Please help me start reloading for 45 colt for my SAAs

[Stopsign32v]

I have a LEE classic single stage press. I have a bag of 45 colt new brass and 1000 Winchester WLP large pistol primers. Other than that, I'm clueless.

Please don't write me off as a lost cause because I am a fast learner. However I have never reloaded but eager to learn.

I will be loading black powder (probably Goex) and would like to load as close to original specs as possible for that "feel like you were there".

I didn't know how hard it would be to find bullets for loading. I found a ton of casts for them but I don't believe I want to cast my own bullets. I'm unsure what powder to get because I see people talk about FFFg and also loading FFg. If it matters I will also be loading 10ga and 12ga brass shotgun loads.

I guess my main question is what equipment will I need and where can I find bullets? I read a 4" drop tube is a good option for pistol rounds but I also read it isn't needed.

[Cowboy_Dan]

.45 Colt was my first caliber to reload as well. You will need a set of dies and a good scale. A powder measure is nice, but you could make scoops out of just about anything. For black powder, I think you'll want soft boolits, rather than the excessively hard comercial cast boolits, but I've been wrong before. A good loading manual is also a must, in your case a black powder manual. Read it before you reload a single cartridge.

As far as powder goes, fffg is traditional for pistols, but you could probably get away with ffg in a pinch. Caveat on that last statement is I only use black in my muzzle loader, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Bzcraig]

This is no way an insincere response but rather the best I can give you. Before you spend any money, spend a lot more time reading and researching about reloading. Buy at least two, or better yet, as many as you can afford, reloading books. Reloading is so much more than having some brass, finding a boolit, sticking it in a press, adding some powder, loading in a gun and pulling the trigger. I spent a year consuming everything I could at this website, which is the best btw, and others before I began to acquire any equipment.

[AtomHeartMother]

I shoot 45 colt in a Howell conversion Remington new model army. I can definitely appreciate your interest in black powder. I have 10 cap ball revolvers-love shooting them. That being said my new model army gets the most affection with smokeless loads. I still get the experience of firing an old style pistol but the convenience and ease of reloading smokeless 45 colt is wonderful. You may want to consider starting there and then once you get some experience try some black powder loads. I cast my own 230 grain boolits under a light load of 800x powder...great fun and at the end of the day no lengthy clean up.

[smokeywolf]

Bzcraig is giving you the best advice you could get. Buy at least 2 books and read them. This will save you money in the long run and might even save you from injury and a sizable hospital bill.

My father started me pulling on a press handle by the time I was 3 years old. After all these years I still love sticking my nose in an old dog-eared reloading or ballistics book.

Welcome to a wonderful hobby.

[Djones]

This is a good start to cover the basics.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/abcs-of-reloading-rodney-james/1100362045/2671910229485?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP1755&k_clickid=3x1755&kpid=2671910229485

[StrawHat]

Lot's of folks suggest you start reading but no one has mentioned any reloading books specific to black powder. Truth is, I can not think of one either. There are a few fora that have info on black powder reloading, some better than others.

Fact is, reloading with BLACK POWDER is not really that hard. Some simple rules need to be followed.

You are striving for 100% loading density, you want the base of the bullet to be at the top of the powder or even to slightly crush the powder.

You want to use a black powder compatible lubricant on the boolit.

You will need mild primer of some sort to start the powder.

A good set of dies and a press of some sort round out the equation.

That is the basics. More can be learned by reading on fora like this one and others.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?PHPSESSID=40u3q4uc203j5r1dd0hdefkq76&board=19.0

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=e2c088a5b6b6ea7b1effa2806a3b2c 41&board=18.0

There are others but those two will get you some information.

Kevin

[cajun shooter]

If you are shooting or wanting to shoot in SASS matches then you need some extra advise from what you have been told so far. I started shooting SASS matches about 8 years ago with the 45 Colt. If you follow some simple rules it's very easy to get stated.
They have several books that you may read to get you a good start. The book that is on the Cast Boolits Forum in the sticky section that is named "FROM INGOT TO TARGET" by Glen Fryxell and Ron Applegate is a great start for the casting part.
They have a man by the name of SAM FADALA that has written many books, about 4 or more on the loading and shooting of BP guns. Look on Amazon for those. You also have the excellent books by Mike Venturino of which I would start with the Shooting Six Guns Of The Old West followed by the Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West.
I have shot nothing but BP guns in SASS since 2007 and now I shoot the 44wcf firearms. I'll go into that later.
You don't want to shoot 3F powder as it will give more recoil and muzzle flash than the better suited 2F powder. Stick with the new Olde Eynsford or KIK powders. They maybe purchased from Jerrys Powder INC in Arkansas.
To start out with the 45 Colt, I would recommend you use 45 Schofield cases for loading and shooting until you have a good feel for the sport. I'm not a fan of what is referred to as the mouse fart loads but when starting out, you need to get your feet wet first. The 45 Schofield case will hold about 27 grains as compared to the 35 or more of the Colt case. More control and using less powder.
If you do get into the sport of SASS then I can help you out with the shotgun loading a little later.
You need to purchase some Ballistol for cleaning your guns along with some EEzox oil to prevent rusting.
They have several people who have never fired the first round of BP but they will tell you all about how it will rust your gun as soon as it's fired. All a bunch of old wives tales. You don't need to crash course this new to you sport, so go easy and start with the reading. Everything you know about shooting that other powder and then cleaning afterwards is completely different.
I will be more than happy to help in any way I can if you contact me via a PM. Take Care David

