how fast is enough?

[tking308]

I'm planning on hunting this fall with my SBH hunter, I'm going to use the lee 430-310 boolit. While I have no problem with full power loads, what would be a minimum velocity? Of course shot placement is everything so let's say perfect broadside double lung shot. Midwest whitetails. I want a complete pass through preferably without much of a tracking job :) 1100fps, 1000, less?

[Lefty Red]

Same bullet I'm going to use, if my RCBS or LYMAN "Keith" bullets don't win me over. I'm looking at 1000-1100 fps on the top end , fo me and my hunting. I just don't see the need for the abuse of anything more. Truefully, I think anything over 900 fps to be good. But then I would limit my shots to under 100 yards too.

Jerry

[Blammer]

around 1100 would be good, I'd go with whatever your best accuracy you can shoot well would be.

[dubber123]

I've never gotten great accuracy in the .44 with heavy for caliber boolits at slow speeds. It will be up to you to test, but I would expect much better 50 yard and beyond accuracy with 1,100 fps. plus loads than any much below that.

[Cowboy_Dan]

With the .44 Mag I say go for accuracy. As long as the loads aren't anemic, they will work within reasonable range. Full disclosure, I am using a max book load of 800x under a 250 gr boolit out of a Marlin 1894 this fall, but I would have gone with the start load if that was where the accuracy was.

[taco650]

tking308,

I had accuracy issues with the boolit you mention until I took the advice of 44man which was to drive it at least 1100 fps. I tried running it slower but got 7-8" groups at 25yds. Getting it up over 1000 cut them in half or better. Haven't played with it more due to lack of time. The reasoning he gave, if I remember correctly, was that a boolit that big needs more speed to get it spinning fast enough to fly accurately. Don't quote me on that & maybe others can expand (or correct) my explanation.

[44man]

The Lee will be best at 1300 fps, mine are 1316 fps or a tad more. I don't care what you do, you can't make a heavy boolit shoot slower. The Lee will do 1" at 50 shot right.
I made all the crazy tests and this is average for a slower boolit.146333
These are the touted 1100 fps loads with Unique at 50, do you think you can hit a deer?
21.5 gr of 296 and a standard Fed 150 primer. No more, no less.
1100 fps will kill but maybe a slingshot will beat your groups.
Fool with 900 fps and you need a 6'X6' backstop.
I am not kidding you in any way, it does NOT work.
Do NOT ignore the primer either. 59 years with the .44 is not from a book.

[44man]

Try this, 3 shots off hand at 100, 3/4" and 3 shots Creedmore at 200 yards, 1-5/16", heavy boolit shot correct.146336146337 SBH with my 330 gr boolit using 21 gr of 296 and the fed 150 primer.
Take the great Lee 310 where it lives.
My friends SBH Hunter does 1/2" at 50 all day. SUPER gun.

[sixshot]

For starters don't even worry about velocity, just encrease your powder charge until you find a load that is shooting consistently accurate for you, then bump it up & see if the accuracy stays or starts to drop off or if it starts to get uncomfortable for you. If any one those things happen stop & go back to your base load, the one that was shooting best for you & see how fast it was going. If you are 900 fps or more with heavy bullets you will always kill deer with the 44 maggie, because thats what kills deer.....accuracy! If you can make the higher velocity work in your favor thats a good thing but if the recoil is robbing you of accuracy which would you rather sacrifice? Heavy 44 slugs that are accurate will go through deer like a knife through butter. As always you want accuracy, penetration & an exit & velocity is a distant fourth.

Dick

[stubert]

I use that bullet in a Red hawk, at about 1200, Super accurate. Don't worry about penetration, It will go end to end on a whitetail.

[quilbilly]

My rule of thumb for deer with a 265 gr 429 cal swc boolit in my muzzleloader is 850 fps at the point of impact. It is like hitting them with a sledge hammer. I use the same boolit for elk and the minimum is is 300 fps faster and I have watched the impact (before the smoke filled the horizon) lift a cow elk completely off the ground with feet rotating skyward. Judge the maximum range accordingly.

