Walking Dead Mental Exercise- How to cast without equipment?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I'm not sure if these subjects fly around here, but even if you ignore the zombies you can maybe imagine a situation of hardship where you may need to cast and fire boolits without proper equipment.

An obvious source of lead would be picking off wheel weights of all the abandoned cars along the road. Melting them could be done with a campfire and pot.

The mould seems to be a hang up. What would you guys use? Something out of clay? Kitty litter perhaps? Maybe a wood mould? I think I'd just make a long tube of lead then cut it into sections. From there I figured I could knurl the lead boolots by rolling it on a steel rasp with some pressure then tumble it with some crunched up pencil lead for a crude lube.

Powder would be the holy black since it seems to be the easiest to make.

Primers could be reformed and filled with match heads. Cases would stay fire formed and be crimped back with pliers. I think this would work with a revolver.

Anyway, I thought it would be fun to come up with a strategy with the TV show coming back this month.

[HATCH]

I doubt you will get many takers on this thread.

Go back in time to the civil war and muskets...
That will answer your questions...

No gun powder, no primers.... I am thinking crossbows

[Bigslug]

The world still has plenty of ammo that was produced for WWII.

[dragon813gt]

Bow and arrow for a real survival situation. I'd be looking for loaded ammo first and foremost. You won't have time to cast and reload in a survival situation.

[longbow]

Maybe do a little reading into history of the early North American gunsmiths and find out how they made guns and bullet moulds. Not only did they make the guns and bullet moulds from very basic and raw materials but they made the tools to make the guns and bullet moulds.

Yes, you do need some basic materials and it is pretty difficult to smelt iron on a small scale but with some iron and steel it is amazing what someone with the skill set can make... like Damascus (pattern welded) steel knives, swords, spear heads, etc. Like making a wood rifling machine machine by hand with the only metal piece being a small single steel cutter.

In your scenario there would be lots of scrap steel around that would be useful and easily obtainable to make bullet moulds out of and lots of steel to make D-bits or spade drills out off. With a simple brace a man can cut a simple steel (or aluminum) mould that would far exceed what could be made from wood, clay of kitty litter. Look up the Ideal Cylindrical mould for example. I make similar mould sin .30 cal. .44 cal. and 12 ga. and they work very well.

Making a gun of course is a lot more difficult but if you had one, you could certainly make a simple bullet mould.

Lack of primers could be an issue but if there are match heads, crude primers can be made from match heads, and yes they work.

Gunpowder is a bit trickier and probably not doable for the average apocalypse survivor unless again match heads or similar was used and again, yes they work. Not well but they work.

All in all for most apocalypse survivors scavenging would be the most effective means of obtaining firearms and ammunition at least until it was all gone.

My view is that a crossbow is to difficult to build and too slow to use to be really effective so I would go with spears, swords, hatchets, etc. for hand weapons and a wood bow for a longer distance weapon. Think about how devastating the English longbow was in warfare and more effective in battle than crossbows. Yes, I make wood bows and they really aren't hard to make.

But seriously, do some reading and find out how your ancestors made it through life from day to day with far less information, available knowledge and materials than we now have. They had common sense and passed important knowledge down through the family.

In my opinion, two of the most basic of tools that allowed human kind to advance up the food chain are edged weapons and cordage.

With a knife/hatchet or other edged blade (steel, flint, obsidian, etc.) you can cut, chop, slice, make spear points and arrow heads and with cordage you can snare, trap, sew, tie (arrow heads to shafts), restrain (livestock). Pretty impressive and important things from very basic tools you can (or should be able to) make yourself.

My $0.02. YMMV

Longbow

[bhn22]

Newer matches are made with much less of a "strike anywhere" tip. Watch for this if you intend to reman primers, it'll take more to do each one. Don't be fooled by the length of the white tips, some of them are simply white coloring to make them look the same as the old ones. The newer "green" matches will probably disappoint you.

[maclords]

I think you can make a mold from wood. Might not last long, but then make a new one. I saw a guy do it on one of the history channel reality shows for a round ball. Charring the cavities prior to first pour was said to be important. Here's a thread from here after quick search; maybe there are more or better for your purpose.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?120451-Pour-lead-in-a-wooden-mold

[00buck]

all the wheel weights will be zinc and steel by then..

hmm

[Digital Dan]

My primers are made of flint. Powder is black, the load modest. If you don't have a mould, well, I don't know what to tell you.

