Thoughts on 380 pistols

[SeabeeMan]

My friends wife sent me, him, and 1 other guy away for the day with a few hundred bucks and told us to take him go carting or something. We got there only to find out they were booked so we went shooting instead! It was a good time to put hands on and rounds through some of the 380 pistols I've been considering to replace my LC9 for daily carry. I love the LC9, I just want something a bit smaller. My wife had already approved the $300 or so purchase of an LCP and I had planned to leave with one that day.

Basically: You get what you pay for. I've always had great luck finding an incredible value in the lower price ranges. My LC9 is awesome and I would take it over any 9mm I have ever shot, except of course the Beretta 92, which I inexplicably fell in love with while carrying it in the service. Same goes for my Marlin XL7, Mossberg 835, and many others. All guns that shoot far outside their price range.

Not the case here. I shot the LCP, LC380, Glock 42, Sig P238, and the Pico. I put 200 rounds downrange with them and I figured I'd share my thoughts. All groups were at 20 feet with 2 magazines of 12 rounds. I also held the Bodyguard 380 and Mustang, but wasn't impressed/intrigued enough to put range bought ammo through them.

Ruger LCP: Too small. I could really only get a finger and a half below the trigger guard and the sights were very difficult to acquire. The trigger pull was long but better than my LC9 originally (it's had a the trigger upgrade.) The recoil was very "jumpy" and it was difficult to bring the gun back inline for a second shot. Roughly 6" group.

LC380: Sized the same as the LC9 and I wouldn't call the recoil significantly less. Not sure why you'd even buy this gun vs the LC9. That said, a nice gun. Groups were 3-4"

Pico: Just as small as the LCP...too small. Better sights though. The 3 dots helped immensely and the grouping was 3-4".

Glock 42: I think I actually said "wow" after the first trigger pull. I've never been a big fan of Glocks. They're great pistols and bombproof, just not my bad. This little thing is a whole different story. The Glock "boxiness" works on this thing without making it seem to blocky. Nothing protrude or has odd proportions and it just feel good in the hand. The gun comes up nicely and settles right on target without any extra movement. The trigger pull wasn't overly long but there was some distance to it...what I would expect on a concealed carry pistol. The sights worked very well and I really like the goal-post & dot design of them. Groups were 2.5" with 12 rounds. I was already trying to decide if I would leave with the Glock and ask for forgiveness later.

P238: If I thought the Glock was significantly better than the others, the P238 was that much again. The first shot actually surprised me a bit with the shot and crisp trigger pull, which is similar to the 2 stage trigger on my AR, just heavier on the break. There was very little take-up and it broke cleanly, which I wasn't ready for after shooting the other pistols. First shot was dead center in the bullseye and the next 11 followed, completely cutting out the red 1" bullseye and leaking over a bit into the 9 ring. The entire group was under 2" and the pistol was an absolute joy to shoot. The gun tended to recoil straight back more so than flipping the barrel up. After shooting this one, all other 380 pistols are out of contention and I need to find another $400 to foot the $700 price tag on the SIG.

I'm very glad I didn't buy the LCP without putting rounds through it. The biggest problem with this trip was I tried out a Sig 1911 Scorpion TB with an Osprey 45 Suppressor...which is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on if you don't get to play with machine guns anymore. This was an indoor range and the slide going back into battery was one of the loudest noises you could hear. We put the target at 75 feet and you could actually hear the bullet hit the paper.

[birch]

I have owned or shot just about all of the little guys. I have carried a lcp for almost two years and trust it with my life. I have tried every factory load, and every handload I could muster, and have never had a malfunction of any kind. I even tried little more that a primer and it ejected. I chose reliability over comfort.

I bought the Sig 238 for my wife to carry for all the reasons above and all the reasons you stated. Plus it has a manual safety which my wife insisted be on her carry piece.

If you look closely, you can find a 238 on the used market for 450-500 dollars. I don't think a person could damage a 238 under normal circumstances in a lifetime or two of shooting--maybe a recoil spring change.

My vote--ruger lcp or Sig 238.

I also rejected the bodyguard mostly because smith thought it a good idea to make barrels out of powdered metal.

[SeabeeMan]

I should add a thought to the LCP: All of my issues were because of the size of my hands. I could see if being a great gun if you can get a good grip on it. That would most likely have solved my issue with the recoil as well.

[Walkingwolf]

Kahr makes a seven shot 380 that is slimmer than the G42, and holds seven plus one. Price range is usually around 300 dollars discounted. People that have the smaller six shot version love them. The seven would give room for an extra finger, the slim profile would make the gun more pocket able than the G42. CT380 slide width .75, G42 slide width .94.

Plus until September Kahr will mail an extra magazine as a rebate for the purchase of a c-series gun.

[SeabeeMan]

Walkingwolf, I'll have to check that out. I think one of the little LGS' around here have Kahr sometimes.

[Bonz]

I have carried the Ruger LCP 380 for years now but never carried a round in the chamber because the hammer "pre-cocks" when you chamber a round. I just purchased one of the newly designed S&W Bodyguard 380 and now use that for my EDC when its too hot for a vest, jacket, etc

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, the SIG P-238. The 380 ACP gets downright docile and tractable when housed in a locked-breech platform. The 380's recoil in a blowback pistol isn't much different than that of most locked-breech 9mm pistols, so for my use I always opted for the 9mm over the 380 for social venues......and since most 9mm smallpistoles also come chambered in 40 S&W, well......

The best 380 ACP I ever fired was my ex-wife's Colt Government Model 380, hands down. The SIG P-238 inherits most of that pistol's positive aspects--locked breech, 1911A1 controls regimen/placement, great looks, reliable and accurate functioning, tractable attitude. My view--the P-238 is worth the extra coin.

[Uncle Jimbo]

Nice write up rich kildow. Wish I would have been there to enjoy the day.

[SeabeeMan]

Thanks! This was all at Fireline in Rice Lake, WI. It's a fairly new place but VERY nice. It's clean, has all the requisite accessories and they carry moderate to high priced reloading stuff, including ETR-7! Their gun prices are all in what I would consider fair retail range for a brick and mortar store. Obviously deals can be had online for just about everything. They were quick to tell me a few times that they'll special order anything I want, including reloading components.

It was actually my first time ever paying to shoot as well as ever shooting at an indoor range. I've worked with a few of their employees on various things in the past and the gentleman who helped us was very respectful while still making sure he said what he needed to. I don't know how it works at other ranges, but here you pay a $22 lane fee and $15 rental fee. The latter amounts to buying into the entire rental pool, which consists 30 or more pistols of various calibers, some of which are suppressed. Sig, Ruger, FN, Glock, Colt, Beretta, and others are all up for grabs. They also have 2 AR's, one of which is suppressed. You buy their ammo, which is all fairly priced. A box of 50 380 was 20.99, 45 was 15.99 (I think), and 223 was 20 for 7.99. You are free to pick up your brass and take them as long as you don't cross the firing line. If you're done with 1 gun, simply drop the mag, insert the chamber flag, which I think was weed whacker line, and bring it back out. Being a member, of which they have many different levels and discounts for LEO/military/vet brings the prices down to $15 and $8, respectively, and a 5% discount on everything except firearms. You get your rental fee back if you purchase a gun.

My only complain would be that a few of their employees seem to think that the slightest mention of military experience is the starting shot for a genitalia measuring contest. I've seen this a few times with 3 different guys there. That's easy enough to ignore though and I've just learned to play stupid...heck, I might just learn something that way!

[oldcanadice]

Uh: 9.3 From the Ruger site. "The strong locked breech action of the RUGER® LCP TM utilizes a tilting barrel design in which the barrel and slide are locked together at the moment of firing." It isn't a blowback. Mine works like a charm.

[pjames32]

I like my LCP and carry it most of the time. Learning to grip the gun s a challenge, but with practice becomes more natural. I have recently purchased a Rohrbaugh R9s (no longer in production). This is a 9mm (no +P) and is the same size as the LCP. Once I'm acclimated this will become my regular pocket carry piece. YMMV
PJ

[Bored1]

Before you buy the P238 Try a P938. A really good friend of mine had the P238, and loved it. He ended up getting a 938 for his wife and after my girlfriend tried the 238 & 938 she decided on the 938. The P938 is a GREAT little gun! If you look at Summitgunbroker you Wont pay near the 700$ price tag for either and he's an awfully nice guy to deal with! Just my 2 cents.

[SeabeeMan]

Bored1, I didn't even know that was out there. If it shoots like the P238, it may be a winner!

[BCall]

Wideners is advertising P238's for $490.

[Bored1]

The p938 is essentially the same gun as the 238 except 9mm. I did a ton of price checking everywhere for the 938 before I bought one, and found summitgunbroker has the best prices BY FAR. CHECK here: http://summitgunbroker.com/sig-sauer.html

no advertised price, however will send you one in an email. Something about Sig getting PO'd about selling them lower than they say you can. Not sure if its a marketing gimmic or not, but He beat every price I could find at the time by well over 100$ and that was after shipping and transfer fees!

