What's going on?

[Old Jim]

I cast for the .41 Mag. I have a Keith style mold made by LBT @ 226 grs and acess to a weight forward mold in the LNFP style made by LBT. I have used a semi soft commercial lube and am now using a homade beeswax and moly mix lube.
I have a new Bisley BlackHawk Hunter that I took to the range to come up with a load for this deer season and later on hogs.

Fri. I took the LNFP loaded with 18,19,19.5,20,20.5 and 21 grs of Lil Gun. At 35 yards with scope mounted and gun on sand bags got an average of 14" pattern. No group. Same bullet with 13 grs of A7, no group. Had a few 210 gr XTPs over 296 went into 1.5"
Sat. LNFP with 21gr 296- no group. Keith bullet with 21 gr 296-no group but the pattern was smaller(5-6").
Had a few cast performance 250grs over 19 grs of 296. 5 rounds, one hole, moved out to 75 yards and got a 3" group. Took the scope off and got 5 consecutive hits on 8" gong.
Obviously the cast bullets that I have made are no good at this speed for this gun. What could I be doing wrong? (Maximum of .8 gr difference, weighed 50)
I would hate to have to resort to buying hunting bullets when I enjoy making my own.
Going out this after noon with 7 different loadings in 3 different bullets and 4 different powders.
Help!

[nighthunter]

I'd have to think it is a sizing problem. Have you slugged your barrel and measured your chamber mouths? What are you sizing too? I would look at this before I said the bullets won't shoot.
Nighthunter

[JohnH]

Had a few cast performance 250grs over 19 grs of 296. 5 rounds, one hole, moved out to 75 yards and got a 3" group. Took the scope off and got 5 consecutive hits on 8" gong.
Help!

With what load were you hitting the gong? Are you sure the scope is not the problem?

[Bass Ackward]

Sat. LNFP with 21gr 296- no group. Keith bullet with 21 gr 296-no group but the pattern was smaller(5-6"). Had a few cast performance 250grs over 19 grs of 296. 5 rounds, one hole, moved out to 75 yards and got a 3" group. Took the scope off and got 5 consecutive hits on 8" gong.



Jim,

Let's play CSI. Jacketed shoots. SO the gun is OK. And you can shoot.

Some commercial Keith type cast hold something close to a pattern. So lead isn't really an issue. But the long nose flat point is either NOT stabilizing, your mix is too soft, or your diameter is *****.

Which do you think it is? Does this bullet have a GC?

[Old Jim]

Went to the range Sun.

Seems that the gun likes 250gr or 270gr gas checked bullets with healthy but not maximum doses of W296(Cast Performance recommends 19 grs of W296 where the Lee book shows 21 as being Max.). The 250 being the Cast Performance WFNGC and the 270 being LeadHead's 270 GC. The CP and all of my bullets mic at .4105 and the LeadHeads at .411.
I shoot the lighter cast bullets both mine and LeadHead's thru a 6" SW 657 for excellent accuracy.
I have not slugged the barrel but as stated above, all the bullets mic the same.
The 5 shots with out scope on the gong were CP 250 over 19 grs of W296, the load that seems to be the best.
Casting alloy is straight WW.
I can live with buying bullets but am just disappointed that my bullets won't shoot as well as I would like.
I'm going to send the cylinder to the Cylinder Smith and have it opened a bit, buy some 250's and maybe try to down load a bit and see what happens.
By the way, 190 gr RNFP cowboy bullets over 5 grs of Bulleseye shot pretty well. Had to watch the steel for movement to be sure I had shot. Kinda goes "poof" out of the heavy Hunter.

[Bass Ackward]

The 250 being the Cast Performance WFNGC and the 270 being LeadHead's 270 GC. The CP and all of my bullets mic at .4105 and the LeadHeads at .411.

I'm going to send the cylinder to the Cylinder Smith and have it opened a bit, buy some 250's and maybe try to down load a bit and see what happens.
By the way, 190 gr RNFP cowboy bullets over 5 grs of Bulleseye shot pretty well.


