1901 Remington Rolling Block 7x57

[Battis]

I checked out a 1901 Remington Rolling Block 7x57 yesterday. No serial numbers, good bore, good wood, metal is in great shape. I've researched them but can't pin down a price range. The store is asking $375. From what I've seen that price seems good. Any opinions on the price, what to look for in the rifle, etc?
Thanks.

[swamp]

Sounds like a good deal to me. I would check headspace if gauges are handy. 7x57 is available.
swamp

[Jedman]

That is a good price. Cock the hammer several times and see that the half cock and full cock positions work properly. Put your finger between the cocked hammer and the block and squeeze the trigger make sure that feels right. You can check the firing pin protrusion to be sure it's not broken and watch the ejector work when you open the block. Make sure the sights front and back look to be the proper type see if it has a cleaning rod, as most are missing but no big deal there.
If there are no big problems you can find, haggle with them on the price but $ 375 is good for what you described.

Jedman

[Battis]

The half cock/full cock worked fine. The firing pin looked good. I'm pretty sure it had a cleaning rod.
Is a headspace problem enough of a reason not to get the gun?

The store holds guns for a week, no charge, so you can do some research. I'll go back with more knowledge and really check it out.

I just called the store and they said they have headspace gauges, and they'll check it for me.

[ndnchf]

Be aware that 7x57 today is a little different that what that rifle is chambered for. I don't recall the details, but do some research on it. You don't want to shoot the current version, you'll need to handload for it to be safe.

[Battis]

I've researched it and I'd reload if I get the rifle. From what I've read, they're great shooters.

[curator]

As ndnchf mentions, the modern 7X57 cartridge is different the 7mm Spanish Remington rolling block. Usually, firing modern 7X57 cartridges in the rolling block results in badly stretched brass as they headspace differently. Fire-forming new brass then neck sizing thereafter is the way to go with the 1901 Rolling block rifle. A chamber cast will help you with throat and case dimensions. One consideration when reloading for this gun is that the breech blocks are not always exactly perpendicular to the chamber resulting in a slight angle to the case head after firing. With one of my rollers, I had to correctly orient each reloaded cartridge in order to close the breech. Marking each new case with a notch on the rim then positioning the mark at 12 o'clock, allowed me to index them correctly for subsequent firing.

[brstevns]

Buy it you will not regret it. They are going for a lot more then that on GunBroker

[dualsport]

Great guns. The modern headspace gauges probably won't be accurate in that old antique. Your plan to reload is the way to go. Several articles have been published re. the original 7mm vs. modern.

[paul edward]

Price seems reasonable. Do not expect a tight chamber.

These are among the last military single shot rifles made. I have had one since 1972 and enjoy shooting it. Mine also has no serial number.

Reloading for these rifles requires a few extra steps as the generous chamber dimensions lets the brass expand more than usual. I check each fired case for internal thinning with a bent wire tool. If I find a groove, that case goes in the recycle bin. Cases are easily made from range pickup .270 or .30/06. Be sure to anneal the necks.

[John Taylor]

Clean #5 actions are going for $400. The #5 was chamber in 7X57 but it seems the chambers were very loose and some say the action would "spring " under the pressure and the base of the cartridge would not be lined up after firing. More than likely the breach block is not square to the barrel. This same acton was chamber in 30-03 ( forerunner to 30-06) but from my understanding it did not do well. The 7X57 went through some changes around 1913, I don't know if the pressure was increased but it went to a spitzer bullet that was lighter and a lot faster. Be best to load a little lighter than factory loads for this action, it's not as strong as a bolt action. Modern 7x57 is loaded to 51,000. While the rolling block was considered a strong action for black powder the #5 should be loaded to to no more than 42,000 psi.

Look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHwqlksYFO0

[enfield]

Worst case scenario, it gets re barrelled to something else, it's still a rolling block for about $400.00

[pietro]

.

If it has breech issues, it's easy enough to make/install new (slightly oversize) axle pins for the breechblock & hammer.

(I use the shank, of the drillbit used to ream the holes a tad bigger, ground to length to serve as the axle for the holes I just drilled out)

I'd be more concerned if the bore had issues, as corrosive primers were most likely used, when it was first issued.



