non-toxic deer hunting bullets

[tomo]

I have a plan to hunt deers and look for materials of bullets with non-toxic alloy.

In northern area called "Hokkaido", my friend said there are a lot of deer to be hunted.:D
But no lead bullets are permitted there. Of course, I can buy Barnes copper bullets
and it costs $1 per piece here!! It might be OK if I need only a few pieces and use it only to hunt.
But I need a lot of practice shootings. It means I must pay much and look for other alloy.

Eventually I think it is better way to make by myself. Lead is great material to make bullets
'cause of its high density and low melting point. But I must look for good material to be hunting bullets
instead of lead.

Please show your recommended alloy for deer hunting purpose.

[ammohead]

I don't know of any suitable materials that a home user could utilize. Tin or zinc will melt at low enough temps but both are light. Maybe some of the shot substitutes.

[milkman]

You might use lead for cheap practice shooting and copper for hunting. Looks like lead stupidity is not limited to the U.S.

[Ola]

Of course there are many other options if you do not want to use Barnes. Lead-free bullets are manufactured by Lapua, RWS, Sellier & Bellot, Fiocchi...

And some of them are not just copper: RWS Evo Green (https://rws-munition.de/en/rws-hunting-area/rws-hunting-ammunition/rws-centerfire-rifle-cartridges-for-hunters.html#!0/581/0)

[44man]

Of course there are many other options if you do not want to use Barnes. Lead-free bullets are manufactured by Lapua, RWS, Sellier & Bellot, Fiocchi...

And some of them are not just copper: RWS Evo Green (https://rws-munition.de/en/rws-hunting-area/rws-hunting-ammunition/rws-centerfire-rifle-cartridges-for-hunters.html#!0/581/0)
It is cost. When you can't shoot to sight in and practice, the bullet is useless.

[tomo]

Thanks for your comments, Folks

I heard that the reason why lead bullets prohibited in Northern area is eagles, which population decreases, eat residue of deer that hunters leave after field dressing and its meat contains debris of lead and then eagle get poisoned and die. I don't know how many eagles are killed by such reason every year but anyway the law doesn't allow us to use lead bullets.

skeettx, bow hunting is prohibited here. And we are not allowed to use the caliber size smaller than .243 for hunting.

Ola, just I wanted to practice with exactly same bullet as hunting use. But I may not need it as you wrote.
And I don't want to make bullet with gold.:| Too expensive of course. And additionally, golden bullet (or ball) means "balls" in Japan. haha

[tomo]

44man, I am sorry that I could not get your point because of my lack of English skill.

Many loads, even here can cost $2 every time you pull the trigger. We even have cast lead loads at that price. $200 for 100 shots! I will stay at a dime a shot, thank you.
I read that "One bullet can cost $2 in the US. Casting bullets also cost same. You like cast bullet that costs $0.10 per round." I am confusing because my reading doesn't make sense.:cry:
Or you mean you will cast even if it's expensive because you love casting?

I read other two posts above and get them. Thanks.

[44man]

Why can't you bow hunt? Archery is a tradition in Japan. I get more confused about that.

[Ola]

It is not too difficult to load a cheap practice bullet to hit the same spot at certain distance. What caliber are you using and what powders do you have available?

[tomo]

44man, as you know Japanese style archery is our traditional martial art. But killing power is low.
For hunting, one shot should kill a game perfectly (idealistic thought). So large bore rifles, its caliber is larger than 5.9mm, are permitted.
But small bore rifles and bow guns are prohibited for hunting. Even though you may feel strange,
our government thinks hunting with weak arms just inflicts pain on games and may not kill. It is cruelty toward animals.

[44man]

44man, I am sorry that I could not get your point because of my lack of English skill.

I read that "One bullet can cost $2 in the US. Casting bullets also cost same. You like cast bullet that costs $0.10 per round." I am confusing because my reading doesn't make sense.:cry:
Or you mean you will cast even if it's expensive because you love casting?

I read other two posts above and get them. Thanks.
Store bought loads will cost a lot. Boolits themselves are cheaper but making my own are free so just powder and primer costs me. My lead was free. Just some time to make them. I don't charge myself for my time.
You confuse store bought with home made. Yes some cast store bought loads will reach $2 a shot. That is more then factory jacketed. Even copper bullets here are average $.70 each.
I have never found a full lead boolit in a deer. It will be lead core, fast expanding bullets that will leave some behind. Lack of knowledge from those that make rules is the problem.

[Swede 45]

I'm not a alloy guru so I can not recomended a lead free alloy for casting..
But there are commercial lead free bullets for loading, others than already mentioned.
Look but Hornady and nosler..
And yes, way more expensive than regular leadcore or cast, a 100 bullets for reloading cost about the same as 20 factory cartridges .. Around here at least..
And 100 rounds of reloads would be enough to get both practice and hunting out of the money for just the cost of 20 factory cartridges..

[tomo]

Ola, I am going to use a 30-06 with Varget for deer hunting. And I have 130gr RCBS and 170gr Lyman moulds so far.

For target shooting, I will use white metal which is alloy of 6% Tin, 10% Antimony and 86% Lead, and SR4759 could be used.
But I need bullets harder enough to faster load with Varget for hunting. I am looking for suitable alloy for that purpose.
The alloy should be on conditions that
(1)not so expensive
(2)no lead
(3)hard enough
(4)good for deer hunting
(5)melt at low temp like lead
Do you have any idea?

