Too many shortcuts???

[Blackwater]

As this site has grown, it has seemed to me, as one of the long time participants here, that I'm seeing a definite tendency for most of the newcomers tending to want to shortcut in many places where I have personal apprehensions about their being taken. There's a thread on case lubes in the Bullet Lube section, for instance that inquires about case lube. Some, it seems, don't clean the case sizing lube off after sizing. And one in the Handguns section where a fellow blew up a pistol, and wanted to know why.

I know I'm a sometimes crotchety old timer, but I've learned through experience, some of it pretty darned bitter, that there are REASONS why we do things the "right" way rather than always seeking shortcuts. For instance, leaving sizing lube on the cases and then shooting the ammo loaded thusly increases bolt thrust on the gun by a very large amount, and thus, increases "wear and tear" on our guns. This won't show very quickly, what with our guns being significantly to hugely "overbuilt" these days, but it WILL, sooner or later. It just can't NOT happen! Think about it. It's really a no-brainer if we just think, rather than just "assuming."

I had the experience once of blowing up a Ruger Super Blackhawk. You REALLY have to make a BIG mistake to blow one of these massively strong revolvers. I'd been loading a long time and had a VERY large amount of quality ammo behind me when I did this. But I STILL managed to blow up that fine gun ANYWAY. The story's in the Handguns section if you want the details. I still cringe whenever I think about what I did, and how it came to pass. I knew better. I just didn't DO better.

There are two good and easy ways to blow up a gun with automatics. Since they shove the rounds from the magazines into the feed ramp and then into the chamber of the barrel, there's a significant opportunity to have the bullet shoved back into the case if the bullet's not a very tight fit in the case. A taper crimp, pressing the case mouth slightly into the bullet's sides also helps provide a mechanical ridge to push against, thus reducing the ability of the bullet to being shoved back into the case during feeding. It doesn't matter if a round looks "alright" as you hold it in your hands, or slide it under the magazine's feed lips. If the bullet isn't held tightly, and has at least a light taper crimp into the sides of the bullet, then you're sooner or later going to have significant problems. Sometimes, if the compression of the air space doesn't create blowup pressures, you'll get a cracked frame, so you don't HAVE to blow it up to severely damage or weaken the gun for LATER additional problems.

There's really no other way to ENSURE your ammo is actually "good to go" than to pay attention as you load, and if a particular case lets the bullet seat a little "too easily," jerk that round and trash that particular case, or put it in a scrap can for "last ditch" use only. Keep it OUT of your gun! Crimping as a separate and last step with auto rounds also helps, plus it prevents shaving up a tiny little circle of lead in front of the case mouth, which sooner or later (usually sooner) firmly attaches itself to the front of the chamber, thus shortening the chamber. When enough of such rounds are fired, the gun won't close fully and seat the loaded rounds, thus rather handily stopping the joy on your outing to shoot the ammo up. Not good!

Another sourse of problems is the drop tube on our powder measures. Most generally come with two nozzles - a .22 cal. and a .30 cal. Many just install the .22 cal. nozzle and never change it out, even though it takes only a bare few seconds to do that. This means problems when you're using larger grained powders, which are pretty common when you're loading magnums and mid-level performers for top end power levels. What happens is that if you keep the little .22 cal. nozzle in, you're trying to make big granules go through a pretty small hole, and sooner or later, you're going to get powder bridging - the state where the big granules "bridge" across the small hole, and keep all the powder from droppiing. It's out of the measuring chamber of the measure, but NOT out of the nozzle, so the next charge you dump CAN, and often is, an overcharge - the regular charge from the measuring chamber PLUS the stuff in the nozzle that bridged and then dropped only after the 2nd charge hit it and broke it loose. This can and has blown up guns in the past, and there's nothing special about your or my guns that makes them immune from little things like this.

In short, I just felt it in order to make some sort of post giving the newbies or those in too big a hurry to do things "right" so at least they'll have been exposed to the REASONS why we old timers, especially those of us who've made mistakes that cost us in the past, do things the way we do them. I still use an old non-compound leverage RCBS Reloader Special press, and I have had and sold or given away at least 4 Rock Chuckers. I just like the way the old non-compound leverage gives me MUCH more "feedback" on what I'm doing. If I'm not lubing my cases just right, they'll require heavy pressure on the handle,and cause more wear on the press itself, thus loosening it up and making accurate ammo harder to produce.

