Reloading with cast question

[z28z34man]

In reading my lyman cast handbook it talks about the M die. If my understanding is corect the M die expands the neck so the bulet isn't sized during seating it also flares the case mouth to make seating easier. To me the beter solution would be to not size it down that far in the first place and to use the Lee universal flair die. With that setup the brass would be worked less and should last longer. Is there a full leangth sizer die that sizes the neck for cast?

[chsparkman]

That does make sense, though I've never heard of one. Perhaps some die makers here could shed light on this.

[northern smith]

Youre right about not to over work your brass. The solution is a neck sizerdie. They can bee found whith different size inserts. Where to find them im sure others here can help you whith. This is for your once fired brass, other brass you will have to fl. Size and then go from there. Hope this can help.

[OnHoPr]

I don't have the M die, I have the Lee flaring die. But, as you mentioned, with my own fired brass I only neck size for the first or second bearing bands. You can set your regular die for this type of sizing. I am referring to the 30-30 case as that is what I mostly shoot cast with. Then I trim if necessary, flare, prime, charge, seat, then I Lee Factory crimp. With new brass I neck size. With range pick ups I check to see if they will chamber in my gun, if not FL. Then I usually shoot them with a plinker round. After that they get the same treatment as above. They do make the Lee Collet die if you are concerned about overworking your brass. After the factory crimp die I have no worries putting them in the tubular mag. I think this method of leaving the neck brass more fire formed to the neck portion of the chamber keeps the boolit more centered to the bore. That's if your bore and chamber are more on the truer side. Most of the mass produced guns whether factory or military don't all have that .0005 tolerances throughout there production years for instance the win 94 or the military mausers, this also probably goes along with dies too. So, I am assuming that this method takes up a bit of slop when the cartridge is chambered. With the M die though, I have never used one, it may be advantageous let's say if you have a tight resizing die along with a larger neck chamber and lead with a softer over sized boolit to seat, like in a marlin with its microgroove barrel. This is with what I am understanding what you are understanding what a M die does.

[Motor]

First of all the "M" die does not put a simple bell mouth flair on the case. It puts short straight expantion on the case which allows the boolit to enter the case mouth and sit squarely on the base of this expanded portion.

The long nose of the "M" die expands the case neck like most other neck expanders.

As mentioned you can neck only size and get dies that allow you to size to different sizes. There are also body size dies so you can size the body independent of the neck. But to be perfectly honest, as far as brass life goes you are a lot better off simply using standard dies either full length or neck only and expanding. Then when you get your first split neck anneal the case necks and be good for several more reloads.

Motor

[Motor]

The only time I ever messed with changing how much a die sized a neck was with the 7.62x54R. Most die sets are made to size the neck for .308" bullets. Most people get the optional .303 expander. I took this one step further. Since I would be using .313+ boolits I polished out the neck portion of my Lee die so it would not size as small. This however is not something the average person is capable of mostly because of the special measuring tool needed to track your progress.

Motor

[dromia]

The M die is nothing like Lee flare die. The M die is a two step parallel sided spud. The first diameter sizes to the right internal diameter for holding the bullet the second step opens the case mouth a bit more for easy starting and also aiding in seating the bullet square in the case. It also ensure that the brass is worked only just enough for your bullet and gives control of these dimensions.

If you do a search on here it has been covered extensively before and there are drawings also.

I have spuds made to my specifications for the neck ID in relation to the brass I am using and the diameter of the bullets so that it give me the 1-2 thou neck tension I want with cast bullet, too tight a neck tensions can size down cast bullets 'pon seating. The worst culprit for working brass if crimping which I only ever do for revolvers and tube magazine under levers.

There are people on here like Buckshot and Lathesmith who will make you bespoke M die style spuds for you at a friendly price, also NOE has started producing a comprehensive range of M die style spuds that fit the Lee pointy flare die body.

[northern smith]

This reloding isint easy it takes more than reading.

[Motor]

I just want add that when you use a "M" die there is a very good chance that you will not have to crimp at all not even to remove the mouth expansion that it creates because its outside diameter is much smaller than what you get when you "bell mouth" a case.

Motor

[Tom W.]