This forum is "Hunting with CB's" and I thought someone knows about such a great alloy.
But in the fact, it's just a "dream" and no such an alloy exists, I will use BARNES and practice some (but not much because it's expensive).

[tomo]

44man, as you know, I was confused but now I get your point. I agree that government should make decision along with scientific view points.

[tomo]

NavyVet1959, I can't get gun permission with Arisaka now a day even it is good gun.
In Japan, there are a strange rule. If that type of gun once employed in military, it won't be permitted for hunting or shooting purpose forever.
I don't know why. Some old shooter have it because they licensed before the rule was approved.

[tomo]

Swede 45, Factory ammo costs 5 times as hand loading one? it's coincidence! In Japan, that ratio is same.
but price must be different. Here I pay $5 a round for 30-06 factory ammo. Powder, primer and bullet costs $1/round. If I made casting bullet, price becomes almost half.

Factory bullets from Sierra are popular here. I think its share is 70%. And 20% for Nosler. 10% for Barnes and other makers.
percentage might change along with gun shops but I can say that Sierra must be the largest here.

[MBTcustom]

I doubt you will find anything suitable. If lead is not an option, then copper is the very next choice.

If you have Iron molds, you could try a tin/zink alloy of maybe 70/30? Just melt the tin first and bring it up to temperature till the zink marries it. Should give you a casting temperature of 650 degrees.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how much an alloy like this would shrink, nor how it would work on deer, and the high concentration of tin would make it pricey.

If I were in your situation, I would buy a small lathe and learn to turn my own bullets.

[popper]

Are the deer there very big? I guess you can only hunt with the copper solids. I'd cut your white metal with equal or more pure lead, add some shot for As and possibly Cu, maybe heat treat. Should get a good HV load that has accuracy for practice. Also look at the filller/dacron thread. Of course you will need GC for those moulds. What velocity/range are you thinking of hunting?
Factory 06 is ~ $1.50 each here, bullets are ~ $35/100 for good hunting types.
edit: Roto test data on the Bi boolits wasn't very good.

[RoyEllis]

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/leadfreebulletalloy.htm only thing I can find that MIGHT come close to what you want Tomo, but I'd very strongly suggest expansion testing of this alloy before hunting with it as I'd presume it may fracture instead of deform & expand. However it may provide a suitable practice boolit casting alloy, then switch to Barnes for the hunt.

[condor257]

Rotto metals has a lead free alloy I use it in my .257 cal air rifle. Its sure not cheap per pound but if you recover the rounds from practice you can re-melt and reuse your practice bullets.

[white eagle]

tomo
I believe the problem you will run into with a harder alloy is expansion
or lack of it
a harder alloy,say zink,will act like a full metal jacketed bullet and make a
poor hunting bullet
Barnes has outstanding bullets as you already know for the lead free crowd
I wouldn't hesitate to use their X bullet or and of their polymer tipped bullets
how big are your deer are they as big as a whitetail deer?

[Ola]

Just a thought: how about replacing the lead in traditional jacketed hunting bullet?

As we all know, getting the lead out is pretty easy: Heat the bullet and the lead melts out. Then pour f.e. Sn inside the jacket.. If the jacket is still hot, the SN might even bond with it.

That is the only lead-free do-it-yourself solution I can think of that actually just MIGHT work..

Has anyone tried this?

[castalott]

Welcome to this forum, tomo. If I may ask, how far do you plan to shoot when hunting? How big are these animals and how difficult are they to kill? ( A rifle load that would work at 50 meters is a lot different from one that must work at 400 meters.)

I ask these questions to understand your requirements exactly. I also wish you "Good Luck" on your project.

Dale

[NavyVet1959]

The current market spot price for tin is a bit less than $7 per pound. Assuming a 180 gr bullet, that means that each bullet would cost $0.18 or $3.60 per 20. I'm not sure where you can buy tin at the spot price though. Rotometals seems to charge twice (or so) of the spot price.

[NavyVet1959]

Sika deer, perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sika_deer

Looks to be about the size of the small whitetail deer we have around here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaBnaIbEdmA

[bhn22]

Try experimenting with lead-free pewter, and/or lead-free solder for your casting. Pewter runs harder than linotype for the most part, so you would want to test your resulting bullets carefully to make sure they're not brittle. Lead free solder comes in different flavors, copper, silver, and antimony "enriched" are the most common. you'd need to experiment to see which would work better for your purposes. You should expect bullets cast from any of these alloys to be lighter in weight than the moulds advertised weights show.

[dh2]

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/leadfreebulletalloy.htm
it meets the no lead law for Cal. I guess it would there too??

[castalott]

Just a few quick thoughts....

Cabelas sells in the USA a Hornady bullet it claims to work in field tests.
It is here...http://www.nosler.com/ballistic-tip-lead-free-bullet/

They claim 30 inches of ballistic gel penetration and expansion of 50%. Rifling twists are important to all light weight bullets so some knowledge would be useful. Price is $36 per 50 bullets.

Here is a website dedicated to hunting with lead free bullets...

http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/

wow..the video I watched was good...

Dale

[tomo]

Thank you for a lot of comments! I squeal with delight. Carefully I read all of your comments.
It takes a hour to read with a dictionary. But I am happy because it is not English homework but mails to me!