[w5pv]

Couple of things I learned the hard way to do with new brass,resize,check the trim length and go from there

[Ken in Iowa]

Welcome to Cast Boolits Stopsign. I see that you are broadening your horizons. :)

Here is a source for Boolits that are specifically tailored for BP. http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

The owner is a frequent poster here and a good guy to do business with.

[DougGuy]

Size all your new brass before loading. It will give better neck tension after sizing.

[44man]

BP is easy and much good info has been said. About any good .45 boolit as long as it fits. I would only worry about being groove size or a little over.
Soft lead is fine for BP and you don't want too tight a fit in the brass with soft but there are no restrictions with boolit hardness either. Tension is not too important with BP.
The boolit MUST touch the powder is all and if you need to compress your load, do that before seating, Don't use the boolit to compress if it is soft. You can use wads over the powder for lighter loads as long as the boolit is on the wad, no gap.
However, I agree you need some books.
To clean the gun, remove the grips and cylinder and stick the whole gun in the laundry tub and wash it. Run very hot water through it all and dry, Spray with a good product like Barricade or Ballistol that will also lube the gun. Lube the cylinder pin, ratchet and front bushing with STP oil treatment and you will not wear the gun and it helps get more shots before binding up.
Glad to have you here and have fun.

[Char-Gar]

I have a LEE classic single stage press. I have a bag of 45 colt new brass and 1000 Winchester WLP large pistol primers. Other than that, I'm clueless.

Please don't write me off as a lost cause because I am a fast learner. However I have never reloaded but eager to learn.

I will be loading black powder (probably Goex) and would like to load as close to original specs as possible for that "feel like you were there".

I didn't know how hard it would be to find bullets for loading. I found a ton of casts for them but I don't believe I want to cast my own bullets. I'm unsure what powder to get because I see people talk about FFFg and also loading FFg. If it matters I will also be loading 10ga and 12ga brass shotgun loads.

I guess my main question is what equipment will I need and where can I find bullets? I read a 4" drop tube is a good option for pistol rounds but I also read it isn't needed.

Like others, my counsel to you is to buy some good reloading handbooks and read them cover to cover before asking questions on the internet. I say this for two reasons;

1. You are most likely to receive good and bad advice on the internet, and you need some basic information in order to judge which is which.

2. Along the same path, being dependent on gun boards for basic information is not a good think and that dependence will come back to bite you sooner or later.

[Stopsign32v]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Ken good to see a friendly familiar place here. I've fallen hard for the ol single actions. Used to would never give them a second look.

I looked at amazon for some books but came back empty handed. Ill check more tonight when I can get to a computer rather than a phone.

So JPS big lube bullets are good to go?? Also how do I gauge my pistol to see if I need 252 or 254 cast?

thanks a ton for the help, everyone here seems extremely nice.

[Char-Gar]

The Lyman handloading book is a good place to start.

[Foto Joe]

StrawHat hit the nail on the head, reloading Black Powder and reloading smokeless are NOT comparable. Black Powder can be both safer yet more hazardous than smokeless and rules regarding smokeless don't cross over to the Holy Black. Reloading books are a good idea but don't expect much if any information helpful to your endeavor.

Regarding fffg versus ffg, the original load was using a balloon head case which held approximately 40gr of ffg under a 250gr (I think) boolit. Given the modern brass we use you won't cram 40gr of ffg or even fffg into a case. For my version of mil-spec 45 Colt loads I compress 38gr of fffg under a 200-210gr boolit. I will tell you right now that these loads HURT!!! My typical load is around 25-30gr of fffg under the same boolit using cornmeal filler to take up the extra space.

On sizing I recommend not sizing 45 Colt brass. It will fire form to your chambers and reduce the typical blow back that 45 Colt produces. Since you won't have any air space in the brass then you have no worries about boolits "setting back" on you and a medium roll crimp will keep the projectiles where you want 'em. For my purposes I size all 45 Colt boolits (Black Powder & smokeless) to .454 to cut down on blow back.

[Stopsign32v]

What's the deal with "boolits" over bullets? Curiosity is killing me...

[Foto Joe]

Bullets are "store bought" and usually plated or jacketed. Boolits are custom cast from lead alloys or pure lead. For the most part when you see the term boolit it refers to a hand cast projectile usually produced by the person shooting it. Loading and shooting cast boolits is more of an art form than a science, especially when it comes to super sonic rounds and smokeless powder.

By the way, I don't know how you've got your forum settings but I did send you a PM regarding your 45 Colt loads.

[Char-Gar]

What's the deal with "boolits" over bullets? Curiosity is killing me...

