45/410 Contender = 11.4x74R Wildcat

[MikeP]

I have found what I consider to be the ideal brass to use in the very long 45/410 Contender chamber: the old European metric round introduced in 1900 and still somewhat popular over there in doubles and single shot rifles, the 9.3x74R. These cases are available in the US from Norma and RWS. I got my Norma cases from Midway, and at about a dollar a pop, they are not cheap. However, they are the best solution I’ve found in the long 45/410 chamber, and I’m betting the cases will last for many reloadings based on my preliminary testing results.

I roughly measured my 45/410 chamber and found it is a very long 83mm. It is generously sized to fit the long 3-inch 410 shotgun shell. Since the 45 Colt case is only 32.6 mm in length, you can see the bullet would have to pole-vault over to the rifling to exit the barrel. Not good for accuracy, especially with cast lead bullets, as many have reported.

My next step was to use the .444 Marlin case, which is a respectable 56.5 mm long. Necking up the 444 to 45 creates a 45/444 wildcat round, sometimes called the 450 Mongo. Even though the accuracy of this combination was very much better than the 45 Colt, there was still a long gap between bullet and rifling because of my long 83mm chamber. Also, occasionally the rim of the .444 will get behind the Contender’s extractor, requiring some hassle to get it out of the barrel after firing. This is not much of a problem at the firing range (I use an unsharpened wooden lead pencil to push the brass out), but in the field where a quick second shot may be needed (gasp!), this procedure is not too appealing to say the least.

As the ultimate answer to shooting bullets accurately and reliably in the 45/410 Contender, I have concluded the old 9.3x74R case to be it. This brass is 74.7 mm long, thus allowing the bullet, especially heavy ones, to essentially extend to the rifling, which is always good for accuracy. This is especially true of cast bullets like I prefer, because cast bullets don’t like Weatherby-type freeboring where the bullet accelerates in the rifling-free bore (chamber) and hits the rifling at high speed, thus causing the relatively soft lead bullets to strip in the bore. It’s much better to use jacketed bullets in such applications.

To adapt the 9.3x74R case for my cast lead bullets, I first annealed the necks in hot lead to help the brass accommodate opening up from 37 caliber to 45. I then loaded the cases with 200-grain cast lead bullets used in my .357. These bullets fit in the unaltered neck finger-tight, which was enough to develop the pressure needed for forming cases. I used 15 grains of Lil Gun to form the cases. The unaltered, new parent case fit into my Contender’s chamber perfectly. When fired, the case mouth opened up to almost the .45 size needed, and the front end of the brass was kind of wavy due to the parent case’s original shape. To open the mouth up to .45 for reloading, I put a little case lube on a long Craftsman 6mm socket with a quarter-inch drive, which has a shank which measures right at .45 inch. I used an arbor press to ease the socket in for sizing, and a pair of pliers to remove it. I then used the normal .45 reloading tool to bell the mouth to prevent damaging the base of the bullet or the case when reloading. I crimped the neck lightly after loading.

I use polyester filling, rolled up so that the length and breadth of the empty space in the case between powder and bullet are occupied, thus making the round insensitive to position when shooting.

I won’t cite my Lil Gun loads for what now is the metric equivalent of a 11.4 x 74R wildcat. I think this gun can be loaded to reliably kill anything on the North American continent. I use a 332-grain Lyman cast bullet, and I will say the gun and cartridge combination is awesome in every sense. With this cartridge, all of the freebore in the long Contender chamber is taken up with a cartridge the size of a cigar.

When you consider that the Contender 45/410 will also shoot full-length 3-inch 410 loads, a more versatile survival weapon does not exist.

As with any wildcatting experimentation, use extreme caution if you decide to create an 11.4x74R in the Contender. Like any wildcat development, you are blazing a new path which can be dangerous.

I’ll be using my 11.4x74R to go after hogs and deer this year. If we had a bear season, I’d use this gun for that too. If I get bored, I can screw in the 410 choke and kill a quail or squirrel for the pot. For such a compact gun in the field, it just doesn’t get any better than that.

[No_1]

To adapt the 9.3x74R case for my cast lead bullets, I first annealed the necks in hot lead to help the brass accommodate opening up from 37 caliber to 45. I then loaded the cases with 200-grain cast lead bullets used in my .357. These bullets fit in the unaltered neck finger-tight, which was enough to develop the pressure needed for forming cases. I used 15 grains of Lil Gun to form the cases. The unaltered, new parent case fit into my Contender’s chamber perfectly. When fired, the case mouth opened up to almost the .45 size needed, and the front end of the brass was kind of wavy due to the parent case’s original shape. To open the mouth up to .45 for reloading, I put a little case lube on a long Craftsman 6mm socket with a quarter-inch drive, which has a shank which measures right at .45 inch. I used an arbor press to ease the socket in for sizing, and a pair of pliers to remove it. I then used the normal .45 reloading tool to bell the mouth to prevent damaging the base of the bullet or the case when reloading. I crimped the neck lightly after loading.

Do you happen to have before and after pics of this creation?

Thanks,
Robert

[MikeP]

No, I don't, Robert. Sorry.

