Hot loading .38 spl full wad cutters

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I was thinking of making some hot wadcutters for my .38 for close quarters personal protection.

Since a wadcutter takes up a lot of space in the case it's hard to push them fast without going over pressure.

My thought was to give it an OAL similar to a standard 158 grain LSWC then use 158gr load data. I've got the Lee 358-147 mould and some boolits laying around.

Anyone try this before?

[Boolseye]

I've pushed WCs pretty hard in .357 mag, up to around 900 or 1000fps.
if I recall, I put a decent charge of BE behind them. They were that Lee 358-148.
there are some pretty good posts here that really get into this subject, too. You wanna watch the pressures, of course. Lately I've been loading DEWCs backward with a low charge of BE-2.7 grains. Unbelievably accurate, I seat them pretty shallow, with the whole base exposed.

[bhn22]

So are you talking std pressure 38 Spl, 38 Spl +P, or 38-44 levels? All have been done before, and all will be done again. Look over Ed Harris' wadcutter recommendations: http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm. If you're planning on shooting them in a 357 mag gun, Lyman has plenty of 357 mag wadcutter loads in their older manuals running over 1300 fps. If you're not using a 357 mag level gun, the 38-44 loads are out of the question for you, and +P is doable only in guns rated for the higher pressures. Seriously, if you feel the need for heavier loads than your gun/cartridge combo is rated for, this is your golden excuse to buy a bigger gun.

[TCFAN]

358432 Lyman wad cutter is what you need. NOE is doing a group buy on this boolit in solid and hollow point. You can find it here. http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,984.0.html

[Geezer in NH]

I use a standard HB wad cutter by Hornady or Speer at normal load amount and Velocity. I do however load it HB forward. Flattens out at 7 yards in a gallon milk jug of water.

Many of my buddies use this load in 38's

[tazman]

In addition to the 358432, you can use any standard wadcutter and crimp it in one of the grease grooves. This moves the boolit out of the case more so you can use standard loads for 150 grain boollits.
Just measure the seating depth of a semi wadcutter and find which grease groove corresponds to the same seating depth.
This works like a charm for me.
The only issue I have is one of my Smiths has a small cylinder throat and the only wadcutter I can seat long for it is the 358432 because it has a bore rider nose. All the others which I size for the rest of my guns won't chamber in that revolver.

[gwpercle]

358432 Lyman wad cutter is what you need. NOE is doing a group buy on this boolit in solid and hollow point. You can find it here. http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,984.0.html

The Lyman #358432 comes in two weights, 148 grain and 160 grain. Same number but two weights. I have the 160 grain mould and testing so far shows it to be the most accurate in two 38 specials and a 357 magnum.
NOE is duplicating the 160 grain version, with pins so you can cast solid point or hollow point or cup point versions, talk about versatile !

I wish I hadn't seen that....now I got to justify getting another mould! But I already have a perfectly good 358432....but it's not a hollow point....but will a hollow point be better...I don't know.... This addiction is driving me to the poor house.

I have to stop listening to the voices in my head....they make me spend money!

[Shiloh]

What about the 158 gr RF by LEE?? Not a WC but would sure hit hard.

Shiloh

[Blackwater]

This has been a big question for SD use for a long, long time, and the answer still seems to be, when all info is taken into consideration, that it very well CAN be effective in .38's, but like ANY and ALL lesser powered calibers and loads, it must be PLACED well to work. This is just the way these things work, and there's no magic in the names we give calibers or loads. it's just a matter of simple results, and with all the variables one can run into in a SD situation, the full load WC is probably at least as good as most, and better than many. With the lower recoil level, there's really no excuse for even a tyro not placing shots well, but that's a matter of psychology and state of mind at any given moment, which is always the "X factor" that can skew many people's experience. With the #1 rule in a gunfight being to simply "have a gun," it'll beat the heck out of wearing a silly grin! As with any tool, from an axe to a hammer, it all depends on how it's wielded that matters most. That's what most evaluations leave out, and it's the most important part. It's amazing how accurate 2" snubbies can really be, but they are harder to shoot because of the short sight radius, etc. Good grips that fit your hand can often make a very significant difference in how well and quickly they can be shot, too. That's been my experience, anyway, and I've been noting these type of related reports for a good many years now. In the final analysis, it seems to be how the gun is wielded and where the bullets land that has the greatest effect. FWIW?

[RogerDat]

Just a curiosity question. How much powder charge does it take to push a WC or SWC or RFN in 38 special through the body be it human or threatening animal you might consider for SD scenarios. Ideally bullet would stop just touching the opposite side of the body. Then all force would have been transferred, going all the way through and out the other side is just wasted powder.

What is a typical range for SD situation? In my house only needs to go 50 ft. at absolute longest possible range. With 20 ft. being more likely. I guess I wondering is there a need to push these rounds really hard or is that a myth?