BUT I'M FAR FROM SLOW IN MY LOADING WITH IT. I've just learned how to do things efficiently with what I've chosen to use, and I've shot many, many tousands of rounds using my old "second rate" press, and sold off all the "first run" stuff because I simply prefer the additional feedback my old RS press gives me. I've had only two stuck cases in all my 50 years of reloading, and those were when I switched case sizing lube to one that wasn't compatible with what my dies had been coated with. That's not a record that's easily matched, though many have, I'm sure. All it takes is not being in TOO big a hurry, and paying attention to what we're doing, and knowing what each anomaly MEANS when we encounter it, and simply taking note of any anomalies and THINKING our way through the process, instead of "assuming" of "following rules."

In our beloved hobby, it ALL really CAN make a difference, and can even cost us a fine gun, a limb, or even a life. We don't like thinking about that much, but it's not going to go away just because we don't LIKE thinking about it. It's always there, lurking, just waiting for us to make one foolish, even if understandable, mistake.

So if you're conditioned to doing everything in a hurry, take it from someone who was just lucky MY mistake didn't cost me more than just a fine gun, and TAKE RELOADING SERIOUSLY, and don't press your luck too far. It may come back to haunt you! Or worse! No need to be paranoid. Just don't be "lazy" or too "assumptive" and just use yer ol' bean for something besides a hat rack, and much joy ensues. Get too assumptive, or too lacadasical, and the joy may disappear ... at best.

Just a FWIW, and many here don't need this, and already know it, or have learned the hard way like I obviously did. But for some of you newer "young lions," at least now you've been told. Disregard these simple and very basic principles at your OWN risk. I'm satisfied that I've done the right thing with this post. The rest is up to you.

[williamwaco]

+1.
Shortcuts bad idea.

[wddodge]

Well said!!

Denny

[sparky45]

Totally agree with OP, and I'll add, it's a very good reminder.

[gwpercle]

You BLEW up a Ruger Blackhawk......WOW!
And I'm in total agreement with you.....just got side tracked by the Ruger blow-up thing !
Gary

[dudel]

Should be a must read before the first round is loaded. Too many questions like: What's the best load for ? Many people don't want to hear that it depends. Others who don't want to think that a max load number is simply created out of thin air by lawyers.

This is important, because none of us want to be at the range next to someone who doesn't load carefully and knowledgeably.

[Blackwater]

Yes. I did. And it WAS a rather humbling experience to say the least. I just got to thinking that sheer will power could overcome wanting/needing to reload when I should have gone to bed, and THAT little bit of hubris cost me a really good gun, and I was lucky that was ALL it cost me. So I'm speaking from highly regrettable experience here, and NOT casting any aspersions, lest it be on my own self with this post. It's hard not to notice all the "hurry up" techniques that are voiced here, and I can't help but look back at my own experience and sympathize, empathize, and - at least in my own case - just sit and smile at the things I've gotten away with without injury. I've been loading for 53 years now, and reading and learning all I could from every source available, and STILL I'm tempted sometimes to take a shortcut that I really know I probably shouldn't. Never had any problems except that blowup and two stuck cases, but that's mostly because I learned early on to respect what we do, and its potential for very bad results. I don't see this in some posters here, though it's not always clear by any means, and it's seemed to me that something like this might help someone avoid the problems attendant to trying to speed things up TOO much by leaving out crucial steps. At the very least, it'll produce problems at the range, or less than the kind of results we all want, and really NEED if we're to become the kind of pistoleros we all WANT to become. In our pursuit, a little thinking and consideration really CAN go an awful long way, and the current trend is for all of us to be or get into too much of a hurry, and to skip things that we THINK we can "get away with," but that always, sooner or later, come back to haunt us. It's one reason I just don't shoot anyone's reloads except one buddy who I trust as much as I do myself. Even then, I always tend to try to arrange my limbs so that IF something happened, it would be minimally costly. Blowing up a SB will DO that to a guy!

