help w/reloading some old lever guns...32-40 & 45-60

[rpludwig]

Not new to reloading, but new to reloading old calibers for recently acquired old lever guns (and a trapdoor):

1876 Win 45-60 dtd 1882
1894 Win 32-40 dtd 1898
1894 Win 30 WCF dtd 1947

All in good to VG condition, good bores, tight actions...

So, multiple questions...

Brass sources for 45-60 & 32-40?
Bullet recommendations for same, cast or J-words? (I do not cast my own)
Powder/load recommendations for both (smokeless)?
I assume 30WCF = 30-30?

Regarding the trapdoor, it is a low ser #445X, best I can determine it dates 1874 and assume it is 45-70 although not marked as such.

I have dies on hand for 30-30 and 45-70 so will gear up for the others...dies and such seem to be no problem, brass and load data scarce for 45-60 & 32-40 from my initial research.

Sorry for the host of questions, and thx in advance for all your expert advice/comments/cautions regarding these historic pieces!

Ron

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Have to head to a village right quick... But absolutely have the throat area diameter. Do it twice. With that diameter we can get you shooting the right diameter boolits from the start . Not 300 rounds later of utter frustration. Groove at the muzzle means little . Throat diameter is always the largest.
Mike in Peru

[yooper]

Cases for the 45-60 are simple - shorten your 45-70 brass from 2.10" to 1.89" and you've got 45-60 brass. 32-40 can be formed from 38-55, 30-30 or 32 Special cases. Lots of info on the 'Net about annealing and forming these, or there are several books - one by Donnelly - that are quite good on forming cases. Here's what Chuck Hawks had to say about the 32-40:
"The .32-40 Winchester is an old black powder cartridge that survived the introduction of smokeless powder. In its day it was considered an adequate deer cartridge, but it was superseded by the .32 Winchester Special.

At one time Winchester loaded standard and high velocity loads for the .32-40, both with 165 grain bullets. The latter featured a MV of 1752 fps and ME of 1125 ft. lbs. The major manufacturers no longer offer factory loaded .32-40 ammunition.
.32-40 cases can be formed from .38-55, .30-30 or .32 Special brass. According to the 26th Edition of the Hodgdon Data Manual a 170 grain .32 Special bullet can be driven to a MV of 1409 fps by 16.0 grains of H4895 powder.
The maximum load is 22.0 grains of H4895, for a MV of 1864 fps and ME of 1311 ft. lbs. At 150 yards the figures would be 1525 fps and 878 ft. lbs. Using the Speer 170 grain bullet, the trajectory of that load would look like this from a rifle with iron sights: +2.5" at 50 yards, +2.9" at 100 yards, 0 at 150 yards, -6.6" at 200 yards, -17.5" at 250 yards. The .32-40 is about a 150 yard deer cartridge with such a load."


Good luck and have fun with your old timers.
yooper

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Excellent advice and information from Yooper. The 32-40 was/is an excellent cartridge capable of delivering good accuracy. It was used as a target cartridge for many years and in the opinion of many will outshoot the 32 Special in the hands of a good rifleman. Adequate for medium sized game 32-40 was available in the 94 and the high wall rifles. LLS

[OverMax]

Cast Pix show allot of re-loading date for the 32-40. And is the site where I download my 32-40s recipes from.

[EOD3]

I used to do bomb disposal, and I still have all my fingers so you can call me cautious :2 drunk buddies: or reckless depending on your point of view.

I would give them a good going over or have a qualified gunsmith do it for you. IMHO, I'd never fire anything but soft-ish lead in the 45-60 and the 32-40. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the 30 WCF is the only one designed for smokeless powder or jacketed bullets of any kind. If it was my rifle, I'd shoot light loads and lead bullets in the WCF too.