[35remington]

Yes I have. Reader's digest version I will go into more detail elsewhere:

it is better to load the wadcutter deeply. Velocity consistency is such that average power is as good as when seated out, and powder forward orientation for the longer case results in handicapping it in velocity. Powder forward orientation is the most likely condition for concealed carry and the deeply seated wadcutter easily outruns the shallowly seated one in this condition.

Besides, the non Plus P wadcutter do 860 to 890 fps in a 4 inch with Titegroup or Bullseye and 775 to 800 in a snubby. This is controllable and much more is tough to deal with in a lightweight gun.

The 38 is better as a defensive cartridge with a deeply seated bullet. It is more consistent, more predictable and has no practical deficit in power compared to a bullet seated out.

If handloads for SD make you nervous Buffalo Bore makes a standard pressure WC that goes 850 from a short barrel but in a lightweight revolver this might get a little vigorous.

[Charlie U.]

I have messed around with hotrodding wadcutters in the .38special and .357mag. I just loaded up a batch of .38s (moderate pressure) earlier this week. My loads used boolits cast from Lyman 358432 and 358344 molds.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3/gekkocha/Hunting%20Guns%20Relaoding/Oct2014004.jpg

The 358344 is a full wadcutter and my mold/alloy yeilds a 155 grain boolit. In the .38 special I keep them moderate. My full house loads using W296 and Power Pistol are made in 357mag and are real thumpers. When I CCW my 3" Ruger sp101 I have no reservations about loading the cylinder with these wadcutters.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Charlie, those are some beautiful boolits!

I have used data from my Lee book to make some really nice .357 Magnum wadcutter loads, but my SP101 is a little heavy for day to day carry so I end up packing my 642 or LCRX most of the time and they are both .38+P.

As much as I like that boolit I've already got the Lee mould so I'm trying to make the best of that one.

I figure good things would happen if cast with pure lead and a powder coat.

[Blackwater]

I forgot to mention that in my experience at least, the solid (non-hollow base) WC's, they seem to like to be run a bit harder than the hollow base kind, and tend to stay stable as to accuracy for a bit further, though I never really tried to see just how far they'd hold up. They do well at 50 to at least 75, though. Well past normal SD ranges.

[Frank V]

Yes I have. Reader's digest version I will go into more detail elsewhere:

it is better to load the wadcutter deeply. Velocity consistency is such that average power is as good as when seated out, and powder forward orientation for the longer case results in handicapping it in velocity. Powder forward orientation is the most likely condition for concealed carry and the deeply seated wadcutter easily outruns the shallowly seated one in this condition.

Besides, the non Plus P wadcutter do 860 to 890 fps in a 4 inch with Titegroup or Bullseye and 775 to 800 in a snubby. This is controllable and much more is tough to deal with in a lightweight gun.

The 38 is better as a defensive cartridge with a deeply seated bullet. It is more consistent, more predictable and has no practical deficit in power compared to a bullet seated out.

If handloads for SD make you nervous Buffalo Bore makes a standard pressure WC that goes 850 from a short barrel but in a lightweight revolver this might get a little vigorous.


I am one who doesn't like handloads for defense. It's not a reliability thing, but a lawyer thing.
I have shot Buffalo Bore in both the .38 Special & 9mm it's great ammo. I'd have no problem using the Buffalo Bore WC, but they make a nice SWC non +P that has clocked over 800fps for me from a 2".
I have used WC extensively for small game at standard velocities & have had great results.
Thanks.

[John McCorkle]

I am one who doesn't like handloads for defense. It's not a reliability thing, but a lawyer thing.
I have shot Buffalo Bore in both the .38 Special & 9mm it's great ammo. I'd have no problem using the Buffalo Bore WC, but they make a nice SWC non +P that has clocked over 800fps for me from a 2".
I have used WC extensively for small game at standard velocities & have had great results.
Thanks.I have read the lawyer justification on loads before....are there cases where this has come up in legal defense or just a possibility of coming up in legal defense?

I guess you could just as much see argument about any factory expanding bullet from the same lawyer lens too...just curious.

I carry handloads because I know 1000% barring a bad factory primer (still in the range of possible) it will work flawlessly in my gun, it's accurate beyond what I can get in factory, and I can practice to become more proficient

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[mdi]

I really don't want to get into the "prosecuted for handloads" discussion again. There is no way a consensus can be reached on this subject...

I have a Lyman mold for a 148 gr. DEWC, I cast with WW alloy, and load it over a near max/max. load of W231 for one of my house guns. I seat to the crimp groove, just like I do for my "target loads" with this bullet; 2.9 gr Bullseye (these are normally cast of 20-1 or thereabouts). It's been a while since I chonied them but IIRC they ran about 850 fps. That speed in a full 35 cal flat nose bullet should do the job at living room distances...