[longbow]

You can make a mould from wood alright but I certainly wouldn't expect an accurately sized boolit that you could use in a rifle. You want a boolit for say a .30 cal rifle and you expect to cast a boolit of about 0.310" +/- a thou or so with a wood mould? If it casts at less than 0.309" you will get leading and poor accuracy at best. If it casts at much more than 0.312" you could run into significant pressure issues (if using regular smokeless powder).

Now, for a smoothbore musket or shotgun you just might get away with casting an undersize slug or "ball" and patching to get decent fit.

It is no harder to make the mould in metal so why would anyone use wood? Even plaster or ceramic might make a serviceable mould but wood...?

Just my opinion of course but based on about 50 years of trying things out and learning as I went.

YMMV of course and there is nothing wrong with trying things out yourself but again, I would recommend reading some historical information on how our ancestors lived and made "stuff" without internet, libraries, television, social media, GPS (they lived and hunted in bush like most nowadays have never seen and seemed to find their way home with food). Those people had useful skills and knowledge and were eager to pass it on. That's how we got here.

I'll shut up now.

Longbow

[GhostHawk]

Well first off I am not sure I will ever again be separated from my molds and supply's.

Second, Slingshot is one answer that comes to mind. Shot does not have to have perfect shape.
Latex type rubber is everywhere. A 50 caliber ball with a 30=40 lb draw weight of rubber would I suspect be lethal.

[FISH4BUGS]

All the better reason for keeping enough components and lead for 50,000 rounds. That should last, don't ya think?

[HATCH]

I am thinking that even if the world were to go to the dark ages tomorrow, there is enough supplies that we will not have to deal with this for over ten years.

Hell, just think of all the homeland security 40 cal ammo..... LOL

[bedbugbilly]

If you want to survive . . . necessity will dictate what you need to do if you want to continue to survive . . . . and how you do it. Personally . . . I don't see how any of the younger generation will be able to survive without their smart phones, continuous "texting", computers and many of them feeling that they are "entitled".

Too many people live in a "fantasy" world today when they ought to be concentrating on living their life in the present and striving to make this world better for the generations to follow . . .

You are assuming that you will still have "possessions". The better question would be how would you survive with "nothing" . . nada . . . where everything is destroyed but what nature provides . . . what is left of it. After all. . . if there are "few survivors" . . . that means that your food source . . animals, birds, etc. . . . will also be pretty much extinct. It's going to be kind of hard for those who only know how to call or text on their cell phones for "take out" . . . .

I was bought up by parents who went through the Great Depression . . . when there was very little for many and they actually did have to "survive" . . . no work, not enough food, no money, no heat and one set of clothes . . and those had patches . . . in essence . . . less than the "bare necessities" . . . and they were "survivors" in my book. I don't think that most people today would even have a clue on what to do to go through what that generation did . . . nor will there be another "greatest generation" like them ever. Sorry . . . but I'm old and cranky . . . that's my excuse! LOL :-)

[dondiego]

Lewis and Clark used air guns.

[Lead Fred]

I made it, and everything needed to operate it.

146335

If I ever have to use my heirloom to live by.

It would be a sad state of affairs.

Me thinks Im going to pass, and the Grand Boy will have a life time to figure out how to work it.

[IraqVet1982]

I have enough ammo in my basement for survival... Not war, but survival.

[Avery Arms]

Pretty much just read the script and do what you are told, don't look directly at the cameras or giggle uncontrollably at the silly costumes and situations.

TV shows aside if you cannot obtain good ammunition or components you should be looking to replicate factory ammo as closely as possible. If you cut corners and try to load ammunition with poorly formed bullets, match heads and pliers to crimp the bullet in place you will have extremely poor quality, weak and unreliable ammunition that will be of little use in an emergency.

Construction of a usable bullet mold or sizing die is not complicated, if you can find a lathe or drill press it can be powered with a generator or rigged to anything that turns (water, gas, steam, treadmill, bicycle, hand crank) and used with a drill and reamer or in the case of a lathe a boring bar. You could also drill and ream your dies and molds with hand tools.

