for small game, to conserve your big game rounds.

GREAT CAUTION is required if attempting to use these adapters in rimless calibers!

Neither my .308 Win. nor .30-'06 adapters from Sportsman's Guide would fit into a Wilson Max. Cartridge gage. Both required modification to adjust dimensions which were "off". Even so, I succeeded in "sticking" a .30-06 adapter in the chamber of an 03A3 Springfield. I was able to extract it out by carefully forcing the bolt closed over it, then inserting a narrow blade screwdriver between the extractor and receiver ring to prevent the extractor from hopping off the rim until I could open the bolt with carefully applied blows of a dead-blow lead hammer. Had I tried the adapter in a plunger-ejector "slam-feeder" such as a Remington 700, it would have required gunsmith removal of the barrel to get it out!

These adapters have recently been offered to use surplus 7.62x25 ammunition. I DO NOT recommend this because the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge is loaded to about 40,000 psi vs. 20,000 for the .32 ACP. The thin-walled steel adapter will in short order expand to tightly conform to the rifle chamber. If your chamber is smooth and perfectly round, you might get away with it, but if rough or out of round in places, you WILL "stick" the adapter in the rifle chamber! Re-read the previous paragraph above! The fact that extracting fired 7.62x25 brass from these adapters requires a punch & base set and a HAMMER is a clue!

Sub-caliber adapters work best in RIMMED calibers such as the .303 British and 7.62x54R RIMMED cartridges, in military surplus rifles which have fairly sloppy, "forgiving" tolerances which ease extraction of the adapter. Typical groups I expect are about an inch at 50 feet with iron sights. Don’t expect much better.

I have similar adapters from MCA Specialties which let be use .32 ACP or .32 S&W Long in my Winchester 94 and H&R Handi Rifle in .30-30 and I have been well pleased with those.

BUT, if you handload, simply making your own reduced power small game loads for your center-fire rifle makes A LOT more sense. If you don’t cast your own bullets a charge of 6 grains of Bullseye or 7 grains of 231 or Titegroup with a 110-grain jacketed bullet in any .30 caliber deer rifle from 7.62x39 to .30-’06 capacity will exit the barrel every time.

If using lubricated lead cast bullets intended for the .32 S&W Long or .32-20 you can go as light as 4 grains of Bullseye or 5 grains of 231 or TiteGroup and bore-exit will be reliable in the .30-'06, .303 British and 7.62x54R. Easily ignited, fast-burning pistol powders and NO FILLERS are important here, because use of wads to take up free airspace in the case may cause ringed chambers. Powders which are slower than Unique are unsuitable for greatly reduced loads and will give erratic velocities in severely reduced loads, and may provide unpleasant surprises which range from bullets stuck in barrels to blown up rifles!

Fast burning pistol and shotgun powders recommended for .38 Special and .45 ACP wadcutter target loads and 12-ga. shotgun powders used for light field and target loads work best. Reduced loads with jacketed bullets are much more problematic and velocities must be kept above 900 f.p.s. to ensure reliable bore exit. Lighter bullets of short bearing length which have less bore drag are best. Additional precautions are necessary with longer bearing length jacketed subsonic loads intended for suppressor use. The barrel must be clean and should be LIGHTLY oiled, being wiped and excess oil then removed with one dry patch to avoid sticking a bullet in the bore. OR just increase the charge a grain or so to adjust velocity high enough to ensure reliable bore-exit, but remain subsonic for low noise (1050 +/- 30 fps).

Best is to use a well lubricated cast lead bullet which has much less bore drag.

If you experiment enough with reduced loads, you WILL stick a bullet in the bore eventually. The safe way to remove this is type of obstruction is with a SQUIBB ROD from Brownells, which threads onto a Dewey rifle rod using an adapter. To remove your stuck bullet, extract the fired case, open the action and remove any remaining cartridges in the magazine. Use an eyedropper to deposit a few ccs of penetrating oil, such as Kano Kroil down the muzzle, then stand the rifle in a corner for 10-15 minutes while you contemplate your sin. While the oil is “working,” thread the squibb rod onto your cleaning rod. After a suitable wait interval, insert the rod with squibb rod attached down the muzzle and start tapping the bullet out with a multitude of many LIGHT taps.