[KenH]

I have read the lawyer justification on loads before....are there cases where this has come up in legal defense or just a possibility of coming up in legal defense?Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

https://www.gunforums.net/forums/general-gun-talk/5514-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.html

[John McCorkle]

https://www.gunforums.net/forums/general-gun-talk/5514-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.htmlThanks Ken, have never actually thought about gun shot residue being an issue

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[dubber123]

Aaah, the "lawyer" thing... Well I MUCH prefer my handloads, in the probably 100,000+ I have assembled, I'm drawing a blank trying to remember one not going "bang". I can however remember at least 3 factory rounds doing just that.

But on topic, a full wadcutter probably is a decent choice for self defense, and getting one up to speed even when seated normally is no trick at all. My normal wadcutter loads run about 900 fps.

[John McCorkle]

I checked the Lyman cast handbook just a sec ago and they show several loads with 148 grain wadcutters going 950+ ish...same with the Lee handloading book. Haven't checked Hornady book yet but will do and get back with you.

Lyman lists hp38 (231), Tite group, and bullesye as best powders for not just wadcutters but 38 spc in general across all projos cast

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[Dieselhorses]

Use H110 and crimp hard. 110 is slow burning, crimp generously to powder time to burn.

[JBinMN]

I checked the Lyman cast handbook just a sec ago and they show several loads with 148 grain wadcutters going 950+ ish...same with the Lee handloading book. Haven't checked Hornady book yet but will do and get back with you.



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I would have a look at what was used for a "test" barrel to get that velocity & compare it to what you are going to be using. IOW, Those fps numbers could have come from a 6" universal barrel, etc. & not a 4" that you might want to use, etc..

G'Luck!
:)

[John McCorkle]

I would have a look at what was used for a "test" barrel to get that velocity & compare it to what you are going to be using. IOW, Those fps numbers could have come from a 6" universal barrel, etc. & not a 4" that you might want to use, etc..

G'Luck!
:)Lyman says 4" and Lee does not show but with similar loads and velocities shown I imagine it's a 4" as well

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[JBinMN]

Lyman says 4" and Lee does not show but with similar loads and velocities shown I imagine it's a 4" as well

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OK. Just thought to mention it in case it was a factor.
:)

BTW, I currently & have been carrying reloads in my 38 & 357 snubbies with the first 5 rounds as 148 DEWC followed by JHP in speedloaders for some time. I am running them at max. recommended load data. I may change to factory ammo after reading about the powder burns info in the link offered above, as I was not aware of that info. Thanks to the KenH for offering it.

[Thumbcocker]

One Lyman manual listed right at 1000 fps with 358495 and 231.

[RED BEAR]

be careful frank v i said about the same thing once before and bout started a war. i will admit no one has been prosecuted for using them. but have talked to a couple of lawyers that claim that it was brought up in cases that they handled and it cost the clients to have experts testify to debunk this. have read on different forums about the same thing. i can tell you that the facts of a case are not always why you maybe charged or not the location matters. i near by locality charged a pearson because he opened the door and shot a robber. in my locality a local store owner chased a robber down the block and shot and killed him nothing said about it. if you prefer hand loads then thats what you should carry. i personally will stick to factory ammo for my carry gun. i have been having a lot of primmer problems lately not sure why. but just feel more comfortable with factory ammo.

[waco]

It's almost a full WC. Looks like it would hit hard!
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-155B-D.png

[Dale53]

This has been posted many times before. Ed Harris is a former Ruger development engineer and NRA Staffer. He has the experience and the knowledge. This article has become MY last word in the matter:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

I am a "Certified Old Fart" and have hunted small game extensively with a full charge wadcutter decades before
the internet. I originally found the information on the "Full Charge Wadcutter" from a book, "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting", by Ed McGivern. The book did not give any details on the load because you could buy full charge wadcutters in factory ammo. However, after I used those loads on small game, it was a simple matter to cast my own bullets, reload, and use them. They worked then and still work now, brilliantly!

Ed Harris' article, as you will see, gives us the "why" and his recommendations are spot on with my real world experience on small game. The difference, in effect, compared to other common loads in the .38 Special are dramatic. The reason I mention small game, is that is where my real world experience comes from (local authorities have always frowned on using two legged bad guys as test subjects:groner:).

FWIW
Dale53

[gwpercle]

358432 Lyman wad cutter is what you need. NOE is doing a group buy on this boolit in solid and hollow point. You can find it here. http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,984.0.html

It's a 160 grain....or at least the one I bought a few years ago is, and it's a keeper.
This bullet shoots accurately in every 38 special and 357 magnum I own , even to point of aim in J-frame snub nosed S&W and fixed sighted model 64 S&W . I had a single cavity Lyman but when NOE made a run I jumped on a 4 cavity mould with both feet. It's just about all I load now.
The big hollow point version would look wicked. Mine is just the standard solid point version.
This is one design I really like. My J-frame is loaded up with them as we speak !
Gary

[Char-Gar]

Just a curiosity question. How much powder charge does it take to push a WC or SWC or RFN in 38 special through the body be it human or threatening animal you might consider for SD scenarios. Ideally bullet would stop just touching the opposite side of the body. Then all force would have been transferred, going all the way through and out the other side is just wasted powder.