This started some years back because some folks thought it was cute and other claim it was to fool the anti-gun search robots looking to insert wires into the brains of gun owners or some such other paranoid stuff.

I have never used the cute term, because I think it is...well...kinda stupid. A bullet is a bullet, is a bullet, whether lead alloy, gliding metal, bought or produced in my garage.

[Stopsign32v]

My son called them boolits when he was 3. It was cute

[44man]

I fell for it hook line and sinker. A boolit is from the magic metal. When you say it, it means a cast but a bullet is the strange copper coated things. I hate putting a "jacketed bullet" in when used.
Yes, a boolit is still a bullet but we know the difference.
When here, if you say bullet, it will be assumed you have store bought copper clad things. The difference is you don't need to type more.

[Echale3]

I used to load a 40-70 Sharps Straight chambered Rolling Block for BPCR, and there are a number of differences when loading BP versus smokeless.

BP is loaded volumetrically, not generally by weight, and muzzle velocity is less sensitive to minor variations in powder weight. It's not unusual to have a single digit standard deviation for velocity spread using BP.

Also, lubes for BP are different that smokeless--BP leaves residue which the lube will help soften somewhat. Smokeless lubes will harden the fouling like crazy. I'd recommend something like SPG as an excellent lube for BP. If you size/lube your cast bullets for smokeless shooting, you'll probably want to purchase a second lubrisizer just for the BP stuff, as it's a PITA to change out lubes. When I was loading both, I had one lubrisizer for BP lube, the other for smokeless lube.

A drop tube will allow you to put more BP in a case than you thought it would hold--when I was doing it, if I just dumped the normal charge in, it would overflow the case, but since I used a 2' tall drop tube, the charge would settle in and I'd have just a little compression when the bullet was seated.

In BP, a little powder compression is a good thing, just don't overdo it. If you compress, you will definitely want to make a decent crimp in the groove, and I'd strongly suggest a card wad. It's more or less impossible to overload a BP cartridge--you can't cram enough FFg or FFFg in a case and get a bullet to stay in the case to go over pressure.


Regarding a card wad, it's also called an over-powder wad--it's just a case ID-sized card between the bullet base and the powder used to protect/cushion the bullet base. Some people use thin cardboard wads like what you'd use in loading a shotgun shell (similar in thickness to an over-shot card), some use thin wads cut from sheets of polypropylene. Both work fine.

Typically, BP slugs are plain-based, not gas-checked.

Speaking of lead alloys, I had great luck with air-cooled WW, and my shooting buddy (40-65 out of a Browning High Wall) generally ran a 20:1 lead:tin alloy which worked great for him. Pure lead will generally work fine, too.

Regular old primers like you'd use for normal smokeless loads are fine for BP.

Virtually everything else about loading BP is just like smokeless reloading.

Case cleanup, though, is a bit different. Dump your fired cases into a milk jug with soapy water in it, shake it up, let it sit a bit to get all the BP fouling out, then rinse them. Dry them, then run through your loading process as normal.

[Stopsign32v]

I see you can buy lead ingots online. Is this a silly way to go about it? I'd like to cast my own but my job will not allow me the time to run around town chasing metal. That's simply out of the question.

[country gent]

I buy alloy (20-1) from buffalo arms, roto metals or a couple others instead of chasing materials around town. I am disabled with mobility issues and loading the base metals is a bg chore for me. Then melting cleaning and blending the bases and pouring ingots then casting bullets makes for alot more physical work for me. I order 100-150lbs usps delivers it and I can cast bullets from the get go. One thing to watch is alot of the foundry ingots may need to be cut down some to fit in an electric pot. My pot I can stack them in as needed and go, but my casting pot holds 100+ lbs and is bigger than most. I do ladle cast also. Watch metal prices and the web sites as prices fluctuate quite a bit at times.

[bedbugbilly]

I load BP for 38 Colt Short, Long and 38 Special and am set up for 45 Colt as well. Several things . . .

First . . as suggested already . . learn all you can about "how" to load BP cartridges . . loads need to be compressed, BP lube needs to be used to keep fouling soft, casings need to be cleaned up as quick as you get home from the range - everybody has their own "tricks".

I'm surprised that no one (unless I missed it which is possible) has not directed you to the Black Powder Cartridge forum on this site. There is lots of good information there . . . .

I shoot BP cartridges out of a number of handguns and I cast all of my projectiles (see I didn't call the boolits or bullets LOL). I use soft lead . . same stuff I use out of my BP C & B revolvers and what I've been doing for 50+ years.

As already mentioned . . . good cowboy loads can also be achieved with smokeless so don't overlook that as well. And . . since it's 45 Colt (aka 45 Colt Long) . . . don't forget you can also use 45 Schofield brass - a shorter version of the Colt Long and historically correct as well. Not a problem with BP but just remember that with smokeless, the 45 Schofield casing will have less case volume than the "Long" so weaker loads need to be used. Check and double check load data and as with all reloading, start at minimum and work up . . and never exceed maximum.