[tking308]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm definitely going to develop the load based in accuracy, just didn't want to go too slow. Sounds like that won't be an issue.

[Lefty Red]

Just got back the range where I tried out my casted Lee 430-310 bullets. These were AC range lead, ugly wrinkled things that most wouldn't take on a date with a fat girl while riding a moped. But I did. :)
I TLed them with White Label 45/45/10, then sized to .430", then dipped lubed them in the same 45/45/10. I didn't have gas checks when I loaded, so they are bare bottomed!

I loaded them with IMR4227, and I got very good groups at both 50 and 100 yards! Lyman says I should have gotten 1092ish fps out of my 7.5" Redhawk and I'm sure a bit more out of my single shot CVA V2 Scout pistol and its 14" barrel. Its all I want out from the Scout! Recoil was stout but I managed. Thank that is what I'm going to run in the Scout. Recoil from the Redhawk was very well managed and almost pleasant. Scout had the best groups at 1.5" at 50 and 3" at 100 yards. I use a 3"x3" post it note as a target. The Scout put the 310gr bullet touching each other at 50 and in the square at 100 yards. Thought it was a fluke! I left and went to eat some lunch and came back and shot the same size groups! The Redhawk was a bit larger, around 2.5" and 5" at 50 and 100 yards. But still, its a dead deer!

Ok, I am still just amazed at this bullet. Or I should say at my ability to cast it! I have shot allot that a member sent me and they shot great. But my frosted @$$ed and wrinkled bullets was just as good. I just Lee-Mented my mold and got some gas checks, so sure it will screwed it up. :) So try this bullet. Its "bullet proof", literally! LOL

I'm going to try out 2400 and this bullet tomorrow. Lyman says I should get the same results. If so, I will still with IMR 4227. I can get it all day. But 2400 is limited.


Jerry

[44man]

Gas checks and a better lube will improve things too. I use Felix, even on TL boolits.
4227 in the .44 can be very sensitive to gun heat so it has to be shot slow and the gun kept cool.
2400 is a better powder. 296 is still best.
Leaving the check off alters the drive length so with a check, you might need another 100 fps. The good thing is the check will stop any boolit skid.

[Lefty Red]

I"m at the max loaded, published, for the 4227. I like the powder, and find it to be a better choice for cold weather hunting around here. I think the 296 is the velocity king, but I had bad results in the winter. 2400 is my favorite, but haven't seen any in 4 years around here. I'm limiting the 2 pounds I have left. But have a few rounds loaded up and excited to se what it does.

I lube the way Ranch Dog does, just dipped in Xlox from White Label. I have no issues with lubing this way. I know everyone has their own way. I'm just using what works for me. I would love to try Felix lube, but after reading allot about lube over the last few months, I just don't see the need. Everyone has a special recipe and blend. Its just what works for them.

Like I said, I'm impressed at this design. Heading out to try some more loads and will remember to get pictures today. I was too busy flirting yeasterday. :)

Jerry

[Lefty Red]

These groups are from 75 yards today. The 50 and 100 yard targets were taken. All shots were off of a sandbag rest. No cross wind.

The Scout V2 did just as good as yesterday. I'm still getting the Redhawk down. Use to a single shot of SAA roll up and the big DA wheelgun just handles recoil differently than what I'm use to. But its getting there. Would hate to leave it at home and take a pistol have its cost hunting! LOL

Pictures are of recovered 430-310 bullets. They went thru two tires! They are AC range lead that I quickly casted to get some bullets to polish my mold with and see what size they were dropping at. Like I said, some were ugly and wrinkled. They were tumbled lubed with White Label 45/45/10, then dipped in a thicker blend of Xlox, and then another light tumble after sized to .430" and gas checks installed.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/376701c16d3d081c314c9a702d03194e.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/9e91409f279434e56e626ab50b23afa8.jpg

