300 BO hard chambering and removal-unfired

[tim josey]

Hi all, I just got a PSA upper in 300 BO, 16" pistol length gas tube. I have been making my own brass using Lee dies and checking with a Wilson gauge for fit and length. All seems fine, Then I load a few rounds using 10.5 gr. of 1680 and the NOE 311247 cast boolit -powder coated. When I try to chamber them, they are hard to go into battery and if they do they are very hard to eject (unfired). THen I bought Hornady 220 gr RN Jacketed to see if they worked better, did not.
I did buy some Remington 300 BO 120 gr. and they chamber and hand eject fine. I suspect that they are not sized enough. Is there a sizing die that is smaller than the Lee that I have? I thought that I would try one of the rounds that I did fire and see if fire forming would help, but it did not.
Also I would like to know what the COAL is for this NOE boolit.

Any help is appreciated for this OLD FART :-)

Thanks

Tim

[GRUMPA]

First: Your not mentioning what head stamp brass your using.

There's a difference in brass thickness.

Having a gauge is 1 thing, but using a gauge without an indicator is another.

Chances are your running into more than 1 problem. I think the neck diameter is to big, and you could be distorting the case when your inserting the bullet.

Now the dies: LEE dies wont work unless they're altered. As a matter of fact about 99% of the various dies I case form with I have to alter to make work.

[Omega]

The 300 Blackout is the only case I form myself so in light of that I got this slotted gauge
:

145207
It shows all the critical areas so you know where your case needs work. It works on the case by itself or with the loaded round. Head stamps do make a difference, some are just too thick unless neck turned and I am not doing that so I stick with LC. My Lee dies needed no modification, though I did have to make sure I had set them up right, and I also modified my shell holder but I don't know what fixed it, the mod or the right directions to setup my dies. One of the issues I think is the most critical with lee dies is the amount of flex in the press. My single stage has no issues while with the turret press I have to run the case up a couple of times turning and holding for a sec for it to form the case properly.

[tim josey]

First: Your not mentioning what head stamp brass your using.

There's a difference in brass thickness.

Having a gauge is 1 thing, but using a gauge without an indicator is another.

Chances are your running into more than 1 problem. I think the neck diameter is to big, and you could be distorting the case when your inserting the bullet.

Now the dies: LEE dies wont work unless they're altered. As a matter of fact about 99% of the various dies I case form with I have to alter to make work.

They are assorted brass, did not think there was a difference in 223/556 brass. what is the altered deal with Lee dies?

[GRUMPA]

Factory Blackout brass

Gemtech (factory 300 BLK) - 0.011"
PNW Arms - 0.011"
RP - 0.010"

Converted brass

Good:
ADI - 0.012"
Aguila - 0.012"
A USA - 0.012"
FC - 0.013/0.014" [Note 1]
GFL - 0.012"
HB - 0.013"
Hornady (223 headstamp) - 0.011"
Hornady (nickel 223) - 0.012"
IMI - 0.012" [Note 4]
IVI - 0.013"
IVI ('85) - 0.012" (runs great)
LC - 0.011"
LC (converted blank) - 0.012"
PERFECTA 223 rem. - 0.012"
PMC - modern "bronze" and "X-tac" are good, older PMC with small letters may have problems
PS - 0.011/0.012"
PSD - 0.011"
RA - 0.013"
RA ('69) - 0.012"
RP .223 - 0.011'
SSA - 0.012"
TAA - 0.013"
Tula - 0.0115"
TZZ - 0.012"
WCC - 0.010/0.011"
Winchester - 0.011"
WIN NT - 0.011"


Thick neck wall, bad without neck turning:

ATI - 0.015" [Note 3]
CBC - 0.014/0.015"
CJ6 - 0.015"
DNL - 0.016"
FNM - 0.016" [Note 3]
GECO - 0.015/0.016"
Hot Shot - 0.014" [Note 3]
HRTRS ( Herters?) - 0.017"
IK03 - 0.015"
IMI - 0.015" [Note 4]
KFA .223 REM - 0.015"-0.019"
MKE13 - Anecdotally reported as troublesome
MPA - 0.015"
NPA - [Note 3]
PMC (old headstamp) - 0.015"
PMP - 0.015"
PPU - 0.014/0.015" [Note 3]
RORG - 0.015"
RWS - 0.014-0.015"
S&B - 0.015/0.017"
Wolf Brass .223 - 0.014"

Note 1:
"FC" brass includes several types of brass that don't seem to come from the same factory. Most of them are good to go, but the "thin web" FC that turned up a few years back tends to have thicker walls and will cause neck thickness problems. Some FC that runs thicker is the newer stuff. Has beautiful annealing marks on it. Has FC @ 12:00, numbers @ 3:00 and/or 9:00 (May have both, could just have one), and the year @ 6:00


Note 2:
NPA is very low quality brass, with a super small flash hole, and is likely to cause broken or stuck decapping pins, or other problems.

