Type I Carcano

[bruce drake]

Heaven help me, I stopped by my local gunshop this evening and as I picked a pound of Hodgdon 380 and some Hornady 154gr 7mm bullets for my 7x57 Garand he showed me a Type I Carcano in 6.5 Arisaka. The wood is in fair shape and could use a refinish but the barrel looks good and the crown isn't dinged up. He's asking $199 but I think I might go back in the morning (I came in 30 minutes before closing) and put a deposit down on it. If I get it, all I'll be missing will be the carbine versions of the Type 38 and Type 99 versions for my collection of Arisakas.

I am going to be reading up on the differences of the rifle from the standard Arisakas tonight. It looks like the Italians took the Carcano action and married it with a Mauser magazine and T38 barrel and sights.One question I need to look into is the rifling used on the barrel and what size 6.5 bullet I need to use...either the carcano standard .268 or the modern .264 bullet.

Bruce

[Mk42gunner]

Bruce,

I remember a couple of threads about the Type I a few years ago, you might find them with the new advanced search function. I don't remember which bore/groove diameter they were supposed to have.

Robert

p.s.

Actually, for a fairly rare item to help complete a collection, I don't really see where the bore size matters that much.

R.

[303Guy]

for my 7x57 Garand he showed me a Type I Carcano in 6.5 Arisaka.A 7x57 Garand and a 6.5 Arisaka Carcano? Wow. I like them both already! Would that be sans the gain twist bore I wonder? A T38 barrel would make me think so. Well, I hope you do get it. That 7x57 Garand needs an odd caliber bed mate. Please post photo's as soon as you do and let us know what bore it has.

[JeffinNZ]

He's a whack job Peter. No other way to describe him. :bigsmyl2:

Bruce: If you procure said shootin' iron I highly recommend Al's NOE 269 145. My Carcano FAT 41 shoots it well at 1800fps. My 6.5X52 demands alloy of at least 12 BHN however.

[3006guns]

The Japanese contracted with the Italians to have the type I made......and to this day no one is really sure why. To the best of my knowledge, the type I is a standard Carcano action but fitted with a barrel, sights and stock fitments to Japanese specifications just like an Arisaka. I'm pretty sure the bore is the same as a type 38 and takes the .264 jacketed or .267 cast, with no gain twist rifling.

They're an interesting variant and I'd love to have one for my collection.

[Char-Gar]

The Japanese contracted with the Italians to have the type I made......and to this day no one is really sure why. To the best of my knowledge, the type I is a standard Carcano action but fitted with a barrel, sights and stock fitments to Japanese specifications just like an Arisaka. I'm pretty sure the bore is the same as a type 38 and takes the .264 jacketed or .267 cast, with no gain twist rifling.

They're an interesting variant and I'd love to have one for my collection.

There was a strong rivalry between the Jap Army and Navy. The Army controlled the arsenals that made the rifles and the Navy could not get the numbers they wanted. The Komentern Pact required one Axis nation to buy from other Axis nations. Therefore the Jap Navy contracted with the Italians for the rifles they wanted, hence was produced the Type I (Italian).

The rifles were produced by several firms and taken to mid-ocean where they were transferred to Jap cargo subs for the rest of the trip to Japan. The rifles were actually superior to Jap produced rifles during the war, but were shunned by the Jap officers because they were not Japanese, so very few were issued. After the surrender, American forces found most of them still in crates in wear houses near the docks.

They are are good rifles.

[nekshot]

199.00!!!!! Geeez, you cannot get a gun for that in my area! I love carcano's and all of mine have been highly bubbasized and I am proud of every one! I do desire a really nice carbine in full unmolested dress for collection sake. If I had the means I would by that one in a heart beat.

[bruce drake]

Its on deposit right now. I went back in today and put my mark on it. It will be in the gunsafe by Friday.

Slight problem noted today is that the safety doesn't turn but I'm hoping it will free up once its been disassembled and scrubbed down with cleaning solvent.

standard twist on the barrel no Gain-twist issues to be concerned about with this.

of course, now that the move to the new house is completed, I might actually have the garage and gungear settled by September...

