Best speed for a 350 gr. in 45/70?

[stubert]

I am shooting a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70. I just bought an NOE 350 gr. gc. mold. Is there a best speed for a 350? I am thinking 1700 - 1800 fps. I will be deer hunting and poss. black bear ( if I see one) I know that to much velocity will ruin alot of meat, not to mention tenderizing the shoulder. I am using imr-3031 and am only looking for a 100 - 125 yd. load max.. I use a Williams fp on the back, and a fire sight up front. Thanks in advance, Stu

[osteodoc08]

Whatever you can handle and gives best accuracy. Velocity without accuracy means nothing. That said, mine do well around 1800 in the 350gr loads and 1600 in the 400gr loadings.

Remember you you lose some velocity with the shorter barrel and many of the test barrels are with 24" barrel length.

[Motard]

This are my takes with a chrony: 385 RNGC cast lihght load 1470 fps,
"" "" "" hot load 1738
310 Fmj FN light load 1700/1800
leverevolution 325 ftx factory rounds 1750/1800

As far as I know this caliber likes to fly slow and havvy

[missionary5155]

Greetings Stu
I do not have a Guide gun but do have a 1895 Marlin and several other 45-70 lever flippers. I do like your sight set up. That is what goes on my heavy thumpers in 336's and 1895. Sounds like a good hunt coming up. A good friend of mine lives in the NW corner of NY. Was walking home from deer hunting and 200 yards from home shot one of the largest Blackies taken in NY. All he had was a lowly 270 with 130 grainers. Bear died right there. Shot placement did the trick. But I still rib him about hunting with a "little girl's" rifle.

Boolit... Is this a nice large flat nose or a round nose ? I would flat nose a RN boolit or drill it HP.
Deer: anything over 1400 fps with a 350 grainer is going to coast through unless you take shots through the grill doors. I would also recommend using 50-50 with a dash of tin as most shots taken on deer are some where through the chest.

Bear : I would cast with WW and 2 % tin and go for about 1750 fps. Accuracy being the real control on speed. What are the real possibilities of seeing a bear ? Would there be time to slip one of these harder one's into the chamber ? Is popping a bear of higher priority ? If that last question is yes then load for bear and slay them corn crunchers with the bear busters. A FN 350 is going to drop a deer at any speed you hit it with. A bear you want as much "thwap" on that chest or shoulder as you can accurately shoot.

On tanks we loaded the main gun for the biggest meanest nasty target we might see. Anything less was just dead meat and we could always load a lesser second round for the finish shot or follow ups. That is how I would hunt if a bear was a real possibility and I was serious about a bear. Never under gun yourself when you can have the best in the tube and ready.
Mike in Peru

[JesterGrin_1]

As said many times the 45-70 Government moving out around 1300 FPS almost wiped out the Buffalo.

So in reality pick your powder and start at the bottom and work up till you like the accuracy and how it feels to you. Do not worry about speed as the bullet will do what needs done without a problem.

I use the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC in my JM Marlin 1895 GS 45-70 Government and it is one fine shooting and hunting boolit.

[NSB]

As said many times the 45-70 Government moving out around 1300 FPS almost wiped out the Buffalo.

So in reality pick your powder and start at the bottom and work up till you like the accuracy and how it feels to you. Do not worry about speed as the bullet will do what needs done without a problem.

I use the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC in my JM Marlin 1895 GS 45-70 Government and it is one fine shooting and hunting boolit.


I couldn't have said it any better.

[stubert]

That is the same mold I got from NOE, execpt I do not have the tl design, I have regular grease grooves. What is your load?

[JesterGrin_1]

That is the same mold I got from NOE, execpt I do not have the tl design, I have regular grease grooves. What is your load?

I am sorry but I have not used IMR-3031 in my 45-70 Government. The powder that is probably best used for the higher end loads according to Ranch Dog is H-322. And to be honest the loads I came up with were probably moving around 1900 FPS or so. Of which are a slobber knocker at the bench but I did not have excessive meat damage with that load on either Deer or Hog and I have taken hog with that load from a 10 or so pounder at 100 yards to a 350Lb Hog. But it all depends on how hard your boolits are.