The parent cartridge looks like a long 30-06 with a rim. After first firing/fireforming, it looked like it's got a head on it, since the mouth of the cartridge is expanded to near .45 for maybe an inch or so while the rest of the body retains its original dimension, ie, somewhat more narrow. The subsequent firings bring this expanded portion farther down the body, making it look like a snake trying to swallow something. I haven't shot my cases enough to tell how rapidly or how far this expansion will go; I think it will depend on pressures and repetition. I have found, however, that once the front of the cartridge is expanded by initial firings, the bullet is held in exact alignment with the rifling for fine accuracy, which is the goal of my exercise.

[Buckshot]

.............Mike, that's a really neat deal you've created there. And good out of the box thinking too! Too bad the Mag Tech 410 brass hulls are only 2.5" long. They're like $12/25 or so. Out of curiosity what kind of load are you using in that thing? Bet you get some looks when you break the breech and slide that long panatella length cartridge in the breech!

You ever thought about using BP in it? :D You're gonna have'ta make yourself a shell belt so you can slide about 10 of those dudes through the loops. We really DO need pictures of a loaded round! If you can send me a jpeg photo I can get it posted here.

Again a really neat creation. Has sititng in front of the tube all beat to heck, doesn't it?

..............Buckshot

[Wayne Smith]

From COTW #10, p.426

"10.3x65Rmm Baenzinger

This was at one time a popular European target cartridge, particularly in Switzerland. It is now obsolete, but the Swiss manufactured it until the end of World War II. Swiss Martini-action single-shot rifles were made for the 10.3x65Rmm. This cartridge is actually the brass 2.5-inch 410 (10.35 or 36-gague) shotgun shell loaded with a lead softpoint bullet. However, the rim is a bit thicker than the average 410 shotshell. DWM case No. 164 is listed in the 1904 catalog under schrotfliten, or shotguns. Ammunition can be made from brass 410 cases, although the rim usually has to be built up to the proper thickness. A brass washer is the easiest solution to this. The equally hard-to-find 405 Winchester case can also be used if trimmed to the right length and the rim turned down. New brass cases from Bertram Bullet Company are being imported by Huntington. Lyman #412263 (290 gr) cast bullets can be sized and used. Power is about the same sa the 44 Magnum revolver cartridge fired in a rifle, soit would make a fairly satisfactory short-range deer number.

There is also a 10.3x65Rmm Swiss target (old DWM case No. 237A) that is practically identical to the above except for a thin rim. This one has been obsolete for a good many years. Cases are currently made by Bartram Bullet Company."

There really is nothing new under the sun!

[rockrat]

You could probably use a 405 win. basic brass which is, I think, about 82mm long. rim might be a little too thick, but I have some and will try it out. also have some 9.3 x 74r for my double rifle, so will try it out also. have one of the survival NEF guns, so a bit more horsepower sounds interesting. :)

[Wayne Smith]

And 405 Win. brass is readily available from Hornaday. I'm at the office and can't measure mine. I can post later (tomorrow?) the length of a 405 case when I get home and measure one.

[Wayne Smith]

.405 Win brass dimensions:

Base .461

Rim diam. .543

Rim thick. .075

Length 2.58"

Hope this helps.

[MikeP]

It appears the .405 is shorter than desirable, at 2.58 inches, since the 9.3x74R is 2.94 inches long. In the Contender 45/410 chamber, size does matter.

[lar45]

How is the accuracy with the long cases?
I just picked up an older Octagon 45 colt TC bbl. It was listed as 45 colt only, but it was reamed out to take the 410 shells :( They said they would take it back, but if it can be made to shoot??
What do you use to size, seat and crimp? I'm thinking that maybe the 460 S&W size die might work. My 45 colt size die won't size the whole 444 case.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/6C30D71010176C8/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/628CA3F2355CD9A/standard.jpg

[MikeP]

Hey, Buckshot, thanks for posting the pictures for me, especially at 1:33 in the morning. Wow...what dedication to the casting community! You da man!

Lar45, sorry it took so long to get to your questions. I hadn't looked at the old post lately.

Relative to accuracy, I'm still testing various boolits. Since I don't bench-test any of my loads (I use my unrested, seated hunting position to test my field shooting and my loads at the same time, which isn't as precise as from a bench but allows me to get some field-type practice in at the same time, since deer season starts in a couple of weeks around here.) Having said that, the last time I shot, using my 332-grain soft-cast (8 to 9 BHN) Lymans, I was getting around an inch at 20 and 25 yards, using a Leupold 2X. I've still got some testing to do in the next couple of weeks before live-fire executions in the woods, but I'm very pleased with the results so far. One thing I have found, which I don't remember anyone saying is a problem for them, is the fact that I was getting some occasional yaw, even a keyhole or two, from the use of too much polyester filler. At first I thought that maybe my twist was too slow for the heavy boolits, but I didn't see how that could be because you would think all of the heavy boolits would yaw, which they weren't. Then, I measured the twist and found it was 1 - 18, which should be quite good for heavy boolits in the .45. After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I was probably using too much polyester to fill the largely unused powder space, allowing the polyester to bunch up on the base of the boolit in an uneven manner, thus leading to an undesired "push" when leaving the barrel and the resulting yaw, similar to what you can observe when a race car is hit in the rear and goes sideways. Sure enough, I quit the polyester, and the yaw/keyholes disappeared. Even though this means the powder is not consistently held in place anymore, I shoot from ground blinds anyway, so the powder should essentially be horizontal on the bottom of the case for whatever consistency that yields, which seems to be very good so far.

