Don’t run off half cocked!! Or do??

[Alangaq]

So I am looking for some opinions here in regards to lever guns that only have the “half cocked” position as a “safety”.

Does anyone have any objective evidence that carrying a lever gun on “half cock” is a “dangerous” proposition?

Thru various non-scientific experimentation in my garage I have not been able to identify any “unsafe” condition with the half cock position on any of my Winchester or Marlin lever guns, but being the open minded individual that I am, I am of course open to new ideas and information from those that may have more experience in this particular arena………:confused:

[woody1]

So I am looking for some opinions here in regards to lever guns that only have the “half cocked” position as a “safety”.

Does anyone have any objective evidence that carrying a lever gun on “half cock” is a “dangerous” proposition?

Thru various non-scientific experimentation in my garage I have not been able to identify any “unsafe” condition with the half cock position on any of my Winchester or Marlin lever guns, but being the open minded individual that I am, I am of course open to new ideas and information from those that may have more experience in this particular arena………:confused:

Strange this should come up today. While discussing hammer gun safetys, I told my youngest (40 his next birthday) son just today that the best safety is the one between your ears. That said, I have no problem with hammer safety's and the half cock position as long as the hammer is let fully down and then, with finger off trigger, pull the hammer until the sear clicks into the half cock notch. DO NOT LET THE HAMMER DOWN INTO THE HALF COCK NOTCH! Seems a lot of folks don't know this these days but it IS possible for the sear to hang up on the front edge of the half cock notch of the hammer is let down rather than pulled back as I described first. When the trigger is then pulled the rifle will fire. This is not theory. I can do it with a Winchester 94. Don't know that I ever tried with a Marlin. Yes it IS possible to do with a Marlin. The first one I pulled out, AD prefix 336 in 30-30 and I got the sear hung up on the half cock notch. Trigger pulled and hammer dropped. Regards, Woody

[xr650]

IMHO Half cock is the only safety needed on a lever gun.

I get hacked every time I see the stupidcrossbolthammerblockstupidbutton on my Marlins.
Even worse when someone else shoots it and hands it back after engaging said stupidbuttonthingy.

[Bullshop Junior]

Just doent keep it loaded.
BIC/Daniel/BS Jr.

[Lloyd Smale]

been doing it all my life and aint dead or full of holes yet.

[beagle]

Carried a M94 .30/30 for years like that and had no problems. I hate these new safeties on levers./beagle

[PatMarlin]

Good point on the cock safety. I never knew that, but I never let down on it. Always cocked to engage it.

At least Marlin still gives you a cock safety with the button. My 1994 Win 94 only has the button, and that sucks.

[xtimberman]

been doing it all my life and aint dead or full of holes yet.

I'm not so worried about me having a ND with a rifle on half-cock - I'm more concerned about the other fellow having one and shooting me. :???: Most NDs with a rifle or carbine usually send the bullet away from most body parts except the foot - and often into the space of someone else. :roll:

I'm always amazed at how few supposedly knowledgable shooters know how to properly cycle a hammer. Woody1 is absolutely correct about the proper way to engage the half cock, but I still see experienced shooters let hammers down onto the half cock - frequently and improperly on rifles and especially SAAs!

I have a 1893 Marlin, and a couple of older Winchesters that will easily get into the unstable position of the half cock notch noted previously by Woody. I've actually tried to see if I could pull the trigger and discharge two of them - all I got was a healthy dent in the primer - but a moderate blow caused by a drop or a heavy object would no-doubt have done the job.

xtm

[felix]

John, I am sure that if I grew up with the lever guns, I would hate their safeties too. I grew up with bolt guns, and I took them out when installing new triggers into them. I like the cross-bolt safety in the lever guns because my experience with them is zilch when compared to real rifles. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

Ahem.......leverguns ARE real rifles, Felix.

Ya heretic, you! :)

[218bee]

Real rifles??? Why you...
Anyway, I also hate the safeties on the newer Marlins. I've always carried my many levers with the hammer all the way down. No problem. I guess if some critter I wanted to shoot was close he may hear two clicks instead of one but never happened. Just my .02

[dnepr]

Half cock safties are fine if you use your head. The closest I have come to having a problem was while hunting an area known locally as the labyrinth I had the hammer extension on my marlin snag on some thick brush and get pulled to full cock. The underbrush was so thick I had to sling my rifle and use both hands to push my way through. once I was through the underbrush I unslung my rifle and checked it over cleared some twigs that were jambed between the scope and barrel I noticed the hammer at full cock. In all reality this was my fault. I really should have unloaded the rifle before going through there.

[Boomer Mikey]

I didn't like the cross bolt safety either until I had a rifle go off on me (in a safe direction downrange) while emptying a full magazine one day. After that; I put the cross bolt safety on anytime I'm cycling cartridges. Properly applied, the half cock position is reasonably safe but if I was going to put the rifle down, sling it, or make any move with it that could result in the hammer brushing against anything or moving due to inertia I would engage the cross bolt safety if there was a cartridge in the chamber.

Same thing with bolt actions, I want the rifle safety at least in the safe to cycle position until it's use is imminent.

Mechanical and human errors happen too frequently to ignore an additional layer of safety.

The only truly safe rifle is one with nothing in the chamber.

Boomer :Fire:

[BruceB]

After reading this thread yesterday morning before bedtime (I'm on nightshift), I tried the routine of letting the hammer down from full- to half-cock on my Marlin 36 and 336 rifles.

Even after at least twenty attempts with each rifle, I was UNABLE to get the hammers to fall from half-cock with very hard pulls on the triggers.

This does NOT mean that the warning here is wrong! It only means that MY two rifles, on THIS one occasion, did not allow the hammers to fall.

I consider myself well- warned, and will follow the safe procedure outlined in this thread in the future. My experience with lever guns is rather limited, and I wasn't aware of this possible risk until yesterday. I did know about single-action revolvers, however.

Thanks, guys.

[Bret4207]

I never heard that about the half cock before. Interesting. Thanks.

BTW- all this half cock nonsense is a mute point when you use a REAL LEVERGUN!!! Savages don't have this problem. In fact, Savge 99's don't have ANY problems!!!:mrgreen:

[725]

Great thread. Good, and new to me, info on half-cock procedures. This exchange of info is priceless. Generally with movement, ie. through the woods, brush, climbling rocks, etc., I like an empty chamber. Really, how important is it to have a loaded chamber when movement has already betrayed your presence? The game will notice you for sure anyway, and the movement of using the lever is minor compared to dragging your boots hither and yon. Safeties, crossbolt, action block, interruptors, etc. are just mechanical things made by man. At some point with wear, poor design, accident, poor application, age, etc., they will fail. As mentioned, the best safety remains between your ears and not elsewhere. A combat soldier has different concerns than a hunter. He may need a loaded chamber where we hunters don't. Sitting in a blind or hide? Loaed 'em up, put the safety on, and be sure of your target. Great discussion!!

[PatMarlin]

I just remembered last night my dad showing me how to use the half cock and not to let down on it from full.

Now I know why I always had... :Fire:

I think the button is a good idea really. It's just awkward for an old lever user to get used to, and you forget it's there. At least I do.

I like having them both on my guide gun.

[Maineboy]

I have an 1895 manufactured 1894 Winchester that will fire a cartridge when the hammer is in the half cocked position and the trigger is pulled. It takes a bit of effort, but it will do it everytime. I don't know if there is alot of wear and tear to the gun, or if other very early 1894s will do the same thing. It was pretty scary the first time it happened.

[dnepr]

I never heard that about the half cock before. Interesting. Thanks.

BTW- all this half cock nonsense is a mute point when you use a REAL LEVERGUN!!! Savages don't have this problem. In fact, Savge 99's don't have ANY problems!!!:mrgreen:

I see I am not the only person who likes 99's

[Uncle R.]

I like them, I sometimes use them, but I'm convinced that traditional (half-cock safety only) exposed hammer guns are dangerous - at least in the hands of some people. I've seen several ADs over the years as people tried to let down the hammer, cock the hammer, unload the rifle, etc. etc. Cold, numb fingers (common here in Wisconsin) certainly add to the risk.
<
The danger of brush pulling the hammer to full cock, while perhaps small, is real - it happened to me once and it's a spine-tingling thing to unsling the rifle and find it cocked and ready to fire.
<
Fortunately, I'VE never had an AD from this cause, and none of those I've witnessed resulted in injury except the most recent. (I've met two people who were severely injured by model 94 ADs but I didn't witness the events.) Just a few months ago I watched a fellow trying to lower the hammer on a '94 to half-cock leave a huge smoking hole a few inches from his toes. He also drove the hammer spur into his thumb, leaving a nice bloody gash. Coulda' been a lot worse I suppose...
<
I recognize the human negligence involved when injury occurs - there's simply no excuse for pointing a loaded weapon at an innocent person. The most important safety is the one between your ears - but I've seen easily more ADs from lever rifles than all others combined. It makes you think...
Uncle R.

[44man]

Any gun with a half cock can fire if dropped on the hammer and the end of the trigger shears off or the tip of the half cock breaks. More common with a revolver because there is no stock in the way.
The best thing about the Marlin crossbolt is that you can dry fire the gun on it. If you dry fire on the firing pin, the pin can break with the first time.
Since it is VERY hard to drop a rifle on the hammer, I consider the half cock safe.
It also works if you release from full cock and RELEASE the trigger before the half cock is reached. That is where a problem can happen and the trigger can catch on the edge of the half cock if the trigger is not released.
But ANYTIME a hammer is touched with a loaded gun, it can slip, whether letting it all the way down and then pulling it to half cock or not. Keep the muzzle safe and all is well.

[Alangaq]

Great information guys and thanks a bunch. As most of these rifles will be spending the majority of their time in the field riding on the front of an ATV, the chambers will be empty anyway. But when I go hunting, hiking, tromping around or looking for the fishing hole, I will continue to use the half-cock over a loaded chamber and mind my muzzle!

In regards to “unloading” the lever guns, I have been using what I call the “never in the chamber” technique………… No doubt there is a more accurate term to describe this, but that is the best I can come up with at the moment. Anyway, wit the Winchester 94’s that I have and also the Marlin’s, I simply lower the lever full travel, and then bring it back up just enough that the cartridge comes free of the carrier but does not get pushed into the chamber by the bolt. Then it is just a matter of rotating, or “flipping over” the rifle to allow the cartridge to drop out into your hand without ever having to chamber and then eject a loaded round. I know this is not exactly a “revelation” or some never before seen technique, but it just seems to make good sense to me and nearly eliminates the possibility of an accidental discharge while unloading the lever action rifles. Of course with everything under the sun there is a “trade off” and in this case, it is muzzle position. In that to prevent the cartridge from sliding into the chamber on its own, the muzzle must be pointed slightly above the horizontal. So obviously this requires a safe direction in which to point the thing.

I have only witnessed four AD’s and fortunately none of them resulted in injury. Each and every one of them was due to a finger pulling on a trigger! Two of the four were “safety failures” in the sense that the shooter “thought” the safety was properly engaged when it was not, and yes, this obviously would NOT have been a problem had the shooters obeyed the golden rule of not having your finger in the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot. The other two instances came about as the shooter “repositioned” for the shot and left the trigger finger inside the trigger guard with the safety off. One of the latter was a young lady learning to shoot a Winchester 94 in 30/30 at the local shooting range. In this particular case I think that excessive and incorrect instruction was to blame, as the poor gal had no less that three “instructors” offering advise and providing instruction all at once. Literally one on each side of her, and one directly behind her all jabbering at once while she had a loaded and cocked rifle in her hands…………….I can attest that after that rifle went “bang” and the young lady screamed, jumped and dropped the rifle onto the table, the jaw jabbering and pie hole flapping abruptly ceased! :roll: