1500 FPS: a What Yardage Ethical for Deer

[emrah]

Yesterday I chrono'd my 7.7 Arisaka load. A .3155 185gr flat point boolit over 12.0gr Unique is going 1480 fps average. Would any of you consider hunting deer with that? If so, what yardage? Just curious.

I am also getting 1690 fps from my 180gr 30-30 (16.0gr A2400) and 1970 fps from the same boolit in 30-06 (24.0 gr A2400)

Thanks,

Emrah

[jhalcott]

do you have minimum caliber or energy regulations where YOU hunt? Do you shoot beyond 50 yards? How accurate is this load at various ranges? DO YOU GET ANY EXPANSION AND GOOD DEPTH IN WETPACK WHEN TESTING THIS LOAD? Testing it will answer most of your questions!

[BrentD]

200 yds would not be out of reason. Not sure how far you want to go. It's more about your shooting ability, shot selection, and range estimation than anything else. The bullet will get the job done, if you do your part.

[white eagle]

do you have minimum caliber or energy regulations where YOU hunt? Do you shoot beyond 50 yards? How accurate is this load at various ranges? DO YOU GET ANY EXPANSION AND GOOD DEPTH IN WETPACK WHEN TESTING THIS LOAD? Testing it will answer most of your questions!

What he said
UNFORTUNATELY there are no pat answers for the question you ask
every rifle,handgun are entirely their own being
so what works for me may not work for your circumstances

[emrah]

It won't be what I hunt with. It'll be bow and muzzleloader for me. I was just asking hypothetically.

All my cast boolits are pure stick on wheel weight so I know they expand (shot a hog with the above mentioned 30-30 load and it had textbook mushroom shape).

Guys more experienced than me seem to set a self-induced FPS/yardage limit; just curious if any of you did.

The Arisaka would be the last rifle I'd hunt deer or hog with. I was just asking to see "if" it could be done and at what range.

For example, I know I'd never take a shot at an animal over 100 yards with my cast 30-30 load. I thought sub-75 or even 50 yards with the Arisaka.

Emrah

[Wolfer]

I'm of the opinion that your load will work at any range you can consistently hit a 6" target without knowing the exact range from a field position. I.E as in hunting.

[DougGuy]

That gun is not limited by distance, it is limited by (as mentioned earlier) how far back can you shoot and still put a round in the kill zone? If you can shoot consistently into 4" at 200yds then I would say it's a 200yd gun. 6" is a reliable estimate but I like to know within the space of a tennis ball where the boolit will strike so for me, it has to be within 3" regardless of the distance.

My .308 will put 3 into a guitar pick @200yds consistently so what does that make it a 350yd gun? I took a 340yd shot on a turkey and hit it within 1/2" of point of aim so now what is it a 500yd gun?

Your boolit may go subsonic before it hits 200yds and it may become unstable in flight when it does so. This would be a limiting factor as well. You just have to take it out and see how far you can get and still group to within your expectations.

[emrah]

Thanks guys. I was worried about velocity too, so I'm thinking if (a big if) I ever hunt more than paper with this thing, it won't be more than 75 yards.

Emrah

[Teddy (punchie)]

One of the only places I have studied Killing Power was P.O's Book (s) and was long and hard to get a understanding. That said from what I recall, white tailed deer somewhere around 1200-1500 Pounds of energy. I would say 900 POE being the bottom end.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Shot a doe through both lungs at 125 yards two years ago with a Lee 170, .309, ACWW, 1800 fps at the muzzle. She went 50 yards and dropped. Exit hole was not much bigger than entry hole.

[BrentD]

Teddy I, personally, think that range, as a low end, is way too high.

[Teddy (punchie)]

If I recall takes 250-450 POE just to make it though the hides.
Teddy I, personally, think that range, as a low end, is way too high.

[Wolfer]

I don't know what the energy of my 58 Remington is. I shoot the lee 452-200-RF and a full case of FFFg. Velocity around 700 fps.

It will certainly shoot thru two layers of deer hide and all of the deer between them.

[BrentD]

If I interpret your post correctly (200 gr bullet) at 700 fps you have a muzzle energy of 134 ft lbs.

[Wolfer]

Thanks Brent.
Ive killed two deer with this load. Oddly enough the end result ( distance traveled after the shot ) mirrored deer shot with my 45 colt with 255 gr @ 1000 fps.

Ive found that where you put the hole is a lot more important than what you put it there with.

[BrentD]

Your Colt makes it to 274 ft lbs. at the muzzle. It's where you hit it that matters.

[TCLouis]

How precise is the gun, how accurate are you with that boolit, gun, load combination?

[OnHoPr]

Your Input Variables


Ballistic Coefficient

0.290

Velocity (ft/s)

1500

Weight (grains)

185



Maximum Range (yds)

200

Interval (yds)

25

Drag Function

G1



Sight Height (inches)

1.5

Shooting Angle (degrees)

0

Zero Range (yds)

100



Wind Speed (mph)

10

Wind Angle (degrees)

90

Altitude (ft)

0



Pressure (hg)

29.53

Temperature (F)

59

Humidity (%)

0.78



Ballistics Results - 7.7 jap


RANGE(YARDS)

VELOCITY(FPS)

ENERGY(FT.-LB.)