I am currently going to try the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC sized as recommended by Ranch Dog at .460 with 15.0Gr of Unique as it is a fun load and I believe will be good enough for hunting our small TEXAS Deer and Hog at a reasonable distance.

If you go to Ranch Dog Outdoors he still has his load information up on all of his boolit designs. So I would recommend to go to that web site and look up the powder you wish to try and reduce the powder charge by 10% or whatever is listed for reduction for a particular powder and start there. All of Ranch Dogs loads listed on his web site were taken from a Marlin for a particular round and his boolit designs and pressure tested with correct equipment. So I do not think you can beat the information he has listed for a Marlin. :)

Go Here :) http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC460360RF/data/loadnotes01.pdf

[T-Bird]

I'm with Jester, black powder velocity 45/70 load is good. I load my 1895 to 1375ish fps with the 330 Gould and take it when shots won't exceed 100yds. It sails thru every deer I've shot. Don't know about bear. I also have an RCBS (I think ) 350 gr flat nosed mould that I used to use at the same speed, but went with the HP Gould to try and get a better blood trail, though I never lost a deer and none ever ran far.Some of the places I hunt, once the deer runs 20 yds., you can't see them anymore. The only reason in my opinion to speed up the boolit is to flatten the trajectory. But at 100 yds, just sight the gun to this distance and you're good. 1375 fps is much easier on the shoulder, which means more practice shots. These big boolits will penetrate! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[TXGunNut]

I've had very good luck with that boolit and rifle on deer and hogs. I run it around 1700-1800 as you plan to do so I think you're right on target. IMHO the RD boolits like to go fast and in keeping my missionary friend's thinking I want to be able to hammer the biggest hog that will cross my path...and luckily some nice big ones do just that from time to time. ;-) It doesn't waste any venison when that boolit @ around 1700 hits a little S TX deer. I don't waste much time tracking it, either.

[JesterGrin_1]

I don't waste much time tracking it, either.

Come on now tracking what tracking lol. I have never seen anyone mention tracking when the bullet hits the deer and they flop over lol.

[Ramjet-SS]

In my Encore rifle 45-70 I use a 330 Grain WFN GC and love the performance and accuracy of the that bullet loaded over 14.5 Grains of Unique. A the next best load that rifle likes is 26.0 grains of IMR4227. Each of those loads I use poly fiber over the powder. Sure I could load heavier but why do that when these loads have and are proven to take deer with regularity. Plus they are easy on me. If I was going after elk or moose then I would run that load of IMR4227 up to 30.0 grains.

[TXGunNut]

Come on now tracking what tracking lol. I have never seen anyone mention tracking when the bullet hits the deer and they flop over lol.


Have only had to track one critter shot with a 45-70; doe went into heavy brush, quit bleeding, took a hard left turn and died facing the other direction under a bush. Went thru a few flashlight batteries finding her! Never seen a deer act like that. Most are DRT with little meat damage.

[EOD3]

For a dear/black bear at 125 yards you don't need much velocity to get the job done. Work up a good accuracy load in the 14-16 hundred feet per second and go for the gold. A lung shot on a deer with a 350 grain bullet at anything like a thousand feet per second will whistle right on through. Unless the bear is a monster, it won't stand-up to a correctly placed bullet either. A little extra velocity for a comfort factor and you're on your way. Just my .02

[JesterGrin_1]

Have only had to track one critter shot with a 45-70; doe went into heavy brush, quit bleeding, took a hard left turn and died facing the other direction under a bush. Went thru a few flashlight batteries finding her! Never seen a deer act like that. Most are DRT with little meat damage.

Ok well as mentioned I have had one as well with the 45-70 but it was my fault as the boolits I used were so hard they could have been solid brass lol. They were made of Pure Lino with some added tin from some solder and water dropped in ice water lol. Yep I had ice in there lol. So of course the boolit just made a perfect .458 hole all the way through. And of course no blood shot meat lol.