About your questions of sizing, seating and crimping, I use a current-issue Lee .45 Colt/.45 Casull/.455 Webley sizing die in my press. I just size the case enough to hold the bullet in place, maybe a half inch, and don't go any farther down the case. Since my loads seem to be quite low pressure loads at around 1000 fps with the 332-grain boolits (all I can handle with my level of "skill" shooting heavy kickers), I am getting excellent case wear and tear, and they slip in and out of the chamber perfectly. In fact, I have now reloaded one set of cases 10 times so far without any sign of wear except for the fact that the case has expanded to .45 caliber to fit the chamber. At this rate, the cases should last many more firings, which should totally make up for the cost of this quality Norma brass. Since I was seeking increased accuracy in the first place, which I have clearly achieved, I'm a happy camper. If I ever want to ramp-up the pressure and energy, the big case certainly will allow that, probably up to the point of a fractured wrist.

To seat the boolit, I use a simple Lee Loader die and seating tool. I don't crimp, but if I did, I could use the same Lee Loader die for that function too.
I use a Lee hand primer to seat the primers. I have found that Lee's shellholders number 5 for his primer tool and his sizing die fit the case perfectly.

It all works out very well for me.

[BluesBear]

Since my brother is supposed to be sending my old .45/.410 Contender barrrel back to me soon, I searched back and dug this thread up.

Has there been any new research done?
I was thinking that this might be a great candidate for Trail Boss powder. Trail Boss might just yield enough load density to work fine without any filler at all.

[MikeP]

I didn't have an opportunity to use those cigar-sized cases on game last year, but I probably will use them this year. Just too many things going on last year.

I checked my shooting log and found that I am still using the same set of 20 cases that I first fireformed. I have had no case failures yet, and each has been reloaded 16 times at this point. So, the cases are certainly holding up well.

I have not tried Trail Boss. The powders I have used thus far have been Blue Dot, Lil Gun and IMR4198. The bullets I've used are 250 and 300 gr. Hornady HPXTP jacketed, and cast lead using a 332 gr Lyman mould. All have shot very well, and any of my loads would get the job done on just about any big game in the US.

These are heavy-hitting suckers, on both sides of the gun. The powders ignite quite well, burn completely, and provide fine accuracy which is far superior to the shorter cases in this long, long, long chamber.

Although I didn't use the solid bullets on game yet, I did use the barrel with a reloaded brass shotshell and the choke last year. I killed a big ole fox squirrel which came by my stand about 30 yards away. As I've said before, this is a versatile weapon!

[lar45]

Were the 45/410 barrels factory chambered for the 2.5" or 3" shell? I was wondering if yours was reamed more for the 3" shell?
I picked up a couple of boxes of the new 2.5" 410 brass that takes a large pistol primer. The old ones all used to take a Berdan primer, except the 12 ga. Now they all take the large pistol primer.
So if you have 2.5" chamber then maybe this brass might work for you.

I have one of those El-Cheapo Rexio single shot pistols in 45/410. The chamber is kind of rough, but it was only $135. I saw online they are supposed to make a scope mount for it. Anyway, I tried some 45 colt loads with the 230 BD and they shot great at 25 yards. I think the 2.5" 410 brass might be good in this gun. I will definatly keep the pressures low.
I was thinking of trail boss or 5744?
I have a couple of the FMJ derringers in 45/410. I have loaded a 340gn bullet in a 45/444 to around 500-600 fps. That definatly is interesting to shoot. I have an over under and a SxS. The over under is easy to ajust velocity to get the bullet to shoot to the sights. I haven't tried the SxS yet with heavy loads. I probably won't.

My 45 octagon barrel that was reamed out to 410 that I was supposed to send back. Well, I had it sitting next to my computer desk in the box it came in, which had lots of kraft paper bunched up for packing materials. AND
someone did me a favor of cleaning up some of my mess on garbage day when I was at a Dr. appt. :(
I hate it when $200 just gets thrown in the trash.

On the plus side, that Rexio does shoot the 230 BD very well. If I try heavier loads in the Rexio, the rubber forend flys off the gun. I guess it needs a washer under the screw.

Okay, now here's an interesting 45/410 idea.
Taurus is making a 5 shot revolver in their tracker series in 45/410 for the 2.5" loads! It's the model 44 ten, in blue or stainless. I wonder if they made any chamber modifications to not allow 454 or 460 ammo to fit?
I guess I might have to buy one and find out.
I have some 700gn 500 S&W bullets sitting here. I wonder what a 700 gn .452 bullet would be like from the long cylinder revolver?
Maybe it's just late and I'm tired?

[BluesBear]

The factory .45/.410 contender barrels were all 3".


The Taurus 44-Ten revolver I tried handled 3" ammo quite well and appeared to be bored straight through.

I am just waiting for someone to decapitate themselves by shooting .460S&W in a Contender or a Taurus.

I really wish T/C would make a .460 barrel for the Contender.
If I wasn't so heavy into Contender barrels already I'd switch to an Encore for just that reason.

I recently came across a number of WCC aluminum 3" .410 shells.
I think I'll try reloading them with some lead SWC just tgo see how they work.


Has anyone here tried the .444 based .45 Mongo?
Soulds like it would be almost the same as using 2½" brass shotshells.

