Gunsmith said "I couldn't get the barrel off".

[M71]

After much trepidation I decided to have my Pedersoli "Long Range" 45-70 reamed out to 45-90. While I was waiting for the rifle I've been busy prepping brass, casting bullets and patching my new shiny bullets. The gunsmith called today...finally. My separation anxiety was over. My bubble burst when the gunsmith said he tried in earnest but the barrel wouldn't budge. Not wanting to buy me a new gun he said he needed to quit before something bad happened. I'm kind of disappointed but the gun was not damaged and perhaps it just wasn't meant to be. My chosen smith is world renowned for the highest quality craftsmanship period. I'll trust his judgement on his decision to return my rifle. Now what? Be happy with it as is? I already have a "Super Match" 45-70 and thought a 45-90 would be a fun challenge to master. I suppose I could find another qualified smith but I have my doubts. I might just be asking for trouble. Could the barrel be reamed without being removed? Thanks in advance for your ideas.

[country gent]

Well your talking moving the chanber mouth .300 farther forward for the 45-90. The chamber could be cut by hand but alighnment might become an issue. The pilot on the reamer if snug fitting will alighn the front but the back will depend on the alignment provided by the set up or skill of the craftsman doing the work. Set up and indicated to dead true zero in a lathe and reamer ran in to depth would be ideal way. Would your smiths lathe allow action to spin in front of the chuck? Set up in lathe indicate muzzle and chamber ends into zero and cut chamber with a extension to allow chuck reamer holder to clear tangs ?

[M71]

All I can honestly say is his prescribed method for rechambering the rifle required barrel removal. There were no other options discussed. There certainly may be alternative methods. I feel he wanted to do the job to the best of his abilities without deviating from his normal procedures. I respect his decision. Perhaps with a long handled reamer using a bushing in the existing chamber would assist in keeping a true zero. I'm not even remotely educated in such things.

[Skipper]

I've reamed 2 .45-70's to .45-90 using the rental reamer from 4-D products and hand turning the stock. Takes about 10 minutes including cleanup; no need to remove the barrel.

[Reg]

Could not remove the barrel on a Pedersoli -----really ?????
But then again as others have pointed out, why do you need to remove it in the first place when going from 45-70 to 45-90 ?
I think you need a second opinion on this one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Probably a change of gunsmith. The main reamer-makers sell extensions to fit the square on the reamer, most likely 3/8in. But it might have an enlarged end which fouls the rear of the action, and he might want (quite unnecessarily) to ream it on the lathe. With my own reamer I would epoxy it into a piece of steel tube, or I would buy the cheapest sort of Chinese socket set extension bar, and do it by hand. If the business end of the thing was over large I would grind it down by spinning against a grinding wheel or belt sander.

But you can hardly go back to him and say "Here is a device that will solve the problem I think you lied about." That does tend to sour the relationship.

[KCSO]

Sometimes the barrels on some rifles especially with square threads are o tight thy just won't budge and the big hammer treatment will crack the short receiver section. This has happened to me twice with trapdoor springfields. have never had the problem with a Pedersoli though. As to cutting the chamber most of the chamber supports the 45-90 reamer and carefull hand work will recut it if you go slow and do it right, not he prefered method but it can be done.

[Reg]

KCSO, right you are. Old Trap Doors and many others like them require one be vary careful when trying to remove the barrels. Old steel and deep not well controlled case hardening and just time itself tend to make for a tight and very brittle situation add the use of black powder and sometime improper cleaning and you have the perfect recipe for a cracked or broken receiver.
The Pedersoli's on the other hand are much newer in manufacture, are made from much more ductile steel, if case hardened are only lightly generally for appearance and all I have seen had V threads.
Proper fitting barrel vise and action wrench are the trick here, in short good equipment. Some of these advertised "universal" action wrenches and barrel vises are universal in the respect they don't really fit anything.
Barrels are usually not a problem it is the action that needs to be correctly fitted on the outside and properly blocked on the outside. Then don't go crazy with the big hammer. If it won't move with the correct amount of pressure then there are many other ways to loosen things up but I still question if it needs to be done at all.