Re-loading either smokeless or BP can be very rewarding but make sure you do you homework and studying and understand the "hows" and "whys" of the process . . .and when in doubt, ask questions. The only "dumb" question is the one that doesn't get asked. :-) Smokeless and BP equals similar processes as far as basic assembling of the cartridges but the processes are two different animals. BP must be compressed.

Casting your own? It's not that hard and you don't HAVE to have expensive sophisticated equipment. I scourge for lead - salvage yards, plumbers, etc. but the last few years, I just buy it from members here - saves a lot of running around. I cast with a small 10 lb. Lyman pot, an old Lyman bottom pour dipper and a propane gas hotplate. Been doing it that way for 50+ years and they all shoot just fine. Lee molds are inexpensive and will work just fine - used Lyman, Ideal, RCBS, etc. can also be found on here FS or on such auction sites as flea bay.

BP lube - you can buy it or make it There are a number of formulas out there. I've always used a pound of Crisco melted together with a beeswax "toilet bowl ring" (real beeswax) - I just finger lube the lube grooves of the lead boolit before I seat it. If time is an issue . . SPG lube works very well too and you can purchase that.

Good luck to you and just do your homework and learn the processes. If you have questions . . ask. Everyone is a "beginner" at one time and I don't think there is any one who has reloaded for any length of time that didn't need and get help along the way . . . that's what it's all about . . sharing information and helping.

And check the BP Cartridge forum out on here . . . . it will provide you with a lot of good information.

Enjoy!

[Stopsign32v]

Absolutely awesome! So I can go with this http://www.buffaloarms.com/bullet_casting_lead_it-1037174.aspx?CAT=3897 put it in this http://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Pound-Electric-Melter/dp/B001MYESWE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1440802357&sr=8-2&keywords=bullet+casting then into this http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cavity-452664-Grains-Pistol/dp/B005I0KB3S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1440802454&sr=8-1&keywords=45+colt+mold

And be good to go? (please keep in mind I'm not talking literally to the part numbers, just in general.)

[John Boy]

Bullets: http://montanabulletworks.com/45_Colt.html
* RCBS (82049), 250gr ... asked that they be lubed with SPG for BP reloads
* Dies: Lee Precision ... http://leeprecision.com/3-die-set-45colt-carbide.html
* Press: Lee Precision ... http://leeprecision.com/4-hole-turret-press-with-auto-index.html
* Priming: http://leeprecision.com/priming-tools/hand-priming-tool/
* Shell Holders: http://leeprecision.com/shell-holder-11.html
* Powder: http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm ... order 5# or more of KIK ffg
- Lube case outside with Bag Balm & Full size ... http://www.cvs.com/search/N-0?searchTerm=bag+balm
- Insert primers
- Expand case mouth before seating bullet - just enough so 1/2 of the base band sits in the case
- Charge case with Lee Dipper in Die Set - 35gr FFg. No wads or drop tube, just compress with bullet
- Seat bullet to required overall cartridge length, recommend 1.595"
- Hard crimp the case with the crimper die
Shotgun reloading ... http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html
Done!
(http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html)

[Echale3]

To the OP, as you can see, there's more than one way to skin this particular cat. I'd say by now you have ample advice on how to proceed...

[will52100]

Pretty much spot on, except I'd suggest this for a mould http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=5f0e63f2-27c8-40c9-bfa1-b2e167b680e5 And then read the section here on "Leementing" Though the new big lubes moulds are quite nice. I use the PRS 250 grainer in my Uberti Henry, and several SAA's. I've pan lubed them for years before I got a sizer. Lee makes push through sizing dies if you need to size them down, most times they'll load and shoot fine as cast. Not a big fan of iron moulds, they take some getting used to and seasoning. Aluminum moulds are a little more delicate, but are great for high volume casting and cool quickly.

I'm not a big fan of Goex powder, though I am playing with Goex's Olde Ennsford and it shows promise. Each powder will like different amounts of compression. Swiss is my favorite, but it's expensive and I use it almost exclusively for rifle loading. Swiss doesn't like heavy compression. Graf's black powder is a good compromise between Goex and Swiss. If all you can get is Goex, by all means use it, the fouling will just be a bit harder.

I started out using cork wads, but don't use them anymore unless loading for my High Wall BPCR for long range shooting.

I also started out with the same Lee melting pot you linked, it's not perfect but it worked for me for several years, and was still working fine when I upgraded to a RCBS and PID controller. As for metal, you can order from Buffalo arms, I've done it before. After 15 years of casting and scrounging lead I came across a sale on lead from Rotometals and bought a 1000 pound pallet of pure lead. Have to cut the ingots into chunks to fit my pot, but I'm done running around the scrap yards trying to get enough soft lead. I buy tin from Rotometals as well. I don't mess with wheel weights anymore unless I can get them for free, too much zink and junk in them now, and the alloys are harder than they used to be. Scrap yards can yield good lead if you can find it, and I still visit them from time to time, just a bit more picky now. 20-1 alloy is just about perfect for the 45, in either smokeless or black powder. For my 45 ACP I add a couple pounds of wheel weights to make a bit harder. A hardness testing is a very nice tool to have when making alloys, but not absolutely necessary.