[lar45]

Blues, did you shoot any 45 colt ammo in the Taurus? ?? Was it really heavy or awkward being so long in the cylinder?
I have a BFR in 45-70, but it's too big and heavy to think about packing around the woods just for plinking and whatever.

What pressure is the 460 loaded to? Would it be safe in a Contender? TC would probably never make a barrel because you could fire 454 Casull in it and that pressure would be too high for the contender.

Just looked at Hogdons site and they have loads listed for the 460 up to 57ksi. Say good buy to a contender barrel.

[C A Plater]

A Contender in .460 S&W would quickly look the the one in the attached photo.

[BluesBear]

The Taurus wasn't as off balance as I thought it would be.
It was actucally fun.

However the pattern with .410 #7½ shot were just too big for any practical use. #9 might work better. Too many holes in the pattern.

Accuracy with .45 Colt ammo was tolerable.
I wonder if it could be fitted for one of the ole external T/C chokes?
That would really improve shot patterns.

I'm still afraid that some bozo will drop a .454 or a .460 into one and lose an arm.


***************


Thompson Center won't even make a .454 barrel for the Contender so I know the .460 is out of the question.
But since T/C does make a .444 Marlin barrel I don't see why the .454 is such a stretch?

I like the concept if the .460 S&W Magnum but only in a Contender/Encore platform. I just don't like the X-frame revolvers.

[BluesBear]

C.A., I feel there is a story behnd that photo.

What is it?

[C A Plater]

C.A., I feel there is a story behnd that photo.

What is it?
Not my gun and I came by the picture second or third hand but from what I recall, it was a .444 barrel, handloads and I understand the shooter avoided serious injury. A member of the TCBunch mailing list use it as wallpaper on his computer for a reminder to take care when loading ammo.

[lar45]

I looked at a Taurus 44 ten 45 colt/ 410 at a local gun shop and it felt pretty good in the hand. Their website says it only weighs 32 ounces. I looked down the cylinder and it has a sharp sholder where the throat starts so you wouldn't be able to chamber a longer round. The cylinder was rather small and the frame and everything was trimmed down so it's not a huge clunky thing like the SRH. You wouldn't want to shoot any warm 45 colt loads in it.

http://www.taurususa.com/imagesMain/H_4410TrackerSS.jpg
It's a kind of weird looking gun, but I think I should pick one up before they stop making them.

[Jim-CT]

After reading Mike P's comments, I had to try it. Unfortunately for me the t.c barrel had digested many 45lc's. the cleaning & polishing of the chamber is still going on. :roll: The Hornady 9.3x74R brass shaped up nicely Still testing loads but mostly with the 230-250 Cast or Jacketed boolits. This is in a Contender.
Jim

[wiljen]

Pepe Ray, myself, and Fishhawk are all playing with this round too. It is a little bit like trying to load a 45-120 with bullseye. Lots of case, but low pressure round makes it tough to find suitable powders. Trailboss and 5744 show some promise.

[Slowpoke]

Anyone ever try the 405 Basic brass 3 1/4 " as a 3 inch .410.

Maybe you guys would be better off filling up that extra case capacity with multiple RB's instead of a single boolit. :)

[Pepe Ray]

Hi there!
" Maybe you guys would be better off filling up that extra case capacity with multiple RB's instead of a single boolit."
Yep! That too, will happen.
How does one acquire 3" Brass, .410 shells w/o taking out a mortgage?

We're on a mission/track. Called wait for the "back order".
Pepe Ray

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i have to ask why. the encore i bought my dad will shoot 255 rcbs swc cast out of #2 with 9.5 grains of herco into an inch at 25 yards. Dont know what the velocity is as i never chronoed it but it goes over 900 in a revolver so i would imagine its over a 1000 in that gun. Its killed to deer with no problem. One at 75 yards. Seems to me alot of fooling around to fix a problem that doesnt exist. Ive loaded for two other tc 410s and both could be made to shoot well with some load experimenting using 45 colt brass.

[MikeP]

Wow, I haven't been around these parts since last March and what do I find, my old post.

I last used my 11.4x74R wildcat Contender on a deer hunt last year. I killed a buck. I think it was a four or six point, can't remember exactly right now...about 160 pounds if I remember correctly. I was stitting in a low-slung folding stool which allows me to hold steady aim by bracing forearms and/or elbows on my knees. I saw the buck coming up a trail and was planning to shoot when he got to a clearing I had staked out. However, he took a turn away from me and I had to take the shot quartering forward. The shot hit him pretty far back in the rib cage and angled forward, destroying his liver and other vitals. He ran forward a few yards and stopped out of sight. I followed him and saw a most unusual sight. He was standing on his hind legs, resting downward on his bended front legs' elbows(?), looking back at me. He was in great shock, as was I seeing him in that configuration. A second shot finished him off.

When I field-dressed him, I found a great mass of clotted blood in his chest cavity. The bullet I used was a hard-cast flat-nose (I think 335-grains) that penetrated completely though him without expansion. The effect was most satisfying.

By using the long cartridge case and thus bringing the bullet right up to the rifling, I have experienced much-improved accuracy and no leading with these long cartridges. I was not able to achieve this with the short .45 Colt round.

I still use .444 cases with shotshell for snakes and such in the summertime using the choke. The 11.4x74R cases are even better at this, since they can hold more shot. They can kill squirrels within 25 yards or so as well.