According to comments from you all skilled bullet caster, I think I should use copper bullets like Barnes instead of cast one by myself at this time.
Of course, I do not give up to look for good alloy including non-lead alloy from rotometals. I am going to keep studying. This is my result so far.

Anyway,
Deers in northern area called "Hokkaido" is different from the one in main land "Honshu". We call deers in north "Ezo Sika".
It is much larger than one in south, Sika. I heard some large male Ezo Sika weigh over 200kg.
And hunting distance,normally, will be 100m-300m. Of course, it depends.

[quilbilly]

When I was there (Hokkaido) in the 70's there certainly were a lot of deer and you were allowed to use standard (Olympic style recurve) archery equipment. I was shooting the archery tournament circuit around Tokyo then and provided hunting arrowheads to some of my Japanese friends who went up there since it was hard to find hunting arrowheads in Japan. I even taught them sharpening techniques for steel broad heads of the day. Your shika are a beautiful deer and Hokkaido is a beautiful place.

[Bigslug]

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/leadfreebulletalloy.htm
it meets the no lead law for Cal. I guess it would there too??

I am in the early stages of experimenting with this stuff. In milk jugs, it tends to shatter, even if you raise the tin content to 50%, which really reduces the weight of the projectile. Others may find something to add to the bismuth/tin mix to make it more malleble, but I'm not ready to try hunting with it yet.

Tomo, I have killed two deer in 2012 and 2014 with the Barnes TTSX bullet, both were on the ground in seconds and only moved about five and ten yards respectively. The Barnes is an expensive bullet to practice with, but for hunting, their cost is negligible compared to the rest of the preparation. Shoot enough of them to verify zero and learn the trajectory and practice with something cheaper.

[Digital Dan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness

Bismuth is somewhat harder than lead, but melts at around 540* F. It may alloy with tin and present a tougher alloy suitable for a rifle, but that is conjecture on my part. It's density is in the range of 85% of lead.

[tomo]

quilbilly, I didn't know that hunting with archery was allowed in 70's. But I could not try that because I was a baby at that time.[smilie=l:
Number of Ezo sika (sika in Hokkaido) is extremely increasing. I think one of the best place in the world to hunt deer must be Hokkaido.

[tomo]

Bigslug, The only copper bullets I have is TTSX. I am going to hunt with it and shoot paper targets with my cast bullets.

[Bigslug]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness

Bismuth is somewhat harder than lead, but melts at around 540* F. It may alloy with tin and present a tougher alloy suitable for a rifle, but that is conjecture on my part. It's density is in the range of 85% of lead.

More tin did better, but it still wasn't anything I'd want to smack a deer with - at least in the .30-30 we did our testing with. Going to revisit it with larger diameter options just to see if sheer size helps with bullet strength. Accuracy has been no great shakes either. Stripping the wheel down to the re-invention stage will probably be required here.

[GLynn41]

Glad to have you on the board Tomo-- did not know Japan allowed any kind of hunting-- good to hear -- if it were me in your place i would buy 125-150 gr Sierra and be done with it -- I normally use jacket'd still in my rifles but have taken deer with my .358 win and a Saeco 245 gr -- good hunting to you and again glad to have you on the board

[MBTcustom]

I think one of the best place in the world to hunt deer must be Hokkaido.

You need to come visit me and we'll hunt south Arkansas.

[runfiverun]

this is where some exploration into the shotgun world might pay off for you.
Bismuth and Tin has been used there quite successfully.
heavy shot would be worth looking into.
TINT [tin, iron, nickel, tungsten] could be viable for you too.
there are also others out there like tungsten matrix that could work or maybe even ceramic stuff is useable.

years ago straight zinc alloy was used in some hunting bullets but they were quite short range affairs and relied on very high velocity, and a flat nose to work [much like steel shot does]

the government is jerking you around on the eagle thing, if it were that big of a deal they would make you haul your gut pile off.
they are just restricting your use of a fire-arm through the poverty method.

if you try making your own copper bullets you'll need to add Zinc [cartridge brass already has zinc in it]
unfortunately you burn much of the zinc out of the brass before it melts.

[lobowolf761]

I used the Hornady 150grn GMX in 30 cal last deer season with very good success. They are accurate and a bit cheaper than Barnes. These are lead free gilding metal bullets with a ballistic tip. I shoot them out of my .308s and my 7.5 x55 Swiss. It was one shot one kill for each of the two deer I used them on.

[lobowolf761]

These should work well in your 30-06 Tomo. Hornady also has this bullet at 165grn also.

[firefly1957]

Tomo the only way i could see you getting a lead free expanding bullet would be though swaging them and dies and presses to do that are very expensive. Your next best choice would be to literally glue a composite of heavy pieces of something like bismuth together in a thin jacket* and i can not see getting consistency to shoot accurately. The big problem is you are going after a big deer and i did not see what range you need to shoot at either. You need a tough bullet possibility using tin in a large caliber like 45-70 with a flat tipped bullet letting a good solid hit do the job without expansion.
. Good luck with your search i do think the Barnes bullets may for now be your safest bet .
* this would not expand it would release many pieces at impact like a shotgun at very close range while effective you need large parts to be effective.

