How many grains of BP in a 45-70 case?

[KenH]

Hello all - the title pretty says it all. How many grains of Goex FFg would normally one expect to fit in a Starline brass 45-70 case? Just loose filled, as it dipped? I only get almost 60 grains - does this sound correct? Not compressed, just lightly filled to the brim. That's the same amount I get in my 50-70 Starline brass case also. I was really expecting more - maybe 70 grains? What's normal - can "normal" be used?

I've read using a drop tube well over 70 grains can be compressed in a 45-70 case.

Thanks for any info.

Ken H>

[country gent]

Several things factor into this. A casefull of powder may compress just right under some bullets but be to much compression under others. How deep the bullet your using seats into the case makes a big diffrence. The type of powder is also going to have an effect. I believe my load with 2f goes in 45-70 was around 63 grns with the 510 grn lyman 457125 bullets, with the seating depth for my pedersoli sharps. Finding the compression level and wad the rifle wants is the trick here to accurate loads.

[Don McDowell]

If you're shooting regular Goex 2f, you'll want to weigh out the 70 grs, and while holding the pan above the powder funnel slowly pour that charge into the case. Then put what ever wad you're using on top of the powder and compress enough that the bullet will firmly touch the wad when fully seated.

[rfd]

case load volume also is dependent on the brass manufacturer and whether sized or fire formed.

[KenH]

Country Gent - That's about what I would get if I did a full compress load - 63 grains so I guess I'm pretty much on track.

I can see there are a LOTS of variables involved - thanks for the info.

Ken H>

[rfd]

unless yer shooting past 300 yards or so, i wouldn't be too concerned about the max amount of bp you can fit in the brass. i'd make up a dummy with the brass and bullet used, get the max oal, build a round with a bullet that either engraves or nearly engraves the rifling and tweak from there. using fire formed starline brass, swiss 1-1/2f, 459525m3 money bullet, i typically load 60.1 grains with about .020 light compression and that round engraves @ 3.015".

[KenH]

RFD, thanks for the info - I'm not by any means looking for max loads. My question was just what you answered, how much is a full case - with only mild you have 60.1 grains with Swiss. That gives me a good idea that my results are somewhat on track. Thanks.

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

A lot depends on if you're just wanting the gun to bang, or do you actually want to hit something, or shoot anything resembling a group?
If all you want to do is make the gun go bang, spend a ton of time trying to deal with the fouling, then go right on ahead with your 60 grs. of Goex 2f.That stuff likes compression and lots of it.
Folks can shoot 60 grs of Swiss and get away with it, as Swiss is smaller kernel sized and a different combination of ingredients, and it doesn't really care for compression.

[country gent]

The way I work up a load is simple start with type powder you want or have. Find the no compressed load with wad and your bullet and work up in 2-3 grn increments. When the 2 sweet spots are found test at mid point. Only changing the powder charge changes both the charge and the compression of the load. One this charge is found then seating depth wads and primers can be experimented with one at a time. A case can be sacrifices to make a means of measuring this hieght. Leave 1/4" of the case mouth cutting a square out 1/4-3/8" wide and 1/2" long 3/8" down from case mouth. cut a slot from case mouth to opening. This can be layed out easily and done with a dremil tool and cut off blade. This allows you to seat a bullet under tension into rifling and see the base allowing you to measure the hieght of powder charge wad stack up.

[BrentD]

FWIW, I was loading 82 grs of Swiss 1.5fg in my .45-70 cases with zero compression. But a new back of the same powder now requires about 0.1" of compression. I couldn't get much more than 83 grs in the case w/o an extension tube. Cases are Starline and the powder is drop-tubed.

[rfd]

yup, powder brand and size and batch are all important if ya wanna go more than just *bang*. and other stuff, too.

[MT Chambers]

W-w cases will allow quite a bit more powder than say Remington, not sure about Starline.

[El Bango]

The standard load using the old balloon cases was a 405 grain bullet backed by 70 grains of black powder. I believe they used a cartridge black powder and have never heard or read of ffg or fffg.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I load 62 gr of Goex FFg in .45-70 in my Sharps with the 405 gr boolit and shoot out to 500 yards with it. I live in a land of trees and hills so 500 yards is the maximum distance my local range offers.

