38 special at 357 speeds

[karlrudin]

This question was brought to me from a friend that owns a 357 magnum Colt commander. In light of the fact that he/I cant find any 357 brass, we have been loading his firearm with 38special loads. Which got me to thinking, OH NO! I did some reading on the history of 38special and 357 magnum. The manufacturers were trying to develop higher pressure loads for 38special to help the AirForce and Police. But none got over 22k on pressure due to harming the WEAPON. Now, if the only thing they were worried about was the weapon, not the casing, has anyone heard of loading 38special cases to 357 magnum pressure to be used in a 357 Magnum only. Just a thought and a question. Its bad when I go to thinking. Input encouraged :bigsmyl2:

[scattershot]

I had no idea there was such a thing as a Colt Commander in .357.

i've often wondered the same thing, though. If you loaded the .38 special to the same overall length as the Magnum round, wouldn't it be essentially the same thing?

i'll be following this thread o see what others have to say.

[wantoutofca]

I know a guy who does it with no ill effects in a Ruger, but his loads were developed using a chronograph and quick load. My biggest concern would be accidentally putting those rounds into a 38 and that is more risk than I care to take.

[M-Tecs]

I had no idea there was such a thing as a Colt Commander in .357.




Colt made 357's in the following: Peacemaker, Python, King Cobra, Peacekeeper, Lawman, Boa, and Trooper but never in a Commander.

Commanders are 45acp or 38 Super.

[wv109323]

Your pressures are going to be higher in the .38 case than the .357 case with the same powder charge. There is less space when the powder stays to ignite. It would be like deep seating a bullet in a .357 case.
I would proceed with caution and never use max. .357 loads. Why do you need the .357 velocities?

[karlrudin]

Colt made 357's in Peacemaker, Python, King Cobra, Peacekeeper, Lawman, Boa, and Trooper but never in a Commander.

Commanders are 45acp or 38 Super.

Sorry about the mistake on the Make of the Colt, it was a Trooper. Also, like I said in the beginning, this question came from a friend. Myself, I don't do these things because of the reasons stated and it's not safe. But thanks for the input

[karlrudin]

This person has no concept at ALL of reloading. His concern was that he couldn't find 357 Magnum cases. Not my concern, cause I could find him some, but he is one who likes to do all things himself. These loads wouldn't have been done by me at all. Bad juju.

[Walkingwolf]

I use 38/44 loads in a GP100, it is very capable of handling the loads as they are less, or equal to 357 pressure. The 357 was developed from the 38/44. All of Colt's medium frames were rated for 38/44, which I doubt S&W was fond of since they developed the round for their heavy duty, and outdoorsman revolvers. Smith responded by working with ammo manufacturers to develop the 357.

Any Colt 357 should easily handle the same pressures in 38/44 as 357.

[karlrudin]

I also understand the hazard of someone putting the wrong cartridge into the wrong weapon. In this case it could be hazardous or deadly. All of my cases for my 7-08Remington are made up from 308Winchester brass. And since I also have a 308Winchester in the house, I marked the bottoms of all my 7-08 cases with dye. Easy to see and not mistake.

[M-Tecs]

These have the info you are looking for:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?53508-38-44-data

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?221939-38-44-loads

[clum553946]

There always seems to be 357 brass readily available. Just cruise our "Swap & Sell" forum!

[Lead Fred]

Yup one guy is selling 600 of them.

Using 800x powder the most you can load for a 38 is 5.5 grs. For +P+ 6.0 grs. Blackhawk owners can go up to 7.0 grs.
But they more recoil, than I care to deal with.


I have 400 38 cases, and 150 357 cases. I use the 38s for shooting.
The 357 cases loaded for bear. With AA#7

[StrawHat]