Just remembering I had a Pedersoli RB on the bench right now I went and took a look.
Comparing clearance angles etc., there is no reason to remove the barrel to deepen that chamber.
Yes, it would be more technical to remove the barrel and cut the chamber deeper from centers but again, you are right, there is so much guidance in the existing 45-70 chamber to deepen it that small amount if one is only partially careful there is no reason it would cut off center or out of round.

Could there be another reason he didn't want to do it ???

[MBTcustom]

More information is needed.
If the chamber your rifle has now is oversize, it could be that the smith knows that reamers are always cut to minimum SAAMI spec, and he was afraid that the original chamber might not totally clean up. Another consideration is that the original chamber may not have been cut straight which could, (along with the previous issue) cause a shadow line on your brass when it is removed from the rifle.

A professional smith wants you to pull beautiful brass from your rifle without any reamer striations on it. These reasons are why the barrel should be mounted in the lathe, headspaced there, and finally honed at the same time. This allows the smith to blend everything together and provide you with a chamber that leaves no marks on your brass.

Now it's true, he could have easily taken the stock off and reamed it by hand, and there's a good chance the chamber would clean up, but it could be he took a casting of the chamber and had reason to believe this was not the case. It's aweful hard to hone steps/scratches out of a chamber with a DeWalt drill and keep everything straight. This could very well be a possible reason he refused the work. There was surely a good reason because he didn't get to be "world renowned" by not solving people's problems. By the same token, he didn't get to be world renowned by damaging customers rifles either.

I agree with the decision of this smith. It's much better that he sent it back rather than damage something, and there are plenty of "gunsmiths" that do not have the good sense to know when they are in over their heads.

If you plan on doing this yourself, I would take a casting of the chamber and make careful comparisons to the new reamer to make sure it will actually clean up.

I would contact a smith that has experience dealing with this particular type of rifle and let him take a look at it.

[M71]

He tried three separate times. I don't think he employed the use of a hammer. The steel bar was 3 feet long and was at least an inch thick and 3 inches wide. I believe he used only leverage. He gently applied some heat to the receiver but it still refused to budge. I didn't question him about using a different technique to do the job. His method of using a lathe is how he does it and he's only doing what he knows that works with the least possible margin of error. There is another experienced smith in the area but he's extremely temperamental and his patented reply to many of my inquiries is "Not interested". It's much easier to just avoid him altogether. I'm not wild about shipping the gun but that is a possibility. The rifle shoots just fine as is. My inventory of neck sized, paper over match primers, trimmed and champfered 45-90 brass will have to gather dust until I get it figured out. I'm sort of depressed but I think the smell of burnt black powder might snap me out of it. I need to get over being super obsessive when I think I "need" something.

[NSB]

I think you need to take the gun to someone who has more experience in doing this type of work on these types of guns. There are a number of qualified gunsmiths who do this all the time and don't have any problem doing them with the barrel on the gun and don't have any problem taking the barrel off the gun either. I respect the fact that your chosen gunsmith opted to be safe and not do anything if he wasn't comfortable doing it but that doesn't mean it can't be done correctly, and well done at that, by another qualified smith.

[country gent]

I wont say this is the reason here but every few years at work we got lectured on paradimes ( a pattern or set way of doing things). Alot of trades get in a routine of doing things a certain way and then it becomes the "way" all other ways or work arounds are ignored or over looked. This is easy to get into and in all honesty whats always worked has alot of plusses also. A bushing on the back of the reamer to support it sounds good but would be so thin as to not be there in any practical form. Hand reaming with an extension could be done but the extension will magnify and wiggles. What might work well if available is a military style pull thru reamer that is pulled thru from the muzzle. A fitted pilot at the muzzle for the drive rod and the piloted reamerproperly fitted in the chamber might allow for a very precise rechambering some what easily.

[Wayne Smith]

If you have a good relationship with him take it back, ask him to set it up to unscrew the barrel the way he usually does that night before he goes home. Ask him to fill a five gallon bucket with sand, tie it to the end of his three foot bar at least a foot off the ground. If the bucket isn't on the ground the next morning when he comes to work you will take the rifle home and not bother him again.