[EOD3]

Dang Jester, you weren't making boolets, you was making anvils...:bigsmyl2:

[JesterGrin_1]

Dang Jester, you weren't making boolets, you was making anvils...:bigsmyl2:


Yes I know I think they were just a little to hard lol. But I did not know better at the time.

[Rick Hodges]

I have a MM mold that is similar to the Ranch Dog in profile. It weighs 385 gr. 15 BHN w/ gc. I start them at 1700 fps with H322. They give me a 150yd. point blank range with the Guide Gun. It is a decisive load in the guide gun...on both ends.

[Canuck Bob]

I carried a 444 for decades in griz country and shot from rabbit to moose. I liked the 265 gr Hornady FN and when I changed out to cast I went with a 285 grain. I never felt undergunned. I would consider anything above 1600 fps big game thump with a .45 350 grainer in your neck of the woods. If a rutting bull or mama griz was a possibility I'd crank it to 1800+ maybe. The lowly 303 Brit has dropped train loads of big blackies and moose up here.

It still amazes me when we have these talks and a 265 grain bullet at 2200 fps is considered light! Us big bore advocates sure like our bullets fat and heavy and I'm at the small end of that group. Comes from the firm knowledge that they work best that way!!! Your new combo will treat you right, nice choice on sighting as well.

[Clay M]

If you are going to hunt deer and black bear using 3031, just make it easy on yourself and the gun. Load down around 1400 fps. I used 42 grs of 3031 and a 400 gr bullet in a Sharps for years.

[flashhole]

Your lead will have to be pretty hard to get 1700-1800 fps in a short barreled Guide Gun. Leading may be a serious issue at those velocities.

I push a jacketed 350 grain bullet about as hard as can be pushed in the Guide Gun and get 1960 fps. With my range compensated scope I can stretch it out to 200 yards.

My cast bullets are 340 grains. The low end Varget and H-4895 loads shoot really well but my range is limited to about 100 yards.

The bullet you intend to use will give good performance on whatever you shoot. I would be more concerned about leading and a loss of accuracy when stepping up velocity.

[tdoyka]

i have a h&r handi-rifle in 45-70, i use 405gr fbfn over a charge of h4198(35.0gr). it goes roughly 1400fps. it will kill a deer or black bear. i am going to get a 350gr ranch dog and i think(oh c#@p, there i go thinkin again) it will go 1600-1800fps and kill a deer and black bear. but like clay m says, load it down. and it will "make it easy on yourself and the gun."

[GooseGestapo]

Try 25.0gr of #2400 for ~1,300 fps or 43.0gr H4198 for ~1,650 fps. I'm using a RCBS 300gr mold that casts to 320gr. Sized to .459" and lubed with SPG. My favorite load of late is 30.0gr of 2400. Also gets 1,650 fps. I recently put a Leupold 1.5-5x VX3 on it. Getting 2" groups at 100yds.
Its "enough"gun...

[Shooter6br]

H322 can do 1800fps with GC 350 grainer . Ranchdog data

[JesterGrin_1]

H322 can do 1800fps with GC 350 grainer . Ranchdog data

And be very scary accurate as well with the Ranch Dog 460-350Gr RNFP/GC :)

[Hickory]

I like to hear shooters praise the 45-70.
The 45-70 is by far the most useful big game cartridge out there. This cartridge has stood the test of time for good reason, it's just a great round.
A 350 gr. boolit at 1300 fps. will serve 95% of your needs in North America and do it without beating yourself up in the process.
The 45-70 is one of those special rounds that can do it all and be loaded from mild to wild. Or as a friend of mine referes to it, "The sledgehammer of death."
As some have suggested, start out with low velocity, and stop when you get an accurate load.

[flashhole]

The sledgehammer of death .... I like that.

[altheating]

Shot my Ruger #1 the last couple of days, NOE 350 at 1300 fps with H4198. Several 100 yard groups under 1". It's not to tough on my shoulder, you know that you touch it off but not bad for a 45/70. I just had shoulder surgery 7 months ago and it's not really punishing. I would not be afraid to shoot any game I'm going to be hunting with that load. I had to laugh yesterday, while shooting the back stop was water logged as a result of about 6" of rain and every time I shot the spray of mud that was thrown up when that big flat nose boolit hit the berm was impressive. Several people asked what I was shooting when they saw the mud fly.