The Scout's groups with 1cc of 2400 and 1.3cc of 2400.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/3dbe81746e8eab564a6852874d8e11bb.jpg

Redhawk's grouping with 1.3cc of 2400.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/4e69e5420ad85a2b59c0d647d11bc43a.jpg

Redhawk's group with 1.6cc of IMR 4227.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/c8dcc6c371b0e8b6a2640f593da27b4a.jpg

Scout's group with 1.6cc of IMR 4227. It's s hand full! But will be my goto if the Redhawk's groups at 100 don't tighten up.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/12/a381133b62709c66f9ce55c4ff923d89.jpg

Recovered 430-310s.

[OnHoPr]

@ Lefty Red: Them Lee dippers can shoot some decent groups sometimes can't they. That's a decent size hunk of lead. I think I will end mill off the GC section of the boolit and HP it for work in the 100 yd range for deer with the muzzleloader.

@ 44man: You've pulled a trigger once or twice haven't you?

[Lefty Red]

@ Lefty Red: Them Lee dippers can shoot some decent groups sometimes can't they. That's a decent size hunk of lead. I think I will end mill off the GC section of the boolit and HP it for work in the 100 yd range for deer with the muzzleloader. They do! Not exactly what the book says, so I check with my RCBS 1010 scale. But they throw a consistant charge if you dip and same each time. I looked into getting the GC milled out and don't think its worth the money. I actually shot them the day before without GCs and had no problems with leading or skipping. I plan on loading this bullet in a sabot for my son to use this year.

@ 44man: You've pulled a trigger once or twice haven't you? He has and I have learned allot from him.

[trapper9260]

For starters don't even worry about velocity, just encrease your powder charge until you find a load that is shooting consistently accurate for you, then bump it up & see if the accuracy stays or starts to drop off or if it starts to get uncomfortable for you. If any one those things happen stop & go back to your base load, the one that was shooting best for you & see how fast it was going. If you are 900 fps or more with heavy bullets you will always kill deer with the 44 maggie, because thats what kills deer.....accuracy! If you can make the higher velocity work in your favor thats a good thing but if the recoil is robbing you of accuracy which would you rather sacrifice? Heavy 44 slugs that are accurate will go through deer like a knife through butter. As always you want accuracy, penetration & an exit & velocity is a distant fourth.

Dick


I say the same thing as you go with what works for your gun and work for you ,for what sixshot said.

[OnHoPr]

I looked into getting the GC milled out and don't think its worth the money.


My SBH got stolen a while back, but I shoot PRBs and sabots in my front stuffer. Reading this forum for about 4 years got me to thinking about a big metplat, duh, so I thought I would give it a try. My preference in deer hunting is to sit in hardwood hills or ridges where 200 yd shots to the other side of the hill are common. That is why I prefer a boolit with more BC. But deer, especially after the first few days of season or after the first weekend tend to move into the thicker stuff where BC isn't really needed and where a little more smack might be more appropriate. So, I thought I'd give that 310 a try, but they don't work well with sabots. The only thing was is it had a GC section and GC's are $45 + shipping for a thousand. Now, I don't ever think I will shoot a 1000 310s in the MZLDR for plinking when I have RBs and the Lee 240 gr RNPB. But, I do have an end mill, drill press, and toggle clamps to make a fixture for end milling off the GC section or down to one of the grease grooves regardless of whatever weight they might be. I could probably end mill them faster than putting on GCs through the Lee sizer for the MZLDR and for just 100 yd shooting regardless if they had a + or - of 2 or 3 grains it shouldn't really matter.