[MUSTANG]

Tomo:

Welcome too the board. I have nothing to add to the suggestions on lead alternatives, but remember Hokkaido fondly. I had the privilege of being an "USMC Exchange Officer" with the Japanese Self Defense force for three weeks at the Northern end of the island in the mid 1980's. The hospitality afforded by the JSDF and the residents of Hokkaido I met was superb. I have many cherished memories of that three weeks training with the JSDF. Many innovative training aides were used by the JSDF during that time, reminds me of the United States Marine Corps and it's affinity for making do with little funding.

If the vegetation remains the same in Hokkaido, a 150 yard shot would be considered long range (excluding farming areas). For this reason, bullet drop should not be a major consideration for lead replacement loads, or "Green" commercial rounds.

[tomo]

Thanks for welcoming me, GLynn41
We can hunt with valid hunting license here. To get license, it is needed to pass an exam.
And they are done in Japanese language.

Only non-lead bullet local gun shop has was Barnes. I want to try Sierra too if he carry.

[tomo]

goodsteel,
I saw AGFC.com. It is great that I can hunt if I buy a license in Arkansas.

[tomo]

runfiverun,
Lead shot is permitted even though bullet with lead is prohibited in the northern island in Japan.
But I should check about non-toxic shot to study.
I have no furnace to melt copper so far but I will remember your comment about Zinc when I do it.

[tomo]

lobowolf761, I have never seen Hornady's at local gun shop. But I will ask about it them and try if possible.

[tomo]

firefly1957, I shoot deer which range would be 50m to 300m.

It seems difficult for me to make good non-lead hunting bullet with my skill and instruments.

I am going to use Barnes for deer hunting this season. But I keep to research.

[tomo]

Hello, MUSTANG

I am happy to know you've had nice days in Hokkaido. And I have found a lot of serviceperson and veterans here.
Thank you for many aides. Especially, your Armed Forces, including Marine Corps of course,
helped the afflicted at 311 Tsunami disaster four years ago. And all people there are given encouragements.

Anyway, I won't have time to get there at the beginning of hunting season because of my work.
I will be off duty and available to hunt deer there in snowy season.

[tomo]

I might need to explain our circumstances even it doesn't corresponds to non-toxic blah-blah.

In the nature of things, old hunters have got their first license decades ago.
At that time, exam was not too hard. In Japan, to have hunting rifle needs more than 10 years continuous experience as a shotgun hunter.
Such old hunters always have rifles, not only shotgun.

Recently, new law obligates possessor must have not only written but shooting exam at renewal which is done every three years.
shooting exam of shotgun is easy. just shoot more than only 2 or 3 clays of 25 is required. But rifle shooting exam, it is difficult for old hunter.
That exam requires score more than 40 point with 20 kneeling shots at 50m to pass using their own rifle. outer circle of 1 point is about 7" diameter.
Old hunter tends to own rifles without scope if he hunt wild boar, most major game here. To archive 40 point is very difficult with such a rifle.
That's why a lot of old hunters gave up their license renewal.

Such hard regulation was terminated this year finally. Now only a few point is enough to pass if examinee don't make unsafe action while the exam.
But people who gave up their rifle already along with that hard exam, can not get rifle license back immediately.
Because once he gave up renewal, 10 continuous year experience, once more, needs to get rifle again.

[Whiterabbit]

Hello tomo-san,

your best bet is to stick with the barnes bullet. They are fine bullets. They cost about $1 a piece here too. Shoot near max loadings and you'll find your accuracy node faster. That should save you on some of your load development. That should get your load nailed down with 100 rounds or less. Add another 100 for practice, and you will be good to go in the field regardless of what you practice with.

I'm stuck shooting copper as well for hunting. Iprefer the TTSX. They are more accurate for me than the E-tip, and the terminal performance has been verified.

The real trick is getting a good lead-free load for pistol hunting. And the real expense is finding an accurate lead free shotgun slug. It helps to get lucky when searching for an accurate slug.

[tomo]

Thanks, Whiterabbit

In the fact, only I can do is using Barnes TTSX, if non-lead bullets are needed, so far.
If they carry Nosler, I might try one next when my stock of Barnes runs out.
One of my friend said e-tip was good. I will try to compare.

Anyway, I am happy to know my local gun shop sells Barnes at the price is not so expensive.
I did't know it was almost same price as it in the states.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks for your comments, Folks

I heard that the reason why lead bullets prohibited in Northern area is eagles, which population decreases, eat residue of deer that hunters leave after field dressing and its meat contains debris of lead and then eagle get poisoned and die. I don't know how many eagles are killed by such reason every year but anyway the law doesn't allow us to use lead bullets.

skeettx, bow hunting is prohibited here. And we are not allowed to use the caliber size smaller than .243 for hunting.

Ola, just I wanted to practice with exactly same bullet as hunting use. But I may not need it as you wrote.
And I don't want to make bullet with gold.:| Too expensive of course. And additionally, golden bullet (or ball) means "balls" in Japan. haha

That is exactly the same situation with the ban on lead in the range of the Californian condor. It seems a legitimate enough argument. Many a person does find a cast lead bullet in a deer, sometimes trapped against the skin on the far side, and even a jacketed bullet is liable to leave a snowflake effect of tiny lead fragments on an X-ray.