Bruce

[Mk42gunner]

It might even be cool enough to spend time in the garage by September. I'm really not liking 90+ degrees and 90+ percent humidity this year.

Robert

[jrap]

There may be some marks hidden under the barrel if you take the stock off

[bouncer50]

I have a Type 1 that i bought over 30 years ago it in nice shape. Mine has P.B. proof marks. At 75 yards i can get one inch groups.

[jrap]

Theyve been showing up more and more on gunbroker. I think i paid $130 for mine 3 years ago

[bruce drake]

Its in the gunsafe and its a nice one ;) Had a working weekend for the office so I snatched it up on Thursday after work.

I'm still unpacking the ammo and other boxes from the other house but I hope to get to the range sometime this week to shoot it and see how it runs.

Bruce

[Char-Gar]

I have a Type 1 that i bought over 30 years ago it in nice shape. Mine has P.B. proof marks. At 75 yards i can get one inch groups.

Pietro Berretta

[bruce drake]

It has a much tighter chamber than my two T38s. Loads of reformed brass (35 Rem and 220 Swift) along with actual Norma 6.5 Arisaka were fully loading about 50% of the time. The shoulder of the accepted brass is right at the SAMMI measurement for minimal chamber specs. My other T38 still in 6.5 Jap swallowed every cartridge that I had loaded for it previously.

Minus - I'm going to have to check my resizing die setup when I go to reload for this cartridge and ensure that I dedicate brass for this rifle.

Plus - The brass that I do dedicate to this rifle will have a very long life with minimal stretch of the cases due to that tight chamber.

[EDG]

My Type I chambers (3) of them have the same old sloppy chamber as my Type 38.
The chamber does not have a step at the case mouth. There is only a long funnel to the origin of the rifling.
The rifling form is the segmental Metford type with 4 lands and grooves and no sharp corners for a .264 groove dia.

While the case is semi rimmed and some even call it rimmed it could head space on the rim in a couple of places in the Type 38, though it probably should only headspace on the shoulder. In the Type I headspace is on the shoulder.

[bruce drake]

I finally took it completely apart last night. There is some rust on the inside of the buttplate where it may have been stored in a damp corner somewhere (the wooden stock has waterstaining on the butt as well) and a light speckling of rust on the underside of the barrel which I should be able to knock with a copper penny without damaging the bluing. The buttplate will require a more through carding with a bristle brush to remove the rust and properly blue it again.

The rifle is a L prefix serialled rifle and the bolt and action were made by Beretta (PB) while I believe from the markings, the barrel was made in the Terni factory and then mated with the Beretta components in their factory. I have a PB stamp on most of the metal work except the barrel.

I've stripped the finish off the wood last night as well. It had been redone at sometime in the past as the finish just literally came right off when I applied the stripping agent. The two previous Arisakas I've redone, the Japanese shellac that they used was much more difficult to remove than what the Italians used on this Type I. According to a couple of internet sources to include an American Rifleman article from Dec 1971, the wood the Italians used for the stocks was beech. I think that a Golden Oak will be a nice shade to put back on the stock once its completely dry again.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

146391

This is a PDF file of an American Rifleman Magazine Article that I referred to in my last post. A very interesting note is the boxed article on converting an 03A3 to be left-handed...

[303Guy]

Bruce, when might we expect a photograph or two? [smilie=1:

[bruce drake]

I'll see what I can do tonight after the youngest son's karate session.

[bruce drake]

146541 I put three photos from my cell phone together and then compressed the file to meet the forum specs.

First coat of oil back onto the stock after chemically stripping the last coat of solid brown off. It literally looked like a hunk of brown wood with no figure let alone grain when I got it at the store. The bottle of Pumpkin Shandy Beer (first of the year, fall is coming) is for scale of course...

I'll take it back down tomorrow for additional coats of oil on the wood and also a derusting of the metal parts. I have a local gunsmith where I may take it to be reblued since its been reblued once before.

I don't freak about destroying the originality of the rifle as someone else has already done that. I want to "restore" it to functionality and also help tell it's story as an Axis Weapon of War at local rifle matches.