Note 3:
The brass marked with this note may require extra sizing force, and machine flex may cause them to headspace too large if the machine is not set up specifically to do this "harder sizing" brass. This is due to thicker brass, alloy variations, or variations in factory anneal. This isn't always universal within a headstamp, for example, some older PPU had the problem and others did not.

Note 4:
This brass is included in both the good and the bad list based on differing user reports.

It is important to keep in mind that sometimes a single headstamp can be made at multiple factories on multiple differing manufacturing processes. Other times a manufacturer that has their own brass factory might bring in brass from another manufacturer during times of high demand or to fulfill a large contract.

And the dies themselves generally require material removed from the base of the die. When I was using those I always had to do that. I also removed that decapping set-up and drilled and tapped threads to use a RCBS decapping rod.

[tim josey]

Thanks for the suggestions, I would like to know more about removing material from the base of the die. Does it require the use of a lathe or just common hand tools? I own a collision repair shop and have access to many hand tools and drill press.

I'm leaning more toward the shoulder is not bumped back enough.

Tim

[GRUMPA]

The die itself it pretty hard, so here's what I would do. I can't turn them down on my lathe, I chuck on the die itself with the nut removed and use my Dremel to remove material. Just use your calipers and get a reading on the over-all length of the die, generally you'll need to remove about .010 from the base....

[thumper,eh?]

Tim josey, I had the same problem when starting out with the 300 blk. I've been reloading handgun, rifle and shotgun for over 45 years, never had as much trouble with a cartridge as the 300 blk. I have the Sheridan gauge, reformed ( from 223 ) brass fit fine in the die, flush with the bottom. Loaded them up, would not fire, needed a hammer to get the loaded round out of the chamber. Took the gun / ammo home, dropped it in the chamber checker, it dropped in / out as if you were dropping 22lr rounds thru a 308 die.

I called the company which I purchased the barrel from. Not very helpful other than, "use only factory ammo" which was no where listed on their web site, and in effect, "our sh** don't stink" when I asked about their chambers.

I use RCBS small base dies, RCBS shellholder. Took me a while to figure this out, I had to JAM the brass into the die to get it to fit in the chamber. Never ran into this issue with any other cartridge I ever loaded. I'm not interested in springing my press so it was concerning. Like grumpa said, taking a couple of thou off the shell holder should make enough difference that it will work without busting your press or tearing a muscle somewhere and they should work properly.

Let us know how it turns out. If you don't have access to a lathe, maybe trying to run the top of the shell holder across a stone or fine grit paper might work, mike it first to be able to tell if you are making progress.

[garym1a2]

Try a RCBS small base die, I never could get good results with the Lee and 300BLK.

[popper]

Tim, use the case gauge to check you converted brass HS on a fired case. Set up your die for that HS. Loaded neck OD over.333 probably won't fit. Then set seating depth to fit throat & bore. You may need to neck turn or toss some brass.

[MT Chambers]

You have to determine whether it is sticking the bullet into the lands, the case neck into the chamber or the case neck is too far forward, the easy way to determine this is to smoke the case, if the bullet was sticking you would see the marks made by the lands.

[TreeKiller]

The 300 Blackout is the only case I form myself so in light of that I got this slotted gauge
:

145207
It shows all the critical areas so you know where your case needs work. It works on the case by itself or with the loaded round. Head stamps do make a difference, some are just too thick unless neck turned and I am not doing that so I stick with LC. My Lee dies needed no modification, though I did have to make sure I had set them up right, and I also modified my shell holder but I don't know what fixed it, the mod or the right directions to setup my dies. One of the issues I think is the most critical with lee dies is the amount of flex in the press. My single stage has no issues while with the turret press I have to run the case up a couple of times turning and holding for a sec for it to form the case properly.
Did the gauge come with the cut out or did you make the cutout?
Dan

[2wheelDuke]

Did the gauge come with the cut out or did you make the cutout?
Dan

The sheridan gauge is available with the cutout already.

[tim josey]

I think I'm getting closer to finding the problem area, still think its the Lee die. I removed about .014 from the Lee die and resized a couple of the converted brass, I had to re-trim as it was longer now, then I loaded more of the 220 gr. They go into battery now but still have to use the mortar to remove, but not as hard as before. Then I reloaded a factory 300 ACC BO in Reminton. Resized and trimmed and loaded the Hornady 220 gr. jacketed. It worked just fine.
I did one more rem. case but I forgot to re-trim and it was hard to remove also. The I measured the case length and it was .006 over max length, so I hope that the extra length was the problem.
Think I will still buy the RCBS small base die anyway. I will keep trying! I want to shoot mostly subs as I have can in jail at this time.

Thanks again

TIm

[flyingrhino]

I use the lee die for forming BO brass. I had to sand a few thousands off the base of the die to get the shoulder set back correct. Just used a pane of glass as a lapping plate and some 600 grit paper. I use Forster dies for reloading.

[popper]

Set you die with an UNLOADED case. Set the neck back a bit at a time until the bolt unlocks easily. Then seat your boolit, check neck OD. Set your COL back a bit at a time until you don't engrave on the rifling. Hint: don't crimp and size just a tad small so there is not much neck tension. If the boolit doesn't stick in the bore it will probably come out at ~ correct COL. If it sticks, the bolt will still unlock easily and just tap the boolit out with a rod. Sheridan type gauge ONLY works if you chamber and gauge are cut with the same reamer.

[tim josey]

Set you die with an UNLOADED case. Set the neck back a bit at a time until the bolt unlocks easily. Then seat your boolit, check neck OD. Set your COL back a bit at a time until you don't engrave on the rifling. Hint: don't crimp and size just a tad small so there is not much neck tension. If the boolit doesn't stick in the bore it will probably come out at ~ correct COL. If it sticks, the bolt will still unlock easily and just tap the boolit out with a rod. Sheridan type gauge ONLY works if you chamber and gauge are cut with the same reamer.

Still learning, but the case is already bottoming out on the die and case holder, can't get any closer than that..., Still needs more sizing. I did remove about .014 from the lee die, helped some. I think that the Lee die is a little off on this one.
I chucked one up in the drill press and used #320 grit sand paper and removed material from the neck down and it worked !

I hope the RCBS small base die cures this.

Next on to making the magazines work with the larger cast boolit from NOE... 311247. I know I will have to remove some material from the ribs, but how far do I need to remove material from the mag?

Thanks again,

Tim

[popper]

removed material from the neck down and it worked ! From the case body or neck? That does sound like a really tight chamber. I turn my necks to insure they are the right size. About 10 sec. each with the drill & hand turning tool. I just used the drum sander on my dremel tool to grind down a 308W die (RCBS SB)so it worked right. I don't care if I remove too much, just set the die where it should be. Get a good medium flat file and go till the nose is loose in the mag (Pmags) You have to lower the rib all the way to the bottom of the mag, else they will jam. Lee die works fine for me.

[Gunor]

Magazine work - try a metal 'old school' 20 round Colt magazine for the longer bullets...

[Elkins45]

Are you really sure it's a case problem and not a bullet problem? The NOE 247 has to be seated deeper than the magazine allows in order for a loaded round to seat in my AR Stoner barrel. If your barrel is as short-throated as mine is you have to be very careful with bucket selection and seating depth.

I bought a throating reamer from Brownell's and am going to give mine a little breathing room when I get the chance.

[Bzcraig]

Glad I saw this thread! Just fired my 300BO for the first time a couple of weeks ago and had some of the issues discussed here. So I went out a tried to chamber an empty case and sure enough had some difficulty. Ran several through my sizer again and problems went away. Using Lee dies and had to make sure all the 'slop' was removed so die wouldn't stop until it had to and that did the trick. Thanks guys!

[osteodoc08]

I've been using an RCBS Small Base 300 BLK die. I have set it up to where it slightly "cams over" on my Lyman Turret and all has been well.

Ive noticed that my 150gr pull downs have to be seated deeper than the Hodgdon online data suggests. It suggests COAL 2.200 IIRC and I ended up seating mine to COAL 2.075 to work well.