The idea of using 38 Special brass to create magnum ballistics is an old one, dating back to when S&W developed the 38/44 high velocity loads for use in the "N" frame 38 Special revolver. At that time, the goal was to create a revolver that answered the Colt 38 Super. Later, after 1935, handloaders wanted magnum ballistics for their 357s but were unable to locate the scarce-at-the-time Magnum brass. The Lyman 358156 boolit was designed by Ray Thompson with two crimping grooves. If one loaded that boolit in a 38 Special case and crimped in the lower groove, the internal capacity was about what a Magnum case would have been with the bullet loaded in the top groove. Skeeter Skelton was able to load this boolit with 2400 powder and get velocities approaching 1200 fps. I have also used this load, in a S&W M27-2, and got similar velocities and accuracy approaching wadcutter loads. These loads are appropriate for these revolvers as specified by Skelton, "... I emphasize that these heavy .38 Special cartridges should only be fired from .357 Magnum revolvers or from .45 frame .38 Special sixguns such as the Colt SA, Colt New Service, or S&W .38-44. While I have fired this round from K-frame Smith & Wessons and Colt Officers’ Models on occasion with no visible ill effects, these lighter revolvers were not designed for such heavy loads, and I definitely do not recommend the practice... "

I still have a box or two of these loaded and ready to go but rarely, if ever, use a 357 anymore. Can it be done, sure, but you need to have a good source of data.

Kevin

[bruce drake]

Walkingwolf pointed you in the right direction and then others followed up with more data. loaded to 38/44 capabilities and your friend won't even notice a difference between the 357 loads and the reloads. Me, I'm confidant enough to know that my 357 loaded with 38 special cases stoked with 200gr bullets will knock a bad guy down. Now against a bear... I would use 180gr hollowpoints in actual 357 cases, but since there are no recorded bears in Indiana... I'm not worried about that.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think it has all been stated on this thread but I'll chime in.
Can it be done? YES.
Should it be done? No.

The danger is that once you produce that round there is no way to differentiate a super hot 38 Special from a regular 38 Special.
No matter how careful you are there is a substantial risk of one of those cartridges ending up in the wrong firearm. The risk is NOT worth it in my mind.


In addition, you can't just substitute .357 magnum data and use the smaller capacity of the 38 Special casing.

In the category of "let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone"; allow me to confess to loading 38 Special cartridges to near .357 mag levels and shooting them in .357 magnum guns. Yes one can do it but one should NOT do it.
I will never do that again. I got lucky and didn't lose track of the cartridges. I was very careful but I came to believe the risk was just too much. You have a responsibility as a handloader and you should never knowingly assemble an overpressure cartridge. If you accidentally make questionable rounds, that's why they make bullet pullers.


BTW, I have a Colt Trooper and it is a very strong .357 magnum but it will shoot 38 Special cartridges beautifully [smilie=s:

[NSB]

Anyone who says he can't find any 357 brass is just too lazy to look for it. It's on here for sale all the time and it's been for sale very frequently at many of the sellers of reloading components. It just seems hard to believe he tried to find any and couldn't. As far as using 38 cases loaded "hot", that's not the best idea if you don't know much about it to begin with. He could always try to buy some loaded ammo and save the cases.

[NavyVet1959]

The only .38 special I have is an old one that was my grandfather's and I don't shoot it anymore, so I'm not concerned with mixing up normal .38 special and .38 special brass loaded to .357 mag pressures. If you look at the SAAMI specs for the .38 special and .357 mag, you will see that the OAL is virtually the same -- the bullet is just seated deeper in the .357 mag. As such, it would definitely be possible for one of the .357 level .38s that was loaded long to physically fit in an actual .38 special, so you need to have procedures in place to minimize this. Now, if you are using a compressed load that starts with a case full of powder in the .357, you might not be able to do that same load with .38 brass. I have around 1000 pieces of .357 brass, so I don't need to load .38 brass to .357 level, but I would not have any qualms about doing it if all I had was .38 brass. As it is, I use the .38 brass for very low powered loads (around 500-600 fps) for shooting pests like armadillos and 'possums that come around the house. It's a really quiet loading and doesn't draw the attention of the neighbors.

[opos]

I don't even load +P 38 special loads in "regular" 38 special brass (the brass is the same dimension but is head stamped if +P)...I shoot things like GP100's and 686's so not an issue but I also have a few old things like RG's that a +P could really damage or even blow up...I'd hate like the dickens to have someone grab a hot +P when my time comes and there is an estate sale..and put it into an RG31 snub...got a feeling it might suddenly become parts.

When I want 357 velocity I load 357 brass and no, it's not scarce...it's available all the time..and shoot it in a well designed and well maintained 357 magnum revolver.