I will post better pictures once I'm done with the restoration.

Bruce

[303Guy]

Thank you. Now I'm jealous! :mrgreen:

It will still be original, just restored a bit. Looking forward to the final results (and range reports).

[bruce drake]

I'm thinking of adding glitter glue and cerakoting it in pink and white now...;)

[Char-Gar]

I used to avoid refinishing beech or birch stocks like the plague due to their difficulty. I want things dark like the original and unless stained these woods will finish light with a yellow cast. Traditional oil stains won't take evenly leaving a splotchy finish. I just would not mess with them until my nephew asked me to refinish an M1 Carbine with such a stock. I did some research and then undertook the job and it came out very well. I have since refinished several more and each turned out find. Here is what I do;

1. Old finish is removed with Formby's Furniture Refinisher which melts off old lacquer and varnish like magic. It won't touch the oil if there is any one the stock nor is it worth a hoot on more modern plastic finishes.

2, Raise the dents, if any and give a light rub with 320 grit paper to take off any whiskers.

3. Apply Minwax Pre-Stain per the directions on the can.

4. Apply an alcohol based stain. I use Fiebing's Medium Brown leather dye. Let it dry and give a brisk rub with 0000 steel wood to remove excess.

5. Apply any kind of finish you like. On military stocks I use good old Boiled Linseed Oil.

Here is a Type I and Uzi stock I refinished. There are some light reflections, but the finish is very smooth and even.

[bruce drake]

Oh yes, this stock has plenty of work ahead of it before it is complete. First coat was just to put some good oil back into the stock after the paint/dark stain was removed. I want to keep the figure in the grain pattern of the beech. Its worth it to me to have it reblued. No Ceracoting in hot Pink...

[JeffinNZ]

I'm thinking of adding glitter glue and cerakoting it in pink and white now...;)

Paint it purple. For the love of God, have a taught you nothing?

[bruce drake]

Jeff,
When I start seeing your rifles wearing a coat of purple, I'll start considering it. Lead, Follow or Get out of the way! If you are going to be the Leader of the Purple Pack, you have to lead by example!

;)

Bruce

[JeffinNZ]

Jeff,
When I start seeing your rifles wearing a coat of purple, I'll start considering it. Lead, Follow or Get out of the way! If you are going to be the Leader of the Purple Pack, you have to lead by example!

;)

Bruce

Be careful what you wish for. :bigsmyl2:

[Maven]

Bruce & Jeff, Purple isn't out of the realm of possibility as I've seen bright yellow, bright green with metal flakes, and candy apple red also with metal flakes on .22BR stocks. Yeah, purple would be nice...even if you have to Photoshop it.:kidding:

[303Guy]

Why not purple? The only thing with purple is what makes it purple - red and blue. The blue is a problem for hunting as deer can see it in the dark even!:confused:

[bruce drake]

I doubt I'd hunt with this rifle. But I do own other rifles in unique colors. My long-range rifle for 600/800/1000 yard matches is painted red and black. The stock is fire-engine red with the POW/MIA flag on the buttstock.

And at one time, I had one of my ARs in Dewalt Yellow and Black...Not to mention the AR-47 (7.62x39 AR upper) was in True-Blue American and Black...And my Olive Green 300BLK (now 30-223) Upper or my 6.5 Grendel is painted red and white as well...

BUT PURPLE?????, I'd have to see Jeff's favorite Carcano or his Custom Martini and its suppressor painted purple first...

;)

[bruce drake]

And I finally get to the range to test this rifle out.

Headspace is good and the rifle is dead-on accurate with no need to tap the front sight. I took her to the range to try her out at the 50 yard line. And I can say I'm happy with the results.

140gr Loverin mold sized at .268 with 9gr of Red Dot to start the testing. I may have to branch back into shooting 6.5x50 with this type of grouping.

[JeffinNZ]

That's a very good start Bruce.

[bruce drake]

Thanks Jeff! I think I'm going to really enjoy this rifle once I get more free time for the range again! I've got a 100gr mold from Tom Mag in April that may be interesting to play with as well in this rifle although the initial results with my 140gr RN mold may be THE mold for this rifle.