Swallowing particles or lead shot doesn't normally do a person or other predator any harm. They pass through the system in the course of nature. Neither, apparently, do lead bullets embedded in your person, unless they are in joints, where the lubricating sinovial fluid can leach it into your system. Col. La Garde successfully removed minie balls from ancient but sometimes untroubled Civil War veterans in the twentieth century, when X-rays became available. But birds have gizzards, in which stones and other solid objects are liable to be held and abraded for long periods.

In this situation I think I would go for a .303 or .375, with which I would use a lathe with a collet for really precise holding of standard diameter copper rod, and turn solid-point practice bullets of the same weight as the expensive ones.

[NavyVet1959]

That exam requires score more than 40 point with 20 kneeling shots at 50m to pass using their own rifle. outer circle of 1 point is about 7" diameter.

For many of us old farts, the *kneeling* part would be the difficult part. My old joints don't like that action anymore. :(

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Only a very specific height of undergrowth can make the kneeling position better than sitting with both elbows and knees, and I am still up to that.

[OnHoPr]

This post is edited because all my other post were deleted, must of rubbed someone the wrong way with my opinion or their concepts.

[tomo]

I am sorry that some facts was not told about shooting test.
At that time there were hard regulation, examinee could take "one" from 3 positions, kneeling, prone and standing.
If kneeling position was taken, examinee must get 40 point or more. 25 for standing and 60 for prone. When I took that test, examiner recommended
kneeling if I had no idea and I did so.

But now government remembers that the safety is everything. Score is so much less important than safety.
That's why they drop score requirement at shooting test this year and after.

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks, Whiterabbit
.....
Anyway, I am happy to know my local gun shop sells Barnes at the price is not so expensive.
I did't know it was almost same price as it in the states.

Only gun the E-tip was more accurate in was the 338 lapua. Otherwise, the TTSX is my solid of choice. Beat out non expanding solids too.

As for price, my 7mm solids end up being about $40 for 50 pcs locally here. My 45 cals TTSX end up being $24 to $30 for fifteen. That makes load development really hard.

[bobob]

Japan, like Australia and most other countries are up s'creek. Americans have more than 300,000,000 firearms; lead, powder, primers, brass, reloading tools and liberty. Liberty to assure that anybody who tries to take those liberty protectors are in for a bad day.

Like Yamamoto said, "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Doc Burgess, boolit's friend.
A boolit - mostly lead, antimony and tin

[tomo]

There were one million legal guns 40 years ago in Japan but are only two hundred thousands now.
I have found only one copper bullet made in Japan but it is four times as expensive as Barnes.

[Whiterabbit]

And I am sure that Japanese bullet is great, but frankly, the Barnes bullet works, and well.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=54457&d=1353825020

[Ballistics in Scotland]

And all Japan for it is to be one of those countries where people are hardly ever killed in hunting accidents or by criminals. That doesn't seem a negligible consideration.

[tomo]

Whiterabbit,
I might need to support only one domestic company that make copper bullets, but I don't know their product is better or not even it looks nice.
I think US companies do great because they have big market and experience. They provide good bullets and at affordable price.
146331


Ballistics in Scotland,
It can be the fact that few guns makes few victims. But I think the gun is laid under American spirit.

[lobowolf761]

lobowolf761, I have never seen Hornady's at local gun shop. But I will ask about it them and try if possible.
The Hornady GMX bullets are a bit pricey but are lead free and have worked very well for me in .243 and .308. I recently purchased some in .323 to work up a load for my 8mm mauser for use as a hunting load. Good luck and great hunting.

[jhalcott]

Tomo, I am in the habit of testing bullets BEFORE I hunt with them. A 2 foot stack of wet newsprint set out at the range you expect to shoot game will tell you a lot about its performance. Its NOT perfect but does give an idea how well the bullet expands(or does not!). It also shows an approximate depth of penetration you will get.

[Whiterabbit]

If I see one more post about societal gun culture, I'm unsubscribing, I hope others do too. I thought this was supposed to be a thread about hunting and shooting lead free bullets.

[Ronnie Dale]

I find this thread fascinating.

I love reading about hunting cultures abroad and up till I saw this post I didn't even realize Japan had one.

Thank you for posting Tomo

[tomo]

lobowolf761, I have only a few options for non-lead bullets here. But I will try Hornady and Nosler someday if possible.

[tomo]

A 2 foot stack of wet newsprint set out at the range you expect to shoot game will tell you a lot about its performance.

Thanks for great idea. I want to check terminal behavior of copper bullets but every shooting ranges here don't permit such a target.
Just a paper target on thin wood board is available.

[Whiterabbit]

lobowolf761, I have only a few options for non-lead bullets here. But I will try Hornady and Nosler someday if possible.

Does ITAR or some such prevent you from mail ordering bullets, particularly from the US? If so, can your dealer mail order from the US for a nominal fee?

What about hand carry? If you happened to be on a plane on a business trip, would that be a no-no?

[tomo]

I love reading about hunting cultures abroad and up till I saw this post I didn't even realize Japan had one.

Thanks for a comment, Ronnie
I do like to see foreign hunting culture too. But it might need different thread.
In Japan, gun-related market is too small and we have only a few choices.
I am happy if I could find nice material for non-toxic bullet casting.

[NavyVet1959]

If I lived in some sort of restrictive environment like that, I suspect that I would be tempted to just buy one of those mini lathes and make my own bullets from copper rods.