[oldred]

Not being a licensed gunsmith I can't speak directly for that decision but having dealt with machinery repairs/welding for many years where there are usually several different approaches to any job I can certainly understand his decision. It's not really a matter of being stubborn or "set in his ways" but rather a decision to pass on doing this or pass it on to someone else rather than attempt doing a new method that he may have been uncomfortable with. I agree 100% with Goodsteel's assessment and I know from experience in my line of work that it takes a lot of fortitude to admit that "I can't do this" or "I would rather not take the risk of attempting a new method", this in no way is an admission of incompetence but rather a decision not to take a chance of making a mistake by changing methods. As was pointed out we simply don't know all the particulars involved here.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

You need a better gunsmith. It is the simplest thing in the world to use a 45-90 reamer with a floating pilot and just run it in the barrel to cut it by hand. You use a T-handle and lots of cutting oil, and take about an hour. The 82 year old gunsmith I had took a Q-tip and coated the rim cut of the chamber with dylem blue toward the end. As soon as he saw even a smidge of blue cut, he stopped and checked with an FL resized dummy round. It cost me one of my good Cuban cigars and a cold beer, after the work was completed.

The only reason it takes that long, is the fact that you make about two revolutions of the reamer, and then remove it gently to remove the swarf and recoat it with cutting oil.

My old gunsmith reamed mine from 45-70 to 45-120 in about two hours with the barreled action clamped between leather padded jaws of a vise.

[10 ga]

You have the perfect reason to buy another rifle.

If the existing barrel isn't trashed just leave it on and get another rifle or donor action for a custom barrel. 10

[Skipper]

If you don't want to do it yourself, call Wayne York at Oregon Gunsmithing; ask if he has a reamer. He does fine work and turnaround time is fast.

Oregunsmithing@earthlink.net

541-278-4177

[KCSO]

Pedersoli's are made by ham handed Iyties who don't always do the right thing. I have actually hade barrels GLUED into place on some of these. I had a lever once that had the barrel held in by a goober of epoxy and when it was cleaned off the barrel would go another 1/4 turn past square. If the gunsmith quit cranking you can bet he found something he didn't like.

[pietro]

.


At least he quit & told you, instead of buggering it up, like many other "gunsmiths" do.



.

[M71]

From all of the responses I believe the barrel needs to stay put, not that it was going anywhere. The T-handle method suggested by Idaho Sharpshooter sounds like an excellent alternative, however it would require one long enough to clear the tang after stock removal. I agree with what KCSO said, "If the gunsmith quit cranking you can bet he found something he didn't like." I'll explore a local solution without taking the barrel off. It wouldn't be fair for the next smith to encounter the same situation, trying to remove a barrel that refuses to move and perhaps destroying something that still works. I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses.

[Bent Ramrod]

If you strip the receiver of all parts and furniture (including the lower tang) you should be able to get the reamer to turn by hand using an extension tap handle. I point the muzzle down, clamp the barrel (properly padded) in a vise, brush cutting oil on the reamer, insert and start counting quarter- or half-turns. At, say, 10, I pull the reamer out, brush off chips, run a patch down the barrel (put a trash bag under it to catch the debris), inspect, re-oil and start again. With a dummy cartridge you can relate the number of partial turns to your progress down the barrel. Every once in a while, when you've swabbed out the barrel, loosen the vise and turn the octagon barrel halfway around, or 1/4th the way around. That way, your hand pressure doesn't have a chance to skew the reamer seriously. (Since the chamber is already mostly established, it would be rather hard to run it out badly anyway, without a lot of effort and concentration, especially if you rent a good reamer with a proper pilot.)