Primers can be reloaded or the cups and anvils can be formed or cut out of brass. You will have to have actual priming compound of which there are dozens of recipes using various chemicals. You will have to make or obtain the neccesary chemicals or else find an alternative such as match heads or toy caps but that still means finding a supply of strike anywhere matches or toy caps. These "alternatives" are not something you are likely to "find" in large quantity and they do not make good quality, reliable primers.

Powder would be guncotton, black powder, sweetener or epoxy based propellent depending on what is available.

Casings would be re-used, converted, drawn or turned depending on what tools and supplies are available. Without a lathe I doubt you will be able to make a suitable pistol or rifle casing but a paper shotgun shell with a metal base would probably be doable on a makeshift homemade lathe or drill press.

Blank cartridges (commonly available in UK/Europe with minimal restrictions) and industrial (hilti, ramset) powder actuated tool cartridges can and have been converted for firearm use. Rimfire tool cartridges can be converted to fire bullets in .22 firearms or installed off-center and used as primers in custom made centerfire cartridges.

Without commercial reloading tools and components 99.999% of the general public would never be able to make good quality ammunition and most would not even try. If you want to be in that .001% that actually would succeed you will actually have to learn what you are doing, learn to use the tools, chemicals etc. Most of the books directed towards amature "survivalists" making their own ammo (poor man's james bond, firefox, US army field expedient manual etc) are very lacking in technical know-how and really more intended to give the reader false confidence.

The old books by Authors such as Frost, Howe etc offer far better information as do a number of websites such such as castboolits and a number of others directed towards reloading, fireworks and rocketry.

Given limited time, resources and skills a very powerful arrow gun can be made from PVC pipe with a ball valve, it only takes about 75-100psi air pressure and you have more power than any modern bow or crossbow. Bows/crossbows are faster to reload but most people will not have the skills or the time and materials to build a really good one that is powerful and holds up.

[fixit]

the easiest material for mould would be some softer stone materials. soapstone used to be fairly common for bullet mould back in the blackpowder era!

[mold maker]

Bow and arrow for a real survival situation. I'd be looking for loaded ammo first and foremost. You won't have time to cast and reload in a survival situation.

If your ancestors couldn't/wouldn't have done it you wouldn't be here.
There was a time when there were no store bought, and very few stores. Even guns were blacksmith made. Folks either learned to plan for hardship or didn't make it.

[43PU]

IF any SHTF situation happens, I will stay in my home, in my lazy boy with all of my stuff around me. (advantages of living in 180 acres)

43PU

[lobowolf761]

Pretty much just read the script and do what you are told, don't look directly at the cameras or giggle uncontrollably at the silly costumes and situations.

TV shows aside if you cannot obtain good ammunition or components you should be looking to replicate factory ammo as closely as possible. If you cut corners and try to load ammunition with poorly formed bullets, match heads and pliers to crimp the bullet in place you will have extremely poor quality, weak and unreliable ammunition that will be of little use in an emergency.

Construction of a usable bullet mold or sizing die is not complicated, if you can find a lathe or drill press it can be powered with a generator or rigged to anything that turns (water, gas, steam, treadmill, bicycle, hand crank) and used with a drill and reamer or in the case of a lathe a boring bar. You could also drill and ream your dies and molds with hand tools.

Primers can be reloaded or the cups and anvils can be formed or cut out of brass. You will have to have actual priming compound of which there are dozens of recipes using various chemicals. You will have to make or obtain the neccesary chemicals or else find an alternative such as match heads or toy caps but that still means finding a supply of strike anywhere matches or toy caps. These "alternatives" are not something you are likely to "find" in large quantity and they do not make good quality, reliable primers.

Powder would be guncotton, black powder, sweetener or epoxy based propellent depending on what is available.

Casings would be re-used, converted, drawn or turned depending on what tools and supplies are available. Without a lathe I doubt you will be able to make a suitable pistol or rifle casing but a paper shotgun shell with a metal base would probably be doable on a makeshift homemade lathe or drill press.

Blank cartridges (commonly available in UK/Europe with minimal restrictions) and industrial (hilti, ramset) powder actuated tool cartridges can and have been converted for firearm use. Rimfire tool cartridges can be converted to fire bullets in .22 firearms or installed off-center and used as primers in custom made centerfire cartridges.

Without commercial reloading tools and components 99.999% of the general public would never be able to make good quality ammunition and most would not even try. If you want to be in that .001% that actually would succeed you will actually have to learn what you are doing, learn to use the tools, chemicals etc. Most of the books directed towards amature "survivalists" making their own ammo (poor man's james bond, firefox, US army field expedient manual etc) are very lacking in technical know-how and really more intended to give the reader false confidence.

The old books by Authors such as Frost, Howe etc offer far better information as do a number of websites such such as castboolits and a number of others directed towards reloading, fireworks and rocketry.

Given limited time, resources and skills a very powerful arrow gun can be made from PVC pipe with a ball valve, it only takes about 75-100psi air pressure and you have more power than any modern bow or crossbow. Bows/crossbows are faster to reload but most people will not have the skills or the time and materials to build a really good one that is powerful and holds up.
Don't knock pliers for crimping. I have to use a modified wire crimper/stripper to put a crimp on the 56-56ammo that I reload for my original M1860 Spencer carbine since it shoots a heeled. 54cal bullet using cut down 50-70 or 50-90 brass. This not a 56-50 which can be crimped with a crimp die.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

If I came across a lathe that would be great, but lets assume there's no power to run it.

I came up with another great idea today. Take a fire formed .357 magnum case and cut the base off. What you've got is a small brass mould that you can pour lead into.

For sizing, assuming you can find an instrument to measure, I'd use two flat pieces of metal. Preferably somethings heavy like cast iron or steel. The idea being to roll it like if you were to make silly putty in your hands into a noodle. You'd make your hands flat and rub them back and fourth.

With soft lead I think it could be sized in this way. As you roll it between the metal plates it would get slightly thinner and slightly longer.

After that just cut them into sections like a tootsie roll load and shoot.

It sounds so plausible that I may just try it.

[Avery Arms]

You don't *need* power to run a lathe you can turn the headstock with your hands and slowly make a cut.

Lead poured into an empty case neck I don't see working well as it will tend to be stuck in there and difficult to remove without damaging the bullet or casing.

If I absolutely could not fabricate a push-through sizer I would drop the cylinder out of the gun and drive the bullets directly through the throats with lots of grease, a brass rod and a soft lead/plastic hammer. You would have to use great care to support the cylinder and not damage the front face or the rear timing star but it would work and you would not need a micrometer.

For that matter it is possible to cast your bullets directly inside the throats and then drive them out, I haven't done it but in theory it should work if you were able to carefully measure the molten lead (scoop made from .32 or .380 casing) and maintain the cylinder at the proper heat, it would have to be around 300-350F but not much hotter otherwise you would risk drawing the temper out of it.

Using a cylinder this way would be a *last* resort and would require great care, if you did it wrong you could destroy the cylinder fairly easily. Also it would have to be a sturdy high quality modern steel cylinder not something made 100 years ago with mild or case hardened steel or some other metal.

[longbow]

Super Sneaky Steve:

Yes, you try it. If it worked then don't you think our ancestors would have done that?

They cast lead into moulds because that's what worked and worked best. Yes, there were soapstone moulds and other things much less accurate and sophisticated than what we use now but they also had smoothbore guns they were shooting those projectiles in. It is not hard to cast swan shot (look it up) or reasonable round balls in a fairly crudely made mould. However, I will challenge you to roll lead "noodles" cut them up and get a semi auto to feed and shoot them accurately enough to be useful and yes, there is little point in making ammunition that just goes "bang" but you can't hit anything past 15 or 20 yards.

Some of my first small bore cast boolit shooting was with a Mauser converted from 7mm to 7.62 x 51. I was using a modern made Lyman boolit mould 31141 which is a gas check mould but I didn't have gas checks. I loaded with IMR3031 from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook using mild load data and I couldn't hit a man sized object dependably at 25 yards. There was enough gas cutting and blowby that the boolits were keyholing and I am not kidding, I couldn't hit much but air. Add a gas check and all that changed rather dramatically.

Go try your noodles because you did say this was a mental exercise so you just might want to test out a few of the ideas so just in case this becomes reality you are not scrambling because you "thought it might work".

Read some history and learn what has been done and what worked, and what didn't work. Don't repeat mistakes or try bad ideas in an emergency situation. Test, prove, record and go with what works.

I better get outa here.

Longbow