I started out loading black powder 45-70 in a lyman hand loader, then a single stage Lee. I currently load black powder in 38 long colt, 44 colt, 45 colt, 45-75 WCF, 45-70, and shot shells. Not to mention round balls for various front stuffers and cap and ball revolvers.

[will52100]

Forgot to ask, where are you located? A few minutes with someone showing you how they load blackpowder would be very educational.

[Blackwater]

Much good advice given here, and welcome SS to the wonderful world of rolling your own bullets and ammo. I think we all understand about the job/time thing. We've pretty well all been there and done that. The best part is that once you get set up, and everything organized, you'll find it really doesn't take nearly as much time to load ammo once you get used to it and learn the processes, and reasons for them. It'll become old hat very quickly, really, and your efficiency and confidence - IF you read the manuals and learn what to do and why it's that way - will increase rapidly.

The only things I can really add are that it'd behoove you, if you're loading BP, to pay particular attention to the advice about using a black powder lube when shooting black powder. This really DOES make a HUGE difference. Generally, BP lubes have no petroleum distillates in them. If the bullets you have were bought, they're not likely to have a BP compatible lube on them, so you may not be able to use them. What happens when you use a regular smokeless lube with BP is that the fouling of the BP and the conventional, petroleum based lubes, combine chemically to form something akin to heavy and hard to remove tar in your barrel that will destroy any accuracy you can get, and be VERY aggrevating to get cleaned out. I learned this the hard way, and it was a lesson I'll never forget, so you're lucky if you can avoid that.

The advice about using a bullet that's designed for black powder is good, too. You see, black requires a bullet to not only seal the bore effectively and "lube" the bullet's pathway through the barrel, but it ALSO has to "wet" the fouling to keep it from getting hard and gritty, and keep the fouling soft and slightly luby. Use a good BP compatible lube, and the fouling you get out of your bore on your patches will actually feel kind'a "soapy," which is really just about what it is. This is why bullets designed for BP have somewhat larger, deeper grooves, normally. It's for the extra lube to be able to keep the fouling wet and soft. I've used Emmert's lube with lanolin in my BP shooting, and have never wanted better. It actually worked better than the commercial stuff in my guns, and the recipe can be found in the lubes section or BP sections of the forum. It's very easy to make, and your wife won't complain because it actually makes the house smell darned good! Kind'a hard NOT to make use of that little tidbit, and personalizes your ammo even more.

The last thing is that little thing about keeping your cases in soapy water. This is important because BP fouling can attack brass cases, and weaken them, shortening your case life, which these days is a significant expense. This is a case where nickeled brass may pay off in the long run. It'll be a little more stain resistant. Sometimes, lying in BP fouling that tends to collect at the bottom of your water jug you put your cases into at the range will turn brass black. It doesn't hurt them, but if you like nicer looking loads, you may want to consider nickeled brass. The inside is still brass, so you still have to clean them out good.

As to cleaners, I've found that nothing really beats Murphy's Oil Soap in the spray bottles from the grocery store. The stuff in the spray bottles is the already diluted solution, while the bottles with the cap is usually th efull strength stuff. Just mix if you're using the longer lasting capped bottle according to directions, and find a small plastic bottle to keep it in your range kit for cleaning, and clean ASAP after your range session - in NO CASE let it go more than 12 hours before cleaning. Even plain tap water works well. The salts from real black are very simple and very quickly and easily soluable in plain water. The soap just helps lift the solid particles off better and more quickly, and Murphy's Oil Soap is "best" only because it uses vegetable oil rather than animal fats in its manufacture, so its more neutral ph is a bit less likely to cause rusting when used long term.

A quick wipe with Murphy's at the range, and a good bath when you get home in warm to hot soapy water, and you're done. Leave the gun in the hot water for long enough for the steel to get to temp, and you take it out, rinse it off, and the residual heat evaporates most all the water, leaving only good, clean steel. I like to use WD-40 on the gun because the WD stands for "water displacing" and will help eliminate or stabilize and replace any tiny spots where water might want to accumulate. After a WD-40 spray and a good wipe down to get any excess off, you're pretty well good to go, and those Colts are kind'a valuable today, and merit the best care you can give them.

Lest any try to scare you off from real black, take a look at some of the old original guns in the Smithsonian. They were probably shot many thousands of times with black, and are in miraculously pristine condition today, including the bores. They got that way and stayed that way because the people who had and used them knew how to care for a gun when shot with black, and it's really very, very simple. YOu just can't NOT do the maintenance, but it's so easy, and really doesn't take all that much time, that there's really no reason NOT to enjoy the great performance and benefits BP can offer. You really CAN even come to like the smell of sulphur burning! Good to see the sport growing with folks like you who know to ask all the right questions. Welcome!

[DougGuy]

What gun(s) are these loads for?

[w30wcf]

Stopsign32V,
The pards have given great advice. Buffalo Arms offers the original .45 Colt B.P. bullet (Ideal 454190)
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157319&CAT=4135
They are a bit expensive though at almost .50 ea.
(Ideal is now Lyman)

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html offers the PRS 250 which is much less expensive.

w30wcf

[Stopsign32v]

What gun(s) are these loads for?