It is rather tedious, and a little scary, the first time you do it. But you'd be surprised how well these things usually turn out. The Olde-Tyme Gunsmythe's Secret is to pay attention to what you're doing and go slow, checking your progress often. If it takes all evening and an hour or two the next morning before your reamer is to the level of your old rim seat, that will be, what, two shooting sessions worth of time? You'll find yourself shooting your "new" rifle a lot more than the "store-boughten" ones, just because you put your own effort into it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

More information is needed.
If the chamber your rifle has now is oversize, it could be that the smith knows that reamers are always cut to minimum SAAMI spec, and he was afraid that the original chamber might not totally clean up. Another consideration is that the original chamber may not have been cut straight which could, (along with the previous issue) cause a shadow line on your brass when it is removed from the rifle.

A professional smith wants you to pull beautiful brass from your rifle without any reamer striations on it. These reasons are why the barrel should be mounted in the lathe, headspaced there, and finally honed at the same time. This allows the smith to blend everything together and provide you with a chamber that leaves no marks on your brass.

Now it's true, he could have easily taken the stock off and reamed it by hand, and there's a good chance the chamber would clean up, but it could be he took a casting of the chamber and had reason to believe this was not the case. It's aweful hard to hone steps/scratches out of a chamber with a DeWalt drill and keep everything straight. This could very well be a possible reason he refused the work. There was surely a good reason because he didn't get to be "world renowned" by not solving people's problems. By the same token, he didn't get to be world renowned by damaging customers rifles either.

I agree with the decision of this smith. It's much better that he sent it back rather than damage something, and there are plenty of "gunsmiths" that do not have the good sense to know when they are in over their heads.

If you plan on doing this yourself, I would take a casting of the chamber and make careful comparisons to the new reamer to make sure it will actually clean up.

I would contact a smith that has experience dealing with this particular type of rifle and let him take a look at it.

We seem to have people arguing that he wasn't professional enough to do it, and that he was too professional do it. The reasoning you suggest is logical enough - so logical that there seems no reason not to explain it to the customer, and not claim to be unable to get a barrel off. Being told the truth is not a lot to expect.

[Geezer in NH]

deleted as wrong

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If it is true that the makers sometimes epoxy the barrel threads, the heat necessary to break that bond would be far short of what it takes to harm the action. The full-size action vice and wrench would probably conduct away too much heat, but probably they would use that epoxy for a purpose, and the metal to metal contact isn't too tight for more modest equipment.

[El Bango]

There's no reason to remove the barrel just take your time and keep both reamer and chamber clean of chips. Use lots of oil. Use a good,sharp reamer,you're not removing much metal and brute force is never the answer.

[Geezer in NH]

.


At least he quit & told you, instead of buggering it up, like many other "gunsmiths" do.



.Winner!!! A man must know his limitations.

Any barrel is removable. My first post is wrong But he did not want to turn the shoulder off the barrel to allow it to turn.

I believe he did you a favor.

[flint45]

Once I had a garand that needed a new barrel real bad sent it over to the gunsmith in town.About aweek later he called said no way that barrel is coming off so I made aholder for the recvier so it would not twist and put huge pipe wernch on the bbl.remember bbl. was tost, no way it was moving.So for about 4 days I put Kroil on it in side and out then heated it with a torch not to hot but like it was sitting in the sun after the 4 days I tried it agin IT CAME RIGHT OFF! Took it back and he re-barreled it.

[aap2]

The job can be done without removing the barrel. Barrel removal without damaging the receiver and or barrel can be tricky and I respect a gunsmith who quit trying before something got damaged. Removing a tight barrel can take a lot of time and effort (means expensive) and it may not be worth the cost if the job can be done with the barrel in place. I'm not a professional gunsmith but I have not seen a barrel that can be removed without damage IF you are willing to invest a lot of time to remove it. I usually secure the barrel in a barrel vise (Brownells) using split shell bushings filled with Steel Bed for a perfect fit...dried for a few days and painted with a solution of rosin powder in alcohol and let it dry...deposits a perfect coat of non-slip rosin then clamp the barrel-it will NOT move with this method. A heavy action wrench can be applied to the receiver (with thin brass protective strips) but this has to be done over the barrel shank area to prevent twisting or cracking the receiver...sometimes I will bolt large 4 foot sections of steel angle iron over the action protected by thin brass strips and with most single shots I mill a piece of steel to insert into the action..if the fit is good the action will not twist.... Pulling on the 4 foot lever of angle iron will almost never remove a tight action....but several moderate taps on the angle iron a few inches up from the receiver with a 5lb hammer usually will. If not, I get a can of refrigerant (Tech Spray) and blast it into the barrel chamber to freeze the barrel and shrink it at the breech..a moderate tap will almost always remove the receiver. As you can see, most gunsmiths will never go thru this much time and trouble to remove a very tight barrel, but it can be done. Some will apply a torch to the receiver to loosen it but this damages the receiver and will soften the Steel Bed in the barrel vise bushings.