DO NOT use a hammer! Patience! Learn from your experience.

[bangerjim]

Been told that Titegroup is even less position sensitive than Bullseye. Anyone know if that is the case?

TG's bragging point is: "The lease position sensitive power on the market". So they say.

I tend to agree>>>>>> I use it as my standard (and ETR7) pistol and carbine powder. Works great. Not dirty and smoky like Unique. Once I tried TG, I got rid of all the several bottles of Unique I had! Never will use it again. TG load data is everywhere for just about everything.

banger

[LAGS]

I have been able to extract stuck adapters and seperated cases from a chamber with Cerosafe.
You plug the barrel just ahead of the chamber like you are doing a chamber casting, fill the case or adapter with Cerosafe, and when it cools, tap it out.
If the casting goes in front of the end of the case neck, there usually is enough bite to remove a stuck seperated case.
Of all my rifles shot with Reduced Cast Bullet loads, the .303 was the most consistant with Unique and Bullseye.
I will have to give TG a try.

[Jackpine]

Check the Hodgdon site. They have a specific listing for reduced loads with H4895 listing many calibers. Also Trail Boss. I know they list specific loads for Cowboy Action long range loadings, but I called them several years ago and was told it could be loaded in just about anything with cast bullets. Check their recommendation, but I think they told me to start out with about 70% of max case capacity and work up watching for pressure signs but NEVER compress. I have had good luck with both powders in 30-30, 38-55, 45-70, 308 and 30-06.

Good luck,

Jackpine

[tdoyka]

i use trail boss, jacketed and cast, for 223, 6.5 creedmoor, 270, 308, 30-06, 30-30, 30-40 krag, 243, 44 mag, 444, 45-70....

i really like tb. tb is real good at shooting cans, paper, targets and depending on the caliber, deer.

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-Reduced-Loads%20R_P.pdf

[stubby1]

Is there a similar recipe for 5744 powder for large bore rifle with cast boolit reduced loads ?

[OnHoPr]

I have that book as well, I'd like to get down into the 500-750 fps range.


Getting down to the 500 fps range might be pretty hard to do with a conscious IMO. Powder sensitive positioning, what would the extreme spreads or pressures be that low. Would you have enough pressure to expand the case against the wall of the chamber for a good seal, or how much blowback. Would every boolit exit the chamber. How much dacron and would there be any chamber side effects. JMO you would need a really fast powder to get the case to seal in the chamber like Win WAA Lite, Nitro 100, or e3. I'm guessing a heavier boolit would help the initial case sealing and reduce velocity.

[dsh1106]

I loaded 20 rounds using a 208468S
5 rds @ 8.4 grains
5 rds @ 8.5 grains
5 rds @ 8.7 grains
5 rds @ 8.8 grains

Thanks to all for all the help & guidance so far.

Went to the range today, all went well.

Here's the results .....

Shots were off the bench (no sandbags)
- approx. 2-3 mph cross wind

[dsh1106]

Made back to the range today.

Much better results than last time.

[alamogunr]

If this has been referenced, I missed it. A little different take on the subject.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

[FLHTC]

Simple: 6 Gr Bullseye...Record your Results; Then try 5gr then try 7gr ( 30 cal & up) you will be amazed at the accuracy !

Ditto

[Wolfer]

Ditto
Ditto again.

[tarbe]

This thread made me go back into my loading data books...

In December of 1974 it was too cold to go outside shooting (Wisconsin)...so I took a steel plate and built a 2x4 frame to hold it over a large wash tub full of water in the basement.

I loaded 2 grains of Green Dot (what I had!) and a 130gr Lee cast boolit in my 7mm Rem Mag. A tuft of cotton over the powder, to hold it down near the primer.

I had just turned 17 at the time. I had no relatives who loaded or cast. I had interest, and a few books.

My, how times have changed! :) Now we have the internet and can learn from millions of folks while sitting at the kitchen table.

Of course, some of what we learn is not so good! lol