[oldred]

I don't really claim to have the experience that some here have and thus can not get too technical but I would like to comment on my observations about little/no compression vs heavy compression. I agree whole-heartedly with Don's statement on compression and fouling, using Goex FFG and starting with little to no compression fouling was bad to say the least but being inexperienced with BPCR loading I just accepted this as "normal" for BP. After refining my technique and experimenting with compressed max charges I was very much surprised (actually delighted!) at the decease in fouling problems since I wasn't even expecting that. Of course compression did not eliminate fouling but it did indeed make a profound difference in shot-to-shot fouling management procedures, basically it went from actually being an annoying problem to simply being just part of the process and no longer a problem at all, the improvement in grouping however was the best part of all!

[KenH]

Thanks for all the comments folks - I wasn't trying to work up a load to shoot. I knew the 45-70 round was named because it was 45 caliber, and held 70 grains of black - back then. My case only held around 60 and was wondering what the deal was. I think El Bango has the right info, those old cases were balloon cases which gave a LOTS (well, some more) room in the case which allowed 70 grains to fit easier.

I'm just now getting a scope setup on my rifles so I can tell anything about accuracy - my old eyes just don't see those iron sights very good. I'm thinking about rebarreling one of my old Rolling Blocks to 45-70 to go along with the old trapdoor 45-70 I've got. I'm having almost as much fun working on these guns as actually shooting them!

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

I have no idea how old you are ,but I am always somewhat tickled when I read about some one with old eyes that can shoot irons, especially when I am setting here at the NRA BPTR nationals and ther are only about 4 people who aren't on the board a seniors, some are 70 or over, and ar able to shoot X rings at 1000 yds...

[hydraulic]

I have several old .45-70 balloon head empties that I picked up at the site of old Fort Custer near Hardin Montana. Most of them were flattened and beat up but I have a couple that are still OK. I filled them with Elephant 2F, several years ago, and compared them to modern WW cases. I didn't weigh the powder, just eyeballed them, and I couldn't tell that there was any difference in the capacity of the cases. Doc Carlson, black powder editor of Gun Digest, told me that he had torn down one of the old Frankford Arsenal cartridges and said the powder was compressed so hard that he had to dig it out with a screwdriver. 70grs compressed is the proper load.

[KenH]

Oh, I'm an old retired person - I'm 68, 69 my next birthday and my eyes just are not what they should be. While i can see "ok" at a distance, up close I need a bit of help. I can look over the iron sights and see target just fine, but the iron sights are just a blur.

149759
The above is a cutaway of a balloon head 44-40 case, and it's my understanding the 45-70 and other brass BPCR of the time were all the same type balloon cases. Just looking it "looks like" there would be more room. Compressing BP sure makes sense - been shooting muzzle loads for many years and they are ALWAYS a compressed powder load. You don't just "push" the bullet to seat it to powder, you bounce the ramrod a couple of times to be sure it's "seated" good. :)

Interesting your actual ballow head brass didn't hold any more BP than modern brass.... maybe the case walls are thicker taking up the extra space.

Thanks again to all for comments and sharing info.

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

Well fact is it is just not that hard to from 70 or more grs of 2f black powder into a 45 70 case from any of the modern manufactures. During the shooting season there are 1000's of rounds sent down range by that charge on any given weekend.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I use a drop tube about 20" and weigh each load 62 gr of Goex FFg into Starline cases. I used to load 68 gr. Then I compress the powder with a wad using a compression die. Then I seat the 405 gr 457193. 62 gr of FFg almost fills the case, and I don't see where a ballon head case would provide that much more room that another 8 gr. would fit. But I've never tried it. I've got a box of old .45-70 that looks like it came from the late 1800's and I'd hate to pull one of the 20 cartridges. My load of 62 gr meets all my needs, but I haven't placed anywhere near respectable at a match yet. My eyes weren't that good when I was testing for the Navy's flight program 35 years ago. Bench rest shooting my Sharps is very accurate. I'm seeking an improvement in accuracy by regular practice out at the range, not at the loading bench right now.

[BrentD]

I'm shooting 82 gr of Swiss 1.5 in my .45-70 today at the a Great Plains Regional.

It is far easier to see and shoot irons at long range than it is at silhouette.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I dumped 70 grains down the drop tube, spilled FFg from overfilling the case.