[Lefty Red]

Reading this forum for about 4 years got me to thinking about a big metplat, duh, so I thought I would give it a try. My preference in deer hunting is to sit in hardwood hills or ridges where 200 yd shots to the other side of the hill are common. That is why I prefer a boolit with more BC. But deer, especially after the first few days of season or after the first weekend tend to move into the thicker stuff where BC isn't really needed and where a little more smack might be more appropriate. So, I thought I'd give that 310 a try, but they don't work well with sabots.Junior, now deceased, ran a site called The Frugal Sportsman. He had used the Lee 310gr bullet in his sabots and got good hunting accuracy out to 100 yards if I'm recalling the article correctly. This got me into the big Lee bullet. I really don't need such a beast, I think a good 240-250 grain bullet will do what I want from deer out to 150 yards but this bullet is just great in about everything I shot it in. I would try a different sabot maybe a crushed version from Harvester.

The only thing was is it had a GC section and GC's are $45 + shipping for a thousand. Now, I don't ever think I will shoot a 1000 310s in the MZLDR for plinking when I have RBs and the Lee 240 gr RNPB. But, I do have an end mill, drill press, and toggle clamps to make a fixture for end milling off the GC section or down to one of the grease grooves regardless of whatever weight they might be. I could probably end mill them faster than putting on GCs through the Lee sizer for the MZLDR and for just 100 yd shooting regardless if they had a + or - of 2 or 3 grains it shouldn't really matter. I don't think not using a gas check, especially in a sabot, would matter. I shot my 310s on Tuesday and none had gas checks and the groups were just amazing at 50 yards, in comparision to these groups that were gas checked and at 75 yards and had the same load. I did keep the velocity to around 1100 fps, according to Lyman's information. They used a 4" universal reciever and I used a 7.5" Redhawk and 14" Scout V2 single shot pistol. I know it was over the 1100 fps in the Scout. But not leading and great groups. I plan on using the 310s in a sabot in my son's Wolf and my Optima Pistol (basicly a MZLDR Scout). So don't think you have to use a gas check in a sabot or in a weapon.

Lee did something right with this design. I wish they would make their 358-RF into a 175ish grain bullet, basicly a mini 430-310-RF. Bet it would be a good bullet. And you also might want to look at Lee's 501-440-RF mold for you MZLDR. I casted it in soft lead and paper patched under the advise of Ron. Its a sledge hammer!

So sorry for the hi-jacking! I meant to show what this bullet could do, not over take the thread.

Jerry

[TCLouis]

18.5 H110 and Lee C429 310 is the most accurate combo at 50 I have ever shot out of my SRH.

About 1100 fps as I remember

[white eagle]

this group of 12 was fired from a SBH at 50 yds
the shots outside the main cluster were shots I knew were
going to be off (lost concentration)
the boolit was a 320 gr.Accurate with a g/c and 21.5 gr of W296
ww lp, velocity was around 1360 (just checked my crono records)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/100_3295_zpsuu77oz59.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kempobb/media/100_3295_zpsuu77oz59.jpg.html),

[44man]

Cutting the check section off can let you shoot slower since you reduce the drive length. PB shoots just fine but I would open the check section to keep length so I could shoot faster.
The boolit is amazing. There is something about around 1300 fps though, I don't want faster either.
I have worked the boolit up more but accuracy will drop off. Some use up to 23 gr of H110 or 296, Not as good as 21.5 gr. You do not need more velocity.
Yeah, I hate to pay for GC's too. They trap asteroids for the metal. Why does the little thing cost more then bullets?

[44man]

this group of 12 was fired from a SBH at 50 yds
the shots outside the main cluster were shots I knew were
going to be off (lost concentration)
the boolit was a 320 gr.Accurate with a g/c and 21.5 gr of W296
ww lp, velocity was around 1360 (just checked my crono records)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/100_3295_zpsuu77oz59.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kempobb/media/100_3295_zpsuu77oz59.jpg.html),
That is fine and all you need. I shoot a 330 gr most and found 21 gr is better with it. You are in the ball park. Venison on the table.