[tim josey]

From the case body or neck? That does sound like a really tight chamber. I turn my necks to insure they are the right size. About 10 sec. each with the drill & hand turning tool. I just used the drum sander on my dremel tool to grind down a 308W die (RCBS SB)so it worked right. I don't care if I remove too much, just set the die where it should be. Get a good medium flat file and go till the nose is loose in the mag (Pmags) You have to lower the rib all the way to the bottom of the mag, else they will jam. Lee die works fine for me.

The case body, from the shoulder down and especially at the base. If the RCBS die does not cure this would lapping the chamber help or would it need to be done with a reamer?
I just did 4 more to make sure, all worked perfectly!

Tim

[popper]

Tim, were these fired from your BO or newly converted range pick up? If from yours and still won't fix it, it's the die. Some one else's chamber may be out of spec so the SB die should work. Goodsteel can tell you about reaming/lapping, I've not done it (he is a good gunsmith, I'm not, I do wish he did AR barrels). If it is the barrel, I'd just send it back with evidence it isn't right. Unless you sent your bolt to PSA for proper HS, you get to do it by setting your die properly. This is where the case gauge helps. Case HS should be so the case just allows the bolt to unlock easy. Too long, the case jams, too short and you get primer push back, stretched cases or FTF. If your HS is different from the case gauge, measure difference with feeler gauge. I'm wondering why you had to re-trim the cases after re-sizing, pushing the shoulder back (reducing HS) won't lengthen the case but will make the neck longer - indicating too short HS. Hope this helps. Oh, the Sheridan gauge if cut to MINIMUM SAAMI specs will insure YOUR ammo fits, doesn't insure it is correct for YOUR chamber. Nothing against it, just a note.

[tim josey]

These cases were fired from my PSA 556 upper which were also a mixture of once fired and some new. As far as re-trimming, when I shortened the Lee sizing die and bumped the shoulder back, the case stuck further out of the Le Wilson HS guage, of course it also went further in the HS guage on the base. I thought the case neck might go to far in the chamber so I trimmed .
I will try some more of the Rem factory 300 BO when I get a chance to unload a few to see if it is my barrel or the guage. Either way the RCBS dies will be here from Midway in the morning.

Tim

[popper]

It won't be the gauge but as you found, chambers/bores run all over the place as does HS. Just general gun making tolerances.

[tim josey]

Got the RCBS small base die set in and resized 5 untouched 556 cut-offs. They worked perfectly! easy chambering and hand removal. Must be a very tight chamber as Popper mentioned.

Now to work on mags and feeding with the NOE 311247's. Anybody use this boolit and could let me know what your COAL is? Mine wiil Probably be different , but want a starting point. Tried doing a search but did not come up with much. I might start a new thread if nothing comes up.

Thanks to all for your help.

Tim

[cs86]

It doesn't look like anyone mentioned this yet so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. When I first started with AR blackout I was producing brass out of 5.56 brass also. I read enough to know what head stamps to pick and which to stay away from. After cutting them down, forming/sizing and trimming I would get brass stuck in my chamber. I was following the trim length of the hornady book I have. After some researching and testing I found that the hornady book had a trim length that was too long. Looking at the saami spec of the caliber you should be at 1.368 for the case length and I think people are trimming shorter then that. I'd double check your trim length.

[DocSavage]

I used a file and trim die from Redding 300/221 and standard 300/221 dies to make cases and ammo. Using a Noveske upper my ammo has worked flawlessly. Brass was made from 223 surplus lake city surplus brass.

[GhostHawk]

My question was did you do a chamber cast so you know how much room you have?

Setting your bullets long, or cases a touch longer than they should be could easily be jamming the bullet into the rifling, which would account for hard removal.

I know there is a very good sticky on this forum about this very thing.

And it would explain why the factory loads were fine.

As to sizing, I would slug your barrel, it "should" be .308 but that does not mean yours is.
Then I would cast aiming for 2 thousandths above that. Size only if it is variable or if you need gas checks.

I know my bore is a tight .308, really closer to .3075, so I reamed out a .309 sizing die to .310. Most bullets slip through easy, some are however harder. So in that respect in my opinion sizing is good.

But it is all about fit, size, how long it is in the case, how long the case is.
You can very easily get combinations that in theory should work but with any given rifle might not.

Did you even look at a loaded round inserted and extracted for rifling marks on the bullet??

That to me is your first tip that you are setting them long.

Where did you get your brass? Did you make your own? Did you cut off the old neck/shoulder from .223? Did you cut enough if so?

It ain't rocket science, but that doesn't mean it can't be tricky.