[snowwolfe]

I been really happy with both my LCP's but maybe don't know what I am missing ? The LCP's are easy to shoot well at 10 yards or under and neither have ever jammed or failed to feed.

[Bored1]

Don't get me wrong the 238 is a great gun, however the 938 is just AWESOME. 9mm makes everything so much easier in my opinion with brass, loading etc. I inherited the girlfriends old Taurus 738 when we got her the sig, and while I'm happy with it, comparing the Taurus to that 938 is like comparing a steak dinner with all the trimmings to a bologna sandwich. Will you be full when its all said and done, yep, but you'll enjoy the steak meal a whole lot better!!!!!

[jcren]

somewhat larger than most of these, but recently got a bersa thunder and have been pleasantly surprised by the quality and accuracy of the gun. Plus, it has a nice gentle lead that is very boolit friendly!

[ProfGAB101]

Near the same size class as the Bersa Thunder is perhaps the best of the budget 380's - The Makarov.

DA start with SA follow up, 8+1 capacity, all steel, hammer drop safety. Fixed barrel can be replaced with an extended threaded unit for suppressor use and the suppressor can be smaller since it will not need a recoil booster.

I bought mine full retail when the market was still flooded with them for $149 plus local sales tax.

Prior to this I had a Walther PPK/S Stainless and I could have almost bought 4 Makarov's for what that Walther cost, and the PP/PPK/PPK-s all lack a thumb slide release. The Walther was NOT fun to shoot and was an ammo snob, very picky.

[fecmech]

I've owned and carried the Ruger LCP and Keltec P3at. Both are very snappy to shoot and require some practice to master IMO. They are not target guns but simply a tool to save your butt. That said they are both truly pocket pistols that you can carry in your pocket and forget they are there. I think the glock 42 (I've handled and shot one) is not a pocket gun, too bulky. Both it and the Sig P238 are in the 18-20 ounce class fully loaded, that weighs a pocket down pretty good. My KT is 11.5 oz. fully loaded and the LCP adds an ounce to that. That is the main reason they are so snappy to shoot. To my mind I want something ALWAYS with me and these little guns fill the bill. If you have to carry it in a holster then you have to think about it all the time and what you're wearing. I think the bigger .380's are holster guns (that's just my thinking) and if I'm going to wear a holster it will be with a compact 9mm or .40. The Kahr .380 is as slim and trim as the KT and Ruger and only about 3.5 oz. heavier. It has excellent sights and as comfortable to shoot as the Glock 42. I personally think the Kahr .380 is the best compromise between pocket carry and shootability. Just my ramblings on the subject

[9.3X62AL]

Uh: 9.3 From the Ruger site. "The strong locked breech action of the RUGER® LCP TM utilizes a tilting barrel design in which the barrel and slide are locked together at the moment of firing." It isn't a blowback. Mine works like a charm.

I made no mention of the Ruger pistol or system.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm going to provide the counter point in this thread.

There was a time when a person seeking a small concealable pistol had fewer choices than now. I once recommended .380 autos to people seeking a small, concealable pistol for self defense but I no longer consider the .380 auto to be the best choice to fit that need.
Before everyone gets the tar & feathers out, allow me to say that there are some very good pistols chambered in .380 auto but we now have small pistols chambered in 9mm that were not available 20 years ago. I just do not believe the .380 is still the best choice.

The .380 is about as high as one can go in terms of cartridge power and still use a simple blowback design. That was its strength in the days when the Walther PPK, SIG P230 and other designs ruled the small pistol market. There were some excellent .380 pistols available but no larger calibers in the same size of pistol. That has now changed. We have Kahr's, baby Glocks, Rugers, and other pistols chambered in 9mm Luger that are no larger than the .380 autos available in the past.
If I had a good .380 pistol that I liked; I would certainly continue to use that gun but I would not go out a buy a pistol chambered in .380 auto these days.
The difference in power between a .380 auto and the 9mm Luger is significant. The.380 auto is no slouch but the 9mm is far superior in terms of terminal ballistics. The advantage was the smaller size of the .380 pistols but that edge is now gone.

As for recoil, I just don't think it's an issue with either of those cartridges. As for the "snappyness" of the 9mm, whatever that is?,....it's just not an issue with a subcompact self-defense pistol.

I don't think the .380 is dead but I don't think it has the allure it once did.

[SeabeeMan]

My whole reason for looking at 380 was the size. None of them compared to the 380's when size and quality (which is completely subjective) were balanced, but I didn't know about the 938. I'm hoping to get back down there to shoot it this week.

[9-toes]

It took the Pearce LCP Grip extension and the Pachmayr Grip Glove to get the handling issues worked out for me. A stiffer spring from Wolf to help with some of the snap and keep the brass in the same zip code. Match it with Ranch Dog's excellent TL358-100-RF and it becomes a little hummer. Wish the trigger was a bit better but then I knew it wasn't meant for target work.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

My whole reason for looking at 380 was the size. None of them compared to the 380's when size and quality (which is completely subjective) were balanced, but I didn't know about the 938. I'm hoping to get back down there to shoot it this week.
when you do look at the P938 models look at the SAS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppEc0LMorQc

[Petrol & Powder]

Considering the intended use of that type of pistol, the Kahr PM9 has a lot going for it. No safety to dig into your side, No safety to disengage and just as safe when you stop pulling the trigger as it was before you started pulling the trigger. Slim, lightweight, rust resistant, rounded edges and simple. These guns aren't about shooting, these guns are about fighting.

[warf73]

I'm going to provide the counter point in this thread.

There was a time when a person seeking a small concealable pistol had fewer choices than now. I once recommended .380 autos to people seeking a small, concealable pistol for self defense but I no longer consider the .380 auto to be the best choice to fit that need.
Before everyone gets the tar & feathers out, allow me to say that there are some very good pistols chambered in .380 auto but we now have small pistols chambered in 9mm that were not available 20 years ago. I just do not believe the .380 is still the best choice.

The .380 is about as high as one can go in terms of cartridge power and still use a simple blowback design. That was its strength in the days when the Walther PPK, SIG P230 and other designs ruled the small pistol market. There were some excellent .380 pistols available but no larger calibers in the same size of pistol. That has now changed. We have Kahr's, baby Glocks, Rugers, and other pistols chambered in 9mm Luger that are no larger than the .380 autos available in the past.
If I had a good .380 pistol that I liked; I would certainly continue to use that gun but I would not go out a buy a pistol chambered in .380 auto these days.
The difference in power between a .380 auto and the 9mm Luger is significant. The.380 auto is no slouch but the 9mm is far superior in terms of terminal ballistics. The advantage was the smaller size of the .380 pistols but that edge is now gone.

As for recoil, I just don't think it's an issue with either of those cartridges. As for the "snappyness" of the 9mm, whatever that is?,....it's just not an issue with a subcompact self-defense pistol.

I don't think the .380 is dead but I don't think it has the allure it once did.


I would agree to disagree watch the videos and you will see what I'm talking about. If you want to cut to the chase just watch the 2nd video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&list=PLgNSGOEQko_MjOCGyqlMTiM2njdQQRbdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOwCXXpEP50

[Petrol & Powder]

I will respectfully say that is a good test that pits .380 ammunition against .380 ammunition and comes up with a very good .380 cartridge.
What it doesn't do is test .380 auto against 9mm Luger.

[FergusonTO35]

I have both the Glock 42 and Kahr CT-380. Both are great guns which can digest hot rounds easily. The 42 is a very cast boolit friendly gun. It loves the Lee 356-102-1R sized to .356 with Tac-X. I would have to say the Glock is my favorite of the two because I shoot it a little better and parts and mags are far cheaper and easier to find. Plethora of holsters and aftermarket items out there for it too. The Kahr is a great gun though, and if you like shooting double action revolvers (as I do) the Kahr trigger pull will be a natural for you.

I'm not a huge fan of Kel-Tec/LCP size guns in .380 Auto. More recoil and diminished velocity with the short barrel. The .32 Auto is the ne plus ultra cartridge for a true pocket pistol. I love my Kel-Tec P32, and shoot it fast with good accuracy. I load it with a 76 grain LFP from an Accurate mold at a chrono'd 886 fps. 7+1 rounds on board and I can hide it anywhere. If the P32 gets lost, damaged, or pirated I can replace it for less than $250.00.

[SeabeeMan]

I went and put hands on the p938 today and it is almost exactly the same size as my LC9, minus the tapered slide and magazine grip extension. Since the whole reason for looking at 380 was to get smaller, I'm now a bit torn. I LOVED the P239 but the selling point is the size. I also love my LC9 and my new holster just arrived, a StealthGear Onyx. I'm going to put that holster through it's paces for a few weeks and if that doesn't convince me to keep the LC9, I'll go grab the P239.