Right now they are for a Uberti 1860 45 colt conversion but I plan to get quite a few more. I would like to eventually get the real thing but I'm still in the learning phase. I'm coming from WWII firearms and know nothing about 19th century.

[Stopsign32v]

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html offers the PRS 250 which is much less expensive.

w30wcf

I was thinking about going with these until I can cast my own later.

[will52100]

I wouldn't load full house loads in the 1860RM, even full house black powder loads. I'd be worried about the gun shooting loose over time. Maybe a 200 grain bullet with filler if using 45 colt brass. Personally I'd drop the powder charge to 30 grains and use a filler, something I never thought I'd do. Not sure if you can load Schoffield brass in it or not, but if you can it'd be a better choice. The original 1860 conversions were heel based 44's. I've got one in 44 colt and it's a dream to shoot.

[Stopsign32v]

I wouldn't load full house loads in the 1860RM, even full house black powder loads. I'd be worried about the gun shooting loose over time. Maybe a 200 grain bullet with filler if using 45 colt brass. Personally I'd drop the powder charge to 30 grains and use a filler, something I never thought I'd do. Not sure if you can load Schoffield brass in it or not, but if you can it'd be a better choice. The original 1860 conversions were heel based 44's. I've got one in 44 colt and it's a dream to shoot.

Why would you think a new production 1860RM wouldn't be able to handle full loads?

What would a load recipe be for a close to original 45 colt load in 1870s-1880s?

[Stopsign32v]

Just found in a search the original load was 40 grains of BP behind a 250gr slug. I also read they backed it up to 30 grains after several failures?

[Cowboy_Dan]

Just found in a search the original load was 40 grains of BP behind a 250gr slug. I also read they backed it up to 30 grains after several failures?

The original load was indeed 40 gr BP, but you'll never fit that in modern solid head brass. I think, but can't precisely remember, that the load was backed off to make guns easier to shoot, especially in cavalry units. Remember, everyone shot pistols one handed back then and even the lighter load is pretty stout.

[Stopsign32v]

Remember, everyone shot pistols one handed back then and even the lighter load is pretty stout.

Isn't that the only way to shoot a revolver of that era? ;)

[will52100]

Not saying the RM can't handle it, just saying I'd be worried about the gun getting loose over time, battering the wedge, arbor stretch. A full house 45 colt with 38 grains of 3F and a 250 grain bullet is a stout combination. The weakness of the open top design is that every time you fire it your trying to tear the barrel off the end of the arbor. Don't get me wrong, I've got a bunch of colt designs and love them. My load for mine is (without checking my load data) 28 grains of BP and a 200 grain big lube bullet in 44 colt. The Uberti RM is slightly larger than the original to chamber 45 colt, the original would sometimes break through the locking lug on the cylinder in 44 colt. Still doesn't mean it can digest a steady diet of heavy loads without shooting loose.

A SAA is a good bit stronger with a solid frame, but even they can shoot loose over time with heavy loads. My basic load for all my 45 colt stuff, and this includes a 1860 Henry, is 36 grains 2F Graf's BP and a big lube 250 grain bullet.

About as much as I can stuff in the case and still seat a 250 bullet so it'll function in my Henry is 38 grains 3F. That's also a good short range deer load out of the Henry. That comes close to the original loads, if you could get your hands on old ballon head brass you could replicate the 40 grain load with 2F swiss and less compression.

[StrawHat]

Why would you think a new production 1860RM wouldn't be able to handle full loads?

What would a load recipe be for a close to original 45 colt load in 1870s-1880s?


Just found in a search the original load was 40 grains of BP behind a 250gr slug. I also read they backed it up to 30 grains after several failures?

While the "original" load was 40 grains of black powder, the 1860 was never converted to use the 45 long Colt cartridge. There was not enough room in the cylinder. The original conversions and the Richard, Richards and Mason, and Open Tops were chambered for the 44 Colt cartridge, a 200 - 210 grain heeled bullet over 21 grains of black powder.

The 45 long Colt was introduced in 1873 at the request of the Army who was looking for a new revolver. They wanted an inside lubed bullet of at least 45 caliber. This caused Colts to redesign the 44 Colt and create the 45 long Colt.

The charge was reduced because S&W introduced a revolver that used a shorter cartridge, the 45 S&W and the shorter cartridge could be used in the Colt revolver.

It can very easily be argued that the 45 caliber cartridge that gave the 45 long Colt it''s reputation as a manstopper was indeed the 45 S&W.

Kevin

[Stopsign32v]

Ah that's right! I forgot about the original 1860s being a 44 colt design. However during my researches before purchasing I learned the modern 44 colt isn't what the originals were. I could be wrong but I believe I read the modern 45 colt bullet is a more accurate size over the modern 44 colt and that is why I went with it. Either way I'm looking for accurate historical loads so would I be better suited to shoot a lighter weight 45 colt boolit? Seems it would make sense...