The .45/.410 Contender makes probably the most versatile compact weapon out there, for game large and small and everything in between. It would be my choice as a survival gun with a variety of game-getting and defensive loadings that it is capable of.

[BCB]

I am going to renew this thread in hopes of someone posting a picture of this 9.3x74R loaded to shoot in the 45/410...

I have been researching it a bit all around the web and I am still a bit confused and, maybe scared, might be a better word!...

I am going to read this thread closer, but updated comments might help...

Thanks...BCB

[jh45gun]

guess i have to ask why. the encore i bought my dad will shoot 255 rcbs swc cast out of #2 with 9.5 grains of herco into an inch at 25 yards. Dont know what the velocity is as i never chronoed it but it goes over 900 in a revolver so i would imagine its over a 1000 in that gun. Its killed to deer with no problem. One at 75 yards. Seems to me alot of fooling around to fix a problem that doesnt exist. Ive loaded for two other tc 410s and both could be made to shoot well with some load experimenting using 45 colt brass.

I totally agree with ya Lloyd! when I first read this thread I got all worried about it since I had just ordered a barrel for my Encore and only test fired it at the range. that was the original barrel with the crappy notch rear sight and shotgun bead front sight. Accuracy was so so. My Problem was I was shooting high with the existing factory sights even the shot patterns shot high using them. I did not shoot for groups as it was shooting high. Then I though to myself what the hell if I was shooting a rifle with that crude of a sight set up I doubt it would do any better let alone a pistol. SO I ordered a Williams Slugger Fiber Optic Front sight set up. Adjusted it to shoot the center of the bull at 25 yards. Like your dad I was getting around an inch. at 25 yards that is pretty good for me with iron sights with any pistol.My load is 8 grains of Unique with a Lee SWC 252 grains and ran through a Lyman sizing die 252. Now using them sights my shot patterns are centered too. I took two grouse using 410 7.5 shot at 15 to 20 yards with it last fall. Them Slugger sights fit well on the vent rib and they work great.

[BCB]

Well, I have been trying different loads in the 45LC for this Contender barrel…

Unfortunately, I ain’t gettin’ anywhere near the 1” at 25 yards! The best I got was about 5 inches at that distance, and a couple of the loads tested didn’t even hit the 8.5”x11” paper with all of the rounds fired in a 3-shot group…

That is enough for me! I am not going to waste the money on buy a box of jacketed bullets as I doubt they will do any better…

If you guys got a 1-inch shooter, you got a good one!...

The 9.3x74R might be the best bet, but I really don’t know if I am ready to take that plunge for a lowly 45/410 Contender!...

Best to stay with the 410 and patterns I have of it aren’t all that impressive! In many cases, a rabbit might escape at 25 yards!!!

Well, it was worth a try though. But I am most glad the barrel isn’t mine!...

BCB

[jh45gun]

Well, I have been trying different loads in the 45LC for this Contender barrel…

Unfortunately, I ain’t gettin’ anywhere near the 1” at 25 yards! The best I got was about 5 inches at that distance, and a couple of the loads tested didn’t even hit the 8.5”x11” paper with all of the rounds fired in a 3-shot group…

That is enough for me! I am not going to waste the money on buy a box of jacketed bullets as I doubt they will do any better…

If you guys got a 1-inch shooter, you got a good one!...

The 9.3x74R might be the best bet, but I really don’t know if I am ready to take that plunge for a lowly 45/410 Contender!...

Best to stay with the 410 and patterns I have of it aren’t all that impressive! In many cases, a rabbit might escape at 25 yards!!!

Well, it was worth a try though. But I am most glad the barrel isn’t mine!...

BCB

So are you shooting the barrel with the rib and the notch rear sight and a front bead sight? If so I doubt you would get an inch at 25 yards them sights are just too course and not regulated very well mine shot high. As far as the 410 goes you got to know your distances 25 yards is the extreme limit of this set up 20 yards and closer is best and no reason why a person should not be able to get some shots that close. It is best if you put some sort of adjustable sights on that rib like I did Williams Slugger Sights which are about 30 dollars.

[BCB]

jh45gun,

I am shooting the standard 10” Contender barrel—adjustable rear sight and a blade on the front—no rib…

Although, the sights aren’t “target sights”, they are good enough to keep 3 boolits on a sheet of paper at 25 yards—or at least I can with my other Contender barrels before I ‘scoped them…

I also shoot several revolvers with open sights and I can put them into 1.5 or there about at 25 yards…

So, I think it is the excessive jump the boolit must make to get to the rifling…

A 9.0 grain charge of Unique would hit the paper 3 times, mostly, but they were at random locations…

A 20.0 grain charge of Lil’Gun would hit the paper sometimes!...

I figure there ain’t any sense in working with something that starts out that way!...

But, it was worth try…

Thanks…BCB

[jh45gun]

Just a note my load is the Lee 252 grain SWC and 8 grains of unique maybe a milder load would shoot better give it a try. My Barrel is a 12 inch Encore Barrel.

[BCB]

jh45gun,

Yep, a lite load of Unique did work semi-O.K. with the 45-270-SAA, but it was still a bit radical...

I suspect that by cutting the velocity back, it wouldn't smack into the riflig with as much force and maybe deform the boolit less...

But eventually, the boolit is going too slow to be considered for white-tailed deer...