What is a typical range for SD situation? In my house only needs to go 50 ft. at absolute longest possible range. With 20 ft. being more likely. I guess I wondering is there a need to push these rounds really hard or is that a myth?

You have asked a valid question and one I have pondered on. There are videos out there showing standard factory target wadcutters giving great penetation in gel. These little lead kegs are moving along at 650 or so fps. So, why soup them up to 850 as I do?

Humans comes in all sorts of sizes, and are shot in different places at different angles. I want a load that will give through and through penetration whatever the size and angle of shot placement. OK, that said, through and through is great in my home which is solid masonry block. It is also OK in the wide open spaces, but it is not OK in a people rich social environment.

There has been significant development of factory JHP loads that will give reliable expansion without over penetration. Therefore, in places when it is safe, I used full charge wadcutters, but otherwise use Speer 135 grain Gold Dot, Short Barrel loads.

[texasnative46]

To All,

Some 10-12 years ago, I encountered a Deputy Constable from Tyler, TX who was armed with a S&W Model 64HB, which was loaded with what he called "barrel bullets", i.e., what looked like a WC but in a 200 grain weight. The DC said that the bullets were loaded to about 800FPS.
I asked him if he had cast the boolits & he said that he had bought 300 of them at a Dallas gun-show. Neither he nor I know WHO cast the boolits NOR which mold was used.


He said that he had had to kill a very large & aggressive feral dog, of over 100#, with his revolver & stated that the 200Grain FWC upon exit from the body had made "a large bloody mouse-hole" & that the big dog fell down dead & hardly even kicked.
(As readers have doubtless guessed, I would like some of those "barrels" for close range SD.)

yours, tex

[JBinMN]

One thing to consider, if using any type of SD round, is that the goal is to be able to have the projectile travel 12 - 18 inches so that regardless of the position of the "center mass", the projectile has a likelihood of passing thru "non lethal" parts to get to the "lethal parts".

Of course, one does not want the round to continue with enough energy after pasing thru, IF it makes it thru a body & parts to have an effect on those who are "beyond" and may be possible "non targets". If that happens , one will have to deal with it, but stopping the offensive actions are the most important. So we all should try to not have "collateral damage" be involved if there comes a time to "get down & dirty" with someone who is trying to do serious bodily injury or death to others..

As an example about what I am trying to say,
If a person whom you need to stop, is turned a bit so that in order to hit "center mass" and only if you were to shoot thru their arm & into their body/center mass, the projectile has to have the energy to go thru that arm & into the chest cavity. That is the energy necessary for your SD round to do an effective job. If it only passed thru their arm & then stopped before getting past the rib cage & into where the round can cause more "lethality", then the rounds energy is insufficient...

All of this is well documented as far as I know & is the reason why the 12-18 inches is the rule for the FBI & other LEO organizations who find it prudent to have the capability to stop someone who is trying to injure or kill them or others. Anything less would be likely ineffective to their completing their "mission"/job, and as well may result in the "bad guy" winning the exchange.. Thus, that is why their tests on such rounds try to simulate actual situations that they may come across.

I have my own experiences that made me decide to use WCs as a self defense round in both 38 Spec. & 357 for less than 20-25 yds. Everyone has their own decision to make about such things. I am confident that one of the WCs hitting a person trying to hurt me or mine is not going to be happy, regardless of where it hits & is likely to discontinue their offensive nature.

Of course, YMMV... Do as ya like.
;)

[tazman]

Given the option, I would prefer the bad guy or animal has two holes to bleed from rather than just the entry.
In and around my house, pass throughs are not really a problem. Nearest neighbor is quite a ways off.
In a crowd or public place, I will just have to be vigilant and know what is on the other side of my intended target.

[Char-Gar]

Given the option, I would prefer the bad guy or animal has two holes to bleed from rather than just the entry.
In and around my house, pass throughs are not really a problem. Nearest neighbor is quite a ways off.
In a crowd or public place, I will just have to be vigilant and know what is on the other side of my intended target.

That will require the cooperation of your intended target. Most times these things are come as you are events. Time will be of the essence.

[tazman]

That will require the cooperation of your intended target. Most times these things are come as you are events. Time will be of the essence.

Exactly. You do the best you can with what you have. All anyone can do.

[Forrest r]

Myself, I never liked the wc's for anything other than what they were designed for, putting holes in paper. In a perfect world they do fine 7yds away into anything soft. If the wc's hit anything hard they're done. Not a "hot" load by any means, a 148gr hbwc/830fps 25ft into a bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg
The recovered bullet
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

In short bbl'd 38spl's it's hard to get the wc's fast enough to be effective. In short bbl'd 357's why bother? I have a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357 and have no problem loading 158gr hp's 1200fps (under max load). Any longer bbl'd firearm will have enough hp/bullet speed to be effective with a wide range of bullet designs. Wc's don't do well when they hit anything hard or when they hit anything at an angle. WC's and RN bullets tend to glance off of anything hard instead of biting into it.

I keep seeing the "FBI bare gelatin test/penetration test" quoted all the time. Why??? The FBI uses 6 different tests with gel. Even the hottest wc loads would have a hard time with the 6 tests let along a wc is not the best design for reloading/speed loaders.

Do some real world testing/head to head comparisons with wc's vs 9 or 10 different bullets. You'll find the wc's short comings will show up quickly.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Myself, I never liked the wc's for anything other than what they were designed for, putting holes in paper. In a perfect world they do fine 7yds away into anything soft. If the wc's hit anything hard they're done. Not a "hot" load by any means, a 148gr hbwc/830fps 25ft into a bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg
The recovered bullet
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

In short bbl'd 38spl's it's hard to get the wc's fast enough to be effective. In short bbl'd 357's why bother? I have a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357 and have no problem loading 158gr hp's 1200fps (under max load). Any longer bbl'd firearm will have enough hp/bullet speed to be effective with a wide range of bullet designs. Wc's don't do well when they hit anything hard or when they hit anything at an angle. WC's and RN bullets tend to glance off of anything hard instead of biting into it.

I keep seeing the "FBI bare gelatin test/penetration test" quoted all the time. Why??? The FBI uses 6 different tests with gel. Even the hottest wc loads would have a hard time with the 6 tests let along a wc is not the best design for reloading/speed loaders.

Do some real world testing/head to head comparisons with wc's vs 9 or 10 different bullets. You'll find the wc's short comings will show up quickly.


Have you done any testing yourself?
I’ve read very good results with wadcutter a actually especially loaded a little hotter. You can see luck gunner results below or dig through the IWBA papers. Those articles were the developments of the FBI test as we know them and also some very good criticisms on some of the things the FBI did and still does that are irrrelivent to proper performance.

I’ve actually read articles about wadcutter and semi wadcutters cutting into a Target much better than a round nose and having way less of a chance of glancing off. Even Keith wrote about this when shooting his SWC designs into the heads of animals.

Your picture above kind of demonstrated this. You hit a hard surface that is radiused and the WC grabbed on tight. It’s hard to sell from the angle of the picture, maybe it was just a perfect square hit

I’m not trying to pick a fight or be disrespectful I’m just trying to pass on some good well written and highly respected test results.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

[Char-Gar]

Myself, I never liked the wc's for anything other than what they were designed for, putting holes in paper. In a perfect world they do fine 7yds away into anything soft. If the wc's hit anything hard they're done. Not a "hot" load by any means, a 148gr hbwc/830fps 25ft into a bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg
The recovered bullet
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

In short bbl'd 38spl's it's hard to get the wc's fast enough to be effective. In short bbl'd 357's why bother? I have a 2 1/2" bbl'd 357 and have no problem loading 158gr hp's 1200fps (under max load). Any longer bbl'd firearm will have enough hp/bullet speed to be effective with a wide range of bullet designs. Wc's don't do well when they hit anything hard or when they hit anything at an angle. WC's and RN bullets tend to glance off of anything hard instead of biting into it.

I keep seeing the "FBI bare gelatin test/penetration test" quoted all the time. Why??? The FBI uses 6 different tests with gel. Even the hottest wc loads would have a hard time with the 6 tests let along a wc is not the best design for reloading/speed loaders.

Do some real world testing/head to head comparisons with wc's vs 9 or 10 different bullets. You'll find the wc's short comings will show up quickly.

I don't think penetration in bowling pins is indicative of anything. I have hit them with 45s, 357 magnum and even a 44 magnum and none gave significant penetration.

[tazman]

I used to use an old, dried out, osage orange log(hedge) for a backstop for handgun shooting. The log was about 30 inches in diameter with a layer of soft white wood about 1 inch thick on the outside.
I shot light wadcutter, full power jacketed, and 44mag loads into that log.
Nothing penetrated that log beyond the white wood. Most bullets fell on the ground right next to the log. A few even bounced back a considerable distance.
Very few even expanded as much as the boolit in the picture jacketed included.
Using a hard substance for penetration testing can be deceiving. According to that log, nothing had good penetration.

[John McCorkle]

I used to use an old, dried out, osage orange log(hedge) for a backstop for handgun shooting. The log was about 30 inches in diameter with a layer of soft white wood about 1 inch thick on the outside.
I shot light wadcutter, full power jacketed, and 44mag loads into that log.
Nothing penetrated that log beyond the white wood. Most bullets fell on the ground right next to the log. A few even bounced back a considerable distance.
Very few even expanded as much as the boolit in the picture jacketed included.
Using a hard substance for penetration testing can be deceiving. According to that log, nothing had good penetration.I wanna know what happened to the saw that cut that 30 inch log down?

Bois d'arc is tough stuff...once saw a guy use an aged piece as a knife after honing on an edge...