Why put a "hemi" in a Yugo?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'd say not the maximum .357 loads, but if your bullet isn't unduly heavy (to encroach on the powder space), you should be able to equal some common .357 loads. That doesn't make it a good idea, though. They really must be fired only in a genuine .357 revolver, and losing just one loaded round on the range could leave you with a heavy responsibility.

[Walkingwolf]

Just my opinion, but NOBODY should be using ammo that they did not load themselves, or buy factory from a responsible dealer. All my 38/44 loads are loaded with a red bullet, and in marked boxes. If some fool decides, while clearly knowing they are not factory, pick up one of my rounds the responsibility is on the fool. Cartridges bought at estate sales should be fired, IMO, bullets pulled then loaded again to your specs. I would never use ammo I had no knowledge of the history. NEVER!

[9.3X62AL]

I got a bad thought when the OP mentioned "Commander" Colt revolver in 38 Special or 357 Magnum caliber. My grandmother carried a Colt Commando Model 4" 38 Special as her duty sidearm while working at Norton AFB during WWII. It was a less dressy version of the official Police assembled during wartime. We don't fire it with +P ammo. A CLOSE CAREFUL LOOK at all descriptors of a Colt revolver is a good idea.

[Outpost75]

While the Colt Trooper is a sturdy revolver, I would not attempt to exceed +P .38 Special loads without benefit of pressure testing. Computer predictions are helpful, but not 100% reliable. Slightly exceeding +P standards in a .357 revolver is well within its design limits, but to exceed proof pressure for the .38 Soecial is foolhardy.

[M-Tecs]

And that is why 38/44 loads are recommended.

[Char-Gar]

I think it has all been stated on this thread but I'll chime in.
Can it be done? YES.
Should it be done? No.


That about says it for me as well!

[Char-Gar]

When these kinds of questions come up, there is always a nagging question in my mind to wit; Just what do you want to kill that requires that level of power? Why does a fellow want to jack up the pressures by these kinds of machinations?

I was young a foolish once myself and pushed all rifles and handguns to the pressure red line and sometimes beyond. My mentor told me: "If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer!" I was only 19 at the time, but I took him seriously and still do.

If a regular pressure 38 Special is not enough to do the job, then get a 357 Magnum and use 357 Magnum cases. If a 357 Magnum at regular pressure won't get it done, then get a 44 Magnum. Well you can intuit the rest of this.

[Uncle Jimbo]

I think it has all been stated on this thread but I'll chime in.
Can it be done? YES.
Should it be done? No.

I have to agree with statement also. And the reason the OP stated about not being able to find 357 cases is just a lame excuse. 357s are everywhere. And if used one can't be found, there is a sporting goods store that will sell you new loads ones. Buy a couple of boxes and go shoot them and then you will have your own 1x fired cases.
Leave the 38 spl for a recommended 38 loads.

[Blackwater]

Doc 1, that you would ask is good, but it also indicates that you probably have no business yet in doing what you cite. You really need to learn a good bit more before venturing into that world, but if you're determined to, take MTec and Straw Hat's advice to heart STONGLY! One CAN blow up a very nice gun by trying wild ideas indiscriminately. The principles involved here are that a given powder charge will provide more pressure when confined to a smaller space. Thus, a charge that is OK for .357 would be WAY too much in a shorter .38 case with the same bullet. Even when shooting the same wt. bullet, you have to take into consideration how deeply the bullet sits in the case, thus determining the space the powder has to work in. The smaller that space is, the higher the pressure will be, all else being the same. When trying to make up loads in .38 cases to .357 specs, which is exactly how the .357 was originally developed when Phil Sharpe and others began experimenting to see what they could do in the heavier framed guns, you CAN wind up stacking factors like bullet seating depth and crimp and other factors and wind up WAY over pressure when that same load with a slightly different design of bullet is used, so it's NOT all just simply load data, but specific loads with specific bullets that are to be your guiding light with such efforts.

Try googling the info you want re ".38/44 loads," and be VERY careful in working UP to the maximums listed. If you know how to "read" your specific brand of primers well, that can also be a help at times, but modern primers don't show much flattening unless and until you get to the high maximum range, and that's not helpful at all in most applications. When you've reached that point, you're probably well over maximum pressures the cases and guns will stand with most loads and calibers. That's why sticking to good data in high performance loads is so crucial.