The brass 9.3x74R might be the way to go, but that will be down the road. I only have less than a couple or years until retirement (if things go as planned!) and that would be the time to mess with it whole-heartedly...

Thanks...BCB

[JSH]

I never played with one of these. But, if it is like the other factory TC barrels I have had, NO two will be alike. Lloyd and 45guns barrels may be the better of a run.

[jh45gun]

Could be I bought this barrel new last summer so I have had it a year. I am very satisfied with it mostly because of the 410 application but I figure it is accurate enough with the 45 Colt that it would be fine for close range deer shooting too. While my load of 8 grains of Unique is no power house load I figure it will still kill a deer as the black powder 45 Colt loads did in the past as this load is pretty much a duplicate load power wise. Since both my barrel and Lloyds dads gun is a Encore maybe they have done something different with the barrels?

[jh45gun]

Well did a quick search the twist rate is right 1 in 16 left hand for both the Encore and the Contender barrels from what I seen so do not know why one would shoot better than an other except for the loads used. Even if one barrel would be better than an other I would not think they would be that far off???

[jh45gun]

jh45gun,

Yep, a lite load of Unique did work semi-O.K. with the 45-270-SAA, but it was still a bit radical...

I suspect that by cutting the velocity back, it wouldn't smack into the riflig with as much force and maybe deform the boolit less...

But eventually, the boolit is going too slow to be considered for white-tailed deer...

The brass 9.3x74R might be the way to go, but that will be down the road. I only have less than a couple or years until retirement (if things go as planned!) and that would be the time to mess with it whole-heartedly...

Thanks...BCB


Maybe try a lighter bullet?

[Tackleberry41]

Bit of an old thread but pretty much what I am looking for. Rossi sells a single shot for less than a contender. Lead bullets with that jump just don't fly very straight. I have been making 410 brass from 303 cases, it was pretty easy to give a little case flare and push a .451 jacketed bullet in.

I just wonder if there is a difference in how contender makes that 45/410 chamber vs Rossi. Theres a step where the colt chamber ends. And my crimped 303/410 shell won't go all the way in. Wall thickness of a 303 neck vs 45 colt pistol brass making my problem? They use a 2.5 in chamber vs longer 3 in.

[Tatume]

Hornady 9.3x74R cases are readily available and much less expensive than the European stuff.

http://www.hornady.com/store/9.3x74R-c-1098/?sort_direction=1

[Tackleberry41]

Figured it out, run them thru my 45 sizing die.

[pmer]

BFR makes that 45/410 revolver I wonder if this set up would there?

[35 shooter]

Guess i'm missing something. How do you deprime these longer cases like 444 or 9.3x74R after they've been blown out to 45 cal. for the 45/410? Just a universal de=capper?

[Tackleberry41]

I just use one of the easy to remove decapping rods from a lee die. Knock em out with a hammer sitting in a shell holder. 444 isnt so long you couldn't use a die in a press, I guess a 45-70 die might work. The 74r gonna say thats gonna be all manual. I have been tempted to get a universal decaping die, not sure if it would be long enough.

[35 shooter]

Thanks Tackleberry41, I kind of figured that's what would have to be done. I'm fixing to try this in a Bond Arms Derringer. Didn't think about the 45/70 die. I've got one of them and some 444 cases, so i'll start there.

[Tackleberry41]

As a side note, its not exactly an easy process, but a 45-70 case can be converted to work in these pistols. I went on line and well 444 marlin is out everywhere, funny as it doesn't seem to be that popular, LGS only had 3 boxes of one brand loaded in stock. 303 was out to, gets expensive buying loaded ammo for the brass.

So figured I have a pile of 45-70 so maybe mangle a few cases to see. I have one of the old lee 3 in one 45 auto dies (the sizer was just a screw on carbine ring). It would size most of the case rather easily, tho the crimp section of the die tended to size the upper end of the brass to much. Fortunately its an extra die and I have a lathe. A lathe makes easy work of the rim down to 410, also got rid of the ring at the base that couldn't be sized being solid brass. Not something I would want to make a ton of, but the longer 45-110 or 120 brass can be used, not that its cheap. I measured and you need 3in of case for the bullet to not have any free bore at all, at least in mine.

[Tackleberry41]

Powder question? With so much case capacity like the 74r, you do have to choose a bit differently. I tried Unique before in regular 45 colt shells for a converted cap and ball gun, and they were position sensitive, but it seemed such a small amount of powder in the bottom of that case. I like trail boss but its not exactly one for getting alot of velocity. I used some universal the other day, 8.8gr which is close to max for a normal pres 45 colt, with a jacketed bullet 200gr, ended up with alot of unburned powder.

I know 5744 is popular and it tends to fill a case like trail boss. Lil gun was mentioned, I have some been loading 410s with it. Blue dot also, have used it in the past. Also have power pistol on hand.

With so much extra case capacity probably run into problems like with my 577/450. Have used fiber wads to keep the powder down by in the base of the case in unique 45-70 loads. And poly fill is popular, but also can create issues as mentioned earlier in this thread.

[35 shooter]

Back when i first researched the 450 mongo if i remember right the guy that originated it was using herco. I've got it all written down somewhere so i'll try to look it up. That was in the 444 case but i remember he mentioned using 74r brass too.