Jim,

Really hard to point you in the right direction here because of conflicting information. I would eliminate diameter because the 190s and 250s on up shoot. They are GC'd. All bullet designs shoot well in or from a Smith. That means the bullet inquestion does alright in another handgun. So it should be fine. Could just come down to that gun NOT liking that design. It can be just as simple as that.

Not meaning to be insulting, but I seriously doubt that opening up the cylinder throats is going to do much to improve that one bullet's performance if the others are already working. I would make darn sure that is really what you want to do before you execute because you could end up with a gun that won't shoot as well as it did with the other designs. Most guns already have cylinders that border on being too large for my tastes.

[RugerFan]

Old Jim,
I have the exact same pistol as you, but just the opposite situation. I get good accuracy with whatever I try. I have used a 3 different bullets (220 gn SWC, 240 gn Keith, 255 WFN - all GCs), 3 different powders (IMR 4227, H110, 2400), and a variety of lubes (FWFL, RCBS, alox, and couple home brews). The cylinder throats measure .411 and I have sized the bullets to .410 and .411. Through all my testing there has only been very slight variations in accuracy. The pistol just digests all combinations very well with the lighter SWC lagging just a bit. (BTW alloys are WW and 80/20 WW/lino)

All 3 of these powders are very close on the burn rate scale, so no wonder they perform similarly. 296 is also close burn rate wise, but if you wanted to try a different powder, IMR 4227 has had a slight edge in my pistol. You may not get the best accuracy with "book" maximum charges, but with slightly stepped down charges should be able to get decent velocity to kill big game or knock down iron rams.

What do your cylinder throats measure now and what would you have them honed too? You might want to try different molds first.

Try 18.0 to 19.0 gns of IMR 4227 with a 250 gn Keith or WFN. Try bullets with different nose lengths. If your pistol doesn’t perform with a long nosed bullet, try a short nose to get more bearing surface (Mine does handle long noses just fine). It's just a matter finding the right combination.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[felix]

There are just too many revolters out there which are crap stright from the box. There is no rime or reason, either, as to why. Some have trash triggers, others cylinders, and some have rotten barrels. I have about 15 or 20 of them, and only about 3 are what I would call keepers. And, what is crazy is that I cannot tell you why they are good. One has sloppy lockup, and one has overly large cylinder exits, and the other good one seems to be just average in total fit everywhere. It seems it is much easier to get a 45 acp 1911 to shoot via the custom route than it is a revolter.
... felix

[Old Jim]

Being sure that there is something mechanical going on:
I mic-ed the cylinder again and it mics 410 in 5 and a little tighter in 1.
I pushed a .410 XTP thru 5 with little effort and a lot of effort thru 1.
Dropped one of my Keiths in and it would not go thru any. Dropped one of the cowboys in and it went easily thru 5 and a little snug in 1.
Light began to go on.
CP is .410+. Leadhead gas checked 270 is .410 down to gas check which is 411. My cowboy bullet is .410.
I size my bullets thru an RCBS Lubri-sizer.
My long bullets are 410+ to the crimp groove and then 411-412 on the front driving band.
The cowboy bullet is so short that it gets the full sizing.
The bullets that are nearest to .410, Cowboy, XTP and Cast Performance shoot well. The Leadhead with .411 gas check shoots better than my bullets.
Now I'll run some of mine and some of the 230 gr LeadHeads thru a Lee sizer and see if that makes a difference.
By the way, ran a Lewis Lead Remover patch thru the cylinders and barrel and got enough lead that if you got it in your eye it might hurt. Essentialy none.

[7br]

Couple notes of interest. I shoot a Dan Wesson .41 . I have a RCBS 210gr plain base bullet that shoots about 4"/100yards with 17 gr 296. I also have a 235gr LBT-LFN gas checked bullet that shoots pretty decent with loads from 19.5 to 21 of 296. Also had pretty good groups with a 315gr lfn checked bullet.

I would hazard to say that you are probably in excess of 1450fps with a plain based bullet. I would try backing the velocity down to 1200fps, or go with a checked bullet.

Somewhere in my powder magazine, I have a lb of lil gun. I did not have very good initial success and haven't gone back to it. If you get good results, this might be something to revisit.

[RugerFan]

Felix has a point in that all revolvers are not created equal. If you're looking for more than cylinder honing, check out Alpha Precision:

http://www.alphaprecisioninc.com/

[JohnH]

May sound as though I 'm guessin' but here goes anyway.....you've checked the cylinder throats, have you checked the bore? Modern custom in revolvers is to run really hard bullets. Is it possible that your throats are smaller than your groove diameter and the bullets are hard enough that they ain't bumping back up to grip the rifling well? I had a rude awakening about hardness recently, and even with a loose scope, shooting a softer alloy cut my fliers by half and the group size by a quarter. The more I read about hard alloys, the less I think they are what we want. I've had several conversations with revolver shooters of late complainig about commercial bullets being to hard. Keith (IIRC) was shooting mostly 16:1 using gas checks and his load for the 44 Special was in the 30,00 cup range. 16:1 is only 11 BHN. Took me a bit to een give the idea of softer an honest try. In a 357 Maximum Handi rifle, I'm pushing 8BHN at 1600 and 1800 fps, no leading. Loads are 21.5 grains of 4198 and 24.5 grains of WC680. I don't think metal this soft would work well in a revolver at high pressure, but I doubt that harder than 15 BHN would serve well either.

[Willbird]

Lilgun in 357 magnum looks like it does not build high pressure, 44 magnum this is less so, I would guess 41 magnum being somewhat in between that it still doesnt build enough pressure to make an improperly fitted bullet obturate. Jacketed bullets do not need a tight gas seal to perform, or rather they are more tolerant of NOT having it. YOur testing showed that faster powders worked better, as did heavier bullets, both of which boost pressures in the cylinder throat and the first few inches of bore.

I'm going to make an educated guess that the bore is bigger than the throats.

Bill

[Old Jim]

Initial results with Lil Gun are not impressive.

Decided to try Bear Tooths plan of opening cylinder throats with emery paper having had success with it before. The tight chamber had a burr so large that it was tearing the paper. Smoothed it out with 600 grit. All chambers are as close now as is possible to get them using this method. Took long enough that I was unable to load more or get to the range.

Ran across a bag of old Remington yellow pills for a real good price.

May have to resort to them for deer loads and go with the 250/270s for hogs.

Alloy strength- The bullets that shoot best are the commercial Cast Performance and LeadHeads. Both are gas checked but the assumption would be that they are harder than my WW bullets that don't shoot worth a flip.

Speed-All bullets in the initial testing were fired over a Chrony. All were running from 1380 to 1540 depending on the load and bullets. SD all over the place and spread all over the place.

Next session will be at a much more sedate pace. Will try Lee's minimum loads on all charges fired. Adding Blue Dot to the mix for a try. Was not impressed with it when I first tried it.

I'll keep you posted.

[Bret4207]

Jim- Your last post suggets the following IMHO:

1. Slug your cylinder and bore. Use a soft lead slug and mic them. Possibility the barrel is oversize for the chambers. Without actually going through the pia work of slugging you'll never know.

2. I think you're on the right track to slow down, a bunch. I'd start at around 900-1,000fps and work up from there. It may be your gun won't handle fast cast in the designs you have.

3. I'd take one design and work with that one exclusivly for a bit before jumping to another design and playing with it.

4. No flame intended, just a suggestion from experience. Don't open your throats anymore with the emery cloth until you're sure it's needed. Take the time to find youe chamber throat and barrel specs and then size your bullets accordingly. I feel you're leaping from one issue to another without determining the problem, which may be a combination of things. I tend to do the same thing, so please don't take offense.