[Gunlaker]

Silver Hammer Jack you'll find a difference between the various brands that can amount to quite a bit. When using Swiss 1.5 or Goex Express FFg I use the same powder charges as Brent does. This is for a paper patched bullet that is sitting in the case around 0.1".

The cases will hold a bit more. Regular Goex FFg is a lot less dense and has less energy. I had one lot that was only as dense as Fg, it varies a lot from lot to lot. I'm just starting to play with Goex OE 1.5 in my .45-70 PP rifle to see how it does. With that powder I'm under 80 grains to fill the case, but still well over 70.

For my .45-70's using grease grooved bullets they seem to like compressed charges of 68 to 69 grains.

Also what Brent says about BPTR targets being easier to see with irons is definitely true. Consistently centering a turkey in apperture sights is difficult unless you have excellent vision. Mine is still good but I am preparing my rifles for the day I need to use a scope. I shoot better with appertures still.

Chris.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Goex is the only powder I can get at the LGS. I just dumped an overflowing charge of Goex FFg in a resized Starline brass and scraped the powder level. The charge weighed 66 grains.

[hydraulic]

The problem is the resized brass. Most BPCR shooters at the matches, like Don McDowell, do not resize their brass and this leaves enough room for 70 grains, dropped through a drop tube, to nearly fill the case with enough room for a card wad to make a 1/4 inch compression. I'm talking grease groove bullets.

[Don McDowell]

I've been slow pouring 69 grs of 1.5 OE into resized Winchester cases compressing .25 and seating a 535 gr money bullet to the driving band. 70 grs of OE 2f with a 520 gr money bullet.. Prior to that I shot 72 grs of KIK 2f, 72 grs of Express, and 69 grs of Cartridge in resized 45-70 cases. Some powders thrive on compression, others not so much.
But getting 70 grs of 2f blackpowder into a 45-70 case is a really common practice.
The reason I'm resizing those Winchester cases is I'm fire forming them in a different rifle. The Remington cases that the wife's rifle uses only get a resizing about every 4-5 reloads, but still 70 grs of 2f.. Last time out she shot a 76 1x at 600 with a miss..from sitting position.. with the crossticks rested immediately in front of the rifles forearm..

[Klaus]

Hi Ken,

you got some good advises from well skilled BPCR Guys.

i have had also read and follow their advises to try and find out what are the best for me.

for my personal use and limited range about 100m
i settled on 62 - max. 65 grs. of FFg Powder and a 520 or 405 grs bullet.

using a blow tube and emmerts lube makes me able to shoot 40 or more round without loss of accuracy.

if you need a load for long range ( above 200 m) or hunting issues fill the brass with with 70 grs or what ever you can press in it and be happy.

my 2 cents from Germany

Klaus

[Area Man]

Several things factor into this. ....

Will you typically be able to get slightly more FFG than FG because of the finer granulation?

[Gunlaker]

Most of the time the FFg will be more dense so yeah. But I have had exceptions with plain Goex.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Will you typically be able to get slightly more FFG than FG because of the finer granulation?

Usually 2f is smaller grain size than F, but that's only a valid comparision when using the same brands. Example 2f Swiss,Schuetzen and now Old Eynsford is closer in size to 3f Goex and KIK.

[BrentD]

And same lot # of the same brand as well. Frankly, I don't always see the finer grains being heavier for a given volume.

[KenH]

@Klaus: You are correct, there is LOTS of knowledge that is shared on this forum. I've been reading for many pages back and learning a LOTS.

OK folks, this morning I did some measuring and took time to make sure each case measure was level full. The case was Starline case, checked both an unfired and a fired case (seated a fired primer in both cases). The fire formed case only held a couple of tenths more powder than the unfired case. When I measured powder at first post, the case wasn't completely full, but did allow compressing with wads and bullet. Today I made sure each case was level full, filled by pouring from powder can thru a funnel into case. This allowed only slight packing while filling. The following is what I got - all is GEOX powder.

69.5 grain of FFFg
70.2 grain of FFg
76.8 grain of Fg

I was surprised how much the case held of the Fg. I really expected the large grain size to have more air space causing less weight. I expect the large grain size held more power to add weight?

Next question - is the Fg suitable for the 45-70? Would I expect more recoil or less recoil with same size bullet (350 grain) and same weight of powder?

Thanks again to all for sharing so much knowledge.