.

[Battis]

Part of the description that the store put on the tag reads "bore is dark." I looked down the bore from the breech end and it looked dirty but I didn't see any pitting or corrosion. I'm going back soon to really check it out.
It's at the Kittery Trading Post.

[MarkP]

I have one and it is fun to shoot; I load my cartridges with just enough pressure to seal the mouths when firing. Too light of loads will spray your face with gas. The 7 mm SOUP CAN from Midsouth has worked well for me. My bore is dark as well but will still shoot pretty good.

[Battis]

Dualsport - you said that a modern headspace gauge probably wouldn't be accurate in the 1901 Remington. Is that because a modern 7x57 Mauser case is shorter than what the 1901 cases were, or because the rifle is 100+ years old? My brain is still working on the headspace issue.

[curator]

Battis:

Go back and read my earlier post. The modern 7X57 cartridge is different than the turn-of-the-century 7mm Spanish rolling block cartridge. While the differences are slight, they can result in badly stretched brass and head separations on the first firing. There is a lot of information out there about this subject. Some of it is actually correct. Yes, SOME 1901 7mm rolling blocks are OK shooting modern 7X57 cartridges, however most exhibit signs of excess headspace when doing so. Original Remington factory tolerances, age, and wear all contribute to making this worse.

[Battis]

I understand the differences between "old" and "new" 7x57 Mauser cartridges. I don't plan on shooting modern ammo. I was just wondering if it's worth using "modern" headspace gauges to check the headspace (the store offered to let me use their gauges). If not, how else could you check it?

[Wayne Smith]

Don't worry about headspace. You can load it to it's current shoulder after the first firing simply by neck sizing. Now you have the cartridge headspaced to your chamber.

[dualsport]

If it's free might as well stick the gauges in there. More info is more info. But, as stated above, failure to pass with modern gauges is not a big deal. It sounds like you have it figured out. Buy that sucker and have some fun. I've shot mine in CBA postal matches using the old Lyman 284308 'Beagled' up a bit. Very good accuracy.

[country gent]

There are some tricks to headspacing a roller since you CANT feel the friction of go no go or field gages. In a bolt or drop block you feel friction closing on the go gage. On the roller the block rotates into place and needs some way of checking its in location.

[Battis]

I found this 6 yr old thread on the Remington Society forum. Interesting info. Well, interesting to me but probably old news to owners of this rifle.
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2983

[leadman]

The 7X57 used in the RB was longer from the base to the datum on the shoulder. It was made way before SAAMI was around. The bullet was also larger in diameter, IIRC it was .287".
You can expand the neck on modern 7X57 cases to a larger caliber like 30 cal. and then size the neck partially so the breech block will close all the way and the hammer will go all the way forward when the trigger is pulled. There is no camming action to help close the action so the cartridge has to fit properly all the way into the chamber. Can't force a boolit into the rifling very easily with this action.

another way to get correctly fitting cases is to use 8X57 cases. The shoulder on this is farther forward so can be set back the proper amount. cases like the 30-06 can be used but will involve some shortening after sizing.

[Battis]

I'd probably expand the case with a .30 expander, then neck size it down. What would be the steps involved when using an 8x57 or .30-06 case?

[kywoodwrkr]

I'd have dealer use the head space gauges.
You expect the head space to possibly be longer, dealer might not expect this.
Good point to argue a lower cost if not 'correct'.
But as was mentioned, you always have an action.

[Pavogrande]

price seems a mite high -- I bought mine from ye olde hunter in alexandria virginia --
It cost a whopping $4.95 with 20 rounds of really old ammo --
Weapon and ammo all guaranteed to sport pancho villas fingerprints.
Oh, that was in 1957 :-)

[Battis]

Did it have the fingerprints?