[northmn]

Production of the 30WCF was delayed in the 94 until they had smokeless steel barrels available hence it was made in calibers like the 32-40. A 1947 30WCF (30-30) will shoot factory loads. The 32-40 is probably best formed from 38-55 brass as it is longer than a 30-30 or 32 Special.
For many years the 32-40 held accuracy records for Schuetzen matches. 200 yard groups under an inch. It was a spin-off from the 38-55 and was liked because of the lessened recoil. In a lever I doubt if it is any more accurate than the 32 Special.
The 45-60 was developed in the 76 Winchester because the action could not take the length of the 45-70. Data as used for the Trapdoor Springfield 45-70 might work. As the case is a bit shorter you would want to look at starting loads. Older guns are best used with cast boolits, if nothing more to preserve them. I shot a few old WW2 military rifles and used cast for that reason as well as the fact that the bores tended to vary a bit.

DP

[yooper]

I pulled my Donnelly book and it's technically "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" by John J. Donnelly. Mine was published in 1987 by Stoeger. They are available on that despised auction site that will go unnamed. They're a "must have" for lots of reloading information. As northmn mentioned, 38-55 brass is likely the best for converting to 32-40. Donnelly uses 375 Winchester, but that's got to be as hard to find as 32-40. Maybe in 1987 it was easier to find. Another good book on the subject is Maj. George Nonte's book "The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions". I haven't found it as complete as Donnelly but it's worth having if you can find it. It's even older with a 1967 printing date. I'm old, so these books were all available when I was at the peak of my loading and will likely be a harder find for you. Stick around awhile and my widow will likely be offering mine for sale. :shock: And, as everybody has said, these are older weapons as you know, so load them with mild loads and they'll last your lifetime and your heirs lifetimes.
yooper

[rpludwig]

Excellent advice from all you guys, thx much!

I am really interested in working with these old gals and obsolete cartridges. From what I gather, Winchester makes seasonal runs of 32-40 brass which I will keep a lookout for, worst case will form some from 38-55 as recommended. I did download the 32-40 data from the castpics site from the Lyman #44 manual. Also found this excellent thread http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21235 on the 45-60, but still looking for published load data.

Since I do not cast, I see that Oregon Trail has a cast boolit 170gr .322 for the 32-40, so I may go in that direction. Any further info, recommendations are most welcomed.

Once again, this has proven to be the best reloading site out there!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Forgot all about this thread... Nearing 65 and living at 8000plusis taking it's toll.
I shoot a 45-60 original 1876. I highly recommend you have some one who understands the toggle lock up check your rifle. This is not a highly technical issue as all needs done is remove the side plates and check the toggles and pins for soundness and bolt lock up. This is important. If fractures and problems exist that bolt may exit the rifle and to the rear is the easiest path of exit.
Brass has well been explained. I use cut down 45-70 brass. I also anneal the necks so they easily expand to chamber diameter.
Your rifle is different than mine and all others. Throat diameter, roughness along with the chamber are not all equal. You must find out about these diameters and use that info. Cut a piece of brass to length and begin to expand (bell) the case mouth in very slow steps. This will helps identify how fat the chamber is. When the case mouth is belled enough to offer slight resistance to chambering measure very carefully with a micrometer. This will indicate closely what is the fattest soft boolit you can chamber. Do not be surprised if the chamber will accept a .462 or fatter boolit. We also need to know the throat diameter.
I highly recommend your first loads be with real Black Powder. That is a BP rifle not designed for smokeless. Use 2F. Our purpose is to establish the max pressure and velocity for your rifle .. not mine. Use a 300 grain 40-1 mix cast boolit of the proper diameter. Your boolit should be .002-.003 less than chamber diameter. Lubed with BP lube. 45-55 % olive oil and bees wax works well for these simple tests.
Place the boolit along side the case and mark the case where the boolit base stops. Fill the case to that line. Tap the case rim on the table several times gently to settle the powder. Add powder again till powder level is about 1/8 inch above your line. Tap case again. add as needed. Plop the boolit in and seat. You need at least 5 of these.
These loads will establish max pressure / velocity you should NEVER exceed with this rifle. Yes you can but you can also ruin a nice old rifle very fast. I did this proceedure with my origonal 1876 45-60 and my 1876 replicas. After many shoots they are just as tight as they were when I received them into my care. If you have any specific questions fire away...
Mike in Peru

[rpludwig]

Mike, thx for taking the time for that detailed explanation!

I'm all in with getting the toggle linkage/pins etc. checked out for safe operation, good advice.