[will52100]

Your part rite. My first 60 RM I had to send back, it had a 44 colt cylinder and a 45 barrel. That would have been an accurate representation of the originals. The 44 colt used a heel based bullet that was aprox. .450 diameter, with a smaller heel crimped into the 44 case. Basically it was made the way a 22LR is today. The same is true with the 51 navy conversions. The modern reproductions use inside lubed bullets and that makes loading a lot faster and easier, not to mention easier to keep ammo clean.

[starmac]

You are starting with a lot more info available than many of us had. and about as easy as a caliber as they come.
I started waaaaaay before the internet as a teenager with knowing anyone that reloaded. A 10 dollar lee reloader, a bow of bullets, a pound of powder, some primers , and what I would call a pamphlet for a manual, coupled with the desire to shoot more than I could afford.
It is not rocket science, just use your head, be safe and have fun, eventually it will cost you a small fortune. lol

[Stopsign32v]

What would be a 45 colt load to imitate an original 44 colt? If that makes any sense at all.

[tja6435]

The current Hornady reloading manual has quite a section in the beginning of the book that'll explain the ins and outs of reloading. How it works, how to do it, etc.

[will52100]

If you can get Cowboy special brass it works good for reduced black powder loads, but I don't think it's being made anymore? It's basically shortened 45 colt brass to ACP length. If you shorten normal 45 colt brass it gets pretty thick, the cowboy special is thin at the mouth.

Simplest way is to load a 200 grain bullet on a 30 grain charge with some filler like corn meal on top to take up space. Or use schofield brass if the rims aren't too big for the 60 RM cylinder. The cowboy special brass or schofield brass would save having to use a filler and save a reloading step.

[doc1876]

someone stated that there were no bp books, this is just one
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Gun_Books_Buffalo_Arms_Company_Library_it-158690.aspx?CAT=4146

I have not read this specific one, however, I have digested everything else that I can, and I can tell you, it ain't that hard to be successful at it.


.45 LC
200gRNFP

20g FFFg black



the big issue is cleaning your cases immediately after shooting. there are many tricks for this, including dumping them into a jug with dish soap while still at the range.
Welcome to the dark side!!

[Stopsign32v]

I will probably just take a jug of water and soap and throw them in at the range until I get home. I read Murphy's oil is good?

Thanks for the link to the book, I will most definitely grab it and others.

[Stopsign32v]

Forgot to ask, where are you located? A few minutes with someone showing you how they load blackpowder would be very educational.

Sorry I didn't see this until reading back trough the thread. You guys thankfully loaded me down to so much info so fast that I couldn't keep up because of work. I'm in the upper part of South Carolina.

[will52100]

No worries, it can all be a little overwhelming at first. I learned to reload on a Lyman 610? I think it was, then went from there.

As far the brass, no need to drop in water at the range, just don't forget about it for a couple of days. Ask me how I know that's a bad idea! Normally I hand deprime at home watching TV and drop into a bucket of water. Sometimes I add a little Dawn, other times not. I've let brass sit covered with water for over a month with no issues before cleaning. Since I wet tumble with stainless steel media I like having the primers punched out and the SS media cleans the primer pockets as well and makes drying easier after cleaning. Here's the hand de capper I use. I don't think he's making them anymore, but anybody that's handy should be able to make one. http://s329.photobucket.com/user/decapper/media/hand.jpg.html

Forgot to add, having the primers out and clean primer pockets saves cleaning after sizing and makes my Load Master run smooth and clean with out gunk falling down in the action. Not a big issue with a single stage, but does mean you don't have to clean primer pockets by hand. Also means the cases dry better and you don't risk having water trapped in the pocket when you go to load.

[will52100]

Also check out http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php They've got sections on reloading, black powder and on open top colts. Some good info there.

[Stopsign32v]

Keeping in mind I've never reloaded, I do have my single stage press mounted and ready, just need to dies. Anyways it came with a primer loading add on. It looks like you send the casing up to be deprimed, the spent primer falls down the tube, then on the way down the primer seater I guess we will call it, swings over and primes the deprimed casing. Sounds cool but how would the primer pocket ever get cleaned?

[Springfield]

Primer pockets usually don't need much cleaning. I get at least 8 loadings without any problem. Usually the cases are so dinged up by then you don't want to reload them anyway, especially with 44-40 cases like I mostly do. At least once a year I need to load BP for my wife in 45 Colt as we go to the California Black Powder Shoot-out. I like to keep her bullets down to 200 grains to eliminate some recoil in her pistols, rifles don't matter that much, plus the heavier bullets in the rifle seem to keep the blow-by down a bit.
As a new BP shooter, one of the most important things for you to remember is to use a BP compatible lube. In pistols you don't have to use a bullet with a larger than usual lube groove as the barrels are pretty short and most bullet will carry enough lube to get the job done, at least for 30 or so rounds, maybe more. But the usual crayon type lube on most commercial bullets will turn to a hard substance that will ruin your accuracy in short order.
As far as fffg or ffg, both will work fine. The fffg will usually burn more completely, giving a bit more recoil but will keep the gun cleaner. I prefer ffg as I like the extra smoke and flames. Just make sure you use enough powder to eliminate the air space. Personally, I think it might be a myth when it comes to BP cartridge ammo, but I like full cases anyway.
If you use a very soft bullet, the diameter doesn't seem to matter too much as long as it will chamber, and most 45 Colts seem to have generous chambers. 20-1 is OK, 40-1 works fine if not better for me, but might be a bit more difficult to cast with.
Cleaning the guns is actually very easy. I just remove the cylinders on mine and clean just like a smokeless gun, except I use a water/Murphys oil soap mixture instead of Hoppes or some other smokeless solvent. Then I like to oil everything with Breakfree. There are probably better rust preventative oils out there but I shoot my BP guns at least every month so they don't really get a chance to rust, and never have. I have, on more than one occasion, shot my guns and then put them away for a couple of weeks, and then shot another match, with no ill effects. So I trust my cleaning method.

[Stopsign32v]

Thanks, I like the idea of using ffg as I could use it then for both revolvers and my 10 gauge.

[Green Frog]

I will probably just take a jug of water and soap and throw them in at the range until I get home. I read Murphy's oil is good?

Thanks for the link to the book, I will most definitely grab it and others.

A good squirt of Dawn™ (I like the blue kind) in water is what I use most often. I shoot brass cases in 50 caliber Maynard (the percussion kind.) I guess other soaps work as well, but this is my go-to.

Froggie

[will52100]

I disagree on the primer pockets not needing much cleaning. With smokeless, yes you can get by for a long time without cleaning. With black powder, fouling builds up quick in them. But even more importantly is since your using water to flush the corrosive residue out of the cases the spent primmer can trap moister even after the rest of the case is dry. Not a big deal to let dry a little longer, but I like having the primer out and cleaning the pocket at the same time as the case.

You've got a good point on putting the guns up without cleaning. I don't know about the subs, from what I understand they need to be cleaned ASAP because they will corrode by chemical action. Black powder is hydroscopic and will absorb moister and that will react with the salts and sulfur in the fouling. No moister present, no corrosion. I actually had a early pietta 1860 that I shot and a spring broke. I put it up because at the time there was no internet or easily available parts. It sat uncleaned in the house for roughly 15 years.(I was disgusted with it and a teenager). I got interested in black powder again and decided to see if it was salvageable. I was expecting the cylinder and barrel to be like a sewer pipe, but it cleaned up with no more than a spot or two of faint corrosion. Now I don't go more than a day or two without cleaning.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Lots of good advice here. The .45 Colt black powder cartridge was very powerful and I would not shoot it with much in an open top conversion. A .45 Colt in an open top conversion is not authentic to the frontier. The .44 conversions were chambered in the .44 Colt which is a 200 gr. boolit at 830 to 860 fps. The conversions were made from cap and ball guns which were designed to shoot mostly round ball .454" lead with 30 gr of black powder at about 800 fps which generated much less stress on the design. I shoot the Colt Army 1860's with round ball and 25-30 gr. of FFFg Goex and they shoot great.

For your open top conversion I'd get Starline Schofield brass which I have and it works great for me. Lube your boolits with SPG and try to get a 200 gr boolit, preferably a RN just to keep it authentic. If your not casting your own yet, get a sizer luber and order your boolits without lube. Fill the case with FFFg or FFg and you should be fine. I don't fool with wads in revolvers but use wads in my .45-70 Sharps which only sees black powder.

After shooting black powder I run hot water through the action and then douse the guns with Hoppe's black powder solvent. It's really simple and a great way to shoot black powder.

With the .45 Colt cartridge in black powder, I recommend you use the solid frame or the "strapped model" as they called it on the frontier. I have over a half dozen Colt's SAA's and shoot them a lot and have been shooting them for over 30 years. Be prepared to not enjoy shooting the full .45 Colt cartridge with black powder in the shorter barrel gun a lot. Colt's sold more SAA's in the 10 years after the turn of the century than they did in the 20 years before the turn of the century. The big difference is the choice of preference between the long 7 1/2" barrels which dominated the pre turn of the century black powder guns and the switch in preference to the short barreled guns which dominated the market choice after the turn of the century with the entry of smokeless powder. Don't get me wrong, the short barrel strapped solid frame can handle the full load .45 Colt black powder all day, all I'm saying is that it's not pleasant. Your Schofield load which is a 230 gr. boolit at about 850 fps with black powder is very pleasant in the short 4 3/4" - 5 1/2" barrels. For the full .45 Colt black powder shooting, I use my 7 1/2" and it's very rewarding. Trying to have a range session with a short barreled .45 Colt filled with black powder in the longer .45 Colt brass is not a desirable day. Just as asking your open top, with a frame size originally intended for .36 caliber and with a thin walled .45 Colt cylinder to handle full loads is a tall order. The 1860 frame and cylinder came from the Navy which was originally designed as a .36 calibre. Colt's rebated the front side of the cylinder to accept .44 caliber balls as a muzzle loader. Your modern gun has much stronger steel but I would not shoot full loads through it much.