[BrentD]

Since you mention patching new bullets in anticipation, I think you came out ahead here. Properly loaded, a 45-70 will need in excess of 80 grs of Swiss 1.5 powder, easily out powering many .45-90 grease groove loads. In paper patch, .45-90s require more than 100 grains to support the bullet and just are not as accurate.

[gunguychuck]

I reamed a Sharps barrel by hand from 45/70 to 45/120 without taking the barrel off. It was a simple job anybody that can turn a t handle could do it. My chamber cleaned up OK, but maybe the chamber is over size in his and it wouldn't clean up without setting the barrel back.

[johnson1942]

i suppose this will tick some off but i never saw a need for a 45/90 or above that when all you have to do is use reloder 7 to get the ft per second you want out of your 45/70. i also free bore my 45/70/s my self with a good pilot on the reamer,by hand. i shoot paperpatched bullets that fit up into the bore and it is consistanly very very accurate. got tired of the heavier recoil so now i either shoot real black or blackhorn 209 powder. reloader 7 was just as accurate as real black and reloader 7 could push that paperpatched bullet hard with out looseing accracy. just a thought, i like simple soulutions.

[BrentD]

johnson1942 - your comments don't tick me off. However, Reloader 7 is not a legal powder for most BPCR and BPTR games.

Cutting freebores on rifles by hand or otherwise, generally is not viewed as the best way to make a rifle accurate with paper patches. Less freebore usually better. I strongly recommend NO freebore.

[leadman]

I have finished reamed a few Mauser barrels by hand. I use a 3/8" extension like you put on a 3/8" drive ratchet to give me the clearance I need to turn the T-handle. Reamer fits right in the female end of the extension.
I did have 2 barrels on 1891 Argentine Mausers that did not want to come off so carefully used a hacksaw to cut the barrel just back of where it meets the receiver and they came right off. The barrels were junk so did not matter.
If I had a gunsmith tell me the barrel would not come off my Pedersoli RB in 40-65 I would buy a different gun if I really wanted the longer chamber.

[M71]

I started this thread and have not had the chamber altered in either of my 45-70's. I have however, switched from Goex to Old Eynsford. I'm still paper patching, seating the 530gr. bullet as far out as possible over a .030 JW fiber wad, a NAPA rubber/cork wad, and lastly a 100% wool wad. My loads have only been tested at 100 yards though the accuracy is promising. I have enjoyed everyone's comments. I suppose it would have been fun to have re-chambered the rifle but it really wouldn't have had any impact on my relatively short range shooting. Like Brent D said, I can drop tube over 80 grains of powder in the annealed, fire formed 45-70 cases using PP bullets. I am planning on taking my target out to 600 yards for a real test of my loading and marksmanship skills. Though I'm not sure how many trips out to the target and back I'm willing to do, probably two, set-up and take down. I'll let the spotting scope do the walking. The important thing is I'm still having fun. Enclosed are a couple of "Grassland" photos and one of my recent "beautiful weather" elk hunt up on the headwaters of the Colorado River.

[Clark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOjYro4w0Bc

My video has 22,000 views.


Evidently, some people have had trouble unscrewing barrels.

[Just Duke]

After much trepidation I decided to have my Pedersoli "Long Range" 45-70 reamed out to 45-90. While I was waiting for the rifle I've been busy prepping brass, casting bullets and patching my new shiny bullets. The gunsmith called today...finally. My separation anxiety was over. My bubble burst when the gunsmith said he tried in earnest but the barrel wouldn't budge. Not wanting to buy me a new gun he said he needed to quit before something bad happened. I'm kind of disappointed but the gun was not damaged and perhaps it just wasn't meant to be. My chosen smith is world renowned for the highest quality craftsmanship period. I'll trust his judgement on his decision to return my rifle. Now what? Be happy with it as is? I already have a "Super Match" 45-70 and thought a 45-90 would be a fun challenge to master. I suppose I could find another qualified smith but I have my doubts. I might just be asking for trouble. Could the barrel be reamed without being removed? Thanks in advance for your ideas.

Give me a jingle. I'll tell you how to get the barrel off and why he can't get the barrel off.

[BrentD]

Give me a jingle. I'll tell you how to get the barrel off and why he can't get the barrel off.

I'd be interested in hearing that story. Why not post it here? There is nothing special that I've seen in Pedersoli barrels. I put one on my Shiloh once.

[Just Duke]

More information is needed.
If the chamber your rifle has now is oversize, it could be that the smith knows that reamers are always cut to minimum SAAMI spec, and he was afraid that the original chamber might not totally clean up. Another consideration is that the original chamber may not have been cut straight which could, (along with the previous issue) cause a shadow line on your brass when it is removed from the rifle.

A professional smith wants you to pull beautiful brass from your rifle without any reamer striations on it. These reasons are why the barrel should be mounted in the lathe, headspaced there, and finally honed at the same time. This allows the smith to blend everything together and provide you with a chamber that leaves no marks on your brass.

Now it's true, he could have easily taken the stock off and reamed it by hand, and there's a good chance the chamber would clean up, but it could be he took a casting of the chamber and had reason to believe this was not the case. It's aweful hard to hone steps/scratches out of a chamber with a DeWalt drill and keep everything straight. This could very well be a possible reason he refused the work. There was surely a good reason because he didn't get to be "world renowned" by not solving people's problems. By the same token, he didn't get to be world renowned by damaging customers rifles either.

I agree with the decision of this smith. It's much better that he sent it back rather than damage something, and there are plenty of "gunsmiths" that do not have the good sense to know when they are in over their heads.

If you plan on doing this yourself, I would take a casting of the chamber and make careful comparisons to the new reamer to make sure it will actually clean up.

I would contact a smith that has experience dealing with this particular type of rifle and let him take a look at it.
As the lady that owns a well know Italian rifle company told a buddy of mine that make Sharps rifle stocks and solicited him for counsel/R&D abroad, "I'm having to teach grape stompers to make rifles. lol
Anyway, I have always been under the impression that the bores and chamber are done on a metric scale.
The chamber might not fit the reamer guide. Just saying.

[Just Duke]

If you have a good relationship with him take it back, ask him to set it up to unscrew the barrel the way he usually does that night before he goes home. Ask him to fill a five gallon bucket with sand, tie it to the end of his three foot bar at least a foot off the ground. If the bucket isn't on the ground the next morning when he comes to work you will take the rifle home and not bother him again.

Good one Wayne. Most don't know this. Warm the receiver up and place in in a can of oil overnight, on a hot plate at safe temperature, OUTSIDE! lol prior to this. Throw in a some paraffin also. ;)
Cut threads have microscopic chatter marks in them and have an unintended locking characteristic about them.
Set aside steel is a crystalline composite structure and crystals have sharp edges.

[JHeath]

Long ago I wanted a smith to remove a barrel from an Eddystone M1917. I was told these were sometimes so difficult to remove that the receivers cracked. Tight Acme threads or such. So I stood the rifle muzzle down in a corner and sprayed penetrating oil in the receiver ring every day for a couple weeks before taking the barrelled action to the smith. I watched through the doorway as the smith took it in the shop, clamped it in the barrel vise, attached the action wrench and cheater bar, got his assistant to join him on the cheater bar. "One, two, three!" , a heroic push, and the two guys almost crashed to the floor together, it fell apart so easily. They said the penetrating oil made a big difference.