[Schrag4]

I'm relatively new to reloading, only been doing it for about 3 years now. Having just recently started, I still understand that what's hard for someone new to get a handle on is what stuff is important and what stuff is not. To anyone giving advice about how you do something, please include the "why" as well. It seems common sense to you, but the newbie isn't going to automatically understand that you do step A because you like how the brass looks and you do step B because if you don't then you could lose your fingers. Yes, newbies should read about all that before they start, but everyone doesn't get to the same level of understanding before they decide to give something a try. I stewed on reloading for a couple of years before I decided to try my hand at it, lurking on sites like this one, but I know a lot of people are more...gung-ho about trying new things.

To the newbies - don't be afraid to ask what may be considered stupid questions. If the advice given doesn't include the "why," ask followup questions. More likely than not you will begin a lively discussion between several seasoned reloaders who aren't in total agreement, and that's when you REALLY start to learn about topics you didn't even know existed when you asked your original question.

[mdi]

Preach Brother! :bigsmyl2:. Thank you. I believe a lot of the wanting a faster/easier way to do things comes from the "Instant Generation". Instant info., available at the stroke of a key has it's good points, but results in a lack of thinking. No reason to T.I.T. (think it through), just go to yer computer for answers to anything, right now, in milliseconds...

I started reloading pre-web and had to do a lot of time consuming (?) reading and research. No forums to question about the very basics of reloading. I made some mistakes, but 30 years later I remember those mistakes and don't have to go look in my computer's "favorites/bookmarks" file...

[Blackwater]

Excellent point, Schrag4. I get panned sometimes because my posts can get long at times, but it's the "Why?" that's really the important part, and that's the part that's all too often left out. You newer guys need to ask us memory aflicted old timers that question more often. It keeps us honest, and might help you or someone else avoid the kind of thing I experienced. NONE of us, new or old, is infallible! Don't cease asking "Why?" because if you don't understand that part, you'll likely think something that's important, really isn't, and we old timers need to take heart about that when we post as well. "Why?" is the question that leads us to understanding, and without really understanding, we CAN get in trouble in this pursuit. I was always asking that question from the old mentors who taught me, and who I thought had the answer to everything in the world back then. One old gunsmith, in particular, used to thoroughly enjoy it when he'd take me outside and let me shoot his BHk .45, or his little Qwik-Sited Ruger Std. auto .22, and I was always asking him "Why ... this or that." He liked that most of the time, and always took the time to explain. I'll never forget that great old man. He was a real jewel in my life.

So if we old pharts forget to list why, ask. Don't EVER be afraid to ask "Why." If someone is offended by that, it's THEIR fault, not yours!

[nagantguy]

Thank you Blackwater; for sharing your thoughts and experience with us. We all need the reminder. And you did it in style without name calling or finger pointing, just no nonsense truth. I've stuck a few cases, all of them 7mm Weatherby mag, after the third one in a row that new space age case lube I just had to have to save time went in the trash , also I've not charged two cases in my loading career, both times on "hurry and get this batch done" type loading, a stuck pistol round isn't even close to the worst thing that could have happened. Take your time, and I tell anyone who will listen, write everything down, label everything cause you will forget what's what. Again thank you sir.

[Yodogsandman]

Excellent post! Hope it gets read by someone new that needs it. I see a tendency for some to just start new powder charges any where they want to try, without any regard.

[murf205]

Blackwater, you know, hubris is a strange thing. As I was reading your post and particularly where you admitted to the fact, I realized that I, too, could have an abundance of hubris-even if only I only keep it to myself! I have loaded lot of ammo since 1961 and sometimes we old timers(or very experienced as we prefer to call it) forget some of the steps that make better and safer ammo, or do we just get busy and "take shortcuts" because we know our stuff(hubris). Thanks for a sobering reminder that maybe I(we) are not the cats meow when it comes to the loading bench every time we approach it.

