Win 231/HP38 Being Phased Out

[Phineas Bluster]

Deleted

[Vann]

I can understand wanting to stop making powders with lots of chemical waste. I work in a pvc compounding plant and we have to pay for waste disposal buy the pound. I really hate losing 231 it's always been a cheap economical powder.

[osteodoc08]

Is this from the company itself or heresay?

I love 231 but can get along with any number of other powders.

[Hardcast416taylor]

With the following for these powders and the demand for them I find it kinda hard to believe they would drop off these popular powders that do bring them in money.Robert

[9w1911]

So tightgroup is the winner here ?

[runfiverun]

I hope not.
titegroup cannot do what 231 does.

the industrial waste and such part sounds correct though.

[dragon813gt]

With the following for these powders and the demand for them I find it kinda hard to believe they would drop off these popular powders that do bring them in money.Robert

They aren't dropping them. They are being reformulated. You can thank environmental restrictions, in markets like Europe, for this. If I remember right the entire AP line of powders is being reformulated. Here is a link to ADI's equivalents: http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp

And here is the announcement about the reformulations, scroll down to the third one: http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/news.asp#item2

I use a lot of W231 and Universal so this really effects me.

[HK91]

A question I have about the "new technology" powders is if the can make more in less time and with less expense due to waste material disposal costs, then why aren't the "new technology" powders cheaper?

[LAGS]

New chemestry powders may be Cheaper to Produce.
But do you really think that the manufactures are going to drop prices,.
You already agree to pay high prices now, so if they can make them cheaper, it is just more money in their pockets.
Then they may ask you to pay More for the new Reformulated products.
Even though it is cheaper for them to produce.
This is still a Capitalistic Economic System.
Does the phrase , " Supply and Demand" ring a bell ?

[dragon813gt]

A question I have about the "new technology" powders is if the can make more in less time and with less expense due to waste material disposal costs, then why aren't the "new technology" powders cheaper?

I heard a quote the other day that rings true. Capitalism has no conscious. In reality the prices should be lower w/ the reformulated powders if they are cheaper, easier and faster to make. But that reality doesn't exist in the business world.

Outside of three new IMR powders Hodgodn hasn't released any new ones. They are made by a different company so we don't know what the reformulated Clays line is going to cost yet. BE-86 is the same price as Bullseye here so I have hope.

And for anyone that likes W231/HP-38. Ramshot Zip is almost identical in performance and load. It's on the shelves here so give it a try of you can't find W231/HP-38.

[Mod42]

If the price for raw materials is more expensive there may not be any chance that the reformulated powders will be cheaper!!

[Elkins45]

The new formulation powders I have been seeing crop up in the marketplace are indeed priced a couple of bucks cheaper than the old standards.

[RobS]

Win231/HP38 is an old standby for sure and has many followers due to its longevity in production. It's hard to change when one finds the loads that work so very well. This isn't just with Win231 but other powders as well. It's human nature to not want to make changes however the newer powders coming out will hopefully be a direct or extremely close replacement in application with the additions of cleaner burning, less flash and better consistency to name a few.

Speaking of BE-86 I have been using it in heavy 230 grain 45 ACP and 158 grain 38 special +P and it's one that burns cleaner at lower end, has better ignition characteristics across the min./max powder charge while produceing higher velocity with less pressure. In addition BE-86 also has less flash.

It's hard to say goodbye and yeah I have to find new loads that duplicate. I guess this gives me a reason to go shoot more. None the less, I'm in hopes that the powder manufactures have awareness of the older powders' proven characteristics and expand on those properties to fulfill the reloader/handloader needs.

[Blackwater]

Well, I'd REALLY hate to see Unique go, of all the powders I use. However, we recently had yet ANOTHER "spill" of toxic chemicals into my beloved Ogeechee river here, and it killed all manner of life in the river - not just the fish, but beavers, otters, alligators, turtles and a fair number of people who still use the river for their swimming got bad problems from their unknowingly swimming in the contaminated water. I used to skinny dip in this river in the hot summer when the heat was on and the fishing got slow. My direct family lineage hasn't lived more than 20 miles from this great old blackwater river (the source of my handle "Blackwater") since 1763, and it's one of the last and best "unspoiled" blackwater rivers on the southeastern coast. The local dye plant, that impregnates cloth with fireproofing chemicals, was the culprit, and they've been having these "accidents" for decades. We now have the local Riverkeepers keeping close watch on the water quality, now, and the Ga. EPA is monitoring it VERY closely and consistently, with automated testing stations along its main length downstream of the factory, to try to ensure this never happens again.

So .... I'm naturally conflicted in this. I'd really like to keep my Unique, because it's really a "unique" powder when you want something that'll do very well, if not often be the best, for accuracy and performance for many calibers, and even cast in rifles, BUT .... I'll go with whatever they give us subsequent to losing some of my old standards if it'll help keep our dwindling wildlife population. After all, what's the point in good loads if we have nothing left to hunt????

[MT Gianni]

I believe Winchester powders go away after a time. It seems to be their business platform when it comes to powder.

[fecmech]

My only question on the new powders is shelf life. I hope it is the same as the old stuff.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I checked my inventory of powders to see how much W-231/HP-38 I had on hand. A little over 9 pounds sit on the cabinet shelf. I saw the price sticker from the large jug of w-231 that I bought at William`s back in Janurary of `09, it was $68.00!Robert

[rancher1913]

I'd give you 70 bucks for it, that way you could make a small profit on selling it.:bigsmyl2:

[dragon813gt]

I believe Winchester powders go away after a time. It seems to be their business platform when it comes to powder.

Why would they go away? Hodgdon has paid for the name. They're typically a dollar or two more a pound than Hodgdon equivalents. Makes no sense from a profit standpoint to get rid of a powder that's the exact same but makes them more money.

[Outpost75]

I have emailed the company, asking them for the original source material to either authenticate this or debunk it.

[sig2009]

With the following for these powders and the demand for them I find it kinda hard to believe they would drop off these popular powders that do bring them in money.Robert

Not hard to understand with what they did with the IMR powders.

[azrednek]

The biggest disappointment to me is the new or reformulated replacement powder will not have the abundant data developed over the past 40+ years. I will be anxiously be awaiting to see the answer Outpost75 gets. Hopefully it is simply an internet rumor that got twisted some where along the way.

[LabGuy]

I thought all Hogdgon/Winchester ball powders were made at the St. Marks Powder Plant (Florida) owned by General Dynamics.

[hc18flyer]

Today I was told by the Gunstop Reloading folks that W231/HP38 was being phased out and I needed to consider Titegroup or CFE Pistol. I am headed up to Minneapolis in a few days and was hoping to find a couple of the powders I need? Hope the are wrong. Flyer

[crashguy]

This may be the original post that started this .... http://ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/389607-limited-powder-read.html

[9.3X62AL]

Thank you, Outpost 75. The straight story from first-hand sourcing would be great to know.

As a practical matter, for the last 4-5 years WW-231 and HP-38 might as well have been phased out--it has been that long since I last saw any for sale, in late 2010 I bought a 4# caddy at the range store at Angeles Shooting Ranges. I've reduced all shooting drastically for the past few years, so I still have some of that 4# left.

[LabGuy]

I know I'm bragging, but I just ordered 8 lbs of HP38 from Powder Valley. It was only in stock for a short time.

[9w1911]

I missed it! arrg

[Tristan]

RE:
Win 231/HP38 Being Phased Out (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?285451-Win-231-HP38-Being-Phased-Out/page2)

ARRRRRGGGH!

Carry on.

[Outpost75]

The powder has not been discontinued nor have we been told that I going to be discontinued.

Mike Van Dyke
Customer Service Representative
Hodgdon Powder Company
6430 Vista Drive
Shawnee, KS 66218
913-362-9455 Ext. 109

From: Outpost75
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:32 PM
To: Help Account
Subject: W231 / HP38 being phased out? Please tell me it isn't true....

Can you authenticate this story? If this is another Internet hoax I would like to assist with rumor control.
It seems to be all over the net, but there seems to be no link to a source within the company.

Thanks.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219779&hl=

[Maximumbob54]

I figured this was bunk. It would make no sense when either one has for years been economical in price if they have such a high overhead.

[dragon813gt]

Should have also asked them if they are actually making it because it's nonexistent at the moment ;)

[Outpost75]

Production capacity is finite. They are producing more powder than they ever have.

Between the need for powder used in ammunition production and canister sales the demand is insatiable.

Hoarding and panic buying in addition to huge government purchases of ammunition has dried up the pipeline.

[9.3X62AL]

Many thanks, Outpost 75.

[Outpost75]

Production capacity is finite. They are producing more powder than they ever have.

Between the need for powder used in ammunition production and canister sales the demand is insatiable.

Hoarding and panic buying in addition to huge government purchases of ammunition has dried up the pipeline.

I had over 20 years experience in the firearms industry, on the engineering and manufacturing side of the house, not as a salesman or bean counter. I know how it works.

[Jeff Michel]

Thank you for your efforts.

[gc45]

Today's purchase: 8lbs of 231 and 8lbs of HP38. Had thought to get some Zip but did not as the two old standby's above will last me quite awhile...

GC45

[Outpost75]

I bought an 8 pound caddy of 231 this week.

[jonp]

Darn. I bought 200lbs for my retirement fund. I was going to sell it for $50/lb and double my money when it was off the shelves

[Mike67]

I just bought 4 lbs. of HP-38 this weekend at the Davenport, IA gunshow and the seller had another 6 one pounders and an 8 pound container plus one and four ponders of Unique. All for around $21.00 each per pound. Should of bought more but I still have 3 pounds of 231.

[9.3X62AL]

$21/lb. is right good pricing. Just SEEING the stuff would be encouraging.

[gc45]

You may yet get rich; powder, primer and lead might be more valuable than gold one day!

GC45

[FergusonTO35]

Discontinued or not, I would like to find some. Only this year am I discovering what a lovely 9mm powder it is.

[9.3X62AL]

Discontinued or not, I would like to find some. Only this year am I discovering what a lovely 9mm powder it is.

Yessir. 4.1 grains duplicates the ballistics of the 147 grain JHP bullet and its sub-sonic loading by Winchester, carried by my shop for 20+ years now.

[swheeler]

Win 231/HP38 Being Phased OutI sure hope not the 38, 45 and 7.62 Nagant will starve! I have about half of and old metal 6 pounder left. From what I've seen I thought for sure 2400 was phased out and I've used my stash of it up.

[9w1911]

This was debunked as false. Put this thread to rest as it only spreads false information.

[funnyjim014]

I dont know if its true but its still listed and the label got a makeover... dont see them discontinuing such a popular product

[9w1911]

This was debunked as false x 2

[jonp]

I happened across this thread while trying to find some HP38 info for 38sp. There was a ton of hp38 at the gunshow yesterday and I bought a couple of pounds for $20.