[Tackleberry41]

My 9.3x74 brass came today, funny local reloading place has 9.3x62 on the shelf, not a 444 marlin to be found. Whatever they did to the later contenders in 45/410 to prevent other shells from being used might be a standard thing. Seems it has a bit more taper to it? 444marlin with a bullet is a bit stiff last 1/4" but it does chamber and close. No way a formed 74r is gonna go in.

Just use 444 marlin, accept whatever accuracy, and move on? Or ream chamber a little, maybe even a 410 cutter profile?

[35 shooter]

Evidently Taurus may have done something along those lines too because when my brother tried fireforming 444 cases in his 45/410 with Herco and cream of wheat (as per original instructions on the 450 mongo) it made a bulge at mid length on the brass? The bulge is prominent too. Still gonna try it in the derringer though.

Just my .2 cents but i would definitely try the 444 as is and see what you get before reaming anything. Also saw on another site where a guy used regular 45 colt cases and loaded a 300 grain hollow base minie ball type boolit. Unfortunately he didn't go into detail about it but said it gave good accurracy? Either Lee or Lyman has a mold for one in .454. Just a thought. As far as the 74r brass goes it sounds like trimming em back or reaming the chamber out. Might want to go with minimum colt loads with the 444 brass if it's tight to make sure it's gonna open up right to let that boolit go then up the charge if ther'es no pressure. This has all been done before i know ,but be careful cause it's still wildcattin. And i do think some changes have been made in some brands of 45/410's to guard against this very thing(liability?). Still lookin for that Herco load cause i remember that's what i read the originator of the Mongo used. At least to fire form. If i can't find it ,my brother has it and that's what he used with the 444.

[Tackleberry41]

I messed with it some today. Accuracy with 'short' 444 brass is marginal still, better but 50 yds be lucky to hit anywhere near POA. It still ends up with almost an inch of free bore. I don't have issues with the 444 brass, it is a bit thick down towards the bottom and doesn't get a bulge where the 45 chamber ends. They do slide in pretty easy, might have just been my test case the other day, come out just as easy.

I haven't given up on the 74r cases yet. I looked thru the regular machinist reamers I have, chamber reamer aint gonna do it the way they are made. I have one at .499 thats to big. I can chuck it up in the lathe and cut it down to size and resharpen, either that or $85 for one in the right size. Checked out some specs. Chamber specs on a 45 colt are .480 at the end of the case, it does have a very slight taper from .4862. While a 410 is .465 at the end. A loaded 45 colt or 74r case is .475. So maybe just luck some guns would chamber a 74r case with a bullet in it. So seems opening up the 410 part of the chamber to .475 to .480 would do the trick. Of course it would pretty much ruin it for using actual 45 colt ammo.

Tried some 5744 powder as its supposed to fill a case better. Still had a little unburned powder. But does seem to work fine.

[35 shooter]

Gotta work with my whelen this weekend. Season opens monday for me, but i'm getting some 444's ready to try.Sounds like the 74r's gonna be close to getting you where you want to be? What kind of group did you get with the 444cases? My little derringer only has 1/2 inch of rifling but untill it leads up(doesn't take long) it's actually pretty accurate with win. 250 grain rn factory loads. Can't match it with a handload so far. If the 444 or 74r works to get it where i want it, i'll be reaming or whatever else it takes and just shoot shot and boolits out of the same case. Although i would miss the buckshot 410 loads. Those 3 inch federal loads group out to 45 yards in mine.

[Tackleberry41]

They weren't very good, a good size box some reloading stuff came in with a target stuck on it. One scored the side of the box on right side low the next was 3 inches high and to the left of center. In the driveway at the house so maybe 50ft at most, so pretty bad. There was one in the center, but maybe just luck. Even the 74r is still short of the rifling, guess that would make it a 3" chamber vs 2 1/2. I will look thru my tools, I know my boring bar isn't long enough to do it that way. Not gonna buy a reamer. It works with what I have or not spending much or do something else with it.

I see track of the wolf sells a 45 barrel liner. I do have a reamer that could drill out the existing chamber and rifling to that size. Boring bar I do have will cut the shorter 45 colt chamber. Problem solved no crazy reloads I have to mess with. Not that its not a good learning to try something pretty far outside the box. Annealing cases I learned to do forming brass for my 577/450, these are way easier to mess with. Keep the 74r brass for making effective 410 shells.

[Tackleberry41]

Well it seems Rossi is really a lottery if you get a gun with a decent barrel. The 44 mag rifle I have seems fine, the 20 ga barrel that came with it another story. This 45/410 pistol barrel looks hopeless. Its not even straight to begin with, close to 3/8 in wobble at the muzzle, turning in the lathe. And nothing was cut concentric. I can ream a straight hole with the right bit, but a bit hard if everything else is way off.

So I guess use the stub to mount a new barrel with a 45 colt chamber. Wonder how an octagon barrel would look.

[35 shooter]

Hate your running into all those problems with it but if you go that route i think an octagon bbl looks good on anything. Finally got the Whelen about where i want it so now maybe i can put some time on this project.

[Tackleberry41]

Project like this, cost is generally an issue. Another issue thats come up is twist. I can get a pretty cheap octagon barrel, but tend to be slow twist muzzle loader tubes. Think I found a good priced sub gun barrel, chambered in 45 auto, but simple enough to machine off the chamber. Was even tempted to go 458 with a fast twist barrel and use the subsonic 500 gr 45-70 load I like in it.