[utahtrapper]

54 grains of H322 out of a 1895GS just shy of 2100 fps. Took a nice Miley Buck 350 grain Pile Driver Lite by Beartooth Bullets BHN. 21 you can eat up to the hole also 1 inch groups at 100yds

[JesterGrin_1]

54 grains of H322 out of a 1895GS just shy of 2100 fps. Took a nice Miley Buck 350 grain Pile Driver Lite by Beartooth Bullets BHN. 21 you can eat up to the hole also 1 inch groups at 100yds

For higher end loads I do not think there is a better powder out there for the 45-70 Government in a Marlin or Ruger No.1 than H-322. But then again I have said this many times. :)

[flashhole]

Please elaborate on why H-322 is so great for the 45-70.

[JesterGrin_1]

It offers a pretty clean burn and most of all H-322 can provide excellent accuracy with both Jacketed and Cast Boolits. Ranch Dog did pretty extensive testing with many powders for his boolit designs and above all of them he recommended the use of H-322 and he was right. He did state that Benchmark was close.

But again I would lean towards using H-322 for higher end loads in the 45-70 Government. This is the load I came up with for my JM Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 Government. 52.0 Gr of H-322 in a Remington case and a Fed LRP along with of course the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC sized .460 of which with a 3x9 scope would give me under 3/4" groups at 100 yards. But be aware that in my humble opinion this load is a slobberknocker off of a bench.

[Hickok]

The only problem I have with my 1895 Marlin 45/70 is as the velocity of 350-400 grain bullets goes up, "the misery starts to overcome the joy."

[flashhole]

Jester - Thanks for the explanation. If the criteria is good groups for what constitutes the best powder I offer that that there are many. I like H-4895 for excellent efficiency and excellent accuracy. If the criteria is - I worked with this powder a lot. Meh, that hardly qualifies H322 as the panacea for powder selection. Ranchdog has done a lot of good work and he is very generous about sharing his findings but that data is not gospel. Good on you for stating it is your opinion. My opinion is different.

[JesterGrin_1]

Jester - Thanks for the explanation. If the criteria is good groups for what constitutes the best powder I offer that that there are many. I like H-4895 for excellent efficiency and excellent accuracy. If the criteria is - I worked with this powder a lot. Meh, that hardly qualifies H322 as the panacea for powder selection. Ranchdog has done a lot of good work and he is very generous about sharing his findings but that data is not gospel. Good on you for stating it is your opinion. My opinion is different.


And there is not a thing wrong with your opinion. If what you use makes you happy then by all means have fun with it. And it also goes to show that the old 45-70 Government cartridge can use many powders available to us with good effect.

I just felt that after using H-322 with the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC and being able to obtain better than 3/4" groups at 100 yards as well as with the Hornady 350Gr RN then I saw no need to mess with other powders for the higher end loads.

But I will also say that because of the recoil I no longer have a 3x9 conventional scope mount due to blood taken at both ends Hog hunting one night lol. I now use a 2x7 scout scope set up. I also for grins have loaded up some of the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC with some Unique of which after a little further sight in I plan to use it for Deer and Hog sometime this year.

[Ramjet-SS]

And there is not a thing wrong with your opinion. If what you use makes you happy then by all means have fun with it. And it also goes to show that the old 45-70 Government cartridge can use many powders available to us with good effect.

I just felt that after using H-322 with the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC and being able to obtain better than 3/4" groups at 100 yards as well as with the Hornady 350Gr RN then I saw no need to mess with other powders for the higher end loads.

But I will also say that because of the recoil I no longer have a 3x9 conventional scope mount due to blood taken at both ends Hog hunting one night lol. I now use a 2x7 scout scope set up. I also for grins have loaded up some of the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC with some Unique of which after a little further sight in I plan to use it for Deer and Hog sometime this year.

Two things you mention here are near and dear to my heart one Scout Scopes Imlove using them and think they are really effective for hunting. Quick target acquisition with out the need for trying to line up or focus on a rear and front sight.