The new RCBS pistol dies now have the "m" die in the 3 die carbide set. I do have a flaring die for .30 cal that I use for loading cast in my 30/30 and 30-06. I believe it's an RCBS also.

[Dan Cash]

Brass is not uniform in thickness. The "M" die gives a uniform hole into which a bullet may be seated.

[Motor]

Brass is not uniform in thickness. The "M" die gives a uniform hole into which a bullet may be seated.

Very good point. I haven't seen that mentioned before. We don't usually think of case neck walls being not true in thickness but nothing is perfect and some is very likely worse than others.

Motor

[OnHoPr]

Sounds like the M die with the correct spud or mandrel is for getting into the competition class shooting. I really don't want to irritate a Mod, but if we were discussing the silver stream, casting, and reloading over a nice cup of tea would it be more proper to use the term bullet or boolit. lol

[Wasalmonslayer]

Get an m die or the noe inserts for the lee flare tool and you will never look back. It has helped shrink my group sizes!! :drinks:

Slayer

[Three44s]

Getting to the root of the OP, a bushing neck die and the Lyman M die would likely be the best combo.

Whether the Lee flare die would be sufficient for your purposes is entirely up to you.

The Lee is a one size fits all and just a tapered expander while the M die will need to be bought for every caliber and also some different length changes will require a short and a long version.

I like them all and have both styles.

But day in and day out there is no substitute for an M die unless it's a custom of the same stripes.

I do a lot of cartridges so I just pace myself and let the $$$$ flow to the ones most desired.

Best regards

Three 44s

[mdi]

Check out RCBS "Cowboy" dies, I believe they are designed for seating lead bullets...

But, I've been reloading revolver cartridges since 1969 and have not had a problem with cases swaging down bullets during seating. I normally use WW alloy, or it's equivalent and mostly use Lee dies with the "powder through" die opening up the mouth. I have tried the "M" die and yes it works, but I don't think it's the end all for reloading lead bullets.

As an aside, don't worry about "case life" for now. Brass is cheap and easy to find, except for some obsolete cartridges (you can even get brass from Amazon.com). Besides, how many more reloadings can you get being extra careful not to flare your brass "too much"? 5? 6? It's better to get good shootable ammo, and develop good reloading habits now, and worry about case life later...

[dudel]

All it does it for me is provide a stepped opening to make the seating of flat base projectiles easier. Sizing doesn't come into it unless your projectiles are softer than the brass case. If I'm using bevel base or boat tail projectiles, a regular flaring expander die works just fine.

If the projectile is larger than the opening created by the M-die, you are SOL. A flaring type expander is needed (although you might need to reconsider the size of the projectile!).

It's not magic, it's just another way to prep the case mouth for accepting the projectile.

I got my only M die for 22 Hornet. 22 Hornet cases are somewhat thin, and easy to crumple if you don't get the projectile square on the mouth. I thought an M die would help, and it did. However, my Hornady die set with inline seater does as good a job of getting the projectiles straight and not crumpling the cases.

Also understand that Lyman is going to push their M die in their reloading book. I don't recall the M dies being mentioned in the Hornady, Speer or Nosler books.

I don't use the M die for 380 ACP, 9mm, 38Spl/Mag/Max, 45 GAP/ACP, 223 or 300 BO. Either jacketed and cast. I just haven't seen the need for it. But then I don't cast oversized boolits.

[dtknowles]

In reading my lyman cast handbook it talks about the M die. If my understanding is corect the M die expands the neck so the bulet isn't sized during seating it also flares the case mouth to make seating easier. To me the beter solution would be to not size it down that far in the first place and to use the Lee universal flair die. With that setup the brass would be worked less and should last longer. Is there a full leangth sizer die that sizes the neck for cast?

What cartridge and what firearm are you reloading for? The other responses have covered M die and bushing dies, as for what you should choose, I would say we don't know enough about what you are doing to give advice.

Tim

[bedbugbilly]

The M die has already been explained so I won't repeat.

I only load cast and last year got set up for loading 8 X 57 Mauser for a 1905 GEW98 Danzig that I have. All a learning process for sure as it was my first "bottleneck".