[Whiterabbit]

The problem with buying non lead that is castable, is that by the time you get an alloy that is suitably dense, you are at 2000 yen a pound anyways. So the economy is not much better than buying the expanding copper bullets. Then you have to worry about expansion, load development is totally different, terminal ballistics. Typically solved by going to more meplat and more weight, which shortens your range and further reduces the economy.

The way to achieve economy is by using zinc, but casting zinc is a real pain, and again you have very little to go on for load development. All for boolits that are too light again, requiring upsized calibers.

It's a tough game.

I suggest avoiding tin and zinc. Were I to try again, I would go to bismuth. But I can't recommend that for or against due to lack of experience.

[tomo]

Does ITAR or some such prevent you from mail ordering bullets, particularly from the US? If so, can your dealer mail order from the US for a nominal fee?

What about hand carry? If you happened to be on a plane on a business trip, would that be a no-no?

When I buy them personally, I can get import permission from Japan government if I fill some documents and just send facsimile to them.
But online shop in US needs export license to ship bullets, brasses and so on. Of course, some shop has the license but they sell at a price.
I have a chance to visit US frequently but I am not sure that I can carry bullets on board and get back without any problems.

Fortunately, Barnes TTSX costs not so expensive at local gun shop (1 USD/piece) even though there are a few choices.

[Whiterabbit]

I ask because shooter's pro shop is a great source for nosler E-tips. I do not know if they have an export license.

Furthermore, I know that I can buy bullets and travel with them in my carry on luggage within the US. I expect to get hassled by TSA but it is never rejected when I explain that bullets are no different than fishing sinkers. Sometimes I have to open the box to show them it is not loaded ammo. This is also no issue for me. I have done this in Boise and in Portland, travelling to San Jose.

I do not know what hassles you would get in immigration on the Japanese side. How would they even know? Personal use, so I wouldn't declare them. That's me not having any understanding of Japanese law of course.

But I would DEFINITELY ask. Especially if you can have a friend mail order for you so you can take advantage of internet or warehouse pricing.

you don't happen to shoot 7mm, and travel to the SF bay area when you come here, do you? I think I have some 140 gr E-tips lying around....

[tomo]

If I lived in some sort of restrictive environment like that, I suspect that I would be tempted to just buy one of those mini lathes and make my own bullets from copper rods.
Yes! I dreamed that I can use a lathe to make bullets. Before I buy a lathe, I must make more space for it.
Using lathe must be fun that making a lot of designs and talking about it at this forum.

[NavyVet1959]

Yes! I dreamed that I can use a lathe to make bullets. Before I buy a lathe, I must make more space for it.
Using lathe must be fun that making a lot of designs and talking about it at this forum.

Yeah, I understand that your homes tend to be a bit more compact over there. When I was there, I never made it past the bars.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If I see one more post about societal gun culture, I'm unsubscribing, I hope others do too. I thought this was supposed to be a thread about hunting and shooting lead free bullets.

Oh, post 58 wasn't that bad. It is very hard to distinguish the legal and practical aspects from attitudes Japan is entitled to have.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I ask because shooter's pro shop is a great source for nosler E-tips. I do not know if they have an export license.

Furthermore, I know that I can buy bullets and travel with them in my carry on luggage within the US. I expect to get hassled by TSA but it is never rejected when I explain that bullets are no different than fishing sinkers. Sometimes I have to open the box to show them it is not loaded ammo. This is also no issue for me. I have done this in Boise and in Portland, travelling to San Jose.

I do not know what hassles you would get in immigration on the Japanese side. How would they even know? Personal use, so I wouldn't declare them. That's me not having any understanding of Japanese law of course.

But I would DEFINITELY ask. Especially if you can have a friend mail order for you so you can take advantage of internet or warehouse pricing.

you don't happen to shoot 7mm, and travel to the SF bay area when you come here, do you? I think I have some 140 gr E-tips lying around....

I think there is a difficulty on the US postal export side. I know Buffalo Arms can't export rifle or pistol cases to countries where they are uncontrolled, but did send me some 24ga brass shotgun cases, because the legal situation is different for shotgun components.

[bobob]

I am the author, Robert O. Burgess, M.D., of post # 58.

The topic of this thread, 'non-toxic deer hunting bullets', made me want to read it to see where it led and then came the reference to eagles dieing because they had eaten a meal that had been killed with a lead bullet, said Mr. Tomo. This lead myth came from Rachel Carlson's, "Silent Spring," about 1947, where she trashed DDT and that book caused DDT to be banned in the U.S. DDT kills eagles and thins falcons' eggs she said.

Now the politically correct want to ban all lead.

I thought this site was about cast boolits, lead, antimony, tin. Not toxic lead and eagles.

[tomo]

I think there is a difficulty on the US postal export side. I know Buffalo Arms can't export rifle or pistol cases to countries where they are uncontrolled, but did send me some 24ga brass shotgun cases, because the legal situation is different for shotgun components.

According to a US regulation, shotgun hulls can be exported from the states without any license. But it needs export license to ship rifle-related bullets and cases. They are US side matter. On the other hand, there are no need to have import license at Japan side. Just fill some documents and send facsimile to ministry of trade. that's it.