Unique I have had great success with Unique and cast bullet loads in a variety of guns.

[FergusonTO35]

Shot my Ruger #1 the last couple of days, NOE 350 at 1300 fps with H4198. Several 100 yard groups under 1". It's not to tough on my shoulder, you know that you touch it off but not bad for a 45/70. I just had shoulder surgery 7 months ago and it's not really punishing. I would not be afraid to shoot any game I'm going to be hunting with that load. I had to laugh yesterday, while shooting the back stop was water logged as a result of about 6" of rain and every time I shot the spray of mud that was thrown up when that big flat nose boolit hit the berm was impressive. Several people asked what I was shooting when they saw the mud fly.


That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for with the Lee 340 in my 1895. So 31 grains is the charge?

[Tailhunter]

I shoot that noe 350gr bullet out of a Marlin GG around 1725 with great accuracy.

[flashhole]

That sounds like exactly what I'm looking for with the Lee 340 in my 1895. So 31 grains is the charge?

You mean like these? They will make you smile.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/GuideGun/bullets_zpswlfqsauc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/GuideGun/media/bullets_zpswlfqsauc.jpg.html)

[Motard]

I am fairly new to levergun and to cast boolit. But I have some experience with reloading and various Bolt-action. Yesterday I brought at the range my first batch of casted with 430 gr lyman charged before 37 gr oh Viht N 130. Apart the one on the right that was a jacketed the three boolits performed with consistency. Good consistency. And low speed about 1360 fps
149675149676

[flashhole]

Where is the "Like" button?

[JesterGrin_1]

Where is the "Like" button?

As far as I know there has never been a Like Button lol.

[flashhole]

just saying - motard's post would have gotten a like if we had a "like" button.

[Motard]

I apreciate Your's appreciation :-)

[Motard]

Whent at the range this afternoon for testing my first batch of boolits. 430 gr per lyman single cavity Don Shay design. The mould is suppose to drop 400 but with my alloy they come out havvyer. I dip lube per Recluse formula and registered 1510 average speed. No leading at all. And good consistency.had twice bullett in same hole. But at only 50 mt.

[Hickok]

Just have to say my Marlin 1895 45/70 Ballard rifling, is amazingly accurate. It thinks it is a bolt action rifle!

[Clay M]

I am currently using the Saeco #017 350gr GC bullet with 43 gr of Rel 7 which is the accuracy load listed in the Lyman Cast bullets book.
In my Ruger #1 the accuracy is great..at 100yds
The load is recommended for the Marlin and win 86 as well.

The speed is listed around 1700fps, and the recoil is tolerable..
I am using Carnauba Red lube, and I get no leading..

[Tailhunter]

I was using that load but backed it down to 38 grains pushing it around 1650. The harder recoil was a little much for my messed up shoulder and found the accuracy to be superb. I am pc'ing my bullets.

[smkummer]

Lyman water dropped 457192 350 grain (45-75 Win. design) in my Marlin 1895 cross bolt safety 22" with ballard rifling, pistol grip and 1/2 mag.. 14.6 grs. unique and 1300 FPS. Very comfortable and cheap to shoot, plus I am hitting both a 16" (all the time)and 10" (almost all the time) steel plate at 200 yards. I am sure this would go clean through a deer past 100 yards and one would hear it hit with a thump. Isn't that enough?

[Blackwater]

Every gun is a law unto its own self, and what shoots in one isn't necessarily the best in all. My experience has been that all the powders I've ever used, which have been 2400, H-4198, 3031 and H-322 all worked very, very well, with all producing near MOA in my Mag-na-Ported Marlin Guide Gun. As to what's the best speed, IMO, that's only answered when you find a load that shoots best in YOUR gun. Whatever that powder is, use that, and don't worry if the velocity is 1300 fps. or more, except don't use a load whose recoil is too heavy for you to shoot well, and we ALL have some limit with that. Wherever yours is, just go with that or below, and wherever you get your best accuracy. Learn deer anatomy (easy with all the cutaway drawings on the 'net) and shoot sharp, and your load really won't matter all that much. A bullet with a good sized flat is probably a bit quicker killer. As a friend of mine once said, "You can load it with jacketed or cast, ash trays or feather pillows and it'll STILL kill whatever needs killin'." That really pretty well sums it up, but again, the only caveat is that you've got to PLACE those bullets where they'll do the most good. Do that, and you'll be eating venison, or most any other kind of meat you're after. That's my 2 cents' worth, anyway.

[44 flattop]

If you are going to hunt deer and black bear using 3031, just make it easy on yourself and the gun. Load down around 1400 fps. I used 42 grs of 3031 and a 400 gr bullet in a Sharps for years.
Pretty close to my load! For 20 years I've used 42gr of 3031 behind the RCBS405, which weighs 420 out of my mold. From my 26" 1886, I get 1512fps and with open sights, can cover a 3 shot group at 75 yards with a nickel. As yet, I've not seen a bull elk that can stop this bullet, having had an exit wound every time.

[Frank V]

For several years I've used a trapdoor load of IMR3031 & a 400gr lead bullet. I've chronographed it at 1088, it's very accurate, fun to shoot, little recoil, but does leave some unburned powder in the bore. The unburned powder hasn't been a problem & it's accurate enough & fun enough to not worry about a bit of unburned powder.

[longrifle]

I shoot the marlin 45/70 gbl, with the ranch dog 460 350 grn tbl, with 43 grains of reloader 7 1550 fps at 800 feet above sea level, and 1780 at 9000 feet. I've killed 3 white tail deer and one cow elk all shots under 100 yards iron sights. this gun and load will put meat in the freezer. accuracy is unbelievable.

[Frank V]

I shoot the marlin 45/70 gbl, with the ranch dog 460 350 grn tbl, with 43 grains of reloader 7 1550 fps at 800 feet above sea level, and 1780 at 9000 feet. I've killed 3 white tail deer and one cow elk all shots under 100 yards iron sights. this gun and load will put meat in the freezer. accuracy is unbelievable.

longrifle,
That sounds like a nice load. I like RL7 myself, Results are what count & if it's working for you use it.
Someone said not all rifles like the same load & we do have to find what our individual rifle likes.
Stay below your recoil tollerance, shoot well, proper shot placement is vital, & collect game!:p

[mikeyman]

Bit of a necro post just wanted to say I have also been liking RL7. 46 gr with the Rd 350 in my 26in barrel CB gives me just under 2000fps with best 3 shot group .8 inches. It is stout on the shoulder though.

[TXGunNut]

Bit of a necro post just wanted to say I have also been liking RL7. 46 gr with the Rd 350 in my 26in barrel CB gives me just under 2000fps with best 3 shot group .8 inches. It is stout on the shoulder though.


Sounds familiar. :bigsmyl2:

[Frank V]

I'll bet a 350gr bullet at almost 2,000 would be interesting to shoot. What it hit would likely find that's enough?

[ghh3rd]

I tried a few loads for my 45-70 with 405 gr and 425 gr boolits, but when I tried the Ranch Dog 350gr TL boolit over 43 gr. of IMR-4198 sized at .460 I had the best accuracy yet from my Marlin 1895. I didn't chrony it, but was told it should be about 1800+ fps.

Oh yeah, boolits dipped in Felix lube.

Randy

[TXGunNut]

I'll bet a 350gr bullet at almost 2,000 would be interesting to shoot. What it hit would likely find that's enough?


So far, so good. ;-)

[Frank V]

So far, so good. ;-)



Good going.

[TXGunNut]

The Marlin is stout enough for loads exceeding the RD 350 @ 2000fps but quite honestly I can't find a use for it here in TX. At this level it's a bit of a beating shooting on a bench and even with good eye relief the scope eyepiece gets too close to my eyeglasses. I was looking for a load around 1800 but this combination of boolit and powder seems very happy at this velocity.

[mikeyman]

I hope to see what that bullet/speed will bo to a large Island black bear in April.

[TXGunNut]

I hope to see what that bullet/speed will bo to a large Island black bear in April.


Looking forward to hearing the results.

[Frank V]

Mikeyman

I'll bet it'll work,:-P let us know!