Animas & San Juan ruined now?

[popper]

Have been hoping Co would repeal maryjane law so I could visit again but now, fish kill all the way to NM? Those leach ponds usually have a lot of As in them.

[Duckiller]

The EPA did this! Why haven't people been fired or demoted and sent to some place north of Pt. Barrow?

[starmac]

???????????????????

[9w1911]

I am disgusted, I have spent much time in the great San Juan mountains and this just pains me.

[MUSTANG]

The first thing governments of all kinds do, is to exempt themselves from the laws and regulations that apply to the populace. The EPA is force, to be used against the private sector. The public sector remains exempt from accountability or scrutiny.

[bangerjim]

One condor in CA eats ONE single lead boolit and the SHTF with the greenies and EPA.

But let 4-5 MILLION gallons of highly contaminated water with As, Cr, Pb (1300X acceptable level!) and God knows what else, and nothing happens! That toxic soup will be around in several states for a looooooong time, killing wildlife, causing 3-eyed fish, and birth defects.

They say " no detrimental effects to wildlife has occurred." O........M..........G!

Wonder how much the EPA is gonna fine itself?!?!?!?!?!?

[starmac]

Mother earth has the best self healing properties there is, and is the best filter there is. I somehow doubt this has long lasting effects.
Could the EPA's cavilear attitude about this be because they do not consider this to be the disaster folks are makeing it out to be, or even close to as dangerous as it is made out to be, yet they have bankrupted many for much much less.

I have ero love for the EPA, and their liberal policies, but I have an idea this will be diluted makeing it's way down stream enough to not really be a major problem, as far as the wells go, mother nature is the best filter there is, and has been working for years. Testing private wells will give the people an idea of what they have now, but unless thay will have had them tested before, it still doesn't tell the whole deal. Many wells around the country are likely much above the EPA's ppm requirements with no ill effects.

[dg31872]

You can bet that the current administration will find a way to blame Bush and the Republicans.

[RayinNH]

They say they will clean it up but we'll get stuck with the damn bill.

[sparky45]

I say NO fines (we'd be fining ourselves) but jail time seems appropriate.

[starmac]

They fined the military base here heavily, that is basically fining yourself by my way of thinking. lol

Headlines the other day was Alaska has been exempted from the EPA, made my day until I read they are working on our very own special set of laws. I can't imagine it being a good thing.

[popper]

Co. mine officials say 'no problem there' but their paychecks come from the gov. Claim the mine has not been operatinal since the 30's, untrue, closed in IIRC 85. Go to google earth and look for gold king mine, Co. You can see the tailing flows and leach ponds. As & Hg used to clean the tailings is contained in the ponds. Claim the plug between 2 mines failed, but both had filled with water for years. Obviously no oversite on the operation or they 'found' a cheaper way to do it. Starmac - Animas & San Juan feed irrigation to SW Co. & N New Mexico farming, major economic impact. It's now cut off. Much worse than the Alaskan oil spill. All fishing will be halted, N. San Juan reservoir is prime trout fishing - hopefully east of Pagosa won't be harmed. They did clean up the ponds at the east end of Silverton, took my kids to the old mining town near Animas Forks, BLM then built a wall closing off the upper end of the canyon. Don't know what they were doing there. Cripple Creek/Victor mountains have been 'strip' mined lately, don't know what is left of Leadville or Pitkin area. Reminds me of 'cleaning' the Colorado river by flooding it. Took years to recover. Oh, EPA will provide bottled water to those that need it. Don't think the Durango water treatment plants are ready for filtering the acid/heavy metals, but I think they get some water from the other canyon. It's costing us (texans) millions to filter out zebra mussels, that problem has been around for 20 years and just now getting to fix it.

[MUSTANG]

They fined the military base here heavily, that is basically fining yourself by my way of thinking. lol

Headlines the other day was Alaska has been exempted from the EPA, made my day until I read they are working on our very own special set of laws. I can't imagine it being a good thing.


The theory is that the "Department/Agency" is fined (loss/diversion of appropriated funds) by the EPA to ensure the "Department/Agency" is actually trying to be a good steward of the environment. As always, follow the money. The fines supposedly go back to the Treasury (General Fund), but amazing how their budget continually gets increased because they are doing "Such a Good Job".

[starmac]

Co. mine officials say 'no problem there' but their paychecks come from the gov. Claim the mine has not been operatinal since the 30's, untrue, closed in IIRC 85. Go to google earth and look for gold king mine, Co. You can see the tailing flows and leach ponds. As & Hg used to clean the tailings is contained in the ponds. Claim the plug between 2 mines failed, but both had filled with water for years. Obviously no oversite on the operation or they 'found' a cheaper way to do it. Starmac - Animas & San Juan feed irrigation to SW Co. & N New Mexico farming, major economic impact. It's now cut off. Much worse than the Alaskan oil spill. All fishing will be halted, N. San Juan reservoir is prime trout fishing - hopefully east of Pagosa won't be harmed. They did clean up the ponds at the east end of Silverton, took my kids to the old mining town near Animas Forks, BLM then built a wall closing off the upper end of the canyon. Don't know what they were doing there. Cripple Creek/Victor mountains have been 'strip' mined lately, don't know what is left of Leadville or Pitkin area. Reminds me of 'cleaning' the Colorado river by flooding it. Took years to recover. Oh, EPA will provide bottled water to those that need it. Don't think the Durango water treatment plants are ready for filtering the acid/heavy metals, but I think they get some water from the other canyon. It's costing us (texans) millions to filter out zebra mussels, that problem has been around for 20 years and just now getting to fix it.

I am very, very familiar with the san juans and the animas. What I'm saying is that mother nature started diluting this spill the second it hit the stream, by the time it got to where it is used for irrigation, it will be diluted even more, with most of it passing through. I have no doubt the govt will declare an emergency, spend billions on a clean up, what I do doubt is their ability to clean it any better or faster than mother nature or the govt version of the danger it is.
As far as the govt cleaning up anything, I watched them fight mother nature in eastern NM, drilling wells and piping water back down in wells contaninating well water in another area because Texas sued because of natural salt in the river water. Mother nature won, all the while I fished and swam in said river with out even detecting salt.
There is always lots of drama in any sort of spill.

[MaryB]

Sounds like those old ponds could be mined for minerals! Pump them through filters to get the sediment and refine it!

[pjames32]

Latest estimate is 3 million gallons were released. The plume is now in Utah headed to Lake Powell. The San Juan was not affected until its confluence with the Animas in Farmington. The fly fishing area of the San Juan was not affected. This is ugly. I'm sure mother nature will eventually take care of most of the pollution. In the meantime domestic and ag users are not able to get water. This is bad!
PJ

[starmac]

They have also reported that the plume is diluted enough to no longer be visable from the air. Also have read where the levels of heavy metal diminished after the water went through the area. I have read no reports of any fish kills or any other animals, did I miss it or was there none??

[David2011]

In the late '70s-early '80s I lived in Farmington. Roughly 58% of the surface water in the entire state of New Mexico flows through Farmington and this spill is contaminating it. Three rivers; the Animas, San Juan and La Plata meet in Farmington and later join the Colorado at Glen Canyon where it continues on to Lake Mead. Yes, that's a big dilution but this is a lot of really bad heavy metals. The area is really fragile as the waterflow is dependent on snowpack runoff and away from the rivers it's high desert.

I hope this turns out well. It is affecting a lot of people.

David

[waltherboy4040]

Well they better start dredging the bottom soon since they don't seem to concerned about contaminants going down stream.

[xs11jack]

The no detrimental effects statement was probably issued 10 minutes after the break so of course no detrimental effects were found, YET!!!
Ole Jack

[starmac]

3 million gallons of contaminated water sounds terrible, but how many hundreds of millions of water will it be mixed with, and how will the ppm be then, they are already saying they have gone down considerably by sunday where the water had passed through. Up in that part of the world the Animas and Sanjuan is fast flowing, I'm betting this is filtered out to close to normal levels long before it gets to lake Mead, IF it ever does.

[Duckiller]

We in California and Arizona don't appreciate the EPA polluting what little water we have in the midst of a drought. Can we make the EPA take East Coast water and bring it to the West Coast at their expense. Lay off enough Senior administrators to pay costs.

[starmac]

I wish they could be dealt with, but I doubt there will be any water bad enough contaminated for cali to ever know any difference. It do make one think about what would happen if somehow the water supply got contaminated beyond use for Cali, I bet they would quit worrying if a minnow or two had water, or a golf coarse was green.

[Digger]

In the big picture here .. don't you have to have a college degree to work for the EPA ? ...
To make all the important decisions out there as far as these things go ? (oops !) ..:roll:

[popper]

I'd say their numbers are way off. 3 million gal is equal 6 of the small ponds in front of my city hall, 200x50x6, close to the leach pond size at the mine. Detected by river flow gauge @ 450 cu. ft/min = ~750 gal/min additional flow - How long to get to downstream (50 mi) to Durango. Texoma is dumping 1.5 Million cu. ft. per minute today, stream is running about 30 mph. I know the press doesn't always get it right but now they state a backhoe was trying to find the leak of < 250 gal/min - previously a 'plug' between 2 mines busted. Like Cecil, we will never know the true story. Yes, flow is downstream from Durango but fish go upstream. No fish in the outflow of the sulfur hot spring at Pagosa for many miles - too acidic.
http://pac.iupac.org/publications/pac/pdf/2002/pdf/7410x1843.pdf Arsenic and water.

[xs11jack]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/11/residents-demand-health-answers-as-mine-spill-fouls-rivers/
This is the latest from the spill area. The EPA is trying to make it go away. But who is going to pay the losses of the people in the area?
Ole Jack

[LynC2]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/11/residents-demand-health-answers-as-mine-spill-fouls-rivers/
This is the latest from the spill area. The EPA is trying to make it go away. But who is going to pay the losses of the people in the area?
Ole Jack

They need to lay off everyone from the top down in the EPA until their salaries equal the losses suffered by everyone affected by it, then use that for compensation.

[Wis. Tom]

Any private company that did this, would be done, but since govt. is made up of nothing but double standards, EPA receives free pass. Quite sad.

[BrentD]

Any private company that did this, would be done, but since govt. is made up of nothing but double standards, EPA receives free pass. Quite sad.

here in Iowa we have farmers that do this all the time with their manure ponds. They get a fine and not much more, and then everyone curses the "regulations".

For a month here, we could not drink the water from the tap because nitrates from farm fertilizers made it toxic. Not one farmer got his wrist slapped of course, and my water bill was not reduced one penny.

I don't see the EPA getting a free pass from this at all, and the corporate world doesn't give a rip either, and would pollute the hell out of everything if and when they can.

[starmac]

Any private company that did this, would be done, but since govt. is made up of nothing but double standards, EPA receives free pass. Quite sad.

Yep, soooo glad it was them instead of a private company. I would not put it past them to have done this on purpose either, how better to get approval of money and manpower to fund new superfund cleanup sites, not to mention, the publics approval of harrassing small miners, and large ones.

[BrentD]

Starmac, the EPA doesn't get money for a super fund site. They SPEND money. Private contractors get the bucks.

Are miners being harassed over this? I don't see it.

[starmac]

Miners have been harassed for quite a few years, big stink here a year or so ago when the epa swat teams flew helicoptors in and harassed miners, no violations were found, none reported, so why the swat gear hoopla. Any company that has statrted a new mine (for anything) has spent millions fighting the epa and greenies for the right to do so, most go away before the first shovel hits the ground.

Also the epa hires contractors to do the actual work, but how many inspectors are on each one, what does it do for their budget and ever growing power??

[BrentD]

starmac, so no miners have been harassed over this spill have they?

Mining does pollute, no wonder there are regulations. Would you like the USA to be like China?

[starmac]

Jesus, this mine was closed sometime in the 20's, not many regulations in effect at the time. We have large groups of money fighting ANY thing that made this country what it is, be it mining, drilling, farming, logging, and the epa has become somehow an alphabet agency that makes their own laws to suit them. I agree there has to be regulations, but if one can't see what over regulation has done to this country, he or she is looking at the world through rose colored fantasy glasses.

Every thing done polutes to some extent, should we just not wake up and go about our business anymore.
This deal is not farming, you can bet that if it had of been a private enterprize, they would have exhorbitant fines daily and spend ten times the actual cleanup amount to satisfy the EPA.
If your farmers are allowed to polute ground water, you are living in a rare part of the country.

[BrentD]

but if one can't see what over regulation has done to this country, he or she is looking at the world through rose colored fantasy glasses.

Tell me about it when you can't drink the water out of your tap.

[bangerjim]

Latest reports say the EPS admits fault and will have to clean up this mess (with our tax $$ of course!). Not a single EPA job will be lost!

And they say this is probably a decade's-long clean up spanning several rivers and states.....all the way to the gulf of Mexico! Or where ever the Colorado river runs dry!

A total *****. Gubmint at it's finest.

We were planning a trip up thru Durango and Silverton later this month. Not anymore.

Sad. That "stuff" had been sitting there for decades and they JUST HAD to "clean it up".......for the greenies.

banger

[starmac]

Tell me about it when you can't drink the water out of your tap.

I have well water, and have NEVER drank the water out of the tap, nor used it for cooking or any other human consumption period. It has way too much iron in it to be healthy or even taste good. If you are talking by tap water, from a utility co, have it tested and find out just what your water company is selling you, but then again I have never been a fan of utility companies adding bleach to the water they expect you to drink to keep up with the epa's rules, always preffered good well water.

[BrentD]

If you had well water in this part of the world, your nitrate count would be out of sight! Deep water wells that municipalities and rural water companies (as I use), are also now contaminated with nitrates, atrizine and the by products of glyphosate, among many other things. But we continue to support agriculture's right to make surface and deep aquifer water toxic. Then of course there are issues like the "dead zone" in the Gulf which is killing off parts of the seafood industry.

All of this "good stuff," and yet you think the regulations are over the top...

You are pretty out of touch.

[Harter66]

Carson river , Virginia City/Comstock .

Look up the above for a complete solution and end game .
No dog in this 1 . 3 million gallons ain't much in the grand scheme of things . Using math from above that's just 6 acre feet. Lake Powell has at least 30,000 acres of surface (I did not look it up I bet it's much more) it probably have an average depth even now of at least 10 ft that makes the dilute 50,000 to 1 plus the river blending . By the time it exits there the dilution will be down to twice that or 10 ppm for the whole original slurry leaked . Subtract from that the lead,gold,silver and mercury fall out riffle trap etc . Add back solubles lifted by contact with the others natural and exaggerated leaching , x time of flow and divide by hours of out flow and while it isn't clean water it will be potable in 2 weeks almost any where on the river that it was before. Bummer about the fish that's why there are hatcheries farming 10x nature's out put .

Arco worked a plan to pull uranium out of the leach ponds in the copper mine near Yerington Nevada ,too dangerous to leave too dangerous to remove . Several people wanted to clean up the mercury in the Carson river ,quick easy 80% recovery (we're talking about tons spread over 40 miles of river) ,their fee for it salvage rights and mineral rights for 2 yr ,the projected time line. Too dangerous to leave or remove . So basically the fish from Dayton to the Carson sink all the ponds and lakes in the Newlands project are inedible now not that it matters today most of that farming is gone as are the lakes.

If the mine closed 30 yr ago why are the leach ponds still wet ?
Drought yrs are the perfect time to fix wet places while they are dry .

Why does anyone think anything is going to change ?

[starmac]

There might be a reason I don't have liberal friends.

[rockrat]

Nothing will happen to the greenies wonderchild, the EPA. The equipment operators might get a reprimand, the supervisor will probably be transferred (with a bonus to shut them up) somewhere else and someone new will come in to oversee things.
The river around Durango is indefinitely closed as was just reported on the TV (Denver station). The water has cleared up quite a bit , and with the heavy rains expected, will dilute the contaminants even more, but its the riverbed and what toxic materials might have settled out are a concern, so probably why the river is closed. Its going to affect the rafting business (their season is probably over), along with farmers and the general populace as I suspect many inlets to water treatment facilities are still shut off.
I am sure there are going to be quite a few lawsuits, with the gov't claiming immunity, but under the Federal Tort Claims Act, I am not so sure that they would be immune. The EPA just might have to pony up $$$ over this. Maybe not as much as there are a lot of greenies down in the Durango area and I am sure they would be loathe to sue the EPA. If it was a private company, I am sure there would be a lot of lawsuits already and plenty of coverage by the TV networks showing all the protests, but since it was the EPA its pretty quiet it seems.

bangerjim--You can still come to the Durango area, just stay out of the river though and the spill was South of Silverton, so Silverton is fine, I would imagine. Just head over Red Mountain Pass going North and enjoy the Ouray/Ridgeway/Montrose area and the river here. Go Rafting in Glenwood Springs and enjoy the hot springs.

[BrentD]

There might be a reason I don't have liberal friends.

I don't know any conservatives that like drinking, swimming, or fishing in a cesspool either.

[popper]

Harter - snow melt & mine leakage. Ponds are at the bottom of the mountain, next to the creek. In the old days they pounded ore to gravel and used acid & cyanide to reclaim the metals, then refined the stuff with more heat and chemicals. Evaporation (leach) ponds get rid of the water so the carp is left. This spill probably washed all the old tailings into the old ponds, then into the creek. Heavy stuff will 'ripple' out but if you read the link I posted, high acid water keeps the As in the water. What really bothers me, EPA first said they were doing one thing (supposedly 'safe' method) and it turns out they were doing something else. Can't believe anything they say. They are taking claims from 'injured' parties now. One raft co. said they were loosing $10K a week from cancellations. If the water supply starts to dry up, ski resort will loose a lot more, as will the town. Took a side road (80's) and ended up driving around on the Sunshine mine property, huge 'tanks' of tailings, nobody around. The Valdez spill was bad but 'nature' recovered quickly. Gulf spill was on shrimp spawn grounds so not so fast. Animas only gets snow melt so recovery COULD be very slow. We'll see. Going to cost us a bunch though.
End rant.

[sundog]

Kinda sad. Anyone anywhere else had done something like, this would get CANNED. I was in Silverton end of June and had lunch and a beer or three in Grumpy's. Got the T-shirt to prove it!

As far as any greenies downstream that might be affected? They'll eat their own and sue just like anyone else. Don't think so? It's 'free money' and a chance to let the goobermint take care of them. This incident has created a whole new 'violated class' who can now identify themselves with other violated and oppressed classes.

[BrentD]

sundog, do you think they should NOT sue? Or that only "greenies" should sue?

And as for what happened (or will happen) to the crew that actually caused this, I have no information, but I sorta doubt they will get off easy on this.

I'm just trying to figure out what's the politically correct stance on all of this. It seems sad that it has to be turned into yet another political football rather than just something that needs to be dealt with, fixed, and prevented from happening again. But that's too much to ask these days. We have to make it into a political football. So, DAMN that effing GREENIE Richard Milhouse Nixon!!! This is all his fault, we should sue the bejesus out of his estate, hang his children, and sell his bones on ebay to pay for this mess.

More seriously, to me, it seems like a hell of a tragedy, no matter who or what caused it. A lot of people both green and anti-green, both conservative and anti-conservative, are all going to suffer for it. And that is just plain sad to me. I love that part of the world and have canoed the San Juan once and would like to again one day.

[square butte]

If those who are able do not use this as an opportunity to open up a can of Whoop &$$ on the EPA and take them down a goodly number of notches - then we all need to have our heads examined. I don't know who can do it - or how - But the time is now. Lord Help Us.

[sundog]

Suppose it was a corporate mining operation responsible. Would it be treated differently?

Gonna make the bastidges PAY! Right? Just like Exxon and BP. Deep pockets to sue.

So, the EPA is blamed. Are they somehow NOT accountable? Responsible? They don't have all the politically uncorrect evil profit in their coffers to dole out. Just tax payer money, because they really don't produce anything. No evil profits.

First, preservation of life. HUMANS first. Then, accountability, restoration of infrastructure and compensation for loss (this is where all the litigation will go on seemingly forever).

I lived in Colorado for seven years. Beautiful country! Yes, this is a tragedy.

[BrentD]

Suppose it was a corporate mining operation responsible. Would it be treated differently?

Gonna make the bastidges PAY! Right? Just like Exxon and BP. Deep pockets to sue.

So, the EPA is blamed. Are they somehow NOT accountable? Responsible? They don't have all the politically uncorrect evil profit in their coffers to dole out. Just tax payer money, because they really don't produce anything. No evil profits.

First, preservation of life. HUMANS first. Then, accountability, restoration of infrastructure and compensation for loss (this is where all the litigation will go on seemingly forever).

I lived in Colorado for seven years. Beautiful country! Yes, this is a tragedy.



What's evil about profits? And what does that have to do with this anyway?

Looks humans will be first - as they always are.

[starmac]

What's evil about profits? And what does that have to do with this anyway?

Looks humans will be first - as they always are.


Humans first as they always are, what a laughable statement. I reckon I need some of what you've been smoking the last 20 or so years.

Has anybody read where there have been any fishkills so far, the only fish I have seen mentioned are some that are already on the endangered species list MIGHT be hurt.

[BrentD]

Sorry, I don't smoke. Right now everything I see being done concerns human health. End of story.

[sundog]

Brent, don't read me wrong. Creation of wealth makes a healthy country for everyone. I was trying to point out some people look at big corporations and think that just because they have money, let's sue.

Yes, humans are first, well most of time. Sometimes salamanders, spotted owls, and red headed peckerwoods are more important...

[Mtnfolk75]

There might be a reason I don't have liberal friends.

Yep ....... [smilie=s:

[opos]

Don't have anything more to add to the thread..it's all been hashed out and it will continue for a long time...the thing that really pains me was to watch the EPA "administrator", Gina McCarthy, on TV mumbling the gibberish that the talking points always are...it's as if nobody was driving...everyone was in the back seat singing when all hell broke loose...she's an Obama appointee..been 30 years in the environment business..and still can't just say "we got a mess and we are working on it"...amazing....nobody is in charge but every one else is to blame..typical liberal crock. All she can come up with is "it pains me"...well "lady" it pains all of us a heck of a lot more than just your talking points...

http://www.thestate.com/news/article30721704.html

Here she was on the Daly show some time ago talking about Obama's plans to save the world and how conservation and environmental issues are key and how well they were being handled...maybe she'd like to go find John Stewart and ask for a replay of her talking points..typical "on the talk show circuit" minion from the Obama administration (small a intended)

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/jdi4wk/gina-mccarthy

[BrentD]

Brent, don't read me wrong. Creation of wealth makes a healthy country for everyone. I was trying to point out some people look at big corporations and think that just because they have money, let's sue.

Yes, humans are first, well most of time. Sometimes salamanders, spotted owls, and red headed peckerwoods are more important...

I suppose some folks do think like that. I don't think it has diddly to do with whether they are liberal or conservative. The reddest conservatives of the gulf coast went after BP over their little oil spill disaster.

As for the endangered species, I don't really know where they fit into this conversation here, but if you want to bring them up, I've personally worked on 3 such species. They are a royal PITA to work on. But they too take second seats to humans. That's HOW they became endangered in the first place. And most of them will never ever recover - because of humans being first by a country mile. When you actually work on these things first hand, you come to see a lot of details that the public and the internet forums, in particular, never see.

I'd like to see folks here not try to make a political football out of this. Frankly, I can't imagine and don't want to see a United States of America that looks like Mexico or China or Brazil when it comes to air and water pollution. And I don't see much of anything between that ugly reality and what we do have that does not involve the EPA. I don't like everything about them but they have been responsible for a lot of cleaner streams and cleaner air in the last 40 yrs or so.

[bangerjim]

I have well water, and have NEVER drank the water out of the tap, nor used it for cooking or any other human consumption period. It has way too much iron in it to be healthy or even taste good. If you are talking by tap water, from a utility co, have it tested and find out just what your water company is selling you, but then again I have never been a fan of utility companies adding bleach to the water they expect you to drink to keep up with the epa's rules, always preffered good well water.

Well..............you certainly would NOT want to drink well water that has this stuff leached into it! Even 5 miles away! Nasty stuff. And Mother Nature cannot filter out that much stuff. I work in the mining/metals/waste treat industries and you cannot get much more toxic than that 4-5 million gallons of soup this idiots dumped. They still have not confirmed exactly what was in there that was just fine where it was contained and did NOT need to be cleaned up!!!!!

Morons...........the lot of them.

Heaven help us all in the West.

And as far as well water..............yuck. Back in Iowa where I am from at least 20 people I knew of contracted various form of cancer by drinking that "pure" well water that became contaminated with DDT and pesticides from fields MILES around them. It was a cluster event as the local government called it.

"What goes down in the ground.............generally comes up out of the ground!"

banger

[popper]

"EPA on-scene coordinator Hayes Griswold explained to San Juan County, Colo., officials that an EPA team working at the mine on Wednesday underestimated how much pressure was hidden behind the debris that plugged the mine's entrance.

He said the team was not attempting to dislodge the plug, but was instead attempting to stick a pipe into the top of the mine."
With a back hoe? Why not a drill? Evidently caused a cave-in that broke the dike. Idiots all. This is the 3rd version - final one?

[pjames32]

The final version is TBD. We live at the confluence of the Animas and San Juan Rivers. We have spent a lot of time in the San Juan Mountains of SW Colorado. This is ugly with everyone calling out everyone else. The EPA crapped in their nest in the first 24 hours when they did not notify the state of NM about the discharge.
Now the politicians are getting their requisite time on the media so they can get re-elected.
Bottom line, no matter your politics, this is ugly. The mines in SW Colorado have been leaking "stuff" into the Animas for 150 years and probably will continue to do so. This is the second big spill in the Animas that I know about in the past 40 years. Irrigators/farmers, small community water systems, and rafting companies are taking the immediate hit. Larger community water systems can handle it for a couple months, then the brown stuff will hit the fan. Farmers are now assuming they will lose their crops if the Animas is their water source. Rafting companies are small businesses that will probably fold from the loss of income.
This is ugly. Yes, I blame the EPA for this disaster. What I want most is detailed info from EPA about what is in our river and how they plan to fix it. I'll be waiting past my lifetime for "what I want" as well as the outcome of the law suits that will be filed.
PJ

[Harter66]

Ive been in Nevada most of my life . Surrounded by mining . The EPA was preparing to sue the estates of the Comstock mining companies for the mercury in the Carson river in the 1980s . That didn't end well seems they were all dead.

Make the masses dependant
Disarm the people
Destroy the resources you can't control.
Sound familiar?

[40-82 hiker]

I am very, very familiar with the san juans and the animas. What I'm saying is that mother nature started diluting this spill the second it hit the stream, by the time it got to where it is used for irrigation, it will be diluted even more, with most of it passing through. I have no doubt the govt will declare an emergency, spend billions on a clean up, what I do doubt is their ability to clean it any better or faster than mother nature or the govt version of the danger it is.
As far as the govt cleaning up anything, I watched them fight mother nature in eastern NM, drilling wells and piping water back down in wells contaninating well water in another area because Texas sued because of natural salt in the river water. Mother nature won, all the while I fished and swam in said river with out even detecting salt.
There is always lots of drama in any sort of spill.


River bottom sediment will be contaminated for a very long time. That will be a long time cleaning itself up.

[starmac]

River bottom sediment will be contaminated for a very long time. That will be a long time cleaning itself up.

I doubt it will ever be completly clean. Reading the articles it claims they were already contaminated , and have been way before most of us were born, by these same contaminates leaching in, just not dumping in 3 million gallons at a time.
The article also claims the only thing harmed will likely be those that already on the endangered list and the reason they were on the endangered list originally was from the contaminates.

Now take all this with a grain of salt for more than one reason. The EPA is probably down playing the how bad it really is, since they themselves caused it. You can bet if any other entity caused it, it would be the end of the world as far as they are concerned.
So far as I know they have not made it known exactly what is in it to start with.
3rd, is they can say and do just about anything they want, cuz, who is going to prosecute them or take them to task for it.
I am suprized we haven't heard from indepent sources that have taken samples?

[MaryB]

We might as well pay for it out of our pockets because the taxpayers will take the hit for it. EPA should have its budget slashed by whatever the cost of the cleanup is! If it goes to zero to bad. EPA has become a regulation spewing monstrosity that is killing American business and it has to stop!

And no I am not against some regulation. But it has to make economic sense in the long run and not be some pet greenies wish list!

[starmac]

This is a link that if read explains why I said I would not be surprized to find the epa caused this disaster on purpose to get more funding, not to mention more regs and authority.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/toxic-mines-taint-the-wests-waterways/ar-BBlF6DS

[.45Cole]

The drainage from the mines is usually acidic and thus the solubility of heavy metals in the aqueous (water) solution is higher. The heavy metals will drop out of solution in the streams as the pH rises when diluted. Lead is minutely soluble in pH 7 (neutral) water. One must remember that the San Juans' main ore was galena, a lead-sulphur mineral. Streams have been flowing past the mineral for eons. Fish will die, and some wildlife will be lost, but the effects will be short lived. The Animas river has drained one of the most active areas of San Juans mining for a very long time. I believe that the Gold King halted production in the early 19th century after miners broke into lake Emma.

[popper]

"EPA officials have revealed that waste continues to surge from the abandoned Gold King Mine in Durango, Colo., into the river at a rate of up to 700 gallons per minute since the spill, ... " Gold King is/was connected to the Sunshine mine - the gold king owner says the sunshine owner is the cause of all the water. These mines have been operational for short times until the 90s. IIRC, the vein was 50' by several miles - great place to collect water. These mines are NORTH of Silverton. The narrow gauge RR may lose $$ too.

Streams have been flowing past the mineral for eons. Yup, just like placer stuff BUT no mines or reservoirs to collect the stuff.
Other than helping pay for the fix it is not my problem - just really ticked that the gov. is so poor at doing much of anything anymore AND get paid big bucks.
Edit: May have had a brain fsst, sunshine is on the other side of the valley. Anyway, this is interesting
http://www.expertgps.com/data/co/mines.asp 8400 mines in Co.

[sundog]

starmac, I was thinking it and going to suggest sabotage as a possible yesterday, but thought I might get accused of being a conspiracy type. I agree with you that Mather Nature is a powerful house cleaner. Some disasters are certainly more far reaching than others. And we should be good stewards of our environment. Other than the memorial, visitors to Hiroshima today might not otherwise be aware of the bombing 70 years ago if they do not know history. Certainly devastating at the time. A visit to Picher, OK, might make you think otherwise.

[pjames32]

Conspiracy theory? Published prior to the spill!
http://www.silvertonstandard.com/news.php?id=847
PJ

[bayjoe]

I went thru Pagosa Springs today and the San Juan looked ok, rocks on the bank were a little yellow.
Animas in Durango looked the same.
Both rivers flowing fairly fast for this time of year.

[.45Cole]

They will probably close the animas district off to 4 wheelers now. After reading the Editorial, it sounds like a setup for a site to me. I would bet that some of the people around town will greatly benefit from the work, but lose their freedom once the EPA is in the area.

[Lead Fred]

Think of it this way:

If I cant have it, no one can.

This is the current view of the state

[starmac]

If I understand it right, the epa has been wanting a superfund suite there for a while, the local and state govt has held them off.

Popper, where did you see info, that the mine has been worked on and off up til the 90's. not saying it hasn't been, but that would be very odd and risky for an underground mine, who has kept the shafts maintained all these years, so it can be worked occasionally??

[BrentD]

but lose their freedom once the EPA is in the area.

How's that? Will they become imprisoned in their homes, or will they be denied the right to say stupid stuff?

Sounds like, had this been a Superfund cleanup, this disaster would not have happened. Preventing the clean up looks really smart right about now, eh?

If a handful of nitwits with a backhoe could cause this calamity in just few minutes, it is hard to argue that the stuff was safely contained. Eventually a terrorist would have dumped it. ISIS and Al Qaeda are probably hunting hard and fast now to find other perched sludge ponds where they can do this.

[bangerjim]

Now their "lie line" is...."the river is back to normal"......at the leak. OMG, do they think we are stupid! Sure, if the flow of orange goop has slowed down, the up river flow has now pushed the bad stuff downstream. Out of sight.....out of mind. One of the guidelines of the EPA.

Now the rivers have a nice coating of all those heavy metals at the bottom just waiting for a flood to stir them up. And this stuff will reach the Mexico border......if the Colorado ever is allowed to flow that far! It will reach CA via the CAP canal....Central AZ Project......that sucks water out of AZ and sends it to poor dry starving illegals in CA.

And, believe it or not, crystal clean water can be laden with heavy metals!

They may be trying to mitigate the spill, but we need to mitigate the EPA in 2017!

[BrentD]

FWIW, the US is required by treaty to supply Mexico with something like a million acre feet of water from the Colorado. At least that is my recollection. It cannot be zero.

CAP goes to Phoenix and Tucson, not California, much less illegals in California. It first arrived in Tucson in the summer of 1991.

Who will keep America's waters clean and enforce the Clean Water Act (1977) if not the EPA? Would you like to create yet another agency? Or do you want to see more of this sort of catastrophy on a daily basis perhaps.

It is easy to complain, but not so easy to be constructively critical.

[sparky45]

EPA is an out of control Bureaucracy that needs to be severely cut. Let every state regulate EPA issues according to that states needs, NOT a Federal (political) organization. Their STUPID "water way" regulations make vast terraced Wheat Fields at odds with these 'over reaching" idiots; terraced Wheat fields to PREVENT erosion.

[BrentD]

The STATES regulate the Colorado River? How is that going to work? Colorado would never let one drop leave their state.

And then there is the matter of the international treaties as well.

Try to be realistic. The EPA has a hell of a lot of issues, but the states aren't the ones can can, much less would, fix them.

[popper]

IMHO, the Silverton article by the geologist was spot on. EPA takeover of the entire SW US. SuperDuperFund (now) to clean it all up. Another way of bankrupting the USA. Never let a disaster go to waste. Right at budget funding time too. Time to crank up the treasury presses. My son is a ChemE working in water treatment chemicals, he only buys a particular brand of bottled water, in DFW were we are supposed to have gov. approved water. Most of the yellow dirt is down stream but it's the stuff you can't see that does the damage. Starmac - was reading some about the mine, didn't save where, post if I can find it but yes they go back into the old mines when metal prices go way up. The mine property I went into in the 80's still looked operational but nobody around, it was in the cement creek area as Animas Forks area was closed by BLM. With 8500 mines in the state, lots to clean up BUT how do you do it? Mountains full of hole - remove the mountains? Let them leak into a pool that gets pumped dry & sediment removed (like they have been doing)? Maintain the shafts so pumping can be done safely? Mining technology is suposed to know how to do this. Lake Emma is on the other side of the mountain from gold king.

[dtknowles]

EPA is an out of control Bureaucracy that needs to be severely cut. Let every state regulate EPA issues according to that states needs, NOT a Federal (political) organization. Their STUPID "water way" regulations make vast terraced Wheat Fields at odds with these 'over reaching" idiots; terraced Wheat fields to PREVENT erosion.

The EPA is an organization with a very important job but is managed by political operatives and career bureaucrats. The problem with most Federal Agencies is that politics trumps productivity and proper solutions. One thing I have stressed here before, the big problem with federal programs the incentives are wrong, they foster and reward bad behavior. There is no incentive for the EPA to eliminate hazardous waste sites, that would just reduce the work they get funded to do and mean that some of them would be out of a job. Same story with environmental impact assessments for new projects, it the process was too easy then they would need less staff to do those assessments. Need a system that operates more like the gun buying background checks, if grounds for denying the permit is not found in a short window of public comment and impact assessment then the permit is approved. If a hazardous waste site is not cleaned up in a reasonable timeframe then the EPA team working that site is demoted and replaced with a new team. It the new team does not succeed in the designated time frame then the management team that selected the failed team gets demoted or fired. Government workers need to be evaluated based on their performance not their politics.

Tim

[BrentD]

The EPA is an organization with a very important job but is managed by political operatives and career bureaucrats. The problem with most Federal Agencies is that politics trumps productivity and proper solutions.

That's true, and not just of the EPA. Of course, everyone here, and most especially your post, buys right into this politicization.


One thing I have stressed here before, the big problem with federal programs the incentives are wrong, they foster and reward bad behavior. There is no incentive for the EPA to eliminate hazardous waste sites, that would just reduce the work they get funded to do and mean that some of them would be out of a job.
So, then they DO NOT, and NEVER DID want to make this a Superfund site - because, according to you, it would put them out of a job. The logic here gets pretty confusing. But which was it, they wanted a Superfund and were denied, or they did NOT want a Superfund site and were successful?


Same story with environmental impact assessments for new projects, it the process was too easy then they would need less staff to do those assessments. Need a system that operates more like the gun buying background checks, if grounds for denying the permit is not found in a short window of public comment and impact assessment then the permit is approved.
If a hazardous waste site is not cleaned up in a reasonable timeframe then the EPA team working that site is demoted and replaced with a new team. It the new team does not succeed in the designated time frame then the management team that selected the failed team gets demoted or fired. Government workers need to be evaluated based on their performance not their politics.


Since (according to posts above) local and state governments have been fighting the creation of this becoming Superfund site, do you hold that against the team too? Just curious how you would go about this. Do you know who the "team" is and how long this particular "team" has been in place and unable to get the job done (at least in part due to local .govs)? Clearly, the team there now needs to get their collective asses kicked for letting this stuff loose, but I'm really curious about their track record up to that point.

[bangerjim]

FWIW, the US is required by treaty to supply Mexico with something like a million acre feet of water from the Colorado. At least that is my recollection. It cannot be zero.

CAP goes to Phoenix and Tucson, not California, much less illegals in California. It first arrived in Tucson in the summer of 1991.

Who will keep America's waters clean and enforce the Clean Water Act (1977) if not the EPA? Would you like to create yet another agency? Or do you want to see more of this sort of catastrophy on a daily basis perhaps.

It is easy to complain, but not so easy to be constructively critical.

Then what is that big cement ditch you drive parallel with on I-10???????????????????????????????

CAP last time I checked.

And the list time I was in Yuma, the Colorado River was a mere trickle. I have no idea what is left by the it leaves the US.

You must be a liberal government person?

[BrentD]

Banger, check which way it flows next time. How is it you know so little about it that you don't even know which way it runs???????????

http://www.cap-az.com/

You must be an i...t.

[RogerDat]

It was not actually the EPA that screwed up, it was the private contractor they hired to do the work. There has been a steady push to have private industry do this type of stuff rather than having government staff do it. With the government unit just handling the contracts.

Now I don't know if that means the EPA is at fault for hiring the company, or the company stands on its own when they screw up. Guess it boils down to how decent is the reliability record of this contractor, was it reasonable to hire them or foolish. One of the issues with privatization is who gets fired. Which also brings into play do you fire someone that hired a well qualified contractor or applicant that then later screws up? I guess it depends on if you want everyone to play CYA all the time or make well reasoned decisions. Decisions that may not work out sometimes.

I do know that EPA did stop all of this type of work until they have a chance to figure out what went wrong in this case, aside from the obvious there is a mustard colored sludge flowing in the river. I also know my boss used to say if you haven't screwed anything important it only means you never work on anything important. If one is going to work on old abandoned mine retention ponds you have to be really careful because when things go wrong they go really wrong.

One of the first thoughts I had was couldn't they have dug a barrier or holding pond just in case things went wrong? Then I started thinking about it, that would get really expensive digging and then back filling a big safety holding area. Especially if it almost never served any useful purpose. That might well be considered excessive expense and a waste of taxpayer funds. Don't need a parachute...... until you REALLY need a parachute.

[bangerjim]

Banger, check which way it flows next time. How is it you know so little about it that you don't even know which way it runs???????????

http://www.cap-az.com/

You must be an i...t.

Another addition to my ignore list!

[dtknowles]

That's true, and not just of the EPA. Of course, everyone here, and most especially your post, buys right into this politicization.


So, then they DO NOT, and NEVER DID want to make this a Superfund site - because, according to you, it would put them out of a job. The logic here gets pretty confusing. But which was it, they wanted a Superfund and were denied, or they did NOT want a Superfund site and were successful?


Same story with environmental impact assessments for new projects, it the process was too easy then they would need less staff to do those assessments. Need a system that operates more like the gun buying background checks, if grounds for denying the permit is not found in a short window of public comment and impact assessment then the permit is approved.


Since (according to posts above) local and state governments have been fighting the creation of this becoming Superfund site, do you hold that against the team too? Just curious how you would go about this. Do you know who the "team" is and how long this particular "team" has been in place and unable to get the job done (at least in part due to local .govs)? Clearly, the team there now needs to get their collective asses kicked for letting this stuff loose, but I'm really curious about their track record up to that point.

How does my post buy in to the politicization of the agency. I think the agency should do its job and not worry about the politics. If a site is dirty they need to either clean it up or secure it so the contamination can't be spread and people will not be exposed to the contamination.

I did not say anything about whether it should or should not have been a Super Fund site. I said "There is no incentive for the EPA to eliminate hazardous waste sites, that would just reduce the work they get funded to do and mean that some of them would be out of a job." They need to put a bow around these project, clean them up or secure them, stop with half way measures, slow clean up and baby sitting. I was talking about the agency and how it operates, I can't comment on this particular disaster but clearly they failed one way or another.

On permit approvals, it seems that if you don't have a lot of political support the process can take a long time as the ones with political support get top priority. I think every permit should be have a time limit after which it is automatically approved unless they prove it should me denied.

Tim

[popper]

Version #4 from EPA. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/13/months-ago-colo-town-resisted-allowing-epa-tests-that-caused-toxic-disaster/

[Duckiller]

BrentD there is no treaty that requires Colorado River water must flow into Mexico. It is a major news event when any significant volume of water flows into Mexico. Adjudication of water rights for the Colorado River used data from a very wet period. There is not enough water in the river to meet all American rights. Canals take water away from the River not to it. I am not a moderator or any official with this web site but if you wish to stay here and be listened to you should not call anyone an idiot. You may have difference of opinion with another member but be polite about it.

[Duckiller]

BrentD just checked your profile. You have been around enough to know how to behave and have seen the results of poor behavior.

[BrentD]

Another addition to my ignore list!

I guess you hate it when you are wrong. Sorry about that.

[BrentD]

BrentD just checked your profile. You have been around enough to know how to behave and have seen the results of poor behavior.

Hey dude, I'm the one that got called a liberal. Who are you telling to behave?

[pjames32]

The latest from the Silverton paper=
https://sfowa-usw.sharefile.com/wv/wordviewerframe.aspx?PdfMode=1&access_token=KAhnNxlfuBvJdw72NQKJmUlaFrDTKs0rxnoAy FtH5Z7gGl[plus]gLq7PiUoNZLTnDH6RkoYsJXzb9mPuBgaHC[slash]YZLwjHCkrq6SI6czirc9su7KnMy4Uy7z17WHLTAkgygdaBBLEI RAEY8MFBMsMK[plus]lDQRQYlQVGYoNAi4u2tBJZdW7KdH06PYc2SEp3SBbJN8P9AS[slash]rI5Czf9Kq3mBnNHFOP38I3[plus]jFkVWKCgCKnlPJsHphpKHS3Fbg8fNVK57[slash]EESj2YCFJAgnnjb3LfuYLLDZeWf6WczsyF9QQu7RjLqHy[slash]RPV[slash]wMyaMUxKgmupqJeq[slash]Q5XAhIao5DC[plus]kYjgCvfqeKK6HOdeUyyIRH15nzjOza8HntbtI8NvajvB2ZLVhC GsV8fvuJ8vya6Xvp1szFHIKN[plus]IoYOoxejxS1Z4BOEW1Sw4CC3YVpKuRpOgIlf7eNSfUPwGQ9NRC xSXbLgrdd5[plus]zTbMWwwIYrbWP8yh7nqnORBufDtUMsLPrNhso5NSee2N9NiY5G M7NVbIMZhdk0[plus]cAu[plus]imM1A0TQK9N3RVYL0Lbb[slash]bAExMSYKEPBXbeoXx[slash]8pSYlmlJkTzOLl8ldIEdrw[slash]4BiwPV3vPs49AjeE2SwXWof4xsgvQLVbmWHQlrS1164f1Ux6gh LhHsmlcHEKXsfHv725pqBnDbeNWeJGQE[plus]4kBPDqViFD0ohykUAI0j[slash]pmhHGFd[plus]K8lehjg[slash]hSOxkyFT6HOnP58Y8ZdLwJNh[slash]9symsVLFHrDImhBt2LUzVKM[slash]S314dF2n7rr9OKgP5jCmYe7z3HUqag4QVW7xuUYFbSCNdARKp[plus]oDHbOvaZlNiQCRcKlrxRiENZiksvqKy3iZ3q4xkn7cV1kuIGbb khPRn7Q[equal][equal]&WOPISrc=https://sfwopi-usw.sharefile.com/WopiServer/wopi/files/fi214d6d-f01a-4b2b-ed92-29408db0ff30

Banger-I still love u! Now is a great time to visit the Silverton area. The Texans are staying away.
We plan to go in the next week if possible.
PJ

[BrentD]

BrentD there is no treaty that requires Colorado River water must flow into Mexico. It is a major news event when any significant volume of water flows into Mexico. Adjudication of water rights for the Colorado River used data from a very wet period. There is not enough water in the river to meet all American rights. Canals take water away from the River not to it. I am not a moderator or any official with this web site but if you wish to stay here and be listened to you should not call anyone an idiot. You may have difference of opinion with another member but be polite about it.


Absolutely there is a Colorado River treaty with Mexico and has been for, what a century? Until 2012, we owed them a fixed number of acre feet per year. We even have to run a desalination plant there on the border for them. I'm sorry but you are simply wrong.

I don't claim to know much about western rivers but apparently several of you know a whole lot less and can't admit it.

The major news events with respect to the Mexican portion of the Colorado is not when it gets to Mexico - heck we have to pump it there if necessary to meet quotas. The miracles are when it actually makes it to the Sea of Cortez. That's what you are remembering.

As for the reprimand I note that you are pretty one sided about that. Why is that?

[Duckiller]

What is the name of the treaty that gives water to Mexico? If you wouldn't hide where you are from it might help us understand your silly posts.

[BrentD]

Duckiller, you can google as well as I can. But this is common knowledge - or it used to be. Apparently American's are so well educated in these matters any more. You, especially should know about this, in your neck of the woods, your hydration hangs in the balance.

[BrentD]

What is the name of the treaty that gives water to Mexico? If you wouldn't hide where you are from it might help us understand your silly posts.

And since you have taken to scolding me, I'll take exception to your calling my posts silly when you can't even get fundamental facts straight. I think you are pretty out of line actually, as you obviously have an agenda that is heavy on political correctness and not well supported in factual details.

[Duckiller]

Brent I think you tell untruths and you are going to join my ignore list. Must be a southwest thing that we don't want to be insulted by people who don't know much. There is not treaty turkey. We have to send no water down the Colorado River to Mexico.

[BrentD]

That's fine Duckiller. Apparently, you can't face the truth.

Are you too lazy to look for yourself or are you afraid to admit that you are wrong?

Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance and fear of being shown you don't have a clue. Sad it is.

1,500,000-acre-foot (1.9×109 m3)/year of Colorado River water is allocated to Mexico, pursuant to the treaty relating to the use of waters of the Colorado and Tijuana rivers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tijuana_River) and of the Rio Grande (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande), signed February 3, 1944, and its supplementary protocol signed November 14, 1944. Also, the lower basin can get an additional 1,100,000-acre-foot (1.4×109 m3)/year in surplus conditions.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact#cite_note-usbr.gov-2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact
http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/pao/pdfiles/ucbsnact.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_river_dispute
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/21/us/us-and-mexico-sign-deal-on-managing-colorado-river.html?_r=0

30 seconds of searching will produce hundreds of additional documents.

There is an old formula that has proven itself over and over again.
Ignorance + Arrogance = Stupidity

[BrentD]

rockrat, the denial of some people here is too much. They can't admit that they might not have a clue what they are talking about.

[Omega]

Not taking sides as I think its getting too personal here; but there have been agreements/treaties going back for some time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact

"In addition to this, 1,500,000-acre-foot (1.9×109 m3)/year of Colorado River water is allocated to Mexico, pursuant to the treaty relating to the use of waters of the Colorado and Tijuana rivers and of the Rio Grande, signed February 3, 1944, and its supplementary protocol signed November 14, 1944. Also, the lower basin can get an additional 1,100,000-acre-foot (1.4×109 m3)/year in surplus conditions."

Edit: A bit slow at posting; never mind.

[MaryB]

What is an easier fix? Build a filtration plant to handle 500 gallon per minutes of toxic water or clean an entire river system of toxic sludge after they let said water flow be dammed up inside the mine until it finds somewhere else to flow out of? Sheer government stupidity! They could have built the filtration plant without declaring the area a superfund site too!

I can see the small towns that live off tourism not wanting the entire area declared a superfund site, if they do it there goes all your tourists...

[LeRoy.Beans]

That's fine Duckiller. Apparently, you can't face the truth.

Are you too lazy to look for yourself or are you afraid to admit that you are wrong?

Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance and fear of being shown you don't have a clue. Sad it is.

1,500,000-acre-foot (1.9×109 m3)/year of Colorado River water is allocated to Mexico, pursuant to the treaty relating to the use of waters of the Colorado and Tijuana rivers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tijuana_River) and of the Rio Grande (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Grande), signed February 3, 1944, and its supplementary protocol signed November 14, 1944. Also, the lower basin can get an additional 1,100,000-acre-foot (1.4×109 m3)/year in surplus conditions.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact#cite_note-usbr.gov-2)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact
http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/pao/pdfiles/ucbsnact.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_river_dispute
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/21/us/us-and-mexico-sign-deal-on-managing-colorado-river.html?_r=0

30 seconds of searching will produce hundreds of additional documents.

There is an old formula that has proven itself over and over again.
Ignorance + Arrogance = Stupidity

Dang, that musta hurt!

[bangerjim]

Now you see why he is the latest member of my growing ignore list.

This place is not for name-calling!

How about a time-out?????????????????

[LeRoy.Beans]

Now you see why he is the latest member of my growing ignore list.

This place is not for name-calling!

How about a time-out?????????????????
Looks like you started the name/insult stuff.

Callin' someone a liberal is ugly - real ugly. Watchya expect?

[bangerjim]

Calling someone liberal or conservative is NOT insulting to a normal person on here. Those are merely political persuasions most of us all follow.

Calling them nasty names and insulting their personality, mental capacity, and over-all being just plain old nasty s%%t...........now THAT IS definitely ugly in my book. And to most civilized individuals on here I know. Suggesting to someone they may be incorrect in their info/viewpoint is one thing. I have no problem with that. Getting verbally abusive and name-calling is not acceptable to me. And I hope to most on here.

banger

[BrentD]

Hey banger, follow your own advice and give it a rest. You intended an insult and you accomplished that. Quit trying to polish your turds. You aren't fooling anyone. least of all me.

[dtknowles]

Calling someone liberal or conservative is NOT insulting to a normal person on here. Those are merely political persuasions most of us all follow.

Calling them nasty names and insulting their personality, mental capacity, and over-all being just plain old nasty s%%t...........now THAT IS definitely ugly in my book. And to most civilized individuals on here I know. Suggesting to someone they may be incorrect in their info/viewpoint is one thing. I have no problem with that. Getting verbally abusive and name-calling is not acceptable to me. And I hope to most on here.

banger

I disagree, I have been called a liberal here many times and most times it was clearly meant as an insult. Members here use "liberal" as a insult on this forum because it is one insult that is tolerated. I told someone once that I thought they must have Alzheimer's and I got an infraction from a moderator, some have learn that certain kinds of insults are tolerated. Most of us find being called a liberal an insult but the PC police here have their own standards - as the owner and the mods are entitled to do.

Tim

[popper]

Probably the best account of what really happened from someone who knows their stuff. The Hickenpooper takes a drink (or sip) of the 'clean' Animas river water. Maybe that will work to our benefit? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/13/exclusive-geologist-who-predicted-epa-spill-they-just-didnt-think/
Second letter to Silverton paper from the geologist.

[Minerat]

More likely Hickenstuppers people ran it thru a filtration pump or bottle first. And as for this disaster - as the DR. said when the little boy swallowed a coin, "This too will pass".

It seems the earth has a miraculous way of healing itself if man just stays out of the way. However with that said, heads should roll with the EPA just like they held the BP employees and executives responsible for the oil spill damage in the gulf.

[popper]

I think Hickenpooper's stunt was great. Too bad the press has gone to other 'news'. Wasn't a problem before, per testing, evidently isn't now. EPA 'accidentally' moved the sludge deposit downstream; so what the heck was the EPA doing there? Kinda like the new ( few years back) bridge way east of Durango with the sign announcing ' your tax dollars at work (or was it 'shovel-ready jobs')' with NOTHING on either side of the highway?

[popper]

Version #5? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/16/epa-fails-to-acknowledge-it-coerced-mine-owner-to-grant-access/
$35k/day if he doesn't let them onto his property?
It will be very interesting this year with House budget talks, won't defund PPH or EPA unless we put pressure on them.

[starmac]

They can always do it alaska style, small body armour clad armies just move in with no explanations as to who they are or why. No coercion needed that way.

[popper]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/17/mine-owner-epa-record-toxic-dumping-dates-back-to-2005/?intcmp=trending The facts. Err, no, the sweep under the rug (or down an old mine shaft to save real cleanup $$) so it disappears.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/17/epa-watchdog-investigating-toxic-mine-spill-in-colorado/ The cover-up.
Gets more interesting every day.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asarco
Asarco is owned by Grupo Mexican, 1965, filed for chaper11 in 1990 one could assume to avoid costs of cleanup. I don't assume they were responsible for all the problems, but when you buy it, you own it.

[popper]

The saga continues. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/17/epa-hiding-data-from-toxic-spill-it-caused-in-colorado/

[popper]

And it continues.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/20/before-colorado-mine-disaster-epa-project-caused-spill-in-georgia/

[popper]

And more ... http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/26/geologist-and-mine-owner-blast-epa-whitewash-of-colorado-toxic-spill-absolving-itself-of-blame/
Reps need to be called, pressure put on them to reduce EPA funding, Debt funding bill is coming up soon. There isn't an NRA to lobby this stuff. Yes, I know this isn't 'gun' or casting related but most don't go in the 'pit'.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/30/exclusive-rep-kevin-cramer-on-epas-attempted-waterway-grab-private-property-rights-are-whats-at-stake/
More climate 'control' by the Admin.

[BAGTIC]

And all of this is the inevitable consequence of excessive population. We could solve a lot of our social and economic problems if we would just face up to the root cause.