WC852 slow or is it?

[lar45]

I propose a theory about WC852. I think that it is a faster burning powder but has less energy per grain than canister grade powders we are trying to compare it to.
I have lot# BAJ 47288
I've loaded some in my 30-06 with Rem 165 cl. With standard CCI 200 primers I got:
58gns 2470fps
60gns 2500fps
The velocities seemed to be all over the place, so I switched to a Fed 215 primer.
60gns 2706fps
61gns 2740fps , but I started getting bright marks on the case head and the primers started to crater.

I was loading RL22 and at 60gns got 2770fps with accuracy under 1" at 100yds. The WC852 61gn load shot under 1" also, but the pressure signs on the cases showed it was way high.

I see it as being listed close to H380 or H414 and also IMR 4350.

Quickload shows the 60gns of RL22 to be around 45,000 psi, so by conventional wisdom, if I use one more grain of WC852 to get about the same velocity then the pressure should be slower.

So I guess the question is, what pressure were the loads at to get bright marks on the case head and start to crater the primer?? 70ksi?

Looking through quickload, which I know is just a guess, useing H110 then 42gns shows 2743fps @ 68ksi
and H4227 41gns shows 2742fps @ 67ksi
So with this then I would use H4227 data for velocity and pressure and multipy the charge by 1.5 to get the appropriate dose of WC852.

Thoughts?

[Buckshot]

.........I'll have to check what it is I have on hand now. I've had 2 lots since the early 90's. If you check Castpics Load Data for stuff I've entered you'll see I've listed 47287 & 47288. At this moment (I'm at work so can't check) what I have on hand pretty well parallels 4831 charge for charge.

It has proven to be a very benign and predictable powder, generally giving about 50 fps/grain increase. Also using it under Dacron or Grex doesn't seen to matter to it much.

..............Buckshot

[John F. Lang]

I second Buckshot on his comments about WC852. The lot numbers he lists look very familuar to me and are probably the same. I have had my powder for a while also.
Be aware that Bartlett now lists a WC852f which is a faster lot of powder!
If you have one of those lot#'s the data may be closer to H380 data than 4831 or 4350.
My 7MM Mag shoots 68 gr of WC852 into three shot groups I can cover with the head of the case! It scares me sometimes. No pressure signs and its clocking 2908 trip after trip to the range. All with the 162gr. Hornady.
I haven't used it for cast for obvious reasons.
It hasn't been good for much but Coues deer in AZ, Mule deer in NM, Elk, Oryx,coyotes,rabbits.......
WC852 is a good powder.
John

[swheeler]

Lar; I've been out of this number for several years now, but the lot I had was BAJ47287 and it was the same powder as some H450 I had left over from the 80's- tit for tat. 785 Win by different names, different lot speeds.
Scooter

[Trailblazer]

I have lot 47288. In one cartridge, 54 grs. did 2764 fps and 54 grs. H4831 did 2860 fps. 53 grs. H450 did 2909 fps. In this case WC 852 was "slower" than H4831 or H450.

What is interesting is that in the 356 Win my lot of WC852 gave more velocity than a comparable charge of H414. H414 is basically W760 and is normally a faster powder than WC852. These were full case charges and both powders are to slow to get max velocities in the 356. So there is apparently some difference in ignition characteristics between WC852 and H414 and perhaps also RL22?

[felix]

Good analysis, Trailblazer! Bore size makes a tremendous difference in ignition, and this becomes readily apparent as the generic powder speed goes down. How the slower powders become slow (kernal size, deterrents, base molecular structure, etc.) has to be taken into account, and explains the ignition variations for the most part. The amount of raw energy between these slower ones probably is close to being the same (per grain). ... felix

[lar45]

Are you guys useing standard rifle primers?
Maybe it was the switch to the Fed 215 that gave me pressure signs?
Looks like it should be good in the 25-06 then.
Thanks.

[waksupi]

I shot some WC 852 this morning, 48.5 gr., in my .358 Win, behind the Bator 225 (237) gr. bullet, standard primers. Group size at a hundred was right at 5/8". I believe the velocity is around 1985 fps., if I recall correctly from previous shooting.

[BD]

I did a lot of calibration work using Jeff Bartletts lot of "slow" WC852 in the 6.5 x 55 behind 140 grain speers. My lot fell right between the 4831s for velocity but at slightly higher pressure. Somewhere I have pressure data for that powder lot from Stan's Oehler strain gage setup. Where it really shined was behind the 120 grain nosler BTs; same velocity and pressure as H4831 with lower SDs and much better accuracy. I have a target from that work up hanging over my loading bench. 3 shots at 100 yards into .289". I never matched that again but could produce 1/2" groups pretty regular from the bench. Not too shabby for an old cut down Karlina. I think I have enough of it to last the rest of my days if I save it for the serious condom loads. BD

[Buckshot]

............I checked yesterday morning when I got home and it's Lot #47288 and my date sticker says 1-94. I have 6 more pounds and then it's gone (tears). This is the powder I used in my 375-06 IP to get a 352gr cast FN to 2025 fps and 2"/3rnds at 100 yards. There was room for a bit more, but I'd run out of the slugs.

I've never used mag primers with it AFAIK.

...............Buckshot

[Trailblazer]

Lar, I use Winchester large rifle primers. Mainly because that is what I can currently get the cheapest. I also like to use them with ball powders because Deputy Al posted one time that Winchester primers have a special compound to help ignite ball powders. I don't know if that is a significant factor or not. Certainly a possibility.

[NuJudge]

I was shooting it in the 7.5x55 with 165 grain bulk Remington bullets, and it shot tiny little groups. With that load I shot the only 99 offhand I've ever fired in NRA High Power. Other than primers being flat, no pressure signs, no pierced primers in several hundred rounds fired.

Christopher Dingell
Trenton, Michigan

[lar45]

I've been shooting the Rem 165 corelokts and get very good accuracy with them. I bought mine in a box of 1000 from Midway. In my son's 06 they will go under .5" and will do under 1" in everything else we have shot them in. They seem to take Elk down without any problems also. I like em.

[Buckshot]

...........I forget which magazine it was in, but several years a go a VERY extensive test was done of the most common expanding type hunting bullets was published.

Across the top of the page was the velocity and down the left side was the bullet, and there were a bunch. Each was fired into a medium at various striking velocities. Lower velocities were accomplished by loading down instead of actually shooting at 300 or 400 yards. Some might say that is invalid as the rotational speed (it's RPM's) decreases much more slowly then it's FPS forward motion.

However, there bullets displayed differences in expansion that were meaningfull, regardless the fine points of the rotational velocity question. I'm sure many found it very interesting that the humble old Remington Core-Lokt put in a dazzeling performance, through it's entire velocity range. Compared to slugs that cost a couple bucks a piece it did as well, or in some cases better.

A now departed friend who was the rangemaster for 16 years where I shoot made the comment to my pointing out the Core-Lokt's performance as, "They're a fine bullet if your rifle will shoot them." I suppose you could say that about any bullet's performance, but I know what he meant. You can pretty much garantee that a Sierra is going to shoot well, in ANY capable rifle. But knowing him, he'd had some capable rifles which didn't shoot the Core-Lokt well.

My Garand likes the 165 grainers!

............Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Trailblazer--

The source of the info regarding Winchester primers being a good match for the ball powders was C.E. Harris in "The American Rifleman", circa 1985. His comments were specific to WW-748 and the 223 and 308 calibers, IIRC. He cited an aluminum oxide primer fuel component that enhanced ball powder performance.

[Trailblazer]

Deputy Al, Did he imply it applied to all of Winchester's ball powders?

I don't know if I have the 1985 issues. There are some gaps in my collection. I wish AR would run articles like that today!

[lar45]

I tried some more WC852 in the 06' with regular primers.
I loaded up to 63gns with the 165 Rem core lokt and got 2709fps. Quickload predicted 2759fps useing H4831SC. Useing RL22 and loading to 2730fps gave the tightest groups and when the WC852 got to 63gns, the groups shrank down to just under an inch as well. I'll have to shoot some when it gets way cold and then in the summer as well to see what it acts like, but with 8 lbs of it, I might as well burn it as the standard 06 load instead of RL22.
I sure like those rem core lokts. I picked mine up in a box of 1000 from Midway several years ago.

I think I'd like to pick up a jug of WC844 to try. What does this burn close to? BLC2?

[StarMetal]

lar45

844 is almost identical to H335

Joe

[rickt300]

I have an 8 pound jug of WC852 and it's burning rate seems to parrallel H380/H414. Max load with the 60 grain bullets in my 22-250 is 39 grains, 49 grains under a 165 grain corelokt in my 308 and 51 grains under a 150 grain Hornady spire point in my 270. The jug has no lot number it just says "use H380 data". I get very fine accuracy out of this powder and use CCI 250 primers with all ball powders.

[felix]

WC846 is more like BLC2. However, you can't tell the difference for the most part in the majority of 40-55 grainer cases. Always assume lot differences in these powders at around 3 grains. Of the lots tried here, 846 is 2 grains slower than 844 in a 40 grain case, 35 remington. Buy the cheaper one and you'd be OK. ... felix

[Buckshot]

...........Lar45, using WC852 (47288) I found it sensitive to temperture. Shooting the 375-06 once. I shot some when I first got to the range so the ammo was still at overnight type temps. The same loads later that afternoon with temps 25 degrees higher then that morning produced a VERY noticeable increase in pressure.

............Buckshot

[Scota4570]

Mine loads like W-760.