ATF in engine oil

[Jonesy]

Long story short, I've got a 1996 Saturn with 260,000 miles on it. I cracked open the valve cover around 250,000 miles and it was surprisingly clean. I've been thinking about adding some type of detergent to the oil to help remove any deposits in the lower end that may be lurking. I haven't cracked the bottom end at all so I really don't know what may be lurking in there.
My friends and family swear by adding ATF in just before an oil change, but with such high mileage I'm not sure what to expect. I don't want to dislodge a big chunk and send it into the bowels of the engine. Anyone ever tried it on something with high mileage?
I'm not sure I really want to add anything at all, any advice would be appreciated. The car runs like a champ as is so I may just leave well enough alone.

[waksupi]

Techron gas treatment cleaned my engine better than anything else I tried, and increased my mileage by a good bit.

[garym1a2]

If its clean at 260k why change your routine?

[DLCTEX]

Gary beat me to it. Don't argue with success!

[SeabeeMan]

The dislodging a chunk is the same reason I've always avoided (and been told to avoid) transmission flushes. I would just keep going they way you have been.

On a side note, we added lots of ATF to JP-5 in the HMMWV's back in the day when we ran convoy escort. The JP-5 had no lubrication and we would go through multiple fuels pumps a week between the 6 gun trucks. Adding a good "glug" of ATF to the tank when fueling made it so we only had to switch one or two fuel pumps a week.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

a majority of motor oils now have detergent in them if they don't say NON-DETERGENT on the label chances are they have detergent and why your valve cover was surprisingly clean , I wouldn't mess with it

[Uncle Jimbo]

After you do this, the engine will start to burn oil at a rapid rate. The ATF will clean all the carbon from behind the rings and the rings will lose tension because they are worn. The carbon behind them acts like a spacer and helps keep the rings with tension and from collapsing.
But this is just my opinion.

[bob208]

engines gunk up from the top down. so if the top end is clean leave it alone. atf is made for transmissions not engines. if you change the oil and filter when they are suppose to be and don't use Quaker state you will be fine.

[too many things]

would not do to a gas engine but we add it to older diesel as the new **** don't have the lubes in it.

if its worked this long don't mess with it

[runfiverun]

well your getting close to the point I finally sent my 65 Newport to the scrap heap. [290-k]
I always poured a quart of atf in the oil a week or so before an oil change.
the engine still rang strong except for valves needing seats for the unleaded gas.
the rest of the car was pretty much falling apart around it.
I also done it to my 98 chev pick-up which I finally traded in at well over 200-k [and still miss]

I don't add atf in any of my new cars, the oil is thin enough for it to not be of help.

[bhn22]

At 250K, I wouldn't change anything now. Just continue on your oil change schedule as before and keep going as long as possible.

[Outpost75]

Much safer to add Lucas Oil top cylinder lubricant to your fuel. An over-dose will not hurt the engine, just smoke a bit. I add 2 oz. per ten gals of fuel to all my high mileage vehicles, both gas and diesel. Sea Foam is another good product, but keep ATF out of the engine if you plan on driving it over 200,000 miles.

[Jonesy]

I've sea foamed this baby when it hit 200,000 and man oh man, did some stuff come out that tailpipe. The only parts I've ever replaced are a starter motor, a few gaskets and hoses, and most recently an EGR valve. Other than that, she's complete as she was from the factory. I wasn't entirely sure where sludge begins, I assumed toward the bottom as gravity may have some effect on pulling it down to the oil pan.
It's the ugliest thing on the road, the paint is nearly fallen off the thing altogether, but it's the best car I've ever had. My wife had a '94 with well over 300,000 miles before we scrapped it. Can't beat those mid 90's Saturns when it comes to reliability. I think I'll take the easy route and leave it alone, just change the oil.
Thanks everyone!

[leadman]

I would not change anything at this point as it may cause you problems.

Rich, when I worked for the City Of Phoenix as a Shop Foreman the City Council decided JP5 would be a cleaner fuel for our diesels. No end to the fuel leak problem, especially in the Ford ambulances. We also added ATF to the fuel so the pumps would live awhile. This was before low sulphur diesel.

[fecmech]

engines gunk up from the top down. so if the top end is clean leave it alone.
A big +1

[Mytmousemalibu]

Unless it has been a problem child I would let'er be. You run the risk of causing more trouble than good! I've worked on cars all my life and the addage of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", is real sound advise!

Now if you bought the car used and it was gunked up to high heaven, that is another story. My 03' Chevy Crapalier was this way, I don't think anyone knew it had an oil filter. It started to make a nasty rattle which was the timing chain slapping the case because the chain tensioner was so cruddy it had stuck and let the chain go slack. A new tensioner and a regiment of short oil changes with a high detergent oil will help but adding anything that will really dissolve the crud risks plugging something up. I was a BMW master tech before I retired automotive work. BMW for a long time had a 15,000 mile oil service schedule which is way too much. On cars that were treated to this and followed the factory service to a tee, the engines were terribly sludged up inside. We were able to clean many up to a large degree with a short interval/high detergent oil service. Only engines that were close to the scrap heap did we try flushing them. We used 20w50 with about a quart of diesel fuel added to the oil as it dissolves deposits really well. This was only run this way at idle/parked and let get good and hot and run for a while longer, pulled back in the shop, changed the oil and filter again, drive a short while, check filter, drive more, change both again. Then sent home with a good high detergent non-syn oil and placed on a short interval service for a while. Saved quite a few folks from buying engines. My LB7 engine'd Duramax has pop'ed a few injectors before which it released diesel into the oil since they mount under the valve cover, that is the cleanest, most spotless engine inside that I have ever seen, let alone it being a diesel. It has 170,000mls on it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've sea foamed this baby when it hit 200,000 and man oh man, did some stuff come out that tailpipe.
...snip
I'd recommend Seafoam in the crankcase.
http://seafoamsales.com/using-in-crankcase-oil/

I assume you put seafoam into the upper engine via the vacuum system ? or directly into the fuel injection ?

A long time ago, Paul Brand, of Minnesota talk radio fame, KSTP 1500's "Auto talk" use to recommend the Seafoam tuneup(once a year?) 1/3 of a can into the gas tank, 1/3 of the can into the crankcase, and 1/3 of a can sucked into the upper engine via the vacuum system(or in the carb on a carb type fuel delivery system). Of course Seafoam was a sponsor of his show :)

[goodolejim]

DON"T DO IT !!! A few years ago I decided to give my Datsun which used no oil between oil changes a treat at 175000 mile. Switched to full synthetic oil. It started smoking to the point ten days later I pulled the engine for a rebuild. In case anyone missed the point , DONT MESS WITH SUCCESS!

[Jonesy]

Yeah Jon, I used 1/3 in the oil, gas, and vacuum line each. Smoked like hell but seriously improved idle and felt like it restored a bit of power. That junk really does work, at least in the piston side of things. Pulling a plug before and after you can really see the difference it makes on the piston's head surface. I threw it in through the PCV line just behind the intake slowly until the last bit where I threw the line into the fluid to stall the motor out. After it sat, I blew clouds around the entire neighborhood.

There's no look that you get from the neighbors quite like the one you get after seafoaming an old engine.

[Frank46]

Kinda reminds me of one old timer at work when he did an oil change. He'd dump the old oil and leave the old filter in place then fill the engine with Mobil DTE light which is a steam turbine oil and what we used in all of our steam and electric driven fuel oil pumps. After filling the engine with this oil (5 quarts) he'd start it up and let it sit until it got warm then shut it down. Then dumped the oil and filter. The amount of crud that came out was astounding. then he just put in a new filter and regular motor oil. Drove that car for years and still had it when he retired. Frank

[TXGunNut]

ATF in the engine crankcase is an old-school fix for old-school engines. You've gotten more mileage from that motor than most old motors could dream of so keep doing what you're doing.

[MaryB]

I got a Chevy Citation from my little brother(who is NOT mechanically inclined) that had broken the timing chain gear. I took the valve cover off and it looked like it was still on there it was so gunked up. I replaced the timing gears, added a new chain, got it running, then dumped pure diesel into the crankcase and ran it for a few minutes. Drained it and it looked like syrup coming out. Repeated this 4 times until it ran clear. Then added oil and new filter and proceeded to put another 120k miles on it. Finally got rid of it when the hood rusted out so bad the bungy cords that kept it shut had nothing to hook on in front. The latch had rusted off before I got it. First time riders always freaked when I passed a semi going the other way and the hood jumped up a couple inches then slammed back down.

And yes, I drove a lot of rolling wrecks, my idea of a car was cheap, long as it ran and started when I needed it I beat it into the ground. My GMC Jimmy finally got retired when the rust over the back wheels got to the fiberglass top and it started tearing off. And the floor was so rusted the 2x12 under the seat wasn't working anymore... surprised that one never fell off the frame it was so rotted out. It made it well over 360k miles(that is when the odometer quit, drove it 3 more years commuting 60 miles a day for work)...

[725]

First thought, as many here, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Your current maintenance routine seems to be working fine. As I acquired junkers over the years, those with dirty oil usually got a quart of kerosene in the oil and let to run for 5 minutes before the oil change. Amazing stuff came out. Fresh oil and filter and I was always good to go.

[Outpost75]

I'd recommend Seafoam in the crankcase. http://seafoamsales.com/using-in-crankcase-oil/

.....A long time ago, Paul Brand, of "Auto talk" used to recommend the Seafoam tuneup (once a year?) [YES!] 1/3 of a can into the gas tank, 1/3 of the can into the crankcase, and 1/3 of a can sucked into the upper engine via the vacuum system(or in the carb on a carb type fuel delivery system). Of course Seafoam was a sponsor of his show :)

My late father was a great believer in Sea Foam used in this manner, as his employer used it in all of their fleet vehicles, and even after the trucks (these were Ford "cornbinder" 1 ton Diesel pickups) were rotated out of service and auctioned off, employees who bought them ran them for years (we ran two of them at home).

[waksupi]

ATF in the engine crankcase is an old-school fix for old-school engines. You've gotten more mileage from that motor than most old motors could dream of so keep doing what you're doing.

Very true. When I was young, if you got 120,000 miles from an engine that was about average. Now it's not unusual for a vehicle to go a half million miles with proper maintenance.

[leadman]

I have rebuilt many engines of different styles since I was about 10 years old, I'm 63 now. The old engines in autos did not last near as long as the new ones. Started at Cummins Diesel just out of high school at 17 years old.
The blocks were soft cast iron versus cast steel now. Was not unusual to have to bore the block .060" or more. Most of the old Chrysler slant 6 engines got bored to .120". Cranks were soft also.
I had an 88 Dakota v6 long bed 4X4 that I bought used. Had been a Federal agency vehicle and had almost 200K on it when I bought it. After almost another 100K I pulled it down and the cylinders and crank were still in spec!
Better fuel control has also helped the engines last longer.

[Harter66]

I can't speak to all of the washing saving a motor. I did tear down an older Chevy 305 that had belonged to a loyal quaker state jiffy lube guy ,every 5k or 6 months no matter if it sat in the garage or ran marathon hi way loops ...... the rocker cover gaskets were cooked but didn't leak a drop . That was because the only room for anything inside them was where the rockers ,push rods and valve springs actually moved and a run channel to the oil return holes the valley was gunked up almost as bad with a softer but still hard sludge. The pan had sling lines in it with sludge lumps in between them. It was disgusting in a 185k engine . I took apart a Pennzoil engine at 202k that wasn't a lot better but at least it was all soft sludge .

So far I've gotten away with 7500 mile oil changes to 230,000+ miles, usually that's where the rear ends or transmission give up, running Valvoline and Castrol. As a qualifier here I idle a half mile downhill against the gears then up to hi way speed 15 miles then idle 1-3 miles and either park or run another 30-70 miles at hi way speeds as a rule . They all get a pint of STP with every oil and filter change when they hit a 125 k . I've never had a gunked up rocker cover or valley, and the parts when something does have to be taken down are so slick you can't can't hold them solid and just sticky enough to stay put.

+1 don't mess with what's working. If it makes you feel better pour some gas or diesel through just to wash out loose film or any particulate,but I wouldn't run it in there .

[N4AUD]

My Daddy always told me- "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

[Jonesy]

My little beater passed the California smog today, amazingly. Was at the maximum allowable for the hydrocarbons, but not over. I just changed out the oil and dumped a quart through with the system open to flush any old gunk out like I always do. I wouldn't really be surprised if I can get near the 400K mark on the motor with the way it runs right now. I doubt the rest of the car will make it that far, but the motor just might.

[osteodoc08]

Don't do it. You'll regret it in short order.

If the top end looks good, keep up with oil changes and keep turning the miles. Those saturn cars were known to last a long time. My CPA had one with close to 250k miles when he had someone pull out in front of him and ended up totaling it with plenty of life left in it.

[jcwit]

To the OP. You need to do a long and careful study on this forum.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

[doc1876]

Harter66, I have heard this more than once from Quaker guys.

Jonesy, I think you got the right idea, don't mess with it. I usually do run atf in my engine ever 40k or so, but I would be real hesitant to try it at 200k! (Yea, Old school is in session around here)
By the way, that seafoam in the gas is the best thing you can do for it. I tried Cheveron, and lost 5 mpg, and never got it back. Never again ever!

[DougGuy]

DO NOT put anything in that old motor to "clean" it! Stuff finds a place and stays put, and there is NO HARM WHATSOEVER in this! Sludge, varnish, all this stuff actually serves a good purpose. As mentioned earlier, varnish built up in the ring grooves will actually make the grooves smaller and narrower, the rings will seal MUCH BETTER because of that! Varnish on the sides of a piston skirt make it fit in the bore better, plus it keeps oil on the sides of the piston. A piston with a wet oily matrix on the skirt is a long-wearing piston! I could go on but I won't, you get the point I am sure..


Chevy 305 that had belonged to a loyal quaker state jiffy lube guy ,every 5k or 6 months no matter if it sat in the garage or ran marathon hi way loops ...... the rocker cover gaskets were cooked but didn't leak a drop . That was because the only room for anything inside them was where the rockers ,push rods and valve springs actually moved and a run channel to the oil return holes the valley was gunked up almost as bad with a softer but still hard sludge. The pan had sling lines in it with sludge lumps in between them. It was disgusting in a 185k engine . I took apart a Pennzoil engine at 202k that wasn't a lot better but at least it was all soft sludge .

^^^^ Quaker State, Pennzoil, fossil oils, very very thick sludgy buildup, traps a lot of fine particles in this sludge, any diesel fuel, ATF, even high detergent oil will begin to dissolve this sludge, and the dissolved sludge goes right down to the crankcase where it is sucked up by the oil pump and pumped all through the bearings and your motor will start SMOKING like nobody's business in no time. Might as well pour lapping compound in with the oil because any particles of dirt or grit or metal in that sludge starts chewing up those soft main and rod and cam bearing surfaces and becomes imbedded rather quickly, which if you don't put NOTHING in there but new oil and filter, you will save a lot of grief..