[Kraschenbirn]

Being something of an 'old-timer' myself, I can honestly say, when it comes to 'shortcuts', I've probably tried most all of them at one time or another but, for quality ammo, I load just about the same way I was taught by my first rifle team coach back around 1960. Sure, my equipment, powders, and components are better but my techniques are pretty much the same. In other words, "If it ain't broke...don't try to fix it."

Bill

[rsrocket1]

U r 2 tru!

Jk, +1

73

[therealhitman]

As this site has grown, it has seemed to me...that I'm seeing a definite tendency for most of the newcomers tending to want to shortcut in many places...

The main question I hear from people looking for advice/instruction about ANYTHING that requires skill, patience and experience has become "isn't there an app I can download for that?".
It is beyond maddening. I hear Nero's violin as I type this.

[SeabeeMan]

I completely agree. I'm probably on the fairly young end of our membership but I've been reloading since I was strong enough to pull the handle to load the 22 Savage High Power my dad would let me shoot. Every time I start thinking about expanding my LNL-AP with feeders and sensors, I remind myself that it is going to be my kids shooting these reloads someday, so I don't need to go any faster. Gunny used to scream "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" and that applies to reloading. If you want to get faster, get comfortable and consistent with your reloading. Don't skip steps, always double check things, and never hesitate to pull a round and measure everything.

To this end, I've developed a few habits and quit using some pieces of equipment because I didn't like the tendencies they were setting up. One is the Hornady micrometer seating dies powder measure inserts. While a great concept, I never quite trusted their (or my) ability to dial back into an exact setting based on my notes. I could see me dropping in dies with LNL adapters, confirming the micrometer readings, and loading up 100 rounds that weren't exactly what I thought they were. They are now gathering rust in a box somewhere.

I've also gotten in the habit of removing the LNL die adapters from my dies to avoid the same thing. It's probably overkill but I like the process of setting up from scratch each time.

[Blackwater]

No offense meant towards any newbies or casual loaders at all. Just trying to bring reality into the mix. For many years, I too was cramped pretty badly for time, and thus, I tried many shortcuts. None of them worked, and I abandoned them for just learning how to make good time while doing things the "right" way, by which, I mean the effective and safe way - the way that proved very accurate and reliable. Since I sometimes carried my reloads in my duty gun, I just didn't feel comfortable short-changing my ammo production. And it got to be VERY satisfying to see the results of my loads. My bullets I cast were probably the weakest link, but even they were pretty good, and they certainly shot well enough that I was satisfied with them.

Just thought it'd be a good idea to mention this, what with our seeing so many posters trying to shortcut some pretty consequential steps in our beloved pursuit.

[Elkins45]

There are some very experience reloaders who occasionally venture into uncharted territory, but they do it prudently and based on years of experience. Those aren't shortcuts, those are calculated risks.

The difference is that those people know the right way, why it's the right way, and why/how they are deviating from it. A lot of those people Blackwater are talking about who are looking for shortcuts don't even recognize the difference between a shortcut and the right way, which makes them doubly risky. This is a good reminder to anyone mentoring new reloaders that they need to understand WHY we do something and not just memorize a list of steps.

[Love Life]

Good post, but it's more entertaining to let Darwin do his thing.

[Blackwater]

Love Life, I nearly spewed my water on the screen at your post! [smilie=l: I know the feeling. For a few years now, I've been trying to help a young lion that's my son's age, 44. Certainly old enough to know better, but so soaked in "modern thinking" and "style" and so dang busy that he just ASSUMES things that he has no reason or right to, and this tends to cause him problems. When he got an AR-10, I explained to him how he had to be more careful about resizing, and how not lubing the inside of case necks will often pull the shoulder forward on some cases, thus making them fail to chamber. He wouldn't listen, and called me after his first big batch of realoads, saying his ammo was jamming about every 3rd or 4th shot. I asked if he'd lubed the inside of the case necks before sizing, and he said no. I said if he wanted to keep getting jams, to keep on failing to lube the inside of the case necks. He protested that he didn't "see" how that could make "that much difference." I again told him that if he didn't "see" it after getting the results he had, I was unable to explain it. He insisted that it "shouldn't" be necessary. I said just keep doing it the way you are now, and you'll keep getting the same results. I have to be very plain and explicit with this good young man. He's almost as hard-headed as I am ... but not quite.