[MtGun44]

Can't find .357 Mag brass? Not a serious search.

[NavyVet1959]

Unless you are crimping a case into the crimp groove of a single crimp groove bullet, it really doesn't matter to the .357 firearm whether you are using .38 or .357 brass. All it will care about is the pressure (which is indirectly defined by the OAL). The SAAMI OAL for .38 special is 1.55" whereas for .357 magnum, it is 1.59". So, 0.04" difference in OAL between .38 special and .357 magnum.

Now, the difference in case lengths(1.155" vs 1.29") of the two rounds is quite a bit more at 0.135", but this just means that the bullet sticks out of the case quite a bit more with the .38 special vs the .357. Of course, not every load uses the full SAAMI maximum OAL. Looking on the Hodgedon reloading site, I see .38 special loads that have an OAL as low as 1.160" which makes it just barely stick above the mouth of the brass. On that site, the maximum OAL that they used on any of their .38 recipes was 1.475".

Interestingly, Hodgedon had some recipes for .357 magnum that had an OAL *greater than* the SAAMI max OAL. They had an OAL of 1.620", so they were 0.03" over the SAAMI max OAL.

On a side note, the 9x19 and the .357 magnum both have the same maximum SAAMI pressure of 35K psi. So, you *could* duplicate 9mm loads in a .357 handgun (either with .357 brass or .38 brass) by loading rather deeply (i.e. below the case mouth). You might need a bit smaller diameter seater head on your seater die though. Personally, I don't see much need for this and I prefer to have enough of the bullet sticking out that I can pull the bullet if need be.

[StrawHat]

Look at some of the recipes used by Keith, Skelton, Jordan or Thompson and you will find ample loads to take the 38 Special into 357 territory that will be safe if fired in your Trooper.

Kevin

[Doc1]

There are all kinds of really good reasons not to load .38 Spl. cases to .357 pressures and all kinds of really bad reasons why it's a dangerous, bad practice. This thread has explained most of them so I won't reiterate them, but I will say just one thing: I would not trust the reloading judgement of a shooter who says he cannot find .357 brass. It's one of he most commonly available handgun rounds in the United States and even if he can't find empty brass, surely he can break out the wallet to buy a box of factory .357 cartridges to get his first fifty cases, right?

Reloading is often about economy, but there is "smart" economy and "dumb" economy. Using .38 Spl. cases to achieve .357 pressures falls into the categories of both dumb and dangerous. At the Doc1 Homestead, we shoot - amongst other calibers - both .38 Spl. and .357 and the chances of mixing up ammo would be a real and dangerous possibility. Even if we only shot .357, the chance of a stray "hot" cartridge somehow winding up in some innocent's .38 is too much of a risk to even think about loading anything like that. To the categories of dumb and dangerous, let's add irresponsible, too.

Bad juju, my friend and I suggest you disabuse your friend of this very bad idea immediately.

Best regards
Doc

[StrawHat]

] ...Now, if the only thing they were worried about was the weapon, not the casing, has anyone heard of loading 38special cases to 357 magnum pressure to be used in a 357 Magnum only... [/COLOR]

This is the original question. I do not see that the poster was asking for recipes or asking about "what if's". It seems as if open thinking is being forced out of this country and we are becoming a country of "American'ts" not Americans. As I stated, I have loaded such cartridges and still have some. I have not shot the 357 in probably 4 decades but still have a box of 358156s so loaded for the only M27-2 I have. Is there a chance that one of these will end up in a 38 Special? Maybe, but not while I am alive. There is also a chance I will get hit by a meteor but I still go outside and live my life.

I appreciate a good discussion but the condemnation of an idea, because of someones fear of a possible outcome, is a very poor way of allowing ideas to bear fruit.

Kevin

[salvadore]

I tend to agree with the safety first crowd, mostly, if you can't keep
track of your reloads you shouldn't use high pressure in 38 cases. It's not rocket surgery keeping them apart.I doubt, given the option, that I
would trade my 38 cases for 357s even Steven, I like using Elmer's
crimp groove and both of the high octane loads are a lot more
accurate than me.....I?.....