Ken H>

[BrentD]

If you use a drop tube of 18-30" long, you should get quite a bit more in the case. My standard .45-70 target load is 82 grs of Swiss 1.5 fg. This leaves just enough room for a 0.06" wad. I then compress it very slightly to produce 0.09" of space for the bullet.

There is a fair bit of variation from batch to batch and within and between manufacturer's with respect to powder density.

[Don McDowell]

Ken , yes you can use 1f , the thing you might run into with it , is heavier fouling than the 2f.

[Col4570]

I load 65 Grains of 3f for my 45.70 Pedersoli sharps,this gives me about 1/4" of compression to seat a Postel Bullet to just cover the top Canelure.The bore riding Postel top ring is just clear of the rifling with this loading and gives good accuracy up to 500 yards which is the extent of our range.I use an overpowder card.

[KenH]

Well, I'm not really pushing to get more powder in the case - got plenty of "kick" now. Not as bad as I expected 60 grains of FFg to have behind a 350 grain bullet, but enough.

Col4570 - you said you use overpowder card - is that all you use between powder and bullet? No lube wad or anything? Just the lube in the bullet grooves? I'm looking at a drawing of both the Sage Mold and the Lyman #457132 bullets. Good looking bullet and at 530 grains I'll bet the wind doesn't move it much at 500 yds.

How do you lube the Postell bullet?

Thanks again to all for sharing info.

Ken H>

[Col4570]

KenH,Yes just a Card between the Powder and Bullet,I dip each bullet in my lube ( Beeswax,Tallow,Neutragena Soap and Olive Oil) covering all canelures,the case will scrape off the excess lube as you push the Bullet in.I do not crimp my Cases,nor do I size them after their first fireforming,this will give your cases a long life.Crimping reduces the life of your cases considerably by eventually splitting them at the mouth.With a single shot rifle there is no need for crimping if you keep the loaded rounds in a box that just takes care of the length.If any Bullets feel loose just squeeze the case a little between index finger and thumb.

[Tar Heel]

W-w cases will allow quite a bit more powder than say Remington, not sure about Starline.
As mentioned, WW cases hold more. I can load 70gr (with tapping & compression) in them but 63gr in the Rem, Starline, and FC cases.

[Tar Heel]

I lube my 530gr bullets with 1:2 beeswax to mutton tallow. I hand lube them and seat them over two .020 thick wads cut from a milk carton.

[rfd]

using drop tubed swiss 1-1/2f, i can easily get in 65.2 grains under .030" worth of wads, w/.030" compression, under a baco 459525m3 bullet. that's the load i've been using for the last coupla months.

http://i.imgur.com/8ByNhyr.jpg

[KenH]

Col, Tarheel, RFD - thanks for the info. Sounds like with a GG'd (Grease grooved?) bullet there is not any real "need" for a grease cookie? Just powder, good wad, then lubed bullet. What size are your bullets? My trapdoor is a .452" bore with a .458 groove diameter. I'm planning to play around some with PP'd bullets later, but for now perhaps easiest is to use GG bullets. I'm MUCH more familiar with GG with .357 pistol and 30-30 casting 'n shooting from many years ago.

I've ordered an E.R. Shaw barrel in 45-70 with a 1-22 to install on a Rolling Block action, but that's still 3 months or so before delivery.

What do you think of the following 3 bullets - I know they are cheap Lee molds... Well, Diamond Jim I've never been.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GXDPPC/ Lee Precision 459-500-3R)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KW72RW/ (Lee Precision SC 459-405)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GXFC6M/ (Lee Precision C457-500-F)

Thanks to all for the help and guidance,

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

That 500 3R has a lot of trouble staying stable in windy conditions, and doesn't do real well past about 300 yds in good conditions.
With the 1 -22 twist your best bet is going to be the government bullet at the best, bullets at 450 grs or more might have a good deal of trouble stablilizing from that slow twist.

[Col4570]

Kenh,A Blow Tube made from an old Case and some Rubber or Plastic Tube is a handy tool to keep the fouling soft.Breath down the Barrel after every shot and wipe out every five.it works for me.The Soap content in the lube reacts to the moisture and stops the residue from baking hard.