If I carry them on board with me, I can show my gun license at custom. I don't know whether or not I have a problem when I get out of the US. And I can buy Barnes copper bullets here. Instead of such risks, I want to bring back a bunch of souvenir instead of many boxes of bullets which occupy large part of weight allowed if I have a trip to the US.;-)

[Whiterabbit]

Checked, I do have 140 grain 7mm E-tips. You can have 'em if you come to the SF bay area when you travel to the US, and the barnes you are looking at are the 140 grain 7mm TSX. Just a shot in the dark, I don;t know what TTSX you have over there.

Just an offer if you wanted to compare the E-tips to the barnes. I have the extras cause I tried both and like the Barnes better. Which is too bad because for me (usa internet price), the E-tips are much cheaper.

I guarantee you will not have an issue with TSA coming out of the USA. Yes they will stop you and you have to explain that "bullets" are not "ammunition". but they will let you into the secure area for sure.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am the author, Robert O. Burgess, M.D., of post # 58.

The topic of this thread, 'non-toxic deer hunting bullets', made me want to read it to see where it led and then came the reference to eagles dieing because they had eaten a meal that had been killed with a lead bullet, said Mr. Tomo. This lead myth came from Rachel Carlson's, "Silent Spring," about 1947, where she trashed DDT and that book caused DDT to be banned in the U.S. DDT kills eagles and thins falcons' eggs she said.

Now the politically correct want to ban all lead.

I thought this site was about cast boolits, lead, antimony, tin. Not toxic lead and eagles.

Reasons for being able or not being able to use them are surely of some relevance then. The effect of lead on the Californian condor is convincingly documented, with its being blamed for 23 deaths since 2009, from a population of 70 which doesn't breed until the ago of 6 or 8.

It is an exceptional bird. Whether projectile lead is a significant danger to eagles, Japanese or otherwise, depends on such factors of how much of their diet is carrion, compared with the condor's near-100%, and whether they can produce young before lead poisoning takes effect.

The effects of lead and DDT are quite separate issues, the main common factor being that both have been proven true, and substitutes could be used in both cases. Doing something because it is PC and not doing it because it is PC are just two sides of the same coin.

[tomo]

Checked, I do have 140 grain 7mm E-tips. You can have 'em if you come to the SF bay area when you travel to the US, and the barnes you are looking at are the 140 grain 7mm TSX. Just a shot in the dark, I don;t know what TTSX you have over there.

Just an offer if you wanted to compare the E-tips to the barnes. I have the extras cause I tried both and like the Barnes better. Which is too bad because for me (usa internet price), the E-tips are much cheaper.

I guarantee you will not have an issue with TSA coming out of the USA. Yes they will stop you and you have to explain that "bullets" are not "ammunition". but they will let you into the secure area for sure.

Thanks for great offering and your kindness, Whiterabbit.
But I have only .308 rifles not 7mm so far. I have been SF for sightseeing 20 years ago but I had no chance to visit there after that, even though
frequently I visit Tucson, New York, Seattle and Phoenix because of gem show my wife loves, my relatives, and the university I worked in past times.
I have a chance to get to gun shop like Cabela's at next visit (except in NY). And I will have non-toxic bullet seeking adventure. It must be fun.
I will buy them if just I need is talking to TSA and they let me go. Thanks for good information.

[Whiterabbit]

Yep, we're in different areas of the country. I travel to areas such as Boise Idaho and Portland Oregon (Yokkaichi and once to Aizu Wakamatsu and Tokushima too), and do exactly the same @ Cabelas from US sites.

First, I should say I don't know what will happen if you put them in checked luggage. It's legal and fine (in the US), but if you get a stupid bag checker who does not know "bullet" vs "ammunition", I don't know if they will make the mistake and think it is undeclared ammunition and confiscate it. In short, I only hand-carry bullets in my carry on luggage.

So what happens is this. I get flagged in the security gate every time. I guide them exactly to what they are looking for, telling them I know what they found. They find the box of bullets. I then tell them "that is not loaded ammunition", that they are "projectiles only, just like a fishing sinker. metal only"

One of two things happen. You get a TSA guy who knows what you are talking about then he lets you go. OR, he doesn't know what you are talking about and does one of two things. #1 he asks you to open the box to inspect, which is easy enough, then you get let go. #2, he is unsure so he calls the supervisor to escalate, you tell the supervisor the same thing (always the same line "this is not loaded ammunition, these are projectiles, they are just bits of metal, like fishing sinkers."). The supervisor will let you go.

All paths always lead to you getting on the plane with your bullets in your carry on bag. This is all just the American side. My worst case was a 45 minute delay in security, plan accordingly.

noone else on the American side needs to know what you have. Immigration, ticketing, etc, none of their business. It's just the security line that has to vet you.

[Whiterabbit]

Reasons for being able or not being able to use them are surely of some relevance then. The effect of lead on the Californian condor is convincingly documented, with its being blamed for 23 deaths since 2009, from a population of 70 which doesn't breed until the ago of 6 or 8.

It is an exceptional bird. Whether projectile lead is a significant danger to eagles, Japanese or otherwise, depends on such factors of how much of their diet is carrion, compared with the condor's near-100%, and whether they can produce young before lead poisoning takes effect.

The effects of lead and DDT are quite separate issues, the main common factor being that both have been proven true, and substitutes could be used in both cases. Doing something because it is PC and not doing it because it is PC are just two sides of the same coin.

Hunters object not THAT the condors are getting lead poisoned, they object to the assumption that they are getting poisoned from bullets. No research was performed to find root cause. Just a straight jump to conclusion. We also object to the idea that, since they are still getting poisoned, that the jump to conclusion is again that hunters are not complying with the law. Any technical industry would conclude that root cause was not addressed and start looking at other known sources of environmental lead.

In short, it's always our fault, guilty by association and without proof, combined with a legislature willing to play along.

[bobob]

I see that this site is made up of several lead banners bunches. And where better to infiltrate than in a cast boolit bunch.

The California Condor's problem is that it is in California.

All kinds of toxins are in California and that's why California banned lead bullets, semi-automatic rifles, if they are labeled 'assault' and the Constitution.

Your "science" is not fact, its putrid.

[Whiterabbit]

The science is fine, just incomplete. It's perfectly possible that other lead sources are the cause of the condors getting poisoned. Like I said, the question is not IF the condors are getting lead poisoned. It's determining the root cause. That has not been done.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

If I want to shoot something that I don't want to get toxic, I dip my bullets in mercurochrome.

[bobob]

We don't use mercurochrome up here in our mountains, Ole Joe Clarke, but some of the boys have been moonshinin' lead antitoxin up in the hollers.

They make the antitoxin into a paste and smear a glob of it into the holler of a holler point lead boolit and sell the boolits to squirrel hunters in California. Some of those California hunters don't shoot too good and some of the squirrels crawl off and die. The Condors then eat the leavins, lead, antitoxin and all and the Condors don't die.

It's a puzzlement. The scientists can't explain their findings, many of them being public school educated, so they just throw it out, squirrel carcass, antitoxin and all. Can't be messing up their boolit-ban agenda and that's a fact.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

They probably just use the mash that is left over, that way no product is wasted. :-)

[Capt. Methane]

I just have to wonder how much lead is being left behind in how many critters are getting away from the hunters in CA that the dang vultures are getting sick from it...really?

Yeah, and vultures come down along the freeway and gobble up all of the wheel weights that fall off of cars too...

:shock:

Here's a reality check about lead poisoning in humans. Since Condors and Eagles don't shoot and sweep the floors in indoor ranges and elemental lead from bullets passes through the digestive system...

http://chuckkleinauthor.com/Page.aspx/267/lead-poisoning-concerns-for-police-officers.html

just sayin'.

I know it doesn't change the laws but I suspect the lead Condors are picking up may have come from the Tetra Ethel Lead in auto fuel...

Oh, and who determined that the Condors died of lead poisoning and would I be wrong to be suspicious of their motives?

[Capt. Methane]

For the OP, since the rotometals lead free alloy had been covered, would it even be remotely practical to have one of the US outlets like Brownells or Midway ship you some of the lead free bullets?

[Duckiller]

Condors are lead intolerant. A deer shot with lead boolits will have enough lead left in internal organs to kill a condor. This was discussed by a Vet on this board several years ago. Initially Cal F&G (now F&W) asked hunters to bury internal organs when dressing animals in the field. A significant number of successful hunters were incapable of doing this. The next step was to exclude lead bullets from where condors were known to exist and surrounding areas. Then the Fish and Game Commission and the state legislature got involved and by 2019 we will be lead free while hunting. California hasn't had lead in its gas for a long time so that is not the source of the lead. Led ores do occur in nature and that is probably one source. Another problem is that the way condors live is causing their demise. Left to its own devices Condors would cease to exist soon. The people whose livelihood depends on keeping condors around don't want them to go away so they do everything they can do that doesn't offend rich people that have beach houses. Condors are scavengers. They would dearly love to eat dead whale or sea lions or seals. Rich bitches don't want these dead animals stinking up their houses so they are hauled out to sea and blown up. Rich bitches have more clout than hunters even rich hunters. I am going hunting in the condor zone this year. Will use $1.00 each Barnes bullets. #2 son is not doing to carry a rifle but use his Raging Bull. No 454 ammo but he will use 45 Colt ammo. $33.00 for 20 rounds. Neither of us expect to get a deer, just an excuse to wander around the back country.

[Bigslug]

Condors are lead intolerant. A deer shot with lead boolits will have enough lead left in internal organs to kill a condor. . .

Whether they're correct on the amount of lead poisoning required to kill a condor or not, wouldn't the easier fix be to simply design and hunt with bullets that don't come apart on impact and stand a better than even chance of exiting the animal? My father double-tapped his deer last year with a pair of .45 caliber Lyman #2 RCBS 405 grainers, and I can guarantee that there wasn't a crumb of lead left behind in that animal.

We have the expansion vs. meplat discussion often enough on this forum. Diameter is fine whether you get it by expansion or by starting bore size, but it will always be trumped by accuracy. This is why the African guides like their round-nose FMJ's - as long as you can count on the bullet reliably travelling THROUGH whatever you properly line it up with, you can count on the animal to reliably die. The condors get their yummy gut pile, the bullet travels on to lay on a hillside till the end of time, and we don't get our sport legislated out of existence.

[bobob]

The lead and gun banners need to get tougher condors and rats. But they have an agenda, ban hunting, lead, guns, boolits and the right to keep and bear arms.