TRAJECTORY(IN)

COME UP IN MOA

COME UP IN MILS

WIND DRIFT(IN)

WIND DRIFT IN MOA

WIND DRIFT IN MILS



Muzzle

1500

924

-1.5

0

0

0

0

0



25

1448

861

0.5

-2

-0.6

0.2

0.8

0.2



50

1399

804

1.5

-2.8

-0.8

0.7

1.3

0.4



75

1351

750

1.3

-1.7

-0.5

1.5

1.9

0.6



100

1307

701

0

0

0

2.6

2.5

0.7



125

1264

657

-2.6

2

0.6

4.1

3.1

0.9



150

1225

616

-6.6

4.2

1.2

5.9

3.8

1.1



175

1188

580

-12

6.5

1.9

8.1

4.4

1.3



200

1155

548

-18.9

9

2.6

10.5

5

1.5




The key word in your title is “Ethically”. There have been many variables noted already for contemplation, consistent accuracy for one. You noted that you are using SOWWs, so they are soft and more inclined to mushroom which transfers energy from the boolit to the animal. @ 200 yds there is more ft lbs of energy than the 357 mag @ muzzle. In my own personal opinion the 357 is capable of killing deer, but I wouldn’t use one ethically.

Given a broadside shot @ 200 yds the boolit being soft will still mushroom and go through the deer leaving a smallish tunnel wound, but not a lot of knock down power. Given it will go through both rib sides and both lungs the deer will die. If you hit very near the CNS in the bread basket the deer may only travel a short distance, if not a long distance, but it will die. Given the deer is near swamp, pine needles, or hard tracking the ethics start to dwindle. If there is 3” of snow on the ground without a gazzilion tracks around like at a feed pile then the ethics meter definitely rises. If the low energy half inch tunnel wound is through the back of both lungs the deer may take 30 seconds to a minute or more to eckspire given a considerable distance of travel from the spot of impact. I wouldn’t be doing any hard raking shots with it.

Also, there is the factor of the deer. There are deer tougher than a different deer. There is also the actual deer’s state of mood like is it just moseying through the woods or just walk right into the feed pile without checking the area first. Or, did it come into the feed pile tail twitching, stop and look – stop and look, and all jittery like. Or, did it just get kicked up from a drive or someone pushing it or being shot at where the adrenalin is already pumping? Can you really tell from looking at a deer if it is a tough one or not even though both have the same lungs?

So, I think that accuracy in thought of trajectory and wind plays a part along with a big note on tracking terrain and the deer’s actual state of mood that are major variables to consider in using a lower velocity, lower energy round. I have seen deer killed with a 22, but ethically, really not. The average 44 mag only has about a 700 lbs of energy at 100 yds with a speed of about 1100 fps and I don’t see a problem with that, but it is a larger cal. I just took an average guess on the BC of your boolit.

[smkummer]

Your velocity and bullet weight is close to the best 200 target yard cartridge of the late 1800's and early 1900's and that was the 32-40. Many with a flat or blunt point. I shoot 200 yard steel a lot and if your gun shot that load accurate, it would humanly kill deer at that range if you did your part. Hunting of course has many variables, one is that while we plan for a shot that long, often we find ourselves in a position to take a deer much much closer. Like others have said, hard cast bullets very seldom expand or upset unless you hit some bone.

[35remington]

If expansion matters 1350 fps impact velocity is needed to open the bullet moderately with 12 BHN lead. 30 caliber bullets tend to have small meplats and the "flat point effect" is not great when the nose does not upset at all.

When selecting a hunting load we should be somewhat above the bare minimums needed to allow for range and less than ideal angles. The whole idea is to kill the animal quickly and that works better when you don't try to go as slow as you can.

That should be intuitively obvious but it doesn't get said in these threads as often as it should.

[emrah]

I'm surprised at the responses actually; especially the ones saying 200 yards would be ok. Didn't think it would be effective that far. I was thinking people would say 50 or 75 max. Maybe even not good enough at any range.

It's an NEI flat point (a little less flat point than the C309-170 but close).

If I'm honest, I'd say I'd be 100% confident hitting a 6" circle EVERY time at 75 yards max, accounting for gun, bullet and the occasional flyer.

Good to know it'll work if absolutely necessary.

Emrah

[lino]

I think the popularity of in lines, scoped muzzle loaders or any devices to make a muzzle loader shoot at long ranges detracts from the joy of shooting guns that harken to the old days. What is wrong with being proud that you were patient enough or careful enough (or sportsman enough) to take game at 50 to 75 yards. No hunter will starve if he wisely passes up long shots. He just might think of himself as being ethical.

[Sambar375WCF]

agree with above.

hence why we reach for these ol guns

S3W

[quilbilly]

Teddy I, personally, think that range, as a low end, is way too high.
Ditto

[Motor]

1700 f/s with a 180gr boolit from a 30-30 is pretty respectful. That's not much less than a factory loaded 170gr j-word. While you typically wouldn't be taking 200yard shots with this combination I'd say the boolit and load would be up to the task. Sighted in correctly any deed size game out to 150 yards should be routine.

Motor

[NavyVet1959]

The Type 99 Arisaka is a strong action. It can handle a pretty hot load -- a lot more than I need around here since I'm usually lucky to even be able to *see* past 50 yards due to the underbrush.

[rosst]

i am happy with my .30/30 load / performance out to 100 yards on Goats, Fallow n Red Deer - 197grn RCBS boolit at 1600 fps. 100 yard zero and 3'' down at 130 yds, a good chest shot will lay them low in short order.