[rfd]

+1 to what don just posted.

lots will depend on the primary use you have in mind for yer .45-70 rifle, then get the proper/best hardware and function to match.

you'd do MUCH better with a 1:18 barrel for 500+ grain bullets, and you will need that weight for any consistently accurate distance shooting.

imho, lee's .45-70 bullets are fine for hunting and plinking, but not for long range target/bpcr. if real accuracy well beyond 100 yards is yer goal, don't skimp on a good bullet design and mould, it'll just be a waste of money. been there, done that.

there are two basic camps for bpcr black powder fouling control - blow tube or wipe. learn about each, hopefully try each, then decide what's best for yer rifle and you. both methods are used by top shooters, not one is better than the other ... but again, there can be dependencies for on how yer gonna be using yer rifle that might dictate which fouling control will work best, for you.

[KenH]

Thanks for comments folks - the twist rate in the E.R. Shaw barrel was a choice of only 1-14 or 1-22. In discussion with the fellow there, it seemed 1-22 would be better for cast bullets, so that was my selection. I'm sure 99.9% of shooting (maybe 100%) will certainly be less than 300 yds - with 99% being 100 yds (or less). I do plan to mount a scope so my old eyes can see to shoot a bit.

A buddy left a mold here for me to use, it's the Lee 457-340-F mold. As that's only 340 grain, comments on how well it would shoot to only 100 yds?

For bullets with grease grooves I've read the diameter should be groove diameter - is that correct?

Thanks again to all for help 'n suggestions.

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

Groove diameter to .002 over is where greasers thrive.

[KenH]

Thanks Don - that's got me going. Now to mix up some BP lube..... maybe beeswax and crisco..... or canola oil..... or "virgin" olive oil.

[country gent]

A pretty good lube is 50% beeswax 40% crisco and 10% canola oil ( olive oil can also be used) I drop the oil to 5% and add 5% anhydrous lanolin to mine. works well and is easy to make. Melt blend ingrediants in a double boiler. Wax crisco and oil add and blend lanolin when others are liquified. Stir good and let cool

[KenH]

Yep, that's pretty much what I'm looking to try, but I don't have the lanolin on hand right now. I'll start with the beeswax, crisco, and canola oil - those I've got on hand. Just a small batch to try. This BP stuff is sorta addicting!!!

Ken H>

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Don - that's got me going. Now to mix up some BP lube..... maybe beeswax and crisco..... or canola oil..... or "virgin" olive oil.

Save yourself a whole bunch of trouble and headache, just purchase any of the proven blackpower cartridge lubes. Bullshops NASA, Big Sky Components BSC, or SPG. All are well tested. You'll have enough other things to worry about other than whether or not your lube is working.

[country gent]

Theres alot to be said for Dons advice, purchase a good well known black Powder rated lube first. Use it for awhile and gets the loads working and experience then start the homemade lubes. Youll have a measure to judge your results against then. I have pot of the above mix here ( about 5 lbs) that I use, but theres also several blocks of spg here also.

[KenH]

Well Don - "IF" I were smart that's exactly what I'd do.... and most likely will still do. BUT - I like fooling with stuff, seems like I learn better by doing it from scratch many times..... and I just like the DIY stuff.

This forum has such a great deal of good info it's too easy for me to spend too many hrs/day just reading rather than doing {g}

Ken H>

[StrawHat]

Save yourself a whole bunch of trouble and headache, just purchase any of the proven blackpower cartridge lubes. Bullshops NASA, Big Sky Components BSC, or SPG. All are well tested. You'll have enough other things to worry about other than whether or not your lube is working.


by KenH "IF" I were smart that's exactly what I'd do.... and most likely will still do. BUT - I like fooling with stuff, seems like I learn better by doing it from scratch many times..... and I just like the DIY stuff.

Many, if not most of us like to "adjust" our loads. It is what makes us crazy. But, you need a base line to start so you know what to expect. And then, change only one variable at a time. Otherwise, you will not know what caused the change to occur.

I probably made up 50 different lubes and messed with a bunch of different options before I settled on a load.

Also, before you get real invested in alchemy, decide what you want from your rifle and loads. Rifles and loads for 1000 yard shooting are different than rifles and loads for shooting at 5 gallon pails at 100 yards. Both are a lot of fun but one is a lot easier to work up a load.

Kevin

[KenH]

I've only shot 1,000 yds one time and that was with smokeless powder and a rifle setup for 1,000 yd shooting. It would be something I'd like more of. I'm MUCH more familiar with 100 yd shooting, and looking for well less than 1 MOA...... 40 years ago that took some work with rifle and loads both to get "one hole groups" at 100 yds. I had cast bullets shooting 1 MOA, and match jackets less than 1/2 MOA. By far the best was with a 25-06 I'd built up myself using a barreled action. Perhaps my proudest was with a 6mm I built for my wife using a M93 action that had been special heat treated to make it suitable for full 6mm loads. I purchased a barrel, installed barrel to action myself, set headspace, built a stock - and at 80 yds she shot a 5 shot one hole group using cast bullets. She kept that target displayed on the wall for a while. Sad to say we sold the rifle to finance a trip to Europe to bum around for a couple of months.

Boy, those days were a LONG time ago and shooting 'n casting bullets has changed LOTS since those days!

With this BPCR I can get right at 50 yds in my back yard to work up a load, then a trip "up home" to the farm to get 100, or maybe even 200 yds to check load. I'll have a scope mounted so I can tell just what the rifle/load will do. I know that type shooting is nothing compared to the 1,000 yds ya'll shoot - to say I'm impressed with shooting that distance with old BP guns is an understatement!

Ken h>

[Tar Heel]

Save yourself a whole bunch of trouble and headache, just purchase any of the proven blackpower cartridge lubes. Bullshops NASA, Big Sky Components BSC, or SPG. All are well tested. You'll have enough other things to worry about other than whether or not your lube is working.

Good advice.

[Don McDowell]

I guess I've never quite got this mindset of making slopbucket loads for a bpcr. I never settled for that with a smokeless rifle, and I don't know anybody else that didn't strive to get the best loads they could possibly find for their modern centerfire rifle. So I am absolutely puzzled by folks that think it's ok to just dump a scoop full of some sort of black powder in a case, grease the bullet up with what ever is handy and go make the thing go bang..
It takes so very little effort to make quality blackpowder cartridge loads, and then if you're busting a bucket at 100 yds and can call your shots onto the label on the bucket or the x ring on a 1000 yd target, you're good to go...
Buying a quality commercial lube, that has been tested and proven is such an inexpensive thing to do, and takes the variable of a miserable mess for a lube causing leading in your gun, and all the other stuff that can happen. Think about it folks, a pound of commercial lube will cost around 20$, most good bpcr bullets will take 2 maybe 3 grs of lube, so you're looking at something close to 1000 + rounds loaded from that pound of lube.

[rfd]

there are lotsa proven bpcr bullet lubes, both commercial and otherwise, and the popular spg started out as a home brew. one of the best diy lubes is still "gatofeo lube" (aka "ugly cat lube", from its creator) that cast boolits member nobade turned me on to awhile back. it's 1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works), 1 part paraffin caning wax (gulf wax), 1/2 part pure beeswax (found lotsa places) ... all by weight and mixed double boiler style. as is, this is a soft lube and upping the weight of beeswax can harden it for warm/hot weather.

[Red River Rick]

Stay away from petroleum based products (vaseline & paraffin wax) when making your own lube. They add to the fouling.

Equal parts of clean beeswax, Criso (vegetable) shorting and peanut oil, works very well, all natural and will keep forever. Peanut oil has a very high flash point and the vegetable shortening will not go "rancid" like animal tallow.

RRR

[rfd]

unlike beef and other tallows, mutton/sheep tallow doesn't ever go rancid, even if left out in the open air and unrefrigerated. canning/candle paraffin wax may have some nebulous part of its alloy steeped in petroleum resins, but i and others haven't seen it contribute to bp fouling issues. ymmv.

[Don McDowell]

and the popular spg started out as a home brew
That's true, and the version out today is the final mixture of a lot of testing, back in the old days when the knowledge available about bpcr wasn't there like it is now, and then when that final mixture came out commercially 20 some years ago, there's been quite a large number of national championship won with it... so make things easy when starting out buy something with a proven track record, then start experimenting with variations on some of the old recipes.

[KenH]

Folks, I do appreciate all the sharing of knowledge on this site, and do understand the ease of buying a commercial lube.... BUT - from all reading, Emmet's lube seems about as good as it gets, and that's so easy to mix up at home with the stuff (beeswax, crisco, canola/olive oil) I've got on hand. I think I like the idea of adding lanolin to the mix. Ordering $10 of lube is easy, but that $10 is actually $20+ by the time it's shipped.