[Petrol & Powder]

Allow me to make it clear that I am not disparaging the .380 cartridge, I think it is a fine cartrdge and there are some fine guns chambered for it. I just don't think that guns chambered in .380 hold the edge in that class (small pistols) anymore.
A 9mm Luger projectile starts out with a little more weight and velocity. That translates into more energy and penetration. If you take that greater peneratration and use a well designed hollow point to control that pentration you can get a larger expanded bullet (more frontal area = larger wound channel = more damage) with acceptable penetration (that optimal 12" -18" of penetration). When you can achieve that improved performance in a package that is the same size as most .380 pistols, there is little incentive to use a smaller cartridge.

[Southerngunner]

146890146891146892First let me go on record and say that I was never a fan of the 380 cartridge or the pistol that fired it. That was until I saw and bought the Kimber Micro carry in 380. I have always been a fanatic about 1911 style pistols so the little Kimber fit in nicely with my mindset. After running several hundred trouble free rounds through it this little pistol has been a constant companion in a pocket holster as it disappears in a pair of cargo shorts. The accuracy is very good and with the current selection of defensive ammo available I feel that it will do fine. Because any gun that you have with you is better than a cannon that you leave at home .

[M-Tecs]

My LCP loaded with Buffalo Bore 100 grain https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127 is always with me even if I am carry a full size gun. I am 6' 4" and 2XL gloves are tight. I really like my LCP.

[Blackwater]

Some great and very observant posts here. On this subject, I'm of the opinion that there really are no "wrong" answers, except maybe for someone with really large hands trying to shoot a pistol that's just too small to hit with. For me, at least, it's really a matter of what gun you can shoot accurately and quickly with. Whatever that size happens to be is that particular shooter's "minimum size gun."

For many years, I carried a little early Freedom Arms mini revolver in .22 LR. I always figured it'd be useful only when someone was at arm's length or less, and then, mostly with a contact wound, with muzzle pressed against the flesh. Shoved into the abdomen, and the trigger pulled, the muzzle blast will probably do as much or maybe more damage inside the body cavity as the little bullet. it'd darn sure get an assailant's attention. The problem was, a friend of mine could shoot pecans with it at about 20 ft. or so, and I was a bit iffy at a coke can! He has very large fingers that just happened to fit the curve behind the spur trigger just right. The little FA was accurate, but I just wan't past about 15 ft. with it.

Then I got a little Kel Tec .32. This was a big step up from the little mini-revolver. I shot it pretty well, and even out at 25 yds., I wouldn't have wanted me shooting at me, Out to 15, I was pretty sure of a head shot. At 10, I was sure. I used it to kill several rattleshakes, and just missed a beaver that was tearing a pond dam up. The beaver was out at near 50 yds. That spongy trigger just wasn't conducive to really good shooting, but it served its purpose as a last ditch, close in defensive gun.

Next, I went and tried 4 or 5 different little "pocket guns" in .380, and the one that felt best in my hand, and had the most controllable trigger, turned out to be a little Taurus TP-738, I believe it's called. It has proven to be a revelation for me. That trigger doesn't have the mushy feel of most of the others, and it was very controllable in the shop, so .... that was my choice. It's really worked out better than I expected, too. It shoots dead on to the sights, is easily concealed in a pocket, which is my favorite method of carry, and is amazingly accurate. I don't think I'll be challenging anyone with a K-38, or such, but I bet it'll startle or at least surprise many shooters of bigger guns. I've chalked up 4 rattlers to its credit, all head shots, with no misses at ranges of usually around 6 ft. or so. It won't take a head off like a .45 can, but it'll do in a pinch, and it seems I usually see them when I'm not expecting to - kind'a like 2 legged bad guys. I've been very impressed with my little Taurus, and if anyone is looking for a neat little, shootable sub-compact gun for the pocket or purse, I'd recommend they take a gander at this little gun. It's really surprised me.

But that is ONLY if it fits their particular hand, though! Little guns need to be shot even more precisely than the big ones, and have less power to apply, so the BIG issue is really "What can I make the hit with," rather than what pleases the eye most, or is cheapest, or any other issue. In a real world event, none of that other stuff will matter, and what you can place a bullet with WILL. Carrying a gun doesn't guarantee survival. All it can do is give you a fighting chance. That beats being a defenseless victim all to heckengone!

If your pockets or other preferred carry method allows, by all means go with a bigger gun. They're easy to shoot, more powerful, have larger magazines, and tend to make bad guys hesitate more effectively (but never completely) when they see the size of the gun, and that ain't no small thing when you're confronted with a real situation. Little ones are more likely to HAVE to be used, and that being so, you really have to make the shots good ones. Always keep a couple of shots for close, near contact head shots. Even a .22 to the brain pan is a pretty quick stopper.

That's my take on it, anyway. Fit to the hand and trigger action is the criteria I make my judgment calls on this issue with. YMMV.

[Petrol & Powder]

Blackwater, there's a lot of value in what you posted. While any gun is better than no gun, there's a distinct limit to how small one can practically go. Diminutive size is great for convenience and concealment but difficult to shoot. If the tool is not accessible when the need arises it will not matter how good the tool is. The truth that we all know is that bigger guns are easier to shoot but harder to conceal & carry. Like most things in life, compromise is part of the process.

I've had some small guns in the past that "fit" really well and as you point out, fit is important.
I had a couple of Walther PPK .380's and a SIG P230. The Walther was easier to conceal and I could shoot it well but I could always shoot the SIG a little better.
I had a Remington model 51 (the original 1930's model) that pointed perfectly and was super thin but wasn't reliable with hollow points. I didn't have the time or money to sort it out. However a Colt model 1908 was rock solid reliable but it didn't point as well for me.
You have to go with what works.

In the end, the best survival tool is located between your ears.

[KnotRight]

The only 2 380s that I own is a Walther PPK that is too heavy and a KelTec P3AT that I keep in my front pocket all the time. As fecmech said that they are snappy, that can be changed if you reload your own ammo. I have no problems shooting the KelTec out to 7 yards. What the gun was designed to do. You can pick one up for $275 or less. The gun will eat anything that went into the magazine.

The main thing is, the gun is easy to carry day or night, in hot or cold weather.

[Mytmousemalibu]

For lighter dress, I tuned the new model M&P Bodyguard .380 non-laser model that isn't too bad of a little gun. I wasn't a fan of the trigger as it comes so I stuck the full array of goodies in it from Galloway Precision. The RTK trigger, full spring kit, tool steel firing pin and a couple Mag-Guts kits. It's pretty dang nice for such a small light package now and I like that it is a short-recoil action, not a blowback. I wished it came that nice from S&W though. I keep it loaded with Lehigh XP's, that round in testing videos really seems to give the .380 some ballistics to stand on.

[Southerngunner]

My LCP loaded with Buffalo Bore 100 grain https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127 is always with me even if I am carry a full size gun. I am 6' 4" and 2XL gloves are tight. I really like my LCP.
I know what you mean I am 6'2" and have been called a knuckle dragger because of my long arms and big hands but my little Kimber works fine and it has a great trigger good sights and is reliable with everything that I have put through it. I have been shooting the 1911 style pistol for so long I was instantly comfortable with the Micro. I have many other pistols to carry but the Kimber is always in my pocket even if another gun is on my belt.

[FergusonTO35]

My best carry gun is my Glock 26, however it just doesnt work in t-shirt weather. I can't shoot a 9mm smaller than the 26 without watering down the ammo to .380 power level. I can shoot the Glock 42 and Kahr CT-380 just fine even with Buffalo Bore equivalent loads and they conceal alot more easily. I have no interest in expanding bullets for this cartridge so that kind of velocity is not necessary. Good FMJ or my own boolit reloads will get the job done so thats what I carry in my .380's.

[Multigunner]

The Walther PPK and Bersa Thunder are very user friendly concealable handguns.
My FN1922 is a very nice pistol, but frankly the old Browning design has its drawbacks.
Very few of the modern auto loaders impress me that much, I'd much rather have a good old steel frame pistol made by a crew of skilled craftsmen using old style machining and heat treat methods.

The 9X19 is definitely a more effective cartridge but to get any real range advantage the 9X19 requires a larger heavier platform unless lightweight alloys or plastics are used.
Once at a range two guys were trying out a pair of bob cat .45 pistols, the very short cut down 1911 type. They were getting jams every few shots. I figured out the problem for them, The light weight pistols were moving too much in recoil causing short stroking. A very lightweight locked breech pistol firing a substantial cartridge must be held a lot more firmly than a .380 blowback of the same size and weight. Thats been a problem for some Glock users.

[Mytmousemalibu]

My best carry gun is my Glock 26, however it just doesnt work in t-shirt weather. I can't shoot a 9mm smaller than the 26 without watering down the ammo to .380 power level. I can shoot the Glock 42 and Kahr CT-380 just fine even with Buffalo Bore equivalent loads and they conceal alot more easily. I have no interest in expanding bullets for this cartridge so that kind of velocity is not necessary. Good FMJ or my own boolit reloads will get the job done so thats what I carry in my .380's.

