1873 Carbine in 38-40

[TXGunNut]

Been eying a truly unusual gun but just can't warm up to it. It's an old Winchester 1873 carbine in 38-40. Seen plenty of rifles but can't recall a carbine from this era. Finish a bit rough and the bore is iffy IMHO for boolits. Priced just under $3K so it's a stretch to acquire this one as a shooter. I'm not set up to load or cast for this cartridge so I guess that's strike three.

There's a Mirouku/BACO 1873 in 38/357 in the rack next to it and quite honestly it makes more sense to me.

[ndnchf]

I'm no expert, but my gut says that is a bit high for one in that condition. I don't know how rare a .38-40 carbine is, but that caliber is not near as desirable as a .44-40 either. So rarity may be offset by collectability. By comparison I have an original .44-40 carbine that I paid a good bit less for. But while it had a pretty nice bore, it turned out to have bulge in it. I discussed it with John Taylor, I had no choice but to have him make a new barrel for it. The .44 carbine barrels are too thin to reline. That .38-40 may be reline-able, I don't know, that would be a question for John. But I wouldn't want to pay near $3K and have to have it relined to be a good shooter. I love my carbine, but it took some money and patience to make it a good shooter.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/1873carbine1_zpse880af7d.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/1873carbine1_zpse880af7d.jpg.html)

[Cherokee]

I would pick to 38/357...38/40 has no appeal and the price is too high for me.

[yooper]

And I'm just the opposite of Cherokee. IMO, there ought to be a law against talking about an original Winchester 1873 and an asian knock-off in the same paragraph. I wouldn't trade my 1883 vintage 44-40 SRC for a cargo ship full of imports. Just me probably, but that's the way I feel and I guess that's why they have choices.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/yooper35/m733_zpsnrpmmbfq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/yooper35/media/m733_zpsnrpmmbfq.jpg.html)
yooper

[rbertalotto]

there ought to be a law against talking about an original Winchester 1873 and an asian knock-off in the same paragraph.

A "REAL" Winchester 38-40 SRC in just about any condition is like buying stocks....Hold on to it a few years and you'll double your investment..........Not the same thing as buying a "shooter" Italian or Japan gun. Them are for shooy'n......This one is for collect'n.....

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Sadly the 38 WCF 1873's are not worth as much even though there are fewer of them. This is one case where the law of "demand" far superceeds the numbers. Years back 1873's in 38 WCF were less than half price of the 44 WCF. Happily that is when I bought mine.
I would not buy an 1873 for 3k unless it was 90 % finish and a very nice bore. For 3 K you can buy a 1st model 1873 in described condition with a little searching about. For 3k I will sell you my 2nd model 44 WCF with factory "special order" short very heavy barrel. That bore is very nice and shoots as good as any 1873. But you would have to be content to wait till June for lots of photos as I am still here in Peru. There are two write ups on this 1873 on page 7 of this lever gun forum.
Mike in Peru

[OnHoPr]

Well, I guess beauty and efficiency is in the eyes of the beholder. The 38-40 winny in the win 92 or similar strong action can get a boolit pushing upwards close to 2000 fps with a decent size metplat with something in the neighborhood of 296, 4198, 3031, Rel 7 or 10 powders. I think it would be a little good thumper out to the 125 yd range or so. IMO it may even be more deer worthy than the 30-30 to a 100 yds and still in a fast handling snappy rifle.

Useful case capacities
30-30 - 2.45 cc
.357 - 1.15 cc
38-40 win - 2.13 cc
41 mag - 1.35 cc
44 mag - 1.63 cc

147160 147161

Left to right, 357 mag case, 357 mag case with 38 +P loading, 44 mag with 240 gr Gold Dot sitting in it, Lee 310, Lee 240, 38-40 win, Lee 500 S&W 440 gr.

By the time you put a 240, 270, or 310 gr boolit in the 44 mag case a lot of powder room gets used up. With the 215 gr .402 boolit there would still be more room for powder (even for slower burning powders and softer boolits) in the 38-40 win case. Possibilities of like a 250 gr boolit could even make it quite appealing to me anyways with the possibility of being deeper driving. There might even be a reduction in recoil with the 215 gr boolit. That is more like a 41 mag on super steroids.

147164
These are estimated ballistics of a 38-40 win with a 215 GC boolit with rifle in a strong action like the 92.

147165
There are Hornady ballistics with the 225 gr Flecks tip

147166
These are ballistics for the Buffalo Bore low recoil 255 gr GC Keith

I think the 38-40 win is a very competing deer thumper out to 150 yds. Sight height was estimated using peep sights on all @ 1". Getting out to the 150 yd range with peeps in these woods rifle scenarios is getting a little far if you have to identify a doe from a 4 pt or count points on one side unless you start using binos, but then again if you have a doe and buck permit it doesn't really matter. What a great little slipping rifle.

[smokeywolf]

I'd pass on both of the guns; the Winchester and the japchester next to it. Save your money and keep shopping for a better deal.

For me, IF (big IF) I were going to acquire a Winchester copy, I think it might have to be a Model '76 in 45-60 from Cimarron.

[TXGunNut]

I like the BACO gun but I have plenty of shooters. The 38 WCF is a bit higher up on my cartridge wish list than the 44 WCF but that's not the problem, this rifle has too much going against it and nothing going for it other than the carbine configuration. My shooting buddy has a few 73's and I enjoy his rifles. He has one that needs retiring or relining and it's been a source of frustration for him. The bore is pitted but the rifling looks pretty decent; unfortunately he can't get it to shoot. The carbine I'm looking at is slightly better but it would have to be a lot better to get me interested. I think the collector value may be there but I'll always be a shooter first.

[northmn]

Guess it depends on how bad you want a shooter and a 73. I have kind of admired the 73 for years but really never saw one that was worth it to me. The Italian copies run over $1000 and originals are collectors. The 38-40 will probably do about anything the 44-40 would in practice as the difference in power is pretty small. You would be limited to about the same game and ranges. Getting set up for either one would be very spendy also. They are historical novelties, which as a builder of traditional muzzle loaders I can appreciate, so I am not really knocking them. As I have shot both game and competition with the ML's I kind of feel that I have been there done that. It was fun while it lasted.

DP

[TXGunNut]

Good points, northmn. I'm not in a hurry to fill that niche, not in a hurry at all to $tart a new cartridge. I'm really partial to the later leverguns but I love watching an 1873 action work. I don't have a need for any more hunting rifles, I'll be lucky to hunt with all the rifles I bought for that purpose, lol. I can wait for the right 1873 to come along. OTOH I can buy 2-4 nice 94's for the same money and I load for most of the cartridges they're chambered for.
Got my Cabelas bill since I started this thread. I think I've had enough fun for awhile.:bigsmyl2:

[cajun shooter]

It all boils down to the reason that they make more than one flavor ice cream. TXGUNNUT, I know that you have pretty much done it all when it comes to the shooting sports. To me there is nothing better than the action of a 1873 rifle in 44wcf caliber although I'm also very intriqued by the 38-40 which we know is nothing but a sized down neck 44wcf case so that it accepts a .401 bullet.
Like the 41 and 44 magnums, I don't think anything hit with either would be able to tell the difference. Later David

[Speedo66]

Sometimes a bore will look like a train wreck, but shoot decently. Mine falls into that category. 1889 Model '73 in .38-40 will shoot a nice group at 25 yards, and hit bowling pins with regularity at 60 yards despite the sewer pipe bore appearance. I mildly load it with TrailBoss and Missouri Bullets soft 180g boolits and seems to digest them and spit them out just fine.

[TXGunNut]

TXGUNNUT, I know that you have pretty much done it all when it comes to the shooting sports. -Cajun shooter

I've done a lot of dabbling and a fair bit of pretty serious competing in a few areas but I certainly hope I haven't "done it all". Even though my comp days are quite likely behind me I'm sure there are lots of disciplines I haven't given serious attention to. CAS and SASS are good examples; never been to a match but I enjoy many of the arms used in this game.
Quite honestly if (when?) the right 1873 comes along it matters little to me if it's 38 or a 44. I don't load for either so the outlay would be similar. I am set up to load and cast for the 32 but can't recall seeing many 1873's in that chambering.

[TXGunNut]

Sometimes a bore will look like a train wreck, but shoot decently.-Speedo66

That line of thinking cost me a fair bit of cash a few years back. Found a slick little 92 with a bore that made me scratch my head awhile but I finally bought it. I've since given up on trying to make it shoot and I'm wavering between trade bait and a barrel liner. Rifle has a fair bit of collector value even with the somewhat rough bore so it's a tough call.
This 1873 is a good bit more money than the 92 but it will be worth little to me if I can't shoot it. One non-shooting safe queen is one more than I want, I don't think I'm as lucky as you in the bore lottery. Ummm...got any pics of your 1873? ;-)

[missionary5155]

Good morning TX
I have a 73 in 32-20 that was my prime "ground hog" rifle for years. It has a rough pitted, interrupted (little places where it is gone) rifling barrel that was a challenge. That rifle taught me a lot about forgetting the groove diameter and getting a bullet fat enough in the throat area to start straight. Ended up it took a .315+ (almost .316 in my micrometer) to finally get it to shoot good enough to head or shoulder shoot ground hogs at 35-40 yards. I hunt river bottoms, irrigation canals and woods ends along fields so that is about all the farther I ever see those pesky hole diggers. Found that a 40-1, 115 grain (well lapped mold to drop at .315+) with 3F would consistently fill the requirements. Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique will come close but I use Cronographed 3F velocity as the max load guide in 73's. But 3F makes it all so much easier. No need to crimp. And ground hogs do not run in packs so fouling with 3F (very light) is no issue for hours of slinking about and having a great time. I carry a DW 32-20 for real close shots.