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[Petrol & Powder]

A type III wadcutter allows a bit more weight in a wadcutter design and about as large of a meplat as possible for the caliber. At short ranges that type of bullet may have some usefulness as a SD bullet. I'm not sure it would be significantly better than Type II wadcutter of approximately 150-160 grains in a .357" diameter. I'm not a fan of "heavy for caliber" bullets. As weights go up, you just start trading velocity for mass.

I do believe a full charge solid WC has some usefulness, particularly in standard pressure loads where that full diameter meplat may get the most performance out of a relatively slow bullet. As a small game bullet that may be called upon for self-defense in a pinch, I think the solid WC pushed a little faster than target velocity has some real merit.

However, in a snub nosed revolver carried solely for self-defense, I'm still going to rely on one of two loads: The "FBI Load" or the Speer 135gr Gold Dot "Short Barrel" load. I'm not claiming they are the best loads available but they have long track records and I find that fact comforting.

[mdi]

I've only been casting for a few years and only tried one wadcutter "style"; a Lyman DEWC. 38 cal, 148 gr.. Can anyone share what Type I, Type II, and Type III wadcutters are? (Google doesn't show much). None of my cast bullet texts mention anything about type either...

[Forrest r]

Have you done any testing yourself?
I’ve read very good results with wadcutter a actually especially loaded a little hotter. You can see luck gunner results below or dig through the IWBA papers. Those articles were the developments of the FBI test as we know them and also some very good criticisms on some of the things the FBI did and still does that are irrrelivent to proper performance.

I’ve actually read articles about wadcutter and semi wadcutters cutting into a Target much better than a round nose and having way less of a chance of glancing off. Even Keith wrote about this when shooting his SWC designs into the heads of animals.

Your picture above kind of demonstrated this. You hit a hard surface that is radiused and the WC grabbed on tight. It’s hard to sell from the angle of the picture, maybe it was just a perfect square hit

I’m not trying to pick a fight or be disrespectful I’m just trying to pass on some good well written and highly respected test results.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

Thank you, you have a very well thought out post with excellent links.

The picture above is a solid direct hit. You want to hit a bowling pin on the trademarks. They are made out of maple and are solid at the trademarks. Hit lower and there's holes in them, the bottom of the pin tends to kick out and the pins stay on the table. Hit the pin a little to the left or right and the pin spins as it falls backwards. Strait hits drives the pin strait back and the bullets grab/penetrate. Back in the day I'd use full house loads in the 357's with ww820 pulldown powder and the lyman 358311 158gr rn bullet in a 6" bbl'd 586 for bowling pins. Hits in the trademark (see picture above) with that combo & the bullet would be either sticking out the back of the pin or leave a lump in the back of the pin.

I understand that some people can not correlate the similarity between a bowling pin and a solid core wood door or a piece of wood molding. This is what the FBI uses to test bullets/wood :
Test Five - Plywood – One piece of 3/4 inch “AA” fir plywood is set 18 inches in front of the gelatin block. This
test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.

The gelatin block used in that test is this:
The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton
t-shirt material (approximately 5.25 ounces per yard, 48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material
(approximately 3.5 ounces per yard, 80 threads per inch); one layer of Malden Mills Polartec 200 fleece and
one layer of cotton denim (approximately 14.4 ounces per yard, 50 threads per inch).

Yes I've done testing with wc's over the years. My 1st mold was a H&G #50 6-cavity mold back in 1985, couldn't even begin to count how many of those wc's I shot in 38spl's & 357's in 2"/3"/4"/6"/8"/8 3/8"/10" bbl's. Back then my landlord had a auto junkyard. Cars that were marked to be crushed he didn't care what you did to them. Spent a lot of time there testing different alloy/bullets/powders/firearms.
I've also spent a considerable amount of time testing on houses. People buy old houses for the trim/fixtures/etc and then bulldoze them. They hire me to recover items that they want in these houses. They don't care what happens to the houses & they become a tests ground. Things like sofa's, fridges, stoves get thrown into the mix as do walls, windows, doors, trim, stairs, cabinets, etc.
For several years I was part of a rapid response team for homeland security. I went around the county doing security upgrades on federal offices. Depending on the level of security they wanted for that building/office. It could be anything from 3 different grades of solid core doors, bomb blast film on the windows to different grades of demising walls. When You start putting up layers of 5/8" drywall with 3/4" plywood, expanded metal, bomb blast film and then more 5/8" drywall on demising walls. You know they mean business. Typically when you did that to the walls you put up 2" thick doors that were clad with metal on both sides and the interior of the door had a metal plate in the center and a resin/sawdust mixture for the wood core of the door. These doors had a 2 hour fire rating.

Anyway, yes I've done a little testing with wc's in the 38spl's/357's over the decades. Tested the h&g #50's & 42's, lyman 358495/358395/358093 & mihec 148gr hbwc's/170gr wc's. Did the testing with several different bbl lengths/powders/alloys. Shot a bunch of different critters with them along with 100's of cars, houses, household items, etc. I've also worked on 200+ government offices installing what the fed's deemed safe.

If you like wc's by all means use them. If anyone has a hard time with recoil, wc's are an excellent choice even though the OP asked about "hot wc loads". In a perfect world using them on simple gel blocks or soft tissue would be the cat's meow. In the real world sometimes it just isn't that simple & if anyone does a little of their own testing they'll find out where the wc bullet design falls short. A wc would be my last choice of bullets for sd, hot load or not. I choose not to put myself at a disadvantage with a poor choice of bullet design for a sd load.

And yes I've also done a little testing with the 44spl/44mag and wc's/hbwc's. Sold off some of the 44cal wc molds over the decades, but I still have these laying around.
https://i.imgur.com/iMopAGs.jpg?3

[Petrol & Powder]

I've only been casting for a few years and only tried one wadcutter "style"; a Lyman DEWC. 38 cal, 148 gr.. Can anyone share what Type I, Type II, and Type III wadcutters are? (Google doesn't show much). None of my cast bullet texts mention anything about type either...

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_11_Wadcutter.htm

A type III wadcutter extends beyond the casing. The extra length results in a heavier projectile.

[tazman]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_11_Wadcutter.htm

A type III wadcutter extends beyond the casing. The extra length results in a heavier projectile.

One slight detail is incorrect. The type three does extend beyond the case but does not necessarily result in a heavier projectile. It just leaves more room inside the case for powder and thereby reduces pressure somewhat. It allows for a full power load in 38 special.
My Lyman 358432 is a type three and it drops at 148 grains. There were two versions of the 358432. One is a heavier boolit at 160 grains. The other is a 148 grain projectile.
For reference----http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm
I use the same powder charges for this boolit that I use for 150 grain SWC boolits and it shoots very well. Easily is more accurate than my capabilities allow.
The same thing can be accomplished by crimping a standard wadcutter in one of the middle lube grooves instead of the crimp groove or over the end.

[texasnative46]

John McCorkle,

Exactly what I wondered when I read that. = When I as single & had a house in rural NE Texas, my local friends in the PD, SD & I used to shoot .22, .32 & .38 "target loads" down the long central hallway. - Our backstop was a bale of cotton.
(When I married my late wife in 1987, that shooting "came to a screeching halt". - "VK" said that it made the whole house reek of gunpowder. = She said, "NO WAY is that going to continue".)

yours, tex

[mdi]

Thanks for the reference, I guess I missed that article. I use a Lyman type II DEWC cast with about 13-15 BHN alloy over a near max/max load of W231. I have purchased a few type III in 44 caliber for my 44 Magnums, but don't have that data on hand...

[John McCorkle]

So as a confession, all this discussion has me really thinking hard about the 38 spc as a good HD round...loading a metric ton of 148 wadcutters over bullseye and spending alot of time with my model 10.

Wheather the 148s would be my go to or not....don't know. Speer 135 gold dots are cheap enough I can load alot of them to practice full house loads but focus on really honing my precision with handgun after let's say 20k rounds downrange is high on my interest list now. I've always kept the 38spc as a great practice gun but man...it would be cheap to get tons of practice in and put a razor hone on my shooting skill...2.6 grains at a time and just watch the mechanics of practice take over.

If I can make a backstop to catch some of that lead to recast that would be even better...450 lbs of lead is getting more and more difficult to come by now at the local tire shops...

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[RED BEAR]

it matters more where you shoot than what you shoot. the majority of bad guys stop what they are doing when shot for fear of being shot again. now not all will stop but several more rounds pretty much does the trick.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thank you, you have a very well thought out post with excellent links.

The picture above is a solid direct hit. You want to hit a bowling pin on the trademarks. They are made out of maple and are solid at the trademarks. Hit lower and there's holes in them, the bottom of the pin tends to kick out and the pins stay on the table. Hit the pin a little to the left or right and the pin spins as it falls backwards. Strait hits drives the pin strait back and the bullets grab/penetrate. Back in the day I'd use full house loads in the 357's with ww820 pulldown powder and the lyman 358311 158gr rn bullet in a 6" bbl'd 586 for bowling pins. Hits in the trademark (see picture above) with that combo & the bullet would be either sticking out the back of the pin or leave a lump in the back of the pin.

I understand that some people can not correlate the similarity between a bowling pin and a solid core wood door or a piece of wood molding. This is what the FBI uses to test bullets/wood :
Test Five - Plywood – One piece of 3/4 inch “AA” fir plywood is set 18 inches in front of the gelatin block. This
test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.

The gelatin block used in that test is this:
The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton
t-shirt material (approximately 5.25 ounces per yard, 48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material
(approximately 3.5 ounces per yard, 80 threads per inch); one layer of Malden Mills Polartec 200 fleece and
one layer of cotton denim (approximately 14.4 ounces per yard, 50 threads per inch).

Yes I've done testing with wc's over the years. My 1st mold was a H&G #50 6-cavity mold back in 1985, couldn't even begin to count how many of those wc's I shot in 38spl's & 357's in 2"/3"/4"/6"/8"/8 3/8"/10" bbl's. Back then my landlord had a auto junkyard. Cars that were marked to be crushed he didn't care what you did to them. Spent a lot of time there testing different alloy/bullets/powders/firearms.
I've also spent a considerable amount of time testing on houses. People buy old houses for the trim/fixtures/etc and then bulldoze them. They hire me to recover items that they want in these houses. They don't care what happens to the houses & they become a tests ground. Things like sofa's, fridges, stoves get thrown into the mix as do walls, windows, doors, trim, stairs, cabinets, etc.
For several years I was part of a rapid response team for homeland security. I went around the county doing security upgrades on federal offices. Depending on the level of security they wanted for that building/office. It could be anything from 3 different grades of solid core doors, bomb blast film on the windows to different grades of demising walls. When You start putting up layers of 5/8" drywall with 3/4" plywood, expanded metal, bomb blast film and then more 5/8" drywall on demising walls. You know they mean business. Typically when you did that to the walls you put up 2" thick doors that were clad with metal on both sides and the interior of the door had a metal plate in the center and a resin/sawdust mixture for the wood core of the door. These doors had a 2 hour fire rating.

Anyway, yes I've done a little testing with wc's in the 38spl's/357's over the decades. Tested the h&g #50's & 42's, lyman 358495/358395/358093 & mihec 148gr hbwc's/170gr wc's. Did the testing with several different bbl lengths/powders/alloys. Shot a bunch of different critters with them along with 100's of cars, houses, household items, etc. I've also worked on 200+ government offices installing what the fed's deemed safe.

If you like wc's by all means use them. If anyone has a hard time with recoil, wc's are an excellent choice even though the OP asked about "hot wc loads". In a perfect world using them on simple gel blocks or soft tissue would be the cat's meow. In the real world sometimes it just isn't that simple & if anyone does a little of their own testing they'll find out where the wc bullet design falls short. A wc would be my last choice of bullets for sd, hot load or not. I choose not to put myself at a disadvantage with a poor choice of bullet design for a sd load.

And yes I've also done a little testing with the 44spl/44mag and wc's/hbwc's. Sold off some of the 44cal wc molds over the decades, but I still have these laying around.
https://i.imgur.com/iMopAGs.jpg?3

Sounds like you’ve had some fun work and done some fun research and testing.
In the IWBA articles they actually mention how testing with hard barriers was detrimental to proper designs. From a law enforcement perspective they’re not really allowed to (or weren’t at the time) shoot through solid barrier like doors and walls. No blind shooting. Of course there were times were you knew who was behind the door.
That being said. Making a bullet perform wel in the FBI hard barrier test makes the Bullet perform poorly in soft barrier and soft tissues.
So bullet companies at the time wouldn’t make the proper changes because they were worried that bad ratings on the FBI test would put them out of business by losing big LOE contracts. Even though their improved ammo would work way better in soft barrier and tissue which is the overwhelming majority of the police shootings.

I’m only about 70% of the way through the articles so I’ve still yet to see what changes the FBI made if any to their testing.

I agree there are better choices in SD ammo but the lowly wadcutter is better than a RN or TC or a poorly matched hollow point that won’t expand at snubbie velocities and therefore act like a RN or TC.
The full diameter nose crushes much more tissue.

I’ve been taking a serious loook at the new HST micro for my 38 carry gun. It’s basically a hollow point jacketed wadcutter. Seems to be the bees knees.

Thanks for the great post.



it matters more where you shoot than what you shoot. the majority of bad guys stop what they are doing when shot for fear of being shot again. now not all will stop but several more rounds pretty much does the trick.

Agreed.
There are also great articles on this in the IWBA papers.
Psychological vs Physiological incapacitation.
It’s amazing how the body compensates for trauma and how long you can function when you have a few holes in you.

If anyone hasn’t read the articles but took the time to read this post. You should be reading the articles.
They’re serious stuff. Not some gun rag junk but the modern basis for all we know in terminal ballistics and how we judge ammunition today.

[David2011]

Early in the thread someone said they loaded their DEWCs backwards. I tried that but they looked the same either way. (DEWC=Double Ended Wad Cutter)

Swaged soft lead hollow based WCs can be loaded backward. I think a polymer tipped J-word would be better at getting through heavy clothing.

[pls1911]

Placement, placement, placement...
John Wayne's instruction was simple... "Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon; windage and elevation." (The Undefeated)

Between the eyes, between the ears, between the shoulders, or between the boys, one shot should end the fight.

[Michael J. Spangler]

There was a push to get rid of some of the hard barrier tests a long time ago.
They found that the bullets that performed well in those tests performed poorly in the soft barrier and gel tests.
If the manufacturers made bullets that didn’t perform well in the FBI test they would fall from favor and lose big PD and GOV contracts. They knew they were doing it wrong but couldn’t sacrifice their companies profits to fix it.

Great reading in this group of books linked below.
They have great things to say about wadcutter and give real world results and proper terminology and effects of bullets in flesh. Amazing works.

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE