Some Info On 7.65 Argentine Bullet Diameters

[leadman]

I bought the book on Argentine Mausers written by Colin Webster and found some information on the diameter of the different bullets loaded in the Argentine ammo.
The original bullet for the 1891 was a round nose that had a diameter of .3110".
The 1891 bullet was changed to a spitzer and was of harder materials than the round nose. Diameter was .3125"
The 1909 used a spitzer bullet that was ..3129".
I am trying to determine from the copied documents if there was a change in the groove diameter in the barrels. For the 1891 it appears that the only thing changed was the rear sight leaf. Could it be the softer bullet was designed to Bump Up like many of the old black powder rifles did? The 1891 was their first smokeless rifle from what I can tell.


Also read that when the contracted for Mauser to make the rifles there were 3 spare barrels included for each rifle. Now I know why NOS barrels are available on a limited basis.

I was always told that some of the 1909 Arg. Mausers were rechambered for the 30-06. The book references a purchase done for a limited number (5000) that were ordered chambered for a 7.65X63 cartridge sometime around 1912 to 1915. These were competition rifles.

[azrednek]

I was always told that some of the 1909 Arg. Mausers were rechambered for the 30-06. The book references a purchase done for a limited number (5000) that were ordered chambered for a 7.65X63 cartridge sometime around 1912 to 1915. These were competition rifles.

In the 70's I had a 30/06 chambered Argie 09. It was my understanding that the conversion was done by the US importer to increase its salability. If I remember right PO Ackley wrote in length about the 09 Argie 06 conversion in his monthly Guns N Ammo column. At the time there was still plenty of dirt cheap WW2 surplus 06 ammo available.

My 06 Argie's accuracy was mediocre at best but well within minute of deer. After getting into hand loading and using .311 jacketed bullets the accuracy was greatly enhanced. I parted company with the rifle long before I got into casting so I never thought of slugging the bore.

You mentioning the possible change in the 91's sight blade. It may have something to do with my Model 91 Peru variation using a Gew 98 type rear sight.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-4.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/peru-4.jpg.html)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-1a.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/peru-1a.jpg.html)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-1.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/peru-1.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

leadman

Thanks much for the info. That probably explains the variation in groove diameters in M91s and M1909s we are finding. Since our last discussion I picked up a 15 rd pack of SF 80 and found the bullets in those is .3128 - .3129. I'm awaiting a bit cooler weather to velocity and pressure test that milsurp ammo.

Larry Gibson

[Hardcast416taylor]

A friend of mine had an DWM `09 Argie chambered in 30-06 customised back in the mid 1980`s. I developed jacketed bullet loads for it and to say it was very accurate would be an under statement. He could put 3 shots of my Nosler BT loads into the same clover leaf group at 250 yds all the time from a bench rest.Robert

[Scharfschuetze]

Just to add some clarity to the mud surrounding Argentine bore diameters, I have two 1891 Mausers (Löwe) made within a year or two of each other. One slugs out at .3115 and the other at .3135 give or take a ten thousandths or so.


to say it was very accurate would be an under statement

Here's 10 shots at 50 yards with the 314299 Lyman boolit over 4759 powder at 1,900 fps. It holds its accuracy at distance on reactive targets too.

[azrednek]

Another consideration for the variance in bore size. My Peruvian 91's bore was arsenal re-lined according to the Shotgun News vendor, Springfield Sporters I bought it from. As you can see from my previous photos. The exterior is heavily pitted but the bore looks like brand new. I've been asked but do not know if the arsenal re-line involved sending it back to Germany or done in Peru. If anybody knows please chime in here.

I always take advantage of discussions on the 91 Argies to mention my mis-hap and to discourage anybody to even consider shooting one without good, with a huge emphasis on "good" safety glasses.

The 91's do not have the vent hole to direct gas from a ruptured cartridge away from the shooters face. While I was fire-forming trimmed 06 brass in my 91. Hot burning gas sneaked by the brass' shoulder, blew right into my face and no exaggeration. Literally fried and destroyed my glass's right lens. Had I not had shooting glasses on. I'm sure my right shooting eye would have been permanently damaged.

It should apply to all shooting but please be extra cautious shooting a 91 Mauser. Do not even think about it without eye protection.

[leadman]

The change in the 91s rear sight blades was because of the differences in the trajectory of the 200 gr plus round nose to the lighter "S" spitzer bullet. There was also a change in barrel steels used for the various contracts and I wonder if this also played into bore differences.
There were several contracts for the 1891s. The book does note that Argentine had a lock on the selling of guns by Mauser to other South American countries for some time. Argentina did sell guns to these countries that were new and a mention that surplus 1891s could have been sold after the 1909 replaced it.
The Peruvian 1891s are mentioned in the book but there is so much info that it is going to take me some time to sort it out.

Also interesting is the pressure figures for the cartridges for the 1891 and 1909 as they are the same or very close. They list the pressure in atmospheres.

azredneck, been thinking of adding a hole in the side of my receivers just for this reason. The early 1891s also did not have the "wings" on the bolt shroud to help deflect the gases. I have an "A" series 1891 that has this bolt shroud.

[azrednek]

Leadman I read in another group that gunsmiths refuse to drill the hole due to possible liability. Not a problem though doing it yourself.

About 20+ years ago friend of mine ordered some Argentine mfg soft tip sporting 765 ammo. Pretty sure it was sold by Century Arms or whomever it was that regularly had the back page of Shotgun News. On the box in Spanish there was a warning discouraging the ammo's use in pre-1909 (or maybe it was pre-98) rifles. Don't know if the warning was due to the ammo being loaded to higher pressures or the manufacture was worried about the poor condition of many 91's. My friend and I both shot plenty of the sporting ammo in our 91's without a problem.

[EDG]

I don't think any Mauser type really protects your from a ruptured case head.
By design the the bolt guide race ways direct gas at your face. One of the owners of Schultz and Larsen posts on another site and it was his opinion from testing that the Mauser type basically has a designed in defect that directs gas at your face. His opinion was the fat bolt designs like Weatherby MK V and others were much safer because they do not have the bolt lug race ways.

I have seen a ruptured case in an M98 and it made a mess of the rifle and and the guy's face. Glasses saved his eyes. He probably had 30 to 50 tiny punctures in his face from flying debris.
I suspect that if the 1891 had a full flange around the case head it might have been safer than a M98.
I have blown 2 primers in an 1891 with no adverse effect other than a couple of ruined cases.
Would I recommend that you shoot without glasses? - Not at all.
But don't believe for a minute that an M98 will protect you either.


Another consideration for the variance in bore size. My Peruvian 91's bore was arsenal re-lined according to the Shotgun News vendor, Springfield Sporters I bought it from. As you can see from my previous photos. The exterior is heavily pitted but the bore looks like brand new. I've been asked but do not know if the arsenal re-line involved sending it back to Germany or done in Peru. If anybody knows please chime in here.

I always take advantage of discussions on the 91 Argies to mention my mis-hap and to discourage anybody to even consider shooting one without good, with a huge emphasis on "good" safety glasses.

The 91's do not have the vent hole to direct gas from a ruptured cartridge away from the shooters face. While I was fire-forming trimmed 06 brass in my 91. Hot burning gas sneaked by the brass' shoulder, blew right into my face and no exaggeration. Literally fried and destroyed my glass's right lens. Had I not had shooting glasses on. I'm sure my right shooting eye would have been permanently damaged.

It should apply to all shooting but please be extra cautious shooting a 91 Mauser. Do not even think about it without eye protection.

[enfield]

314299

[EDG]

Larry
I have some of that ammo. I pulled a couple of bullets and the bullet bases were badly corroded.
You might check a few of yours before you shoot them in a nice rifle.


leadman

Thanks much for the info. That probably explains the variation in groove diameters in M91s and M1909s we are finding. Since our last discussion I picked up a 15 rd pack of SF 80 and found the bullets in those is .3128 - .3129. I'm awaiting a bit cooler weather to velocity and pressure test that milsurp ammo.

Larry Gibson

[azrednek]

I suspect that if the 1891 had a full flange around the case head it might have been safer than a M98.
I have blown 2 primers in an 1891 with no adverse effect other than a couple of ruined cases.
Would I recommend that you shoot without glasses? - Not at all.
But don't believe for a minute that an M98 will protect you either.

I had some problems with punctured primers on my Peruvian 91. A gunsmith worked on the firing pin's depth and cured it. Been plenty of years but I don't recall any problems related to the punctured primers. Best I recall the punctured primers were all hand loaded ammo, don't think I had any with mil-surp ammo.

I've never had a ruptured cartridge on a 98 Mauser but have had two I recall with an 03 Springfield. One incident I was shooting from the ground and my brother was standing. Brother said he saw fire and smoke blow out the side. I had some black soot on my face but no burns.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry
I have some of that ammo. I pulled a couple of bullets and the bullet bases were badly corroded.
You might check a few of yours before you shoot them in a nice rifle.

Had the same problem. Pulled them all and save the powder from the non corroded. Reloaded them with the same charge for the testing. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

Larry Gibson

[Frank46]

There is another thread like this on gunboards.com in the handloading section, you may or may not have to scroll down to find it. Frank

[Multigunner]

I had an old 7.65x53 Military cartridge years ago and pulled the bullet to check the diameter. This particular bullet was odd. The diameter in front of the crimp groove was .312, behind the groove it miked .313, and at the base it miked .314. Don't know if that was intended by design or if some manufacturing process deformed the bullet during the seating or crimping operation.

[leadman]

Multigunner, that was the way some of the bullets were made. IIRC I read that the A thru C guns of the first contract would have had the smaller diameter bores. The second contract I believe had the 3 extra barrels for each gun. The A series guns originally had a bolt shroud that had no "wings" on it to block any debris or gas coming down the bolt raceways.
I have an A series and it has the smooth shroud and no magazine lock at the front of the mag. Too bad the barrel and stock were already cut but I only paid $80 for it with 50 surplus FN cartridges in a plastic box.
The Argentines did keep the 1891 and 1909 ammo seperate even though the pressures were the same due to the bullets and the rear sights on the guns. The trajectory was different so sight settings were different. Some of the 1891s did get a different rear sight installed on them, some didn't.
The Argentine's also made some short rifles out of long rifles toward end of the 1891 usage.