I use three different molds for my "cat sneeze loads". Two are in the 115 gr range and fall about .323 - they work great in my casings - I neck size by adjusting my Lee FL up a little. I then expand with a Lyman 310 8mm expander die - just about perfect neck tension when seated but I like a little crimp so I use my 310 neck sizing die and put a very slight "crimp" on them right at the case mouth - works great.

For my NOE mold boolits however - they fall at about 130 gr. - .325. That's where I discovered I needed a M die. I tried my Lee universal flair die - wasn't happy. Ordered an M die and have never looked back. Yea . . some will say that it will probably swage the boolit down but so far, I haven't experienced that with the brass I'm using. I refer to the M die as my "shoe horn". For me . . it works great and they shoot very well out of my Mauser over 8 to 8.5 gr of Red Dot at 50 yards. (All I do is plink).

I liked it well enough that I ordered one for my 30-30 dies. Don't have a rifle yet but am all set up to go when I find one. Sometimes you just have to be a little creative in your thinking and work with a combination that works for you and helps you get the results you're looking for. As mentioned . . you can always go with a larger expander plug to fit the boolit you're using and which gives you the best neck tension.

On my pistol cartridges - 9mm, 38 Colt Short, Long, Special and 357 I get along fine without an M Die and all I load is cast. I'm all set up for 45 Colt and will be getting a SAA clone in the next month or so . . . fortunately, the used set of Lyman dies I picked up has a M Die with it . . . just in case I need it for the Lyman 454-190 mold that I have and plan on using.

[gloob]

1. It all depends on the size of your sizing die. It could work right out of the box, no other fuss. Or it could be too tight for cast bullets.

2. You can get cowboy dies for some calibers. Or with the right abrasive and a lathe or drill with rubber mandrel you could open up the carbide ring in a regular die to your own specifications. But all that said, the thickness of brass varies, so making a size die specifically for cast has that drawback. Some brass might be too thin to get good neck tension. You have to make some compromise with the exact size you want.

3. M die is supposed to do what you described, but in fact, in PISTOL calibers, the M die plug is too small to accomplish the task. If your pistol sizine die is too tight for cast, a standard M die will do absolutely NOTHING to fix it. It will, however, open up a case enough to allow proper neck tension of a jacketed bullet. If you want to fix tight cases for oversize bullets, you need to get an aftermarket expander. But see point #1. If your size die is loose, you do not need an oversize expander; a larger expander might even reduce what neck tension you have.

IMO, an expander plug of the exact same diameter as your cast bullet is the proper medicine for opening up a tight semiauto pistol case. Works every time with all cases, and work hardening is not an issue for my semiauto pistol brass.

Standard M die works awesome in rifle, particularly with gas checked bullets. But a universal flare die will probably work just as good, too.

[z28z34man]

What cartridge and what firearm are you reloading for? The other responses have covered M die and bushing dies, as for what you should choose, I would say we don't know enough about what you are doing to give advice.

Tim

I cast for for 9mm 38sp and 45acp in pistols those I am not too concerned about now. What I am concerned if my micro groove 336 clone. I purchased a 311041 from noe and have read the 336 likes them fat. After I get going with the 336 I plan on trying the same mold in my rem 700 in 30-06 but for that one I will neck size only.

[dtknowles]

I cast for for 9mm 38sp and 45acp in pistols those I am not too concerned about now. What I am concerned if my micro groove 336 clone. I purchased a 311041 from noe and have read the 336 likes them fat. After I get going with the 336 I plan on trying the same mold in my rem 700 in 30-06 but for that one I will neck size only.

There you go, now we can talk. I have a 30-30 and a 31141 (no zero, don't know why) Lyman mold. I shoot them sized .311, brass is full length sized in Lyman die, I flare the neck with a Lee powder thru expander from .30 Mauser/7.62x25 in .45 acp body. I had these in stock and did not see the need to buy new M die or such. Case life is fine. I do crimp after or while seating. For years I got away with not expanding the case mouth but I was sizing the bullets to .308 then and was careful to chamfer the mouth evenly and started the bullets straight. I think the gas check helps keep the brass from shaving the bullet. I never worried about the brass sizing down the bullets but the bullets were BHN of 12 to 16. 30-30 brass is pretty thin in the neck. If I had a bullet that got shaved it was set aside for plinking or fouling.

Tim