A week later, he called to admit I'd been right from the beginning, and that he'd loaded some ammo up using the same exact die setup as before. They hadn't been moved or adjusted, and were still in the press. Every round fed like a champ. He's VERY hard to convince that what I tell him is true, but he does, at least, have the integrity to come back and admit flat out that he was wrong and I was right. He's learning, and I actually LIKE someone who'll tell me EXACTLY what they think, and why. I can deal with that. He's always in a big hurry, and has made all the same mistakes I and most other reloaders have, adn while he doesn't LIKE having to do it the "right" way, he's learning that things sure go a LOT smoother and faster at the range, and slowly, he's learned that this time is MUCH better and more efficiently spent at the bench doing the "little things" that can make such a big difference.

Another time, we were shooting on a local long range course at 600 yds. He had a new custom built custom actioned .308 with a very nice scope on it. He was getting @ 8" groups at that range. He said he thought that was pretty good, and seemed to be less than satisfied with his spendy new rifle's performance, though his words didn't reflect it. I watched him shoot a couple of shots, and saw that he was pressing the forend against the side of the bag in the rest. I told him he couldn't do that and get the rifle to shoot up to its real potential, and that testing his loads that way wasn't giving him true info about how they were really doing. He said I was crazy, that little things like that couldn't possibly make a difference. I had plenty of shooting to do myself, so just told him if he was happy with the results, to keep doing it the same way. He was shifting his position on the bench with each shot, which isn't good either. We kept shooting, and near sunset, when my chrono had quit working, he called to me, asking me to look through the spotting scope he'd set up. I said I was busy trying to get my last few rounds down range, and he again told me to look at the target in the spotter. I looked over at him, and his face was red as a beet, and he had a funny grin/smile on his face. I got up quickly so as to lose as little time as possible, and went to the spotter. There, I saw what later turned out to be a 2 1/4" group for 4 of 5 shots at 600, and a 5th out about 2" to the left. A very light wind blew the 5th one, I believe. We had a few gusts, and he wasn't allowing for wind, since the air was pretty still at the time. I looked at him with a smile, and asked "What did you do?" He chuckled that he'd done exactly what I'd told him to, and got THAT group! He again said, "You were right. I don't know why I have to be so hard-headed all the time, but seeing sure is believing. I guess I know now how these little things really DO make a difference." He's been a real trial to teach at times, but his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses, and he's got real talent, if he can just learn how to harness and use it. His attitude may be resistant to NOT doing it "the easy way," but he's learning that the "easy way" isn't always "easy" on the range, and that those "little things" really DO matter, and DO make rather large, if seemingly unexpeced, differences. We all had to learn by doing, but some of the young lions seem dedicated to doing things the same old way unless and until something like a blowup MAKES them pay more attention to their reloading. The hectic pace of "modern life" is a big reason for it, but I think some of the "entitlement" attitude is at play in at least some of the newbies, and that's much harder to deal with. I just hope nobody has to get hurt to make them see the light, and that's why I made this post. It's no fun talking about my own blowup. I still get the "willies" just thinking about it. But if it helps someone avoid something along those lines, I'm just glad SOMETHING might come out of it after all. One mistake is all it takes. Just one. And I'm living (thank God!) proof of that.

[mongoose33]

Blackwater, your post makes me feel better for what I did in the reloading room tonite.

I've been reloading for going on 8 years, but there are times I still feel like a newbie. The web certainly accelerated my learning, but still when I do something new, I'm a little...hyper careful about it.

I've got a couple guns that shoot .357 magnum, but hadn't reloaded for it yet. Tonite was the night. I consulted several reloading manuals (I have 5 plus the Loadbooks plus the Annual Manuals) looking for loads for a bullet that doesn't appear in there--it's a 125gr Lee cast boolit that I've PC'd.

It took me several days, consulting different sources, before I was ready to go tonite. I'd write down the loads from one source for those bullets which were close, then confirm in other sources that the loads were reasonable ones to start with.

I started w/ 700X, found loads for 4.0 to 5.5 grains. I always--always--work 'em up. I've loaded up five rounds at 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0, and when I shoot them tomorrow, I'll chrono them to make sure I'm getting what I'd expect from them. If anything looks or feels out of whack, I will stop and figure out why. Once I am comfortable that I'm producing what I expect to produce based on components and powder and such, then I'll look for accuracy, ideal velocity, and so on. It's a multi-step process and should not, and will not, be done in one fell swoop.

And now, I'm a bit tired, and it's time to stop and have a beverage.

PS: I have had my Ruger LC9 blow out the extractor. To this day I don't know why, as I loaded those rounds on my LNL AP with the RCBS lockout die, so I don't believe it was a double-charge. Maybe just worn brass. As I'm sure happened with your Blackhawk, it has a way of concentrating the mind. :)

[.22-10-45]

I guess I was just fortunate coming up before the Internet was even thought of! While still in High School, my sister who worked downtown, one day brought a big hard cover book home from the City library for me titled Complete Guide To Handloading by Phil Sharpe. I just about wore that book out reading & re-reading from cover to cover (Sis said her arms were wore out from constantly lugging that thing back and forth!). And this was years before I even owned a centerfire of any kind. When I finally did jump into handloading, I had a pretty good handle on the basics, and withen a year, had started casting for a .30-40 Krag. there was no one to answer my many questions..only books..and the occasional letter sent off to the NRA Dope Bag. But the answers I did get were straight..not an opinion from some jimbo who though something should work or be safe. I know reading books nowdays seems passe to some..but a set of good reloading books and manuals could very well save someones life.

[mjwcaster]

Thanks to the OP for posting this.
I am not a real experienced reloader, but my pet peeve is someone who wants to get started reloading and is just looking for 'recipes'.

The 'why do I need a reloading manual, I can just get my load info from the web'.
They just do not understand that reloading manuals are not just lists of 'recipes', they are guides on how to do things correctly and why you need to do them correctly.
And it is important to understand why you need to do things a certain way.

While I am still working on getting my cast boolits up to standard (just need to bite the bullet and get some decent molds, like has been said here many times) I have learned so much about reloading and guns in general from just lurking on here for years before even posting much.

And I still read my reloading manuals cover to cover at times, just to make sure I understand as much as possible.

[toallmy]

My father told me if I could learn from his mistakes I would have a much simpler life that he had allready tried the stuff I haven't thought about yet . But I probably wouldn't , yep some times you have to touch something hot to understand what hot mens. Just be careful

[randyrat]

Sometimes we can watch someone walking down the path of life and just see the big warm pile they are bout to step in and we just watch.
Not in reloading though, I'm glad people are kind enough to point out the dangers here and send out warnings.

[Blackwater]

Good points, all, and especially mjwcaster's about the manuals' "how to" sections. It may be understandable that people in our busy work-a-day world WANT to spend a minimum of time in everything we do, BUT ... when it comes to a pursuit like handloading, we NEED to take just a little time to learn WHY things ought to be done the way the manuals say. Only when we understand the PRINCIPLES of it all do we really begin to get a real grasp on just what the potentials are for NOT paying attention to the details, and not knowing that CAN yield big problems, and provide less than satisfactory - or even workable - results.

This is most definitely NOT to dissuade anyone from reloading, casting, etc., but merely to help them see the necessity of doing things the RIGHT way. We get SUCH good results when we simply follow the "rules." Those "rules" were established by trial and error long ago, but of course, some folks just HAVE to pee on the electric fence to prove it really IS charged up! Loading for a wildcat is always an exercise in discretion and a test of one's competence. I've used the .30 Herrett and a .35 Whelen Ackley, and just used what I'd learned from examining primers for the past 40+ years when I got them, and had nothing but happiness. Learning the principles LASTS. Learning "recipes" is lost when memory fails. These just aren't very complex or dense principles we use, but they ARE important. As Dan'l Boone is purported to have said, "First make sure you're right, then go ahead on." That probably applies to reloading and casting as well as any other endeavor in life. I just keep seeing potential problems associated with some of the things and attitudes I see posted here, and do NOT want anyone getting hurt if I and many more here had the potential to at least warn them. If they STILL get in trouble, make unfunctioning loads, or hurt someone else (always a possibility with a blowup!), well .... at least we tried to avert it. They just wouldn't listen. Care and circumspection is such an easy and basic thing! Why NOT use it?

[Love Life]

Blackwater- What you speak is the truth. I deal with it quite a bit with people, but I tend to tell them to stick to factory ammo. I mean, there are whole books with step by step instructions. Heck, the 1st few chapters answer 90% of the "Why my ammo do this?" questions.

I submit the following: "My ammo wont chamber! Yes I read the manual!! I've loaded 10,000,000,000 rds the same exact way and they all chambered before!!!"

147198


The reality of it is that reloading is one of the simplest things I've ever done. X amount of powder+correct brass+correct primer+correct bullet+correct dies+correct loaded rd measurements=success. Many maladies I see could have been eliminated if someone would read the manual and take measurements of their ammo. As for shortcuts, people take them at their own risk and your reminder is a very good one to all.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Love Life. I just hope some here take it like it's meant, and it's NOT meant as a criticism, but as a plea to stop and just THINK. If we're too busy to learn to reload the way it's necessary to produce GOOD ammo, then we're just plain too dang busy. It's not just easy to be swept up in the modern "too fast" pace of life, it's hard NOT to get caught up in it, especially for the younger, newer ones. Some, due to faulty practices and too many "hurry up" short-cuts will quit reloading, and label it "too unreliable," when it's NOT reloading that's unreliable, but the WAY they did it that's the problem.

And it really doesn't take all that long to read the manuals, and take in the info, and learn these really fairly easy to understand general principles. I think all manuals now carry special sections on reloading for autos, for instance, but does anyone read them? Yes, but it's only a few. The rest dive into the deep end of the pool without their water wings, and a few inevitably drown, or are pulled out breathless. That's just sad, when it's so EASY to learn, and the info is right there in front of us in every manual printed now, I believe!

We old timers really try hard, but it's getting harder and harder to find anyone who'll just listen, and NOT say "You're crazy! That can't possibly make that much differnce" like my young friend did on that 600 yd. range. It's amazing. It's frustrating. And yet, so very prevalent now! I know I'm a crotchety old timer, but I have the scars to show WHY I'm that way these days. And I actually sought out the best info, books, manuals and reading I could get along the way, too!

Unrestrained and uninformed reloaders may well be a nail in the coffin of our gun rights, given the tendency of the media to blow a single event WAY out of proportion, and make the unknowing public think there's problems where there really are only idiots doing their usual idiotic thing. It really disturbs me, and I look for some article to come out, with an ensuing hue and cry from the usual suspects, that "We've got to stop this uncontrolled home reloading thing!" any day now.

I'm not a betting man, but I'd almost put money on it, and THAT really IS significant. The libs are multiplying, and getting ever more aggressive and unrestrained. They're getting bolder and bolder, and the bulk of the populace less and less thoughtful on the issues. That really doesn't bode well for the future, but that's more appropriate to the political forum, I guess, so I'll leave it at that. It really DOES affect us all, though, or will likely do so in the end. I guess I just want to be able to say "I tried" when it all comes crashing down?

And THIS is coming from a guy who's always been very optimistic, too! Optimistic yes, but reality is what it is, and it's harder and harder to remain that way. And .... and this is the good part .... it's totally unnecessary. All we have to do is just get off our "hurry it all up" attitude and just sit and do a little real reading and thinking and learning. Such an easy, basic principle, and yet, so generally forgotten! FWIW?

[mongoose33]

Thanks, Love Life. I just hope some here take it like it's meant, and it's NOT meant as a criticism, but as a plea to stop and just THINK.

It's true--if one just forges ahead with no concern for how things feel, different or otherwise, one gets what one deserves.

If you're pulling the handle on a press and it feels different, FIND OUT WHY.

If a round ends up different than you thought it should have been, FIND OUT WHY.

If you shoot a round and it feels different, FIND OUT WHY. And do it before you pull the trigger again--you might have a squib sitting in the barrel waiting to blow your gun up.

Find out why. Stop and think. It may seem slower, but it's much preferable to losing a finger, your eyesight, or your life.

[dtknowles]

You mean we need to pay attention to what we are doing, concentrate and be alert for anything unusual? This might apply to more than reloading.

Tim

[W.R.Buchanan]

Blackwater: I have found that "people who think that they know," are different from "people who know that they know."

I prefer to listen to the latter. Others not so much.

I admire your handling of the younger generation, I have found that it is pointless argue with fools.

Best to put the information out and let them slowly absorb it on their own time.

Thank God for Osmosis ! Too bad Democrats haven't found out about it.

Randy

[JohnH]

I don't post too often at all these days, drop in a cruise around a bit, read a few threads of interest and leave. This one attracted my attention because I'm tired of telling people how to do something, most especially when they ask. Too many have ended up striking me as insincere. I've paid for my education, paid for reloading manuals (I bought one before I bought a press and dies), tools supplies, magazines, time spent with my elders on the range, time spent shooting both informally and formally. Couple weeks back at the range I overheard some younger folk commenting on the old guy with the revolvers shooting well. I was shooting at 25 yards, they were shooting at 7-10. They easily fired 5 or more rounds to each of mine. I got some good 45 ACP brass after they left and it was painfully obvious that pie plates would have been a challenge for them. I remember those times of my own. Maybe seeing some of what what can be done will encourage them to seek a higher ability. They didn't ask how it was I could shoot 3-4" groups at 25 yards, I didn't volunteer, 'cause the answer is "You got to learn the right way and teach yourself to do that and only that". Once upon a time I would have been eager to tell any who would listen what I know. These days I'm not so sure I know anything.

Last week at the range a fellow asked me about the load I was shooting in my 45 ACP, he said he had been looking for something that didn't pound the **** out him (he's arthritic like myself) and saw that the gun was not recoiling heavily. We had a good conversation swapped a few loads, shot each others guns a little. I guess the difference is all about how the question is approached. Some want to learn and are willing to invest themselves in the process. Some want shortcuts. The difference is generally obvious, and i don't have to waste my time with those who are going to waste it.

[Blackwater]

I think a lot of us share your pain, John. I've been called "crazy" more than a few times when I've tried to volunteer good and proven info. It really gets tiring after a while. The young guy I was on that 600 yd. range with sought me out, I didn't seek him out. When he started asking me questions, then calling me "crazy" when I answered them differently than he wanted them to be, I just shrugged my shoulders, and said, "Then keep on doing it your way, and keep getting less than what you want." He DOES have the simple honesty and humility to admit when he's wrong, and we've gone through that a number of times now. He's finally come to not calling me crazy, and is getting a pretty good picture of WHY he thinks as he does, or rather, ASSUMES the things he does (without anything to go on, really, but his preferences). They CAN be taught, but they seem to be naturally resistant to accepting anything that's counter to what they WANT to think. "That can't possibly matter THAT much!" is something I come across pretty regularly. If you can just get them to do things right just once, the light seems to go on inside their heads, even though they're not very warmed up to the idea. Seeing is, usually at least, believing. His problems with bad ammo for his AR-10 and with his long range shooting are just two of the "problems" he's had that he should never have encountered if he'd just read the manuals. He's living a rather hectic life, and has little time for his hobbies, but that just makes it even MORE important that he do it right, and he's coming along with realizing that. He likes to throw money at "problems," but he's learning you can't buy a good shot. YOU have to MAKE them! He's no dummy. He's just been raised to think like they teach them in the gov't run schools today. As such, he's really a victim of sorts, but not wholly unblamable for it, of course. He's just learning to really learn and THINK. You can't believe how much better he is as a reloader and shooter now. I might actually shoot some of his loads in my own guns, and that's something that most people don't realize is a real compliment these days!

[Geezer in NH]

The Internet is full of morons. Do not enable them. When they state they have no manuals and are told to get at least one, do not offer any more info to them that just encourages idiots IMHO