If you haven't seen or heard of the Lehigh Defense XP bullet, you might have a look. They are a machined solid copper bullet, shaped like a flat nose FMJ but with flutes cut into it. Penetrates like an FMJ but does long track hollow point like damage. Nothing to fail, nothing to clog or fail to expand, barrier blind, etc. If i'm carrying the .380 the XP is the only bullet i'll entrust my life with. As a plus, You can now buy the bullets only and load them yourself. Underwood also loads the XP but a little hotter than Lehigh's factory rounds. I have no skin in this game but I think anyone that has a .380 for self defense should have a look at the XP. A good American company too!

Very interesting ammo test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw

[Rick Hodges]

I just don't understand that guys obsession with "grossly over penetrating". Two holes are better than one. Yes the bullet may cause damage behind the target. He absolutely disqualified bullets in the earlier tests that went over 18" and now they are acceptable with the Lehigh?
I wonder if he is sponsored? Hmmmm?
For the record I think the max. limit on penetration is BS. I don't care if it did originate with the FBI.
I have no idea what happens in ballistic gel but I think it was interesting that the damage looked like an arrow broadhead with 3 blades cut it...with all the bullets.

[Petrol & Powder]

Based on what the commentator in that video was saying I wondered about the potential "sponsorship" as well. If he had just said, "here are the results, make your own decisions", I would have felt better about it.
As for the topic of over-penetration, I've never placed a lot emphasis on bullet penetration other that the absolute requirement that the bullet must be capable of penetrating enough to reach something important. I'd rather have too much penetration than not enough.

[Walkingwolf]

I don't worry about all the hype. There are no substantiating stats that overpenetration has been a problem. On top of that I don't trust anybodies opinion on the matter, I do my own testing using bags of damp manure. What I found was that once a non HP penetrated through a bag that it dropped to the ground within a few feet. Less energy than tossing a rock.

I personally spotting on a SASS line have been hit by ricochets, and at most a small bruise. And that is the bullet hitting a swinging steel target and being launched back at me.

Rather than spend a lot of dollars, and looking at Youtube gel videos I prefer to spend my time practicing every day. I can hit a pie tin at forty feet without fail at forty feet, and that is without using the sights. I have been working with the wife until she can do it too, she is at least 75% at this time. But her speed is still a little slow. I also do exercises going through the woods using small trees as the targets at seven yards or more. She follows behind me shooting the same trees I do. I am considering buying her a 22lr when she gets good enough, that is how much confidence I have in accuracy over hype.

Before you tree huggers get upset, we use airsoft replicas for training with the trees. No harm is done to the trees. Airsoft is also used for the pie tins. Actual live fire is done with targets as small as we have around the house. Empty food cans, old paint cans, and the small paper plates.

I have seen wild hogs taken with a 22lr with head shots. Practice more and stop worrying about the hype. If any doubts practice more, and if that does not satisfy your worries, practice more.

[Multigunner]

The Umarex Walther PPKS .177 CO2 BBgun is the perfect trainer for pocket pistols. It has a realistic blowback slide action that creates a felt recoil close to that of a .22RF auto, and the longer duration of that recoil effect makes it feel much like firing a .32 or .380.
The grip of these is longer than that of a PPK and feels much like that of my FN1922. The sight picture, single action pull and sensation of firing is similar to that of a wide range of medium small pocket auto loaders.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I do like the XP round because of everyone's testing videos of that bullet, it does penetrate well and does a substantial amount more damage than an FMJ. I'm not worried about overpenetration to be honest, like stated above, the round will likely have lost the vast majority of its energy if it passed through your assailant. I am however worried about underpenetration and that is a very real concern to me. If i'm going to reduce my margin of firepower I happen to be carrying, it had better be more inline with the best ballistics I can send downrange. Like I also stated, I like that the bullet essentially has no failure mode by design. I'm not one to key into hype about fancy projectiles, like the G2 RIP, that in my eye's is short for G2 rip-off, but the XP has promise. I don't think the FBI/IWBA specs are the end all, be all but they do have merit and they are a good barometer to test against. Now ShootingTheBull being promoted? Don't know. I still like seeing the results and his and other ammo-testers show pretty consistent results with the XP. I do appreciate these guys taking the time and effort to post up these tests though.

[MtGun44]

My wife insists on good sights and a good trigger, on everything, no exceptions. She panned my Keltech P3AT for trigger pull and almost non-existent sights. So, I had a friend let her try is P238 and she was happy. Got one for her, which needed an extractor tension adjustment, but otherwise has been fine, reliable, good trigger, great sights and she likes it and shoots it well.

[warf73]

Went thru about the same thing with my girlfriend (as original poster). She shot everything on the self at the local pistol range (in 380 and 9mm) that was concealable size. She had surgery on her on hand a few years back so she told me when a gun hurt her hand when she shot it. There were a couple of the 380's that hurt like the 9's so design and weight does play a big factor in a pocket sized handgun.
She fell in love with the whole package of the P238, the very close second was the Beretta. She didn’t care for the sights on it, so the Sig was the winner. We looked on GB and got it there, she wanted the Nitron model got it out the door for under $500.

She is closing in on 1000 rounds down range since May 4 of this year. Every time out she gets better and better and she loves to shoot it and carry it. That’s all a guy can ask for in a CC firearm for a loved one.

[Lead Fred]

My anti-gun, libtard sister has been being trained by the state in handgun shooting.
The state was trying to get these women to buy surplus Glock 9mms. The Glocks are too big for her tiny hands.
Not my sis, she got a Sig P238.
She out shoots all of her state employee libtards

[FergusonTO35]

Lead Fred, your sister is anti-gun but carries one on the job? Reminds me of some politicians and celebrities...

Walking Wolf, couldn't have said it better myself. I don't believe that the idea of "carry alot/shoot a little" should ever apply. If someone doesn't want to at least maintain very basic proficiency with a carry gun then they are probably more a danger to themselves and bystanders than to bad guys. Pepperspray and/or a sturdy club would be a far better choice for them. Sadly, alot of these folks work in LE and armed security.

[fecmech]

Practice with these little guns is VERY important. We have an indoor range with turning targets that I practice on. There is an Olympic setting where the targets turn face to you for 2 secs and away for 7 secs then repeat. I took a friend there with his Ruger LCP at 15'. We just hang used 50' .22 Bullseye targets with the back side facing us and try to be on the paper, hopefully centered. His first two mags resulted in one hit on the paper, that really opened his eyes. After some practice he could hit paper most of the time but still had a fair number of misses. Starting with a low gun and the 2 second time limit puts some pressure on as opposed to calmly taking aim and squeezing off a shot. If you ever have to use one of these little suckers you won't be calm and you won't be squeezing that long DA trigger! After some practice it's pretty easy to double tap two targets 5' apart in the 2 second time limit from 15'. Glad I bought the RD 6cav mold, a fellow can go through a lot of .380's like that.

[Blackwater]

Excellent point and advice, fecmec! Any owner of a little .380 mini-gun would do very well to re-read and really absorb what you posted. It really DOES and likely WILL make a big difference. I'm losing what talents I once had, and now need all the practice I can get to shoot quickly AND accurately. Shooting talents are NOT "permanent," and like any skill, require practice. As caster/reloaders, we're lucky we can AFFORD to do that a LOT better than those who can only buy and shoot factory ammo, so there's no real excuse to NOT do all you say. Thanks!

[EMC45]

Good points. I use a 9 inch paper plate or a sheet of 8X11 copy paper as "targets" and do double taps and mag dumps and mag changes to keep "sharp" with my KelTec and DiamondBack DB380.

[LouisianaMan]

Practice with these little guns is VERY important. We have an indoor range with turning targets that I practice on. There is an Olympic setting where the targets turn face to you for 2 secs and away for 7 secs then repeat. I took a friend there with his Ruger LCP at 15'. We just hang used 50' .22 Bullseye targets with the back side facing us and try to be on the paper, hopefully centered. His first two mags resulted in one hit on the paper, that really opened his eyes. After some practice he could hit paper most of the time but still had a fair number of misses. Starting with a low gun and the 2 second time limit puts some pressure on as opposed to calmly taking aim and squeezing off a shot. If you ever have to use one of these little suckers you won't be calm and you won't be squeezing that long DA trigger! After some practice it's pretty easy to double tap two targets 5' apart in the 2 second time limit from 15'. Glad I bought the RD 6cav mold, a fellow can go through a lot of .380's like that.

I, too, appreciate the above post greatly.

Precision fire, high profile adjustable sights, trigger jobs, tight groups, etc., all have their place...but IMO, it's a rather small one when it comes to civilian self-defense with handguns. It's even smaller when we're talking tiny guns in the 8-15 oz. range.

Natural fit, natural pointability, instinctive operation are all far more important, because we're talking life & death situations unfolding with potentially incredible violence and speed. You *may possibly* have time to aim, steadying the gun with both hands, and press the trigger deliberately, but you *almost certainly* will have to fire fast and up close. There's a very good chance you'll wish you had eyes on every side of your head, and a rigid front sight focus is a recipe for most of us mere mortals to develop a heckuva case of tunnel vision at an inopportune time--and our everyday experiences with potential threats show that we humans have a strong tendency towards tunnel vision on the threat anyway. (Reports from people who have faced a lot of lethal force situations generally confirm this tendency.)

So, practice a lot with one hand, with weak hand, up close, and fast. We know that hits to upper CNS and major circulatory system components are the only way to physically stop a BG, but unless he stands there and offers me a stationary, well-lit target, I'm probably going to have to simply shoot fast, trying for solid hits. I'd rather hit him first with a decent hit of any kind than get hit first, period. All indications are that the overwhelming majority of "stops" result from the BG deciding to desist, or panicking, than from precision hits, so my money is likely to be on beginning the process in my favor. I want to hit first, quickly reapply more hits, and get him reacting to me--hopefully. I think that's the specific niche for micros, subcompacts, and snubs.

In deliberate fire w/o stress, we can do a lot to adjust to an ill-fitting, ill-pointing gun and still obtain accurate hits. When it's close and fast, however, we need the gun to be an extension of us & we need it to be reliable. Everything else is gravy.

[Petrol & Powder]

Excellent post LouisianaMan. Thank You!!

There's a difference between training to shoot and training to fight and the tools that excel at those disciplines.
I doubt anyone has ever survived a deadly force encounter and thought, wow that little pistol has "snappy recoil".

All too often people confuse target shooting with gun fighting. Traits that are useful in a target/sporting guns are decidedly harmful in a dedicated concealed carry firearm:

Adjustable sights are not desirable on a SD gun. They are more fragile, tend to be larger, have sharp edges and tend to hang up on clothing. In fact the entire gun needs to have smooth contours.

Double Action Only [DAO] or at least DA first shot is far more user friendly under stress than some type of manual safety & single action first shot. I'm proficient with "cocked and locked" carry and have a lot of experience with it but it is not the best choice for that type of work.

Lightweight construction is important and desirable as long as it does not reduce the gun's durability. You have to be able to practice with it a lot, so it must be durable. The lightweight part is for ease of carry. Recoil is not an issue when the fight is over.
The gun must be reliable above all else. Any reliability rate less than 100% is unacceptable.

It doesn't have to be pretty but it does have to work; plastic, stainless steel, rust resistant finishes and lightweight alloys are desirable. Blued steel and walnut wood can work but so can plastic, stainless steel and aluminum.

* Handguns are like Parachutes *
You bring one along hoping you will not need it
If you need it, you need it right now and nothing else will do
It needs to work 100% of the time and it needs to be simple to operate
If you have to use it and you survive......it was good enough.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

148060Think I'll stick with this one for the time being. Holds lots of Silvertip HPs.

[sparky45]

My Bersa Thunder looks a lot like that one, but I'm most fond of my G42. Doesn't hold as many "silvertips", but it's a serious CCW pistol.

[rking22]

Like your B84, I like mine too, an 84BB :) Not exactly little, but they are light, hold 13 rounds and are plenty accurate! Mine gets fed RD105s with W231, I want all the penetration I can get.

[Uncle Jimbo]

148060Think I'll stick with this one for the time being. Holds lots of Silvertip HPs.


Browning BDA 380. Nice guns. The emblems keep falling out of the grips.:cry:

[LouisianaMan]

148060Think I'll stick with this one for the time being. Holds lots of Silvertip HPs.

Is that a Browning Double Action (BDA)? I think it's essentially the same gun as a Beretta 84BB, which I have owned before. Twice. Both were great guns, but I didn't like the bulk with the double-stack mag. Now, considering the bulkiness of some of the other guns I carry, the 84BB looks pretty darned good in retrospect!!! I wish you hadn't shown that photo, because it has expensive thoughts flowing from my brain to my bank account!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You're pretty close! It's a Beretta 84F. Both were made by Beretta, but the Browning has a closed slide top and usually sells for a bit more on the used market.

[Merick]

I cant speak to the terminal ballistics of the .380, but a handful of .380 brass mixed in with 9mm is not fun. Ergo if reloading is a hassle, practice and carry will also be adversely affected.

[Petrol & Powder]

I cant speak to the terminal ballistics of the .380, but a handful of .380 brass mixed in with 9mm is not fun. Ergo if reloading is a hassle, practice and carry will also be adversely affected.
The only thing more annoying than 380 brass mixed with 9mm brass is 40 S&W brass with 9mm brass in it !

[Rick Hodges]

How about Makarov with 9mm?....ugh.

[pmer]

I have carried the Ruger LCP 380 for years now but never carried a round in the chamber because the hammer "pre-cocks" when you chamber a round. I just purchased one of the newly designed S&W Bodyguard 380 and now use that for my EDC when its too hot for a vest, jacket, etc

I like the S&W Bodygaurd 380 too. Mine is a DAO hammer fired hand gun (no striker mechanism) and it's pretty accurate too. Holds 6 plus one and carries in my pocket or IWB. They have 4 or 5 models of the BG 380 and I think some are striker fired.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_792654_-1_757781_757781_image

[xacex]

I tried the lcp, and glock but ended up buying a Kahr cw380. The trigger is like a dual action revolver, but the darn little thing can shoot with that 2 and a quarter inch barrel. Wife does not like it. She likes the 1911 in 45 acp, but the little Kahr she though she would like was a little obnoxious for her to shoot she says. In the two months I have had it I have shott over 300 rounds out of it mostly cast ranchdog 380 boolits powder coated. Haven't cleaned it yet, and still shooting fine. I think it is time to get the pocket lint out of it now though lol.

[gunauthor]

When I leave the house, I almost always carry a Smith and Wesson 380 Sigma. Nothing fancy, but it beats going without......

[LouisianaMan]

Well, I have had the pleasure of owning a Beretta 84BB in the late '80's and another more recently. Although I loved the on-board capacity, the width of the grips on that double-stacker were a bit much for me. Both were fine guns, however. More recently, I had a P238 which was a beautiful firearm--had to get some work done under warranty, but thereafter it ran just fine. A beautiful weapon and easy to shoot well, but I thought it had a couple of shortcomings: blocky shape, short barrel = loss of velocity, and I just didn't feel totally comfortable carrying it cocked and locked when it was secreted away in pants pockets, waistband, etc. Just didn't feel totally secure with that.

I also owned a 1910 Browning, a real classic pocket pistol. The one that has "stuck," however, is an original Remington Model 51. It's in beautiful shape, slim as can be, and ergonomic before they knew the word! It's 21 oz. and has a semi-locked/delayed blowback action that really acts to tame muzzle flip. Rapid fire provides a fair imitation of a machinegun. Capacity is 7+1, with mag release button right by the trigger guard like the 1911. Smooth, no sharp edges anywhere to cut you or snag clothing. Grips are big enough to hold--a huge help to controlling the weapon in rapid fire. It was advertised as the "self-aiming pistol" due to its pointability, and that's certainly true at short range.

Although the make and model of this classic are irrelevant to your situation, its outstanding points are ones I think worthy of consideration in a modern .380: barrel length adequate to provide velocity and pointability; ergonomics should make its use as instinctive as possible; muzzle flip needs to be minimized in order to maximize rate of fire. Shape and manufacture should provide smooth carry and draw. Capacity is a personal choice, but 6+1 of .380 from a short barrel is a bit light for me. Safety mechanisms, or lack thereof, need to balance safety with speed and instinctive employment. Sights are another decision point. The setup that works beautifully when shooting groups at the range may, or may not, allow for instinctive shooting.

Nobody has a crystal ball. But when you choose a .380, you're consciously choosing a short-range weapon. Therefore, it seems logical that the weapon be optimized for short-range use: pointability, speed of employment, rapidity of fire. JMO.

[Petrol & Powder]

I owned and carried a Remington model 51 (original in 380) years ago. It was a fantastic gun! It pointed perfectly, was about as slim as it could be and it was a work of mechanical art as well. Unfortunately I couldn't get mine to function reliably with HP's and didn't have the time or money to correct that. I traded it on a SIG P230 and regretted the loss of the Remington instantly but the pragmatic need for a functioning small gun outweighed the cool factor at that time. If the Remington had come along at a later point in my life I would still have it.

[Petrol & Powder]

How about Makarov with 9mm?....ugh.

At least the 9x18 cases are often steel :smile:

[LouisianaMan]

I owned and carried a Remington model 51 (original in 380) years ago. It was a fantastic gun! It pointed perfectly, was about as slim as it could be and it was a work of mechanical art as well. Unfortunately I couldn't get mine to function reliably with HP's and didn't have the time or money to correct that. I traded it on a SIG P230 and regretted the loss of the Remington instantly but the pragmatic need for a functioning small gun outweighed the cool factor at that time. If the Remington had come along at a later point in my life I would still have it.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image.jpg11.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image.jpg11.jpg.html)

Yes, a story that hits very close to home, because it's all too familiar! Mine does well with 90g XTP's from Hornady and Fiocchi, CD-FTX's, and 95g Hunters Supply PHP (pentagon hollowpoints). It also does OK with Gold Dots and Golden Sabers. Mostly I shoot handloads, but it's gone through a box or so of commercial ammo in each of these--more from Hornady, which seems to keep both ammo and components available somehow, when nobody else can. OEM mag is flawless, but with Triple-K aftermarkets I load 7 instead of 8 when carrying. Problems at the range sometimes when loaded with 8. I also got an OEM mag off of GB that barely holds 7, and won't insert with 7 unless slide is locked back--then it works fine. Otherwise, it's good for only 6.

[TXGunNut]

Been carrying a P3AT for quite some time, takes a long time to wear down the finish but I'm getting a good start on it. That is one tough finish. It's neglected, has lint in the action (and probably the barrel) but it gets called to action for varmints and feral dogs now and then. It works. The LCP wasn't available when I bought my P3AT, it would probably be my choice now.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

The only thing more annoying than 380 brass mixed with 9mm brass is 40 S&W brass with 9mm brass in it !

there i was thinking 40 S&W brass mixed in with 45 ACP brass that's annoying

[SheepDogAlpha]

I am a large man (6'6 315) with large hands. I have a Sig p232 and I absolutely love it. It is comfortable to shoot and hits its mark every time. It is also a smaller frame gun which allows me to conceal carry very easily. Unfortunately they run around $600 used from my research, but its a well made gun.

[LouisianaMan]

there i was thinking 40 S&W brass mixed in with 45 ACP brass that's annoying
Believe me, you weren't the only one thinking that!

OK, so I'll offer one: sorting a mixture of .380 ACP (9x17); .38 S&W (9x20R); 9mm Parabellum (9x19); and 9mm Browning Long (9x20SR). The only way to improve that would have been to throw in some 9x18 Makarov and .38 Short Colt (9x19R).

I'm going now to count tiles on the bathroom floor....

[jcren]

Last batch of 45 acp had several 45gap mixed in.

[LouisianaMan]

I am a large man (6'6 315) with large hands. I have a Sig p232 and I absolutely love it. It is comfortable to shoot and hits its mark every time. It is also a smaller frame gun which allows me to conceal carry very easily. Unfortunately they run around $600 used from my research, but its a well made gun.

SDA,
Mighty glad you're a sheepdog, not a wolf! An opponent built like you is the worst nightmare scenario for any .380 ACP carrier, and the best argument for hardcast flatpoints or FMJ!

When I carry a .380, which is perhaps 10% of the time, I candy-stripe the 8 rounds with PHP followed by LFN. A double-tap hopefully scores 1 of each, and a magazine dump hopefully 4 of each. Of course, such a compromise might mean I get only half of what I need in any given case, but I figure that there are too many variables anyway, and that carrying a .380 is a major compromise in the first place.

Typically I carry two if I carry one, so I'm likely to also have a Terrier on board loaded with a warm 200g LSWC at a true 600. Given a choice, that's what I would try first in such a case, as it's good for 5-6 milk jugs full of water. In my experience, that's about double the penetration of my .380 solids and double to triple the penetration of my .380 hollowpoints.

[FergusonTO35]

Those of you with the Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP, how far do these pistols fling brass? My Glock 42 and Kahr CT-380 do a very good job of keeping it all within a few feet but are a bit large for trouser pocket carry.

[fecmech]

Those of you with the Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP, how far do these pistols fling brass?
I've had both and they both spread the brass around quite a bit. The good thing is that .380 brass is cheap (here on the board)and readily available. I do most of my serious .380 shooting indoors so brass is no problem there. Outside in grass I pick up the obvious ones but lose over half.

[hp246]

Personally, I think the .380 is pretty anemic. Because of my job it, is difficult to carry anything that is visible at all. I picked a Beretta Pico as my primary day to day carry, with a Sig 220 as my kit bag gun. I can put the Pico in my suit pants pocket behind an ID case, and no one has ever noticed it. Yeah, i can be a bit hard to handle, but the magazine with the extended grip helps considerably.

[Bazoo]

Of the ones mentioned, i'd go with the p238. I've never fired one that i recall, however i may have as several folks i know have one. I did own a g42 and a ruger lcp for a while though.

The lcp was a nice gun for a small backup gun. Something to carry in your pocket or boot. I couldnt hit great with it, but could hit a man at 15 or 20 yards if i recall. It was the wifes, she liked it, but couldnt rack the slide effectively, nor could she take it down easily. So we sold it.

The g42 was for her also, and it was okay. She limp wristed it and it threw casings in her face, so we traded it also.

She has settled on a bersa thunder 380 for now. It is easy for her to shoot compared to the glock for some reason. It was cheap so her lack of maintenance doesnt cause me to have a conniption when it gets rusty. It works. That said, it isnt a gun that will last. A friend has one, and his still works, but has a lot of wear on the slide release and the slide notch. I can see that it wont hold up to a lifetime of shooting.

I havent ever shot a kahr anything. But i've seen several and really liked the feel of them. Everyone i know that has shot them, or had them said they were good little guns.

I'd like very much to give the colt government 380 a run, but they arent cheap. My wife wants one, but... again, they arent cheap.

[FergusonTO35]

The only caution with the Kahr is that the trigger and trigger guard don't work well with thick fingers.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've always been impressed with the Kahr's. The design is good and for the most part they seem to be excellent little pistols. I've personally seen very few problems with the exception of the early PM40 model (micro 40 S&W with a polymer frame). That model appears to be a case of too little material in the frame combined with too much cartridge. I think Kahr tried to make that one just a little too small. The early production PM40 had magazines that would drop out under recoil and the triggers wouldn't reset properly. I think Kahr corrected that issue. The 9mm polymer models are fine as are all the steel frame models. I did see one PM9 that finally succumbed to a steady diet of +P+ rounds. The front edge of the ejection port was peened to the point that the barrel wouldn't un-lock. I think the combination of a soft slide and the abuse of a lot of very hot cartridges killed it. Kahr replaced the barrel and slide free of charge.
I have a friend that purchased one of the early steel MK9's and carried it daily for 15 years. He shot that gun a lot and it never failed.

[mjwcaster]

Just make sure that if anyone is looking at an LCP that you get the latest model, no dash, higher sights, much better trigger.
Ruger did a running change in 2012 with little announcement.
The trigger is greatly improved, I mean it is like a different gun.
The first one I had my grubby mits on was a students.
I dry fired it and was shocked, called my other instructors over to try it out and none of us could believe it.
The newer model also has slightly taller sights.

The only way to tell the two models apart is the newer ones have no dash in the serial number (IIRC) the taller sights (readily apparent if you have both models side by side, otherwise you may not notice) and by trying out the trigger.

Also I have seen one later model still have take down pin backing out issues, so it is not completely fixed.

A set of hogue grips and a mag extension plate makes it nicer to shoot, but negates the small size that was it's purpose in the first place.
But you can use the grip/mag extension for of your range practice and then take them off to finish practice and carry that tiny gun.

Other wise a nice little gun, for what it is.

The Sig is an awesome 380, but single action, so you have that to deal with.

The body guard, Smith improved the triggers on them, or so I thought, but we just had a student with a brand new 380 body guard and the trigger sucked.
Gritty, stagey, and heavy, my favorite combinations.
Like pulling through a box of rocks.

We let her shoot a G42 in class, not sure if she will keep the body guard or trade it in.
G42- what can I say, it is a glock and shoots nicely. But it is only a fraction smaller than a G43, and much larger than the smaller 380's.
Make mine a 9mm in this case.

I agree that 380 does not hold the appeal that it once does.
If you need the smallest gun available ( I call the little ones multi shot derringers) then they fit the bill.

Otherwise I advise people to look into the latest crop of small 9mm's.
Cheaper/more available ammo is one of the reasons I push them.
A small gun needs more practice with (at least for me) and ammo costs really add up for those that don't reload with 380 ammo being maybe 75% costlier than 9mm, with less availability.

Matt

[FergusonTO35]

.380 ammo cost is slowly coming back to Earth around here. You can consistently find Remington and Federal for about $17.00/50, imports for a couple bucks less. I'm pondering trading the Kahr CT-380 on a CW-380. The Glock 42 does everything the CT does better, however the CW is small enough to easily pocket carry which can't be said for the 42. Anybody have experience with one of these?

[Outpost75]

148060Think I'll stick with this one for the time being. Holds lots of Silvertip HPs.

How do you like the Beretta 84? How much have you shot it? How does the light alloy frame hold up, or is yours STEEL!

They made a single-stack version also which is a much flatter carry. I've been looking for one to replace my Beretta M1934, which I think is one of the best, most affordable and under-rated .380s out there. I don't use the safety, but carry chamber empty and hammer at full cock to ease rapidly racking the slide as the gun is presented. I load the Accurate 37-125T (bullet intended for 9x18 Makarov, but you can order in smaller diameter for .380, which I did) with a compressed caseful of Alliant #2400. Velocity 850 fps. Big flat nose, runs like a pony trotting.

150808

[LouisianaMan]

As usual, I dipped my toe into the Berettas, liked 'em, but my long-established tendency has been to turn good guns into other good guns :-( Down sides are painfully obvious, but upside is that I've been able to experience more guns and calibers than otherwise would have been possible. And although there's a lot to be said for muscle memory with one or two guns, there are also advantages to being able to pick up, operate, and quickly adjust to numerous firearms. (

Had an 84BB for much of my time in Germany in the 1980s and a bit beyond , and its double-stack mag gave significant peace of mind in its role as house gun. (I was military, and Lord knows we weren't allowed to CARRY anything.) Wife didn't like the snappy recoil. Gun ran well, though.

My last 6-7 years have been spent working mostly with .38 S&W revolvers, with a period of swapping some of them for pocket autos. Got another 84 double stack, but didn't shoot it much before the bugbear of bulk/width had me looking elsewhere. Wanted something bigger for the house, slimmer for carry. Would have been a nice apartment solution, but I lived on property so heavier cartridges were desirable and practical.

Sampled classic .32 ACP and .380 ACP guns: 1910 .32, 1910/22 .32, 1955 .380, several .25 ACP Berettas, 1934 .32 ACP Beretta, .32 Tomcat. The 1910 was worn out--metal fatigue in the frame where it was machined as a guide for the slide's recoil. The long-snouted 1910/22 was indeed more suitable as a belt pistol than for CCW. The 1955 Browning was a wee bit crotchety, but strict attention to mags and ammo could have solved it. The 1934 Beretta had several design concerns (safety's inaccessibility, mag catch, slide rides forward when empty mag is released for reloading). The wideslide Inox Tomcat was disappointingly bulky, but worse was reading its manual and finding out that Beretta recommended limiting ammo to the 130 fpe class, thereby ruling out anything beyong bland US ball and the 60g JHP class of bullet.

Nonetheless, Outpost's adaptation in carry method of his classic Beretta is quite a practical solution. Fairbairn & Sykes would have approved!

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image.jpg13.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image.jpg13.jpg.html)

I settled on keeping a Remington 51 in .380. Late 1920's manufacture, very nice condition, reliable, and easy to strip & reassemble with a little practice and patience. Replaced recoil spring, gathered a few other parts, and even found a spare breechblock--the part most likely to fail. The bugbear of "impossible to field strip" is as real as the bogeyman under the closet, i.e. not at all. Grossly oversold as a defect, IMO.
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/3d296a53-3ff9-4911-8f0a-ae7cb20acc5c.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/3d296a53-3ff9-4911-8f0a-ae7cb20acc5c.jpg.html)

Pointability is spectacular, as are workmanship, materials, and design. I carry it when the situation dictates max concealment, as it's flat as can be. As Outpost mentions, the single-stack modern Beretta should excel in that regard, and make up in modern practicality what it lacks in 1920's panáche. In any event, the Remington's OEM mag is highly reliable with numerous brands & types of ammo, and boy will it shoot fast. On-target magazine dumps are quick! I rely on both grip safety and manual safety for carry, and can unobtrusively disengage the manual safety thru my shirt, by feel, when I want to be able to simply pull and fire. (Think: going to truck in parking lot at night, sketchy character in/around convenience store, etc.) With a strong trigger pull and grip safety, it's reliably safe to fire only when I make it fire.

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/batonrougeman/image.jpg11.jpg (http://s872.photobucket.com/user/batonrougeman/media/image.jpg11.jpg.html)

Aftermarket mags rated for 8 rds. do far better with 7+1, in my experience. The OEM mag is fine with 7+1. A spare original mag I picked up will barely hold 7, but not with 1 more in the chamber--thus fine for a reload, but would cut carry capacity to 6+1.

I like several loads: 95g Hunters Supply PHP (pentagon hollow point) gives positive expansion and 3 jug penetration at 917 fps. A Ranch Dog 100g LFN in the 850-900 range does fine and guarantees deeper penetration with a very nice meplat. I like to candy-stripe those two bullets in loaded mags. I also get fine results from Hornady 90g XTP at 850-ish.

If time and lighting allow deliberate trigger squeeze and precise alignment of miniscule sights, the 51 is quite accurate, but its forté is point-shooting. In that role, it is fast as a rattlesnake, and its semi-locked action designed by Pedersen back in the 1910's makes it much more akin to shooting a locked breech pistol without the snappy muzzle flip of straight blowback weapons. 21 oz. of steel helps make it a relatively light carry, and contributes to eminent controllability. The only design drawback is lack of a slide lockback, but on the positive side is a button mag release located like a 1911.

[Outpost75]

I was taught that method of carry by a WW2 vet who was instructed in that manner at Camp Ritchie, MD by none other than Applegate, himself, who indeed was tutored by Sykes...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Outpost 75--sorry I didn't return to this thread for awhile, and just saw your question/comments. The Beretta 1934--great pistol. The truth is, that before I bought the 84F my only .380 was a M-34, and because it is such an admirable pistol in several ways it influenced me to buy the 84F. The 34's size, balance, quality of construction (all steel), magazine floor plate extension, flatness, etc., are hard to beat. The truth is, I own two of them. My original was no doubt brought home from WW II by a returning G.I., as the issue grips had been discarded and replaced with clear Plexiglas which was kind of fashionable at the time, and allowed you to see if there were any rounds in the magazine. It actually saved my life one night, or at least prevented serious injury, and eventually I replaced the grips with replica originals and reblued it. Then it looked so good I retired it and acquired another that I wouldn't feel guilty about rubbing a little of the bluing off, as it was already pre-rubbed! Crazy, I know. About the only criticism I have of the 34 is that it doesn't have a hold open device and it's really difficult to reload quickly with a second magazine. But for years I operated on the theory that if the full mag and one in the chamber didn't do the job it was time to fall back and call the Marines. The 84F I bought as used from an on-line auction, and it's an import by PW Arms, Redmond, WA. who brought in a bunch of them. It is my understanding that it is an ex-Israeli police gun. They tend to be kind of hard on their guns, but this one just has some holster rubs. Have you seen any of the Star Mod. B's offered for sale on Gunbroker (shudder, shudder)--they look awful! It shoots really well, but I've only put two boxes of cartridges through it, so any wear it bears is from the Israelis and not me. Going by the old adage that "if one is good, two is twice as good" I jumped on what I perceived as being a good deal and bought a second. Both had scuzzy black plastic grips, and I replaced them with new factory wooden grips from CDNN and got each a new factory mag from Numrich G.P. Your thinking and mine are exactly the same on these great pistols. The absolute zenith would be to own an all-steel single stack double action version of the 84. I saw one once in a display case about 25 years ago, and haven't seen one since. A strong contender for my affections is the Star .380, but it's not double action. I've got many semi-autos that aren't D.A., but having that feature in a .380 used for concealed carry is kind of the best of both worlds between it being semi-auto and a D.A. .38 special snub nose.

150835 150836 First photo, my original M-34, now retired. Second photo, my current CCW options. Depends on clothing and the weather. Top left, Star Mod. B 9x19mm. Top right, Taurus M-85 .38 Spec. Bottom left, the new used M-34. Bottom right, Beretta 84F previously posted.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Kind of an after thought on Beretta 84s in their various variations....I was also influenced in that choice by a fellow I worked with back in the bad old days who carried a Browning BDA .380 as an off-duty gun. It looked good, felt good, and shot good! The only significant difference between the Browning BDA and the Beretta 84 is the design of the slide (and the name stamped on it), the Browning having a closed slide except for an ejection port, and the Beretta having a mostly open top slide. The Brownings cost more, as do most things Browning, and that holds true for the used ones as well. One can get into a great theoretical argument about which design is better. Some will say that the Beretta's ejection is more reliable, and others will disparage it saying that it's easier for debris and obstructions to get in and cause a stoppage. The BDAs that I've encountered seemed utterly reliable. So, as they say, "You pays your money and you takes your choice." I'd be very happy with either.

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the reply. I was wondering where all the ugly 84Bs on Gunbroker were coming from, and now I know.

I'm holding out for another clean postwar manufacture 1934, they are out there. I have a pair of .32 ACP 1935s, a 1944 wartime production gun from an estate sale, which was rebarrelled by NoVA Gun Works with a chunk of Hart 14" twist .308 stainless and set up to headspace on the case mouth, and an alloy frame 1954 commercial model I found on GunBroker.

I like having redundancy in carry guns which work for me.

150837

[DougGuy]

The only issue I have with a .380 is that is isn't a .45 but Kahr have also fixed this problem with the CW45. With an aftermarket 7rd mag, I can have 8rds on tap with a pistol that is basically the size of a .380 and is in fact smaller than some .380s. Problem solved!

[9.3X62AL]

I've owned one each of the Beretta double-column magazine pistols, an 84-BB in 380 ACP and an 81 in 32 ACP. Both were utterly reliable using Winchester Silvertips or handloads that duplicated same, and ran cast bullets or hollow points without a hiccup. Great pistols.

Specific to the 84-series, my agency has or had about a dozen guys and gals that qualified with these models for off-duty usage. One guy comes to mind in particular, a homicide detective that I attended the basic academy with. He has carried that unit since we approved 380s and 40s in 1994, and shot it quite a bit. The pistol has held up well, and he estimates roughly 6000 round history so far. Magazines are still working, and they are tough to find. The single-column Beretta variant in this series was the Model 85, and I have no experience with it. The 380s we see most frequently at quals are the now out-of-print SIG P-230/232 and the barely-alive Walther PPK/S or PPK. The small 9mms have pretty much taken over the game, though.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have no argument whatsoever with "Mo bigga, mo betta". But, can't always hide the big ones too well. I know I'll get some flack for this statement, but the down-engineered 1911s worry me enough that I won't carry one. As a gunsmith I had several brought into my shop over the years with the complaint "it jams". I was always able to rectify the situation by some judicious polishing and the installation of what I call a kicker spring (there's probably a more precise title) which was a slightly smaller diameter spring installed inside the original equipment recoil spring, giving the slide a more positive forward push. My brother bought a very small Kimber awhile back and tells me, "Oh, they solved that problem!" Kahr has always seemed like a good gun for the money, but I have no experience with their .45 ACP version. The .380 ACP still has it's uses.........and some of the "mouse gun" criticism has been addressed by the improved bullet designs like Starfire, Hydra-shok, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc.

[LouisianaMan]

I was taught that method of carry by a WW2 vet who was instructed in that manner at Camp Ritchie, MD by none other than Applegate, himself, who indeed was tutored by Sykes...

Outpost, you sure do get around! As soon as I saw "Camp Ritchie," I knew where your comment was leading, because that was LTC Applegate's Military Intel Training Center back in WWII.

For those who may be new to the type of point-shooting that often makes the most of handy .380's, I'll point out that Applegate, as a lieutenant, was sent to wartime England to learn everything about SOE- and Commando-style "gutter fighting" that Sykes could teach him, in order to bring it back for possible adaptation and use by our fledgling OSS. That included quick-reaction pistol-shooting.

And just as Fairbairn & Sykes's "Shooting to Live with the One-Hand Gun" was broadly adapted within the British Army, Home Guard, SOE, etc., so were Applegate's techniques spread through much of the US Army in WWII. See wartime training film at https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BeSpwAA_0DU.

For those interested in reading up on the F/S style, reprints are readily available and well worth a read, IMO: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1581606788?keywords=shooting%20to%20live%20with%20 the%20one%20hand%20gun&qid=1444666656&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

A modern handbook on Applegate's style, with background material by & on him, is at http://www.amazon.com/Bullseyes-Dont-Shoot-Back-Complete/dp/0873649575/ref=pd_sim_14_17?ie=UTF8&refRID=1H6A9QVEBCMNBPQJB111

These styles aren't intended for hunting or formal target-shooting, but CB forum members interested in HD/SD/CC handgun usage will find them worthy of consideration.

[Outpost75]

LTC Ellis Lea, USA (Ret.) was my mentor. He was coach of the US Olympic Pistol Team and XO of the USAMTU at Ft. Benning for many years. Before WW2 he was a West Virginia State Trooper and was well known to my family there. I caught up with him in the 1970s when he, Byron Engle and Joe Gregory all were instructor cadre for the Office of Public Safety for USAID.

The famous Life magazine cover of General Lon executing the VC terrorist with a stainless S&W Bodyguard has some interesting background. Joe Gregory arranged to have S&W make that group of guns, which found their way to MACV and Gen. Lon received the gun as a gift from the late Harry J. Archer. I remember when that magazine came out, we were in Davis Gun Shop in Falls Church, VA and the late Charles Lanham (who would years later be an expert witness for ATF's Firearms Technology Branch) pointed at it and said, "Hey Joe, your gun made the cover of LIFE!"

At that time the only stainless Bodyguards ever made were those for the agency, so there was no doubt.

[LouisianaMan]

IIRC, the VC whose last mortal moment was captured in that photo had just participated in murdering the general's family. Even if he was not directly involved in that specific atrocity, VC had carried with them lists of people to round up and torture/execute summarily when they took cities, or parts thereof, in the Tet Offensive. Of course, our media famously chose to practically ignore those mass graves in favor of dynamic "images" such as the one you mention. Rather than "just desserts," it was portrayed in American media as just another awful example of ARVN corruption.

Cronkite sonorously declaring victory for the enemy took the cake, of course, despite the fact that US and ARVN forces destroyed the VC in numbers that ensured that the NVA would be left to invade and conquer RVN practically unassisted, and the marginalized VC remnants were yesterday's news. So much for a "successful Communist revolution in South Vietnam," eh? Oh well, there I go again, assuming that the media should be interested in truth....

Although I should know some of the other names you mention, I think I recognize Harry Archer as a man you've described elsewhere as one who put the .32 Colt 1903 Pocket Automatic at the top of his list for sundry *serious* duties overseas....

[Outpost75]

Harry did his job so well that very few people knew what he did. He always had guns inspected and cleaned at Davis Gun Shop before leaving the country. He would never let them use anything but "3 in 1" oil because it can be purchased worldwide and he did not want any residues that could be traced to the US.

He intensely disliked Jeff Cooper, having known him from MACV in Vietnam and described him as a "Nazi" and he would roll his eyes at the Gunsite eagle and Cooper's other attempts at Teutonic heraldry.

Harry paid the price for what he did and exhibited what we today call PTSD. "Condition Orange" all the time, always ready to bug out , having passports etc. for 7 different identities. The story you may have heard on the .32 ACP being "entirely adequate for headshots on hypothermic Chicom swimmers with knives" comes from Harry relating the story of an ELINT expedition near Quemoy & Matsu islands off of Taiwan. Harry was kept busy with his .45 trying to prevent the boatwain's mate from blowing the transom off the boat with the Oerlikon cannon while the ship captain was playing "whack a mole" with his 1922 Browning as the Chicom frogmen were trying to board and capture the boat. The water was so cold that the frogmen were blue and thankfully slow to react. The ship captain casually head shot them in turn from about ten feet and they would slide back into the water. Harry's quote was "the captain was matching me shot for shot and doing about as well as I was, but I was STILL glad that I had the .45"

[LouisianaMan]

Sounds like between the Captain's long-snouted Browning .32, Harry's .45, and the boatswain's mate's attempts to perform full-automatic HE headshots with an Oerlikon cannon, their ship did better against that hypothermic horde than the entire crew of the Pueblo was allowed to do some years later when matched against the nK navy. Proving, perhaps, that anything MIGHT do the job if used aggressively, but nothing is good enough to do the job if the user can't or won't pull the trigger!

[Outpost75]

Sounds like between the Captain's long-snouted Browning .32, Harry's .45, and the boatswain's mate's attempts to perform full-automatic HE headshots with an Oerlikon cannon, their ship did better against that hypothermic horde than the entire crew of the Pueblo was allowed to do some years later when matched against the nK navy. Proving, perhaps, that anything MIGHT do the job if used aggressively, but nothing is good enough to do the job if the user can't or won't pull the trigger!

Harry was too young for WW2, but was a VMI graduate and was a Korean war Marine vet. The agency recruited him promptly when he returned from Korea. He was an instructor at the "farm" at Camp Peary, VA in small unit tactics, and was a clandestine services operator into the Vietnam era. Not sure what his ethic heritage was, but he was one of those guys who could pass for almost anything. My best guess was that he was at least part native American and could easily pass for Asian or Latino. He spoke fluent Russian without an accent. The first time I became aware of him I was shown a mugshot of him wearing an NVA uniform and was told, "he's our guy, don't shoot him...." After Vietnam he was a watch officer at Langley and in the 1970s before caller ID was known, he gave me a number to call to let ring twice, then hang up if I wanted to speak with him and I thought that was really cool...

His home in McLean had a double tennis court which converted to a heli-pad. When he retired and died Mike Stanley & I spent several days sweeping the house for all the weapons and stuff he had stashed, using the best technology law enforcement then had available. We found guns, money, passports, go bags stashed everywhere. Never knew whether we found it all before the house was sold.

He was the prototype for Jack Bauer and Jason Bourne.....

[johniv]

Outpost, did Harry Archer ever write anything for public consumption ? I have an old , long defunct, gun mag. with an article by"Harry Archer" wherein the writer reviews the then new S&W mod 60, used by his outfit working in the Amazon basin.

[Outpost75]

Outpost, did Harry Archer ever write anything for public consumption ? I have an old , long defunct, gun mag. with an article by"Harry Archer" wherein the writer reviews the then new S&W mod 60, used by his outfit working in the Amazon basin.

Yes, Harry was a good friend of Ken Warner, who was Editor of American Rifleman in the mid-1970s until early '80s, and also published a short-lived, but excellent magazine called GunFacts, for which Harry was a regular contributor. He also contributed some articles for the Gun Digest when Ken was Editor there.