Mixing to average alloy question

[crashguy]

Question... I have a known quantity of alloy at 21brinell and near pure lead at a minimum of 5 brinell.... If I mix a 50 / 50 by weight will the resultant alloy be the average of the 2 ( appox 13brinell)? or is that just too simple?

[lobowolf761]

It should be close. I would do a small batch and test the hardness to see. I do a 50/50 mix of lino and WW and come close to #2.

[Mitch]

all depending on what is making your known alloy hard it should be a bit higher but not more than 2bnh.

[williamwaco]

No. Too simple.

I have a record that 20lb COWW + 20 lb Lino came out at 14.

I would try 1 pure to 2 lino and see what happens. (Since pure is much softer than COWW)

[RogerDat]

I don't think it works like that. Mix of 50/50 Lino & plain is hardball alloy 2/6/92 expected to have BHN of 16. This is not the "average" of the Linotype BHN of 19 and the plain lead BHN of 5 ( 24 BHN / 2 = 12)

Alloys and BHN are an apples to oranges compare. Both hardball at 2/6/92 with BHN of 16 and Lyman #2 at 5/5/90 with BHN of 15 are close on BHN but very different "mixes". That 1% greater antimony in hardball more than makes up for 3% less tin when it comes to BHN. The first is 50/50 plain and linotype, the second is more like 2 parts COWW to 1 part linotype with some solder thrown in.

2 parts COWW to 1 part Linotype is very close to hardball, would need about 2 oz. of pewter or 4 oz. of 40% Sn solder to have the hardball 2/6/92 alloy. Not sure that the small amount of tin would make a huge difference to the BHN or suitability for a cast boolit needing a particular hardness. The extra tin might (might as in idle speculation SWAG) make it a little less likely to fragment on impact with bone or metal.

[crashguy]

Just as I suspected...Not that simple .....So now I understand it as being more proportional and dependent on ingredients .... Unfortunately, I do not know the composition of the harder alloy to aid me in a specific mix... so, as advised I'll mix a small batch and test ... maybe I can narrow the SWAG down to an EGWR (Educated Guess with Reservations)..... This will be my first attempt at alloying to any degree ..I am comforted in the knowledge that regardless of the outcome ....I'm still gonna shoot it no matter what.
Thanks

Ed

[ioon44]

The approach I use is to melt my cww or pure lead and add lino or mono until I reach the bullet weight in a mold that has been tested with known 6-2-92 alloy. This hits around 14 to 16 BNH and works great in most all caliber's.

[LAGS]

Get that BHN21 X Rayed at a scrap yard, and then you know what you are working with.
You cant average different alloys just by the BHN and expect it to be linier.
But if BHN is all that you care about, you can play around with different ratios and come up with the BHN that you want.
Start with one pound of the BHN 21, and one pound of Lead, then test that two pounds.
If too soft, then add to the two pounds one more pound of the BHN21.
Now test that three pounds and see where you are at.
Since you are working with an Unknown Alloy for one of your components, I would NOT add Tin ,Pewter or Solder to the mix Until you get your Base Metal Ratio where you want it.
You asked about getting an Average ratio with what you had, then work with what you have first.
When you figure out what ratio you need to do for your two metals that you have in hand, then Smelt it All together at that ratio, then you can play with adding the Tin Pewder or Solder to a pound of that, and see where it takes you.

[williamwaco]

You don't need to know the EXACT composition..

Make a guess and test it. If it is too hard add some pure. And vice versa.

Keep up with the amount of each so next time you can get really close on the first try.

[Mitch]

here is something off the rotometals site.
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-

For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3.
For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9.
For a simple equation,
Brinell = 8.60 + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )

I find this to work well.I have never aked where the 8.6 number came from.i take it small amounts of sn and sb will make pure lead 8.6 bhn.

[bangerjim]

Get the FREE alloy calc spreadsheet on here. It will answer all your "what if" questions....now and in the future.

I use it all the time for very accurate Bhn mixes.

bangerjim

[Balta]

Question... I have a known quantity of alloy at 21brinell and near pure lead at a minimum of 5 brinell.... If I mix a 50 / 50 by weight will the resultant alloy be the average of the 2 ( appox 13brinell)? or is that just too simple?

60-40 mix will give you around 15 Bhn....

[Outpost75]

The current CBA Fouling Shot No.236 p.3 covers this nicely.

New linotype is 22 BHN, and pure lead is 5 BHN, so the hardness of any ratio of the two can be calculated by:

LinotypePounds(22)+LeadPounds(5) / TotalPounds = BHN

For example, a 50-50 of linotype and lead is (22)+(5)/2 = 13.5 BHN

A 1:2 linotype-lead blend is (22)+2(5) / 3 = 10.5 BHN

A 1:3 linotype-lead blend is (22) +3(5) / 4 = 9.25 BHN

A 1:4 linotype-lead blend is (22)+4(5) / 5 = 8.5 BHN

A 1:5 linotype-lead blend is (22)+5(5) / 6 = 8 BHN

I use 50-50 for "hard" bullet applications like .45 ACP and 1:5 for plainbased bullet Cowboy loads and black powder cartridge rifles, such as the .44-40.

[LAGS]

This is all fine and good thinking that his BHN 21 lead is Linotype.
But what if he has lead that is alloyed with something other than the ratio of linotype.
Then your formula for adding Pure is all screwed up.
And until you know the composition of the BHN21 stuff , you are just mixing and matching in the dark. And the Ballistic calculator is worthless.
What is the BHN 21 stuff is Foundrytype starting at BHN30, and it was cut with COWW and some range scrap.
You tell me what ratio that would be, but it could still be a BHN21, but Not Linotype.
I can find about 3 or 4 ratios for a BHN 10, and they are totally different compositions, and will perform different in either Mold Fill Out, or Heat treatment, or Expansion.

[Outpost75]

That, my friend is what a HARDNESS TESTER is for. Unless you can measure the hardness of the metal you are blending, you may as well drop the ingots on the floor and blend by the ring or thud test, and maybe add a little eye of newt by the dark of the moon and sing chants while dancing around the pot in your dirty ski vies after having finished all the rum!

[crashguy]

This may aid in the discussion... the known alloy is actually factory cast bullets I got in a trade (advertised as 21 hardness with no mention of composition) in a caliber I do not use. In a different trade, I got stick on and clip on wheel weights, which I separated. I generally use range scrap collected from an indoor range, which is without a doubt less than 21, which I use without issues for my calibers and applications. So my intention is to just stretch some of the pure lead into a hardness range I have been using already, which is arguably over a 5 at least.
I fully believe..if I chuck it all into a pot it will be between 5 and 21... But as my knowledge of alloy increases I want to have a bit more control and I'm willing to do the leg work.
Additionally and as usual ...the information being passed to me on this site has been helpful understanding this aspect of the casting experience.

[RogerDat]

You don't really NEED to know the alloy composition, if you can test hardness then work off of that. Alloy composition in most cases is just a way to achieve a desired BHN. Unless you are trying to make ammo with very demanding characteristics such as bullet expansion or high velocity.

As pointed out in prior post start by adding plain, test if too hard add more plain, too soft add more alloy. Work in small batch. Keep track of what your adding so once you get the hardness BHN you desire you can carry that ratio out to larger batch.

[popper]

As Rogerdat said, you only have Sb,Sn,PB so just make it to work in your gun.

[therealhitman]

Lead alloy calculators (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators)

[LAGS]

I would never trust what someone said is the Advertised BHN, unless it is from a reputable smelter.
Test what you have before starting.
Or like so many guys, they just want someone to justify them dumping it all together and melting it into one big ball of Mystery metal and THINKING it is of some BHN per what someone on the internet said.
Test It, Be Sure
I wish I could post pictures again, ( for some reason i cant again all of a sudden )
I would post pictures of my Billy Bob Hardness tester that uses a Bathroom scale.
It can be used on a drill press or with a hand plunger and is fairly accurate.
All you need is a 5/32 ball bearing and a way to force it into the ingot with 60 lb of pressure.
Then measure the diameter of the dent with a dial caliper, and check the diameter against a chart in Lee Reloading manual Second edition.

[Pee Wee]

Really good info here

[Teddy (punchie)]

I would mix small batches and just take notes. Easier to make small batches then have a mixed up mess. would do a 4 oz. of one and 4 oz of the other, cool in air. Testing after a few days and see. If right off you see that it was wrong for what you needed then add 2 oz. one way or other. now you have about 10 oz. of said alloy, and now you can see where you have been a maybe get a better idea of where or what to do. You may find you and we are all over thinking this, maybe we are not.

[crashguy]

I would never trust what someone said is the Advertised BHN, unless it is from a reputable smelter.
Test what you have before starting.
Or like so many guys, they just want someone to justify them dumping it all together and melting it into one big ball of Mystery metal and THINKING it is of some BHN per what someone on the internet said.
Test It, Be Sure
I wish I could post pictures again, ( for some reason i cant again all of a sudden )
I would post pictures of my Billy Bob Hardness tester that uses a Bathroom scale.
It can be used on a drill press or with a hand plunger and is fairly accurate.
All you need is a 5/32 ball bearing and a way to force it into the ingot with 60 lb of pressure.
Then measure the diameter of the dent with a dial caliper, and check the diameter against a chart in Lee Reloading manual Second edition.

Ok ...LAGS.... You've inspired me...In the interest of expanding my knowledge and experience.. I will endeavor to cobble together a DIY hardness tester and check my alloying progress. Any further description of your device and procedure would be welcome.

[LAGS]

I can post pictures in an Email but not on the site for some reason.
PM me your Email and I will send you Pic's of what I made.

I got it working, somehow

[LAGS]

Billy Bob Hardness tester.
This is nothing more than a Bathroom scale sitting on a drill press.
You make a plunger out of a 10/32 allen head set screw with a 5/32 ball bearing soldered into the allen head end , and a stop nut screwed onto the threads to keep it frim slipping in the chuck when you press down.
I place a steel plate on the scale, and then the Ingot, and then Zero the scale.
Then the plunger is lowered untill it hits the ingot.
You go down untill the scale reads 60 pounds.
Hold at 60 pounds for 20 seconds and it makes a Dent in the Ingot.
Then you take your dial calipers and measure the WIDTH of the dent.
That is compared to a chart that I found in the Lee second Edition reloading manual.
For example.
If the dent is .060 wide, the chart says that is a 14.3 BHN
Now, you dont have to use a Drill press.
You can make the plunger that fits on the end of a 12" shaft with a " T " handle on top.
Then you just Press straight down to get the 60 pound reading like you were using the drill press arbor.

[LAGS]

Bath scale was $5.00 at a Goodwill store, and about a buck at yard sales.
The 5/32 steel ball i got at an Ace Hardware store along with the set screw and nut.
Steel plate can be anypiece of metal to make the scale top flat and not compressable.
They have rubber non slip pads on bath scales.

[LAGS]

Sample Ingots
The one is Lead, stamped with the L ( My secret code ) the dent is .097 and per the chart that is about a 5 BHN
The one stamped W W is COWW ( You would have never figured out that code either ) and the dent measures .065 which is a 12.1 BHN

[LAGS]

Well the picture posting stopped again.
so i cant post the list of diameter to BHN numbers since it wont scan a document either.
( I know it in me, and a crappy computer )
Here goes some hi lites
.045 = BHN 26 or Monotype
.048 = 22.7 BHN
.049 = 21.8 BHN or Linotype tested per my 84-4-12 mix
.052 = 19 BHN or Linotype per Roto metals
.056 = 16.6 or Hardball
.058 = 15.4 or Lyman #2
.065 = 12.1 or COWW or 10 to 1 lead to tin
.071 = 10.1 or 20 to 1 lead to tin

That should give you an idea where you are at with your hardness.

[crashguy]

LAGS ... Thank you for taking the time to pass this info along... you've given me more than a head start. Never thought I would be excited to find out how hard my lead was .... funny how life changes.

[LAGS]

BTW
If you guys were wondering why my Linotype is harder than Rotometals,
It is because my Base Lead, is not PURE Lead.
I an using what I call lead, and is a mixture of soft lead from SOWW's, sheet lead flashings, Range scrap and about anything else that melts.
So, I am starting with a BHN of about 8 average.
Show us pictures of your progress on a lead tester.
And let us know if the wife caught you stealing Her Bathroom scale.

[LAGS]

The pictures that wouldn't post Yesterday Grrr.

[RogerDat]

Makes sense - what we often call "pure" is really just a fairly low percentage alloy. I settled on the term "plain" rather than pure awhile back.

Thanks for the redneck hardness tester description. It so happens I have a drill press not doing anything, a scale and would you believe it some solder.

[LAGS]

i am a regular MacGyver when it comes to reinventing the Wheel and Mouse trap.
Not everone wants to invest in a Lead Hardness tester.
But the principals are the same.
It works, and in most ways , Easier to use than most fancy Store Bought stuff.
All we want is Ball Parks anyway , right.
This is close enough and doesnt cost an arm and a leg.

[turtlezx]

billy bob !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! come back here with them there scales !!

[LAGS]

I cant post pictures all the time for some reason,
So if the Mods want to, and they think my most recent posts are noteworthy enough, they can Re- Post the Billy Bob Hardness tester in another section where it might be of help to many others.
Not many will come across my post, in someone else's unrelated thread.

[zomby woof]

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_2996.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_29981.JPG

[LAGS]

@ zomby woof.
Nice share.
I wish I had one.
But I havent seen any at the second hand stores.( Yes, I am a cheap SOB)