Also going to do a chamber cast to measure the critical throat dimension as you recommend as well as your method for chamber dimension measurement.

I see that Buffalo Arms has 45-60 brass available, so no need to trim 45-70's or be concerned with thicker rim dimensions.

This will be a fun gun for occasional plinking & target shooting, not a go to hunting rifle.

However I don't shoot BP, thus once the above is done properly, I'll be looking for some safe smokeless load recommendations, if you or others may have.

Best,
Ron

[Dan Cash]

....However I don't shoot BP, thus once the above is done properly, I'll be looking for some safe smokeless load recommendations, if you or others may have.

Best,
Ron

Many will disagree with me but in the case of your 76 and smokeless loads, there aren't any safe ones in my opinion. Black powder is easy to work with and clean up after and won't break your rifle; smokeless will.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Ron
Good to read you are progressing with the 1876. They are a fun rifle. Sitting behind cross sticks wacking on a steel gong at 200 yards will awaken any sleepy shooting line. That big ol" soft cast 300 grain will really "Thwanggggg" a swinging gong. Everyone will want to see that fine old rifle and hold it awhile.
I have not shot smokeless in my 1876. Probably never will. If for any reason those toggles, pins or bolt gets stressed parts are very expensive. If you really want to shoot smokeless I recommend buying a used repro 1876.
I bought two years back when CDNN Sports was liquidating several models. I bought a 1876 RC Monte model in 45-60. Also got a1876 in 50-95. Those I will use low pressure smokeless loads in. But I also first loaded 3F and fired over a chrono to get my maxloads and never go past those. It may be new steel. It may be a new rifle. But I want to be able to pass on to my grandsons safe rifles with loading info that will last all their lives. That original 1876 is a major investment.. least mine was for me. It can never be replaced... only repaired maybe. Stretch that frame and now you are into custom made toggle parts to get headspace right. I have seen these rifles for sale. Loose bolts that will not be snug even with brass inserted in the chamber. Levers hanging down out of position with the bolt closed. Just writing this to say... BP is not hard to come by and will not hurt a safe rifle. But smokeless will. Every load I see listed from reliable sources for the 45-60 all state "not for original 1876 rifles"... So do a search... "45-60 loading Information". Lots of smokeless loads available. I would consider all those overmax for an original.
So do keep us posted. Do plan on using it for hunting. I garentee that 300 grain soft cast bullet at 1250 fps will perminently put the thump on any critter it "thwaps". I do not carry mine for long hauls. They get heavy. But for sitting on a bluff overlooking a river bottom area it is just dandy. Call some coyotes. Pop a few ground hogs or raccoons... you will not regret the effort or time. May just wear out your smiler !
Mike in Peru

[rpludwig]

thx Dan & Mike!!

In a mere two replies you guys have convinced me to dive into the world of BP shooting....this is one nice rifle which I don't want to put at risk (and a few others waiting in the wings)...now, on to the BP learning curve!!!

Ron

[missionary5155]

Greetings Ron
You will not regret the decision. Every time I fire one of my 76's whether the two repros or the real one the history clock kicks in and the river bottoms or range are no longer 2014 (my last time north) but back about 1880. The noise, smoke and accuracy are all the same some old timer would have experienced and enjoyed. It would have been at least 6 years but probably nearer to 10 years before the 1886 made it to all the little areas. But even then many hunters saw no need to "upgun" as they already had plenty of power for any critter still moving about the area. It is just a marvelous time to replay the shooting experience of hunters from so long ago.
Mike in Peru

[FromTheWoods]

Ron--

If you would like to try the Oregon Trail .32-40 bullet you mentioned, I have enough to send a batch to you for your tests. Send a PM with your address and I'll get them in the mail to you.

We have been shooting the Laser Cast's out of a rough-bored '94 Winchester. It needed a filler to shoot accurately. Youngest son used it for two mule deer bucks--quite dead deer. I don't have our load handy at this moment, but can send it along with the bullets if you'd prefer.

We are going to try gas-checked bullets in the old bore in an attempt to get away from the filler--just because no filler would be easier to load on our progressive press. If your bore is half-way decent, maybe the Laser Cast bullets will be dandy.

[rpludwig]

PM sent!