But anyway down here with me is a 92 made in 1909 with the worse 44 WCF bore I have battled. Pitted in the grooves and rifling. Figured out also it has a bad throat and a badly worn muzzle. This had no collector value (reblued). So lopped off 1.25 inches of barrel to get to solid rifling. Lapped out a .430 200 grain mold to drop range scrap (mine) at .434+ which is the fattest diameter that SRC will chamber. Once more 3F produces the best "accuracy" and Unique close. It will now hold 4-5 inches at 50 yards which is OK for what it is called on to do.

Maybe you have tried all that. If that all fails I would try some HB soft cast. Make a simple drill jig and find whatever diameter drill bit will hog out the right amount of lead from the base. Worth trying with 10 rounds of 3F. Just need enough base lead removed to get the base to open out to grip the fat throat and first inch or so of barrel. Always gets narrower going down the ugliness some barrels are inflicted with.
Nothing else.. deep drill the bore and shoot cases loaded with shot. Call it your "Little Sure Shot Rifle" and do glass ball demos. After you have amazed all your shooting friends get it relined and enjoy it.
Mike in Peru
Mike in Peru

[cajun shooter]

My first posting should of had a bit more of an explanation with it. I meant that I know you have been in the sport of BPCR as I purchased some of your old equipment when you were doing some selling. Anyone who has shot BPCR has the background to shoot BP in either of the calibers discussed.
If you have not shot in SASS then I say, GIVE IT A TRY. As you know all competive shooting games maybe approached in different ways. You can go all out to win or pick a style of shooting that gives you pleasure and fun and let the others contend with the winning at all cost syndrome.
I had shot in a few competitive handgun sports like IHMSA and PPC and I wanted to have FUN THIS TIME. I decided to shoot in the Frontier Cartridge class with full case loads of BP that shook the ground when I fire. Everyone steps back after my first round is fired. Ha!! Ha!!
I enjoy the other shooters and the fun I have when the Fire and Smoke is so thick I can't see the target anymore.
You also have those that shoot the mouse fart loads and take every advantage they can to be top dog, it's your choice on what you decide to do. I went to about 8 matches before I signed on in 2007. Take Care David

[dubber123]

Some people with rough bore guns still shy away from firelapping, I wouldn't do that. The bore stinks anyways, what will it hurt? And on that topic, I have never seen anything but an improvement, and sometimes dramatic.

I bought an early S&W 32-20 offline. The bore was and is pretty awful, and the crown looked washed out. I fixed the crown and cleaned the bore for days to no avail. Best loads shot 6"+ groups at 50 yds. I finally firelapped it, and lo and behold the bore started to shine a bit. No, it didn't produce a nice bore, it's still pitted, but the same best loading now shoots right at 3" at 50 yds.

[TXGunNut]

Yes Mike, we talked about that little 32-20 awhile back and I've tried some of the things we talked about. It shoots best with fat & soft boolits over a caseful of FFFg but it still comes up a bit short, IMHO. It would probably shoot fine with j-words but I'll use it for trade bait before I do that.
Hadn't considered the HB approach, I think the BP and soft lead are bumping it up enough but that's a thought. Thanks.

[Speedo66]

TXGunNut asked, "Ummm...got any pics of your 1873?"
Here's a couple of my 1889 in .38-40, and the vintage Ideal loader I sometimes use:147897147898147899

[northmn]

One thing I will mention. The only rifle I look at with a 25 yard group is my 25 caliber flintlock squirrel rifle that shoots a #3 buckshot pellet. I can get nearly one hole groups with a smoothbore at that range and actually got a 3-4" group at 75 yards with a smooth rifle I built. Ed Harris tested many of the older rifles and found that with the ammo at the time, which he used, not handloads that many would give maybe a 4" group at 100 yards. Generally when shooting rough bores they can behave after a couple of fouling shots, but I would not pay $3,000 for one. As I say I am kind of intrigued by the 73 Winchester and really kind of like the 38-40, but why I cannot say. As I have kind of gone the gammut of frontier style rifles, including BP single shots, which I really like, it would be another world to conquer. But their cost does not intrigue me enough when there are other challenges. You are wise to wait to find one less challenging.

DP

[ajjohns]

I ended up putting one (73, 38/40) together from buying parts on the net. Took a chance on some of it but it turned out great. The barreled action had been sleaved. Hoping the chamber was cut right, that's the biggest chance I took. But, empties come out fine, so, it works. And new rifling in it. Took my time, bought the parts as I could afford, and it shoots great! Carried it last deer season but nothing wanted to stick around long enough for me to make a good shot. Nothing over 50 yards for where I was sitting. But my time will be there for it to all come around. It was fun to put the rifle together, do the wood work, work up a load for it, and go out and shoot! All for much cheaper than buying an Italian, or a full original.

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the pics, Speedo66. Very nice, Ideal loader a nice touch as well. My buddy touched up the crown on his old 73 and it settled down quite a bit. Still not great but at least it stays on an 8.5 X 11 target without trouble.
Still looking for my 1873, just not sure I really want a rifle in that price range.