Was messing with the 74r brass the other day. They make wonderful 410 shells so no loss. I annealed some, had a handful that messed up and already primed and hadn't annealed. Formed one to see well if it would just split. Actually formed better. Annealed ones would form down to the bottom of where I annealed to then noticeably narrow down. While the un annealed ones came out almost straight walled. Like they were made that way. But the necks did tend to come out uneven and even a little shorter. Not much but a little. 5 left over from the first box worked fine. The next batch had some split, 3 out of 20. But down at the base, below where they wouldn't even be annealed.

[Tackleberry41]

Seems the Rossi 45/410 is a dead end. Turns out it was a hopeless barrel. It was murder trying to set it up in a lathe, since nothing seemed straight to have a basis to go from. Finally got it drilled out and started tapping it. Ended up having to cut the stub off the tap when it got stuck. Either that or break the tap. I know its not me or the machine, drilled and tapped an H&R out no problem. Another Rossi rifle barrel, bought it for the stub, it did drill out and tap fairly easy. But again getting things straight with the rossi was a major headache.

Hate to throw away the mounting block, maybe see if can find somebody to weld an actually straight barrel to it. Or weld something I can drill and tap for a barrel.

[rbreit]

I recently traded for a .45/.410 barrel and found this thread. After I made a chamber cast I found the diameter at the base is about 0.482" and at the front of the chamber 0.472" with a 0.452" groove diameter. Considering the thickness of the brass, it seems a 0.452" or 0.454" bullet is out of the question. Does anyone have any ideas about opening up the front of the chamber? Hone? Lead lap? Wet or Dry paper on a split dowel? I'm trying to avoid the cost of a reamer and may just accept it as a squirrel gun with shotgun shells as I really intended anyway...

What about shot loads in .444 Brass? Any favorites?

Thanks for any ideas

[leftiye]

You could run a .453" (or slightly bigger - to your liking) chucking reamer in there - producing a straight "neck" section in the chamber. If you have any .009" thick neck brass, that should work fine with the present chamber.

[str8wal]

I just learned to accept that my 45/410 barrel is a shotgun only and moved on. I have other guns that shoot 45 Colt. Even if you get a brass case to fill the 410 chamber there are issues with powder and capacity. Not worth the time.

[N4ZX]

rbreit, I was combing through my old “favorites”posts and found this thread still being active up through January. Still some crazy people fooling with this I see. My gun is an early 1968 build with the rectangulargrip base. Accuracy with the normal 45 colt cartridge is of course terrible.This is due to the long 3-inch chamber and short and literally paper thin rifling. After subtracting the length of the chamber and the length ofremovable choke, this leaves an actual riffled barrel length of only 3.75” on my gun. With a normal 45 Long Colt I am lucky to get anything on paper at 25 yards and then most of them are keyholes. With this to start and being new to the issue I read heavily on work done several years back, by MikeP above, and put together patches of work to see what I could do. Nothing much has been published recently but those I have contacted about their past work were very helpful. My gun has the early tapered chamber such that any long case sized for 45LC and has a seated 45 bullet will jam halfway down the chamber. As a piece of work in progress hereis where I am now.

I do not wish to bore out the chamber and destroy the value of the gun,decrease the safety margin of the barrel wall thickness nor do I have the expertise to do so. Having said that I bought some Norma 9.3X74R cases and sized just the mouth 1/4” using an .429 Lee expanding die. I also had to flat file the head of the case to the point where the head stamp information was gone so the gun would close and lock properly. Apparently on my gun the head thickness of the case is greater than the head thickness of a normal 45LC case and the case would otherwise sit too high. I dropped a 405gr from Beartooth down the barrel and then a case on top of it. Measured the amount extended outof the chamber then trimmed the case back so a complete cartridge would fitwith about 1/8” clearance to the rifling. I am currently working with the Beartooth 405Gr gas check bullet for two reasons. First I believe due to the paper thin rifling I need a long bodied bullet to bite into the thin rifling. Second I can pull the gas check off and have the equivalent of a heeled bullet hat will chamber in the tapered barrel. I tried other suppliers that makes maller heeled bullets but I think the bodies are too short as the accuracy was terrible. Even the lighter GC Beartooth bullets are inaccurate so far. I made a collet crimper from a 45/70 Lee collet crimper by hacksawing open the slots to squish down the crimp to the .418 size of the gas checkless base diameter. That part does not work so good as the bullets still come out of the case after loading if I am not careful. I cannot seat the bullet as normal by pressing it into the case as the OD diameter of the bullet plus the wall thickness of the case is too large for the chamber half way down. I use standard large pistol primers, magnum or regular usually Winchester. Using 7 gr of Unique and ¼ of a toilet paper square folded twice and lightly pressed against the load, I am getting 2 to 3 inch groups from a rest at 25 yards. I found the TP was necessary for uniform combustion otherwise the barrel would be dirty and greasy after firing. Accuracy is also worse. Considering I am an old guy with arthritis in my hands and wear trifocals so this is about the best I can do anyway with a normal 45 Long Colt gun. This is a work in progress and since I no longer hunt I have no rational explanation as to why I continue doing this.Probably more than you wanted to know but if anyone has anything better actually going on I would like to know about it. Best advice overall is if you don't have a 45/410 barrel don't get one:)