Lee wasted my time and my $6. (7.5x54MAS) Feed back needed !!!

[Motor]

Well I got my die and Lee's responce back today. They just told me what I already knew.

I agree their die does match the drawing but it seems there is very good evidence that the drawings do not match what we have in our surplus military MAS rifles.

I need everyone who loads the 7.5x54MAS to check the diameter where the case body meets the shoulder angle. Do this on a fired case and post your results. My 2 are .450 to .452 (49-56 and M36) It is not an easy measurment because of the taper but you can get it close.

Please post an after sizing measurment too and your case length growth.

If you have some other brand die PLEASE post the results with it too.

The Lee die sizes this to .441" (according to Lee) and I agree. They also found that the 2 unsized cases I sent them grew in length .015" when they sized them. They wrote quote: "I do not know why this growth is so excessive because the die is not under sizing the case."

But in fact it is because the case is not the size they think it should be to start with.

I read another thread on this topic a couple months ago but can't find it. If anyone else read this and knows where to find it please let us know.

Thanks,

Motor

PS: This is also posted on "gunboard's" reloading forum.

[Motor]

This thread was not intended to bash Lee although the title strongly suggests it.

I have no doubt that their die is made to their drawing and their drawing seems to be correct. It's becoming more apparent that the military rifles were made with generously sized chambers. I'm asking for dimensional feedback in an attempt to verify this.

In the meantime there seems to be no other option than to either pay extra for a modified die or modify it yourself if you can. I already have did mine. I'm not sure if I'm done with it yet. So far so good.

Motor

[Harter66]

It may be tolerance stacking . I know of 3 30-06's that have chambers enough different that not 1 of the 3 will share with any other . To resolve the issue I simply procured a 2nd sizer . I kept it adjusted to stop about .1 off the shoulders ,effectively a neck sizer. On 1 case it just touched the shoulder body junction on another it actually sized the last .3 of stroke or so on the bottom of the body . The last 1 only hit the neck . With the 1st FL die all the way down on the 3rd case it bumps the neck shoulder junction and can run with only every other case lubed . GI chambers are usually cut large with fat shoulders and necks being common . This allows for ammo tolerances and dirt and combat grunge to not cause FTF and fire. The cases growing may also be caused by long headspace in addition to a fat chamber.

The causes can be found with some sharpie pen and your sizer . It is possible that your rifle will need to simply be short sized . It's a simple fix for what looks on the surface to be a huge rare problem that is actually very common, you may just have an extreme example.

You can of course always send several cases off to the Huntingtons or CH4D and get a matched custom die made or simply try another makers dies , there is always the option of a neck and shoulder bump die as well.

[Motor]

I have a similar thread on gunboards reloading forum and it seems from feedback that Lee dies size to minimum size. It's also very apparent that the military chambers are on the big end.

Feedback also shows that RCBS dies make the shoulder diameter approximately .445" (Lee .441") and OAL growth with the RCBS dies is in the normal range.

My die lapping exercise was helping but not yielding what I wanted so I decided to prep another casing to use for lapping. This is when I realized I had made a really dumb mistake. Apparently I had a berdan primed 7.62x51 case in the same tray and was lapping with it. It can never reach the shoulder hence the less than satisfactory results. But since it was partially sized in the MAS die it had the correct taper on it. This actually may have helped in the long run. Kind of acting like a roughing tool.

Tonight I finished lapping the die with a prepped 7.5x54Mas case. I am now getting the results I wanted. Shoulder diameter is going from .450" to .445" and OAL growth is now .004 to .007" (just to re-capp, before lapping the shoulder diameter was coming out .441" and the OAL was growing .015")

I can live with this and if I short size the shoulder diameter comes out above .445" and unlike before the OAL does not get longer. Mission accomplished. :)

In conclusion: If you want good case life and are not a machinist you probably should buy RCBS or some other brand of dies for your military surplus 7.5x54Mas.

BTW: Some feedback suggests that the 7.5x54Mas is not the only milsurp caliber that Lee dies size to minimum spec. Again same scenario, generously sized chambers and minimum spec dies.

I don't have this problem with my Lee 7.62x54R dies. Thank goodness. :)

Motor

[troyboy]

With the milsurp rifles die sizing is always ballpark. Many times tolerance stack is an issue as mentioned. Threads like this help keep the information available. I have the same dies and rifle but have not loaded for it yet. Glad you brought this up.

[Motor]

I'm glad someone may benefit. If you want to read the long version go to gunboards.com its in the reloading forum. Same title.
Shooting cast I will be able to neck only size for my bolt action but at least now I won't have to any more for my auto loader which has been working but is not recommended. Then when they got tight I couldn't simply bump the shoulder back a little because the shoulder diameter was hitting the die first. Plus what actually get snug is the base diameter and to size this requires full length. Luckily I got 5 cycles neck sizing for the auto loader before needing re-sizing.
Now I have all options open.
Do a good before and after set of measurements when you use your Lee die. Remember if needed you can neck only size with any .308 neck die that will work without contacting the case body.
Here is another bit of information I got from this experience, I got a reply stating that you can use a
7.62x54R neck only size die for the 7.5x54Mas. I have not personally verified this. I use a 300 Remington SAUM neck only die for mine.
I also got a reply stating that you can use the 7.62x54R Lee FCD to crimp the 7.5x54Mas and do so without any shims. Just simply adjust as normal. I have personally verified this one. It works.

Motor

[gwpercle]

If you want good case life, for one rifle only, send three fired cases to Dave Davison over at CH4D and have him hook you up with a perfectly dimensioned resizing die.
Not all chambers are the same and military arms are all over the place. But Dave can make it work.
Gary

[cajun shooter]

The very first thing to remember is that Lee has a bad track record when they are requested to do what is known as precision tool work. Lee was established as a company that allowed the every day guy that lives from paycheck to each new week. They have some tools that still remain in my supply of tools. Now having said that they will never again be purchased by me when molds, dies, lead furnaces, custom made molds, die sets or special made tools again.
I, like several other members who were here in the earlier days around 2007 when our membership was much smaller and were in our group buys of custom 6 cavity molds that had to be special ordered remember the one year waits and then the disappointment that came when used. I will not go into all of that but believe me when I say, I would not buy another Lee mold.
The opening of a business in Utah by a man named Tom stopped all of my grief and made my casting the happy thing I once enjoyed so much. That was about the best thing since sliced bread for hundreds or thousands of casters.
Now let me say that when it comes to buying any tools to reload surplus military rifles, most all companies have a huge gorilla on their back. Wartime production was done on machines that made very good rifles in the start of the run but after 1000 rifles past the recommended maintance down time, things became sloppy. This even holds true for many modern made guns used in the cowboy shooting games that I shoot in.
I shoot the 44 wcf cartridge and you may find guns made by all the makers like Ruger, Colt, Uberti and all other Italian makers that are out of spec. Some of these are so bad that they require new parts to be installed so that the firearm is able to perform. It's sad for sure but true.
Be ready to go the cost of having custom or at least improved factory dies on every new piece in the inventory. Take Care David

[EDG]

You may think some of the firearms are out of spec and most of the time you would be wrong.
Some are the problems are that some specs date back to 1869. The 38-55 is one of them and it was originally a Ballard single shot round.
For the most part the die makers do a good job of holding tight tolerances. It is just the nominal numbers they use may come from the old cartridge drawings over 100 years old. You can get a copy of the SAAMI and CIP drawings on line. You can find many instances where maximum cartridges do not fit minimum chambers. The other extreme is the minimum cartridge in a maximum chamber - and you wonder why you get key holing.


The very first thing to remember is that Lee has a bad track record when they are requested to do what is known as precision tool work. Lee was established as a company that allowed the every day guy that lives from paycheck to each new week. They have some tools that still remain in my supply of tools. Now having said that they will never again be purchased by me when molds, dies, lead furnaces, custom made molds, die sets or special made tools again.
I, like several other members who were here in the earlier days around 2007 when our membership was much smaller and were in our group buys of custom 6 cavity molds that had to be special ordered remember the one year waits and then the disappointment that came when used. I will not go into all of that but believe me when I say, I would not buy another Lee mold.
The opening of a business in Utah by a man named Tom stopped all of my grief and made my casting the happy thing I once enjoyed so much. That was about the best thing since sliced bread for hundreds or thousands of casters.
Now let me say that when it comes to buying any tools to reload surplus military rifles, most all companies have a huge gorilla on their back. Wartime production was done on machines that made very good rifles in the start of the run but after 1000 rifles past the recommended maintance down time, things became sloppy. This even holds true for many modern made guns used in the cowboy shooting games that I shoot in.
I shoot the 44 wcf cartridge and you may find guns made by all the makers like Ruger, Colt, Uberti and all other Italian makers that are out of spec. Some of these are so bad that they require new parts to be installed so that the firearm is able to perform. It's sad for sure but true.
Be ready to go the cost of having custom or at least improved factory dies on every new piece in the inventory. Take Care David

[John Boy]

I just received back from Peter at Lee a new 427 replacement lube sizer that he said was 0.001 to large. Actually, it was 0.002 too large
This is why when I need to resize a bullet to a tight chamber, I never have ordered the stock lube sizer ... always a custom that is either 0.001 or .0002 smaller than the stock die.
I have 23 stock diameter lube sizers. Have been mulling ... should I send Peter an email requesting that the 23 stock dies be replaced to the diameter that is on the paper in the red plastic container?[smilie=s:

[Tackleberry41]

When it comes to surplus weapons, its hard to find a standard. I know the Lee 577/450 dies go to a minimum spec, not that there really is one. They have a habit of ripping rims off. Learned to help them out with a punch from the top, and to simply size them less. But I would not expect much brass life working them back and forth like that.