[Battis]

I got the rifle today. I traded a sporterized Swiss Vetterli .41 (they gave me more than I wanted for it). I bought Lee dies, now I need a mold and brass (I'll slug the bore after I clean it). Nice looking rifle.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5069_zpsatev9cjg.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5068_zpsenwksoct.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5065_zpscq2j5f3t.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5074_zpskpzvtxmp.jpg

This is what I traded - great gun.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF4561_zps367fddcc.jpg

[Battis]

I have 8 fired 7mm brass cases (not sure how old). 3 of the 8 had unfired primers. Each case chambered and ejected. The primers smoked but didn't pop, so at least I know the firing pin works.
They're old, but they should be fine to use.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/9aa14c82-2d77-451b-8fb6-a91a9666d760_zpsfoia1vug.jpg

[Pavogrande]

Looks really very nice -- no pancho villa fingerprints there -- not even emelio zapata's -

[oscarflytyer]

Worst case scenario, it gets re barrelled to something else, it's still a rolling block for about $400.00

Kinda what I was thinking. Have been doing some research on these, and a local has a lot of rifles/knowledge on them. On my bucket list in SOME caliber!

[oscarflytyer]

Just saw the trade an purchase pics. Don't think you can get hurt! Enjoy!

[dualsport]

FWIW, I have fired American 7x57 factory ammo in my '97 RB 7mm without incident. Also, some S&B brand. Not a lot, and I'm not endorsing the practice. Just saying my gun did not have a problem with it. I doubt I will do it again since stressing the old war horse is dumb. It does shoot boolits real good. Congratulations on your score, looks like a nice sample. Also, I've had good luck using the RCBS trim die to shape up Cavim brass.

[leadman]

The 8X57 is easy to reform if you want to go this way. The shoulder is farther forward than the 7X57 so just partially size the case and try it in the chamber. The breechblock has to close all the way so the hammer block will go under it to lock the action so check this. Just size until it fits.
You can fireform your existing 7X57 with some powder like Unique, Cream of Wheat cereal and a wax plug. I would load about 15gr of Unique, fill the rest of the case with COW and put a wax plug in the mouth to hold everything in place. If you can raise the muzzle straight up this is best but some ranges won't let you do this.
Were the cases you fired loaded?
Gun appears to be in great shape. I have 3 of them and will die with them most likely.

[Battis]

The cases I fired were unloaded but a few had primers in them that just smoked when the pin hit them. I tried to resize those old cases but they would not fit in the Lee 7x57 Mauser shell holder (#2), but they did fit in the #3. I gave up trying to resize them before they got stuck.

[Battis]

I sized a 30-06 case to 7x57 and it chambers perfectly. From what I've read, the "old" 7x57 Mauser cases were 0.0065 to 0.0131 longer than the "new" cases. With that in mind, doesn't it make more sense to use the longer 30-06 cases so you can get the extra length instead of the shorter "new" 7x57? Or is the shortness of the new cases only an issue until they're fired?

[Multigunner]

Everyone seems to already know that you shouldn't over amp these old rolling blocks but I figured I should add an historical note.

In 1915 the British Admiralty bought a number of Remington single shot rifles chambered for the 7X57 cartridge, along with quite a few commercially available rifles including Winchester .44-40 carbines and British sporting and target rifles. These were for use by sharpshooters and crews of armed trawlers.
The Remington rifles were withdrawn and sent back after several incidents of breech failures.

If I'm correct I expect the problem arose from the use of ELY brand 7mm Mauser milspec cartridges made before and during the war.
The 1893 and 1895 Mauser rifles in use during the Gran Chaco War also suffered from mil spec ammo intended for 98 actioned Mausers and MGs. Some milspec 7X57 ammo was loaded very hot.
Near as I can tell the 7mm and 8mm Mauser sporting ammo manufactured in the USA has been kept to modest pressure levels, at least they were back in the old days. Can't be sure that this is still true.

[Jedman]

Looks very nice !

[leadman]

The extra length is most likely from the base to the datum line on the shoulder that determines headspace specs. A chamber cast would help you form the cases closer to the chamber. Most of the period 7mm ammo had 175gr or 160gr bullets which were long so the throats were cut long in the chamber also.

[BCRider]

I'll wade in with a trick I read about for sizing brass to some old military bolt action rifles. No reason why it won't work here as well.

The trick involves using a dental rubber band or small rings cut from latex tubing around the base of the rim. This holds the case head back against the face of the bolt, or rolling block in this case. When fired the cases form to the chamber. But since the head is already held against the face of the block the brass can't stretch overly in the neck area just ahead of the head. With this trick even technically oversize head spaced rifles can be used well since the brass is fire formed to fit the chamber complete with the "custom headspaced brass" courtesy of this trick.

And since this is a single shot after that the cases won't need any full length sizing. At worse you may find that you need to just lightly set back the shoulder by a couple of thou to allow the block to close correctly. But you may not even need that. Or maybe just a slight shoulder bump every few firings as required. Hard to say at this point. But if the neck doesn't need much care then it's just neck sizing after that to attain a decent neck tension. And being a single shot you don't even need all that much neck tension either.

[Battis]

I annealed, trimmed and sized 14 .30-06 cases until they chambered (2.255" case length). I expanded the neck slightly to take the .285 174 gr bullets bought from bullet maker 57. The case would hold 14 grs TrailBoss, so I loaded them with approx. 10 grs to start. I also loaded 6 rounds made from older 7mm cases. At 100 yds, they gonged the gong every time, though it took some time for them to get there. No splits, no ejection problems, very little recoil (I'll increase that load or try another powder).
The bore slugged at .285. Bullet maker 57's bullets seem to be just right. Forming the cases from .30-06 isn't very hard or time consuming, plus I can get the extra case length needed. Geez, it almost looks like I know what I'm doing.
Nice rifle to shoot.

[Battis]

After the time spent forming these cases, should I buy a neck sizing die or partially resize with FL die?

[stubbicatt]

Something to consider after you get some non ruptured cases is to send 3 to C&H Tool and Die and ask them to make a custom die for you. Not terribly expensive considering.

[Buckshot]

............From the photo of your rifle, that looks like a M1897 to me. The rear sight gives it away. The barrel on mine is stamped "7mm SM" for 7mm Spanish Mauser. The barrel on mine is like new, yet the firing pin is a bit larger in OD then one might like to see in a 40K psi cartridge.

I've heard the headspace issue time and again about RB's, and the fact remains that if the case is fully supported in the chamber with the breech block closed, you're home free. Doesn't mean you'll like the looks of the empty case when you extract it :-) You can take a fired case out of the chamber of my RB and a 30 cal jacketed slug will almost fall through the caseneck! The body of the case is pretty much as it should be. After resizing the caseneck the case slides right back into the chamber.

Due to the generous caseneck OD I make the 7x57 out of 30-06 brass as this makes the casenecks much thicker. Regardless I anneal the necks after the 3rd firing. So far I've only lost a few, but I don't shoot it a whole lot. A befits this board I use the RCBS 7mm-168 cast slug as cast with a GC seated and hand lubed. It shoots very well with 23.0 grs of IMR 4198.

..............Buckshot

[Battis]

It has the 1901 stamp on the tang. I pulled the stock and found a serial number (5348) on the tang and another 3 digit number on the stock. I've been using old 30-06 brass that works fine except for the cases that I cut too long in the neck don't eject well, or at all. A Smart Car with the doors closed just about fits into a fired case. I got a Lee neck sizing die but even neck sizing has to be done in steps - I think I need a fatter bullet (I'm using .285). I tried a chamber cast but I'm cerrosafe challenged - someday I'll get it right. I've tried 10 gr and 12 grs of Trail Boss and it's very accurate with either.
For the heck of it, I did a chamber cast with a mixture of beeswax, paraffin and Olive oil that didn't tell me much (way too much time on my hands), but when I cleaned that mixture out of the barrel with hot water, it pulled all the junk out of the rifling, junk that I didn't know was there. The barrel is amazingly clean now.

[Battis]

question deleted (the answer was right in front of me)

[EDG]

A friend of mine had one of these in very good condition.
A fired case looks like it was fired in a 7x57 Ackley improved.

When fired the heavy firing pin fall drove the loaded round forward jamming the neck into the throat.
This prevented the neck from releasing the bullet. This blew the primer pocket and the escaping gas blew back around the firing pin blowing the hammer back to full cock. The breech block blew open and the case was half ejected. The blown primer was stuck to the nose of the firing pin.

He took once fired .270 brass and cut it to the right length and then pushed the shoulder back to exactly fit the chamber. After that the old rifle shot normally. He had to neck size since the brass from his FL die did not look like the fired brass that came out of his chamber.

[Battis]

I mistakenly added overall length to the reformed 7x57 cases, then I went back over the posts
and read Leadman's post:

The extra length is most likely from the base to the datum line on the shoulder that determines headspace specs.
Even though I formed the new shoulders from the 30-06 in the correct spot, and the "longer" cases chambered, adding extra overall length to the cases caused the fired cases not to eject properly, or at all. I trimmed them to the proper length and all is good.
A chamber cast would have helped.

[Battis]

After neck sizing and reloading, some of the fired cases would not chamber. Then I remembered curator's post:

One consideration when reloading for this gun is that the breech blocks are not always exactly perpendicular to the chamber resulting in a slight angle to the case head after firing. With one of my rollers, I had to correctly orient each reloaded cartridge in order to close the breech. Marking each new case with a notch on the rim then positioning the mark at 12 o'clock, allowed me to index them correctly for subsequent firing.

I spun the cartridges in the chamber until they slid in.
Great info on this forum.

[curator]

Battis,

I am happy to have provided information of value, based on my actual experience with my personal Remington rolling block rifles of which I have an even dozen in different calibers. An interesting characteristic that seems to be linked to the "Y" chromosome is the propensity to only read the directions AFTER the thing doesn't work. To be kind, you could not have known the importance of the information until after you had the problem. Sometimes it is difficult to learn when you don't know what you don't know. My English grandfather would often say:"it is a wise man that has plumbed the depths of his own ignorance." Orienting your brass cases (I notch mine and load at 12 o'clock) and trimming them to the chamber length will allow you to shoot 175 grain/.286" boolits with excellent accuracy as long as you don't exceed your alloy's compression strength. About 1800 fps seems to be the limit for accuracy with mine with WDWW+2% tin; BHN24.

[Battis]

I'm a visual, "Ah, there it is" kind of guy. The first time I fired the gun, the cartridges chambered perfectly, though some didn't eject (too long). The second time, some of them wouldn't chamber at all until I spun them. A lot of info posted on potential possibilities hasn't happened yet (to me), and might not happen, but if it does happen to me or someone else, hopefully that little light will come on. Like you said, you don't know what you don't know, but that's what all learning is about. You can't know everything about everything.
For me, safety is everything. Safety advice I take very seriously, to the point of obsession. A case that won't chamber because of a slanted case head is not a danger, compared to a double charged case that will chamber. The "depth of ignorance" is only a factor if you don't learn from that depth.
That's why I ask a lot of questions. For example, would FL sizing of the fired cases remove the angle or slant from the case heads, and would that stress the brass too much at the case head? Thanks for the info.

[Battis]

I've fired a hundred plus reloaded rounds with no problems. Then today this happened. The case was an old 7mm - not reformed 30-06. I fired it before and neck sized it. Today, it chambered, but hard. Buzzed my forehead a little when it split. It didn't split totally until I knocked it out with a rod. 14 grs of Trail Boss. Every other round was fine.
I'm sure I missed the signs.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5104_zpsijf69rj3.jpg

[ascast]

I've fired a hundred plus reloaded rounds with no problems. Then today this happened. The case was an old 7mm - not reformed 30-06. I fired it before and neck sized it. Today, it chambered, but hard. Buzzed my forehead a little when it split. It didn't split totally until I knocked it out with a rod. 14 grs of Trail Boss. Every other round was fine.
I'm sure I missed the signs.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5104_zpsijf69rj3.jpg

This is the result I had as pictured after 3 full length sizings and full throttle loads. It was not a length of chamber issue but a diameter of chamber issue. It seems they were cut to a larger diameter in the base area.
Modern brass is OK as long as you do not full length size.

[Geezer in NH]

Pass at $350 if you are nut's. Worth at lest 500 IMHO even though it needs a 4473 as it is not an antique. Nice strong action for rebuilding and you can sell the rest of the parts other than the action that is worth all of the $300.

[Battis]

I made a cerrosafe chamber cast. How do I interpret the cast to determine the correct mold?

[Battis]

After a lot of thinking and measuring and re-slugging, I decided on this mold. It's on the way.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=1781