If all these rifles will do is go "bang" hitting a 5 gallon bucket I'm going to be VERY disappointed - I hope to get 2 (3?) inches MOA from the old guns. I really really hope for 1" MOA from the new 45-70 barrel that's ordered for a Rolling Block action. I do ALL my testing with bench rest and scope - That's the ONLY way I can really test a rifle or load. Well, the trapdoor doesn't have a scope, it has a holographic sight mounted on barrel for the long eye relief required. While I'd LOVE to shoot iron sights, my eyes just don't see well enough - things are a blur. Glasses to focus on sight, and target is a big blur. I've not managed to get both clear at same time.

Thank ya'll again for sharing - I'm sure learning a LOTS about BPCR. Never realized it was so involved. BUT - they keep telling us old folks to work crossword puzzles to keep the mind working.... me, I'd rather do something useful like learn new skills - BPCR, gunsmithing, knifemaking, computer programming.... just too many fun things to do rather than waste my time on crossword puzzles!

Ken H>

[rfd]

ken h -

bpcr, target and its ilk can be whatever you like depending on yer scope of interest, time and money. imho, some of the stuff surrounding all of this is pure cork sniffing, and some is pretty much gospel if the pursuit of consist accuracy is the primary goal. there are lots of good bullet lubes to choose - both commercial and home brew - and lots of really good shooters are using flavors of one or the other, or both. there is enuf of concern just starting out in this game that it's in the best interests of the newbie to begin with proven stuff .... like the choice of bullet lube, fer instance.

good luck ken, and do enjoy the journey!

[Keith Andersen]

I don't know where this thing started, don't use petroleum products with black powder. Most of my additives in my black powder lube is petroleum based. my mix that I have for a long time is a mix of 60% petroleum jelly B wax if I have, it if not I use paraffin and thin it with more pet, jelly. I don't get the tar posters talk about.
I don't buy the expensive lubes or anything else that I can make.

[KenH]

A couple of questions here on the 45-70 loads. I shot a few 65 gain Fg behind a 340 grain bullet and got a LOTS more fouling than I'd been getting with FFg. I say more, because when I pushed warm soapy water wetted patches down the bore, it took more push thru to get the patches to come out clean than with the Fg powder. Is this normal?

Also, would a 400 (or 450) grain bullet work better with Fg powder than the 340 grain? While I'm fully aware for 500+ yds shooting a longer bullet (500+ grains) is usually better, how about for 100 yds? Will there be much difference at 100 yds between 340 grain vs 400 grain vs 500 grain bullet?

Thanks again for all the help,

Ken H>

[country gent]

You didnt say what powder your using so..... Experiment with powder compression some, Swiss seems to like no airspace and lighter compression. Old ensford seems to be mid or medium compression levels. GOEX some are running up to .300 compression on. Finding the right level of compression for your cases, rifle, bullet combimation will show lowered levels of fouling. A good lube also helps control fouling. A blow tube or wiping rod may be needed also. Was it heavier fouling or fouling tha had dried out or hardened due to lube or control issues? Start with a powder charge to give 1/16" compression and work up in 1-2grn increments to the sweet spot. Compress with a die rather than the bullet as these soft slugs will deform when compressing powder charges. A simple way is to make a dummy bullet from brass steel aluminum or even close grained hard wood ( seal and finish with super glue). You want this dummy bullet to slide freely into a sized case mouth. So probably around .450-.455 dia. In use drop powder charge into case, seat a wad, set bullet into case mouth and compress with seater die. Hand seat bullet if possible onto wad.

[rfd]

for me, one of the beauties of black powder cartridges is using fire formed cases and thumb seated bullets. i do need a press for powder compression, and only for new brass that needs "fire forming" straight neck expansion.

[KenH]

Ooops - you're right, the type of powder is pretty important. It's GOEX powder that's all I've got, Fg, FFg, and FFFg for the pistol. This was with 65 grains Fg and compression was only perhaps 0.1" using a brass rod ID of brass as tool to compress with 1 milk carton wad between powder and bullet base. This was shot in the Trapdoor.

The fouling didn't seem hard at all using the 340 grain GG bullet with the Emmert's lube (50% beeswax, 40% crisco, 10% canola oil) so maybe it's working.

I think I covered all the questions.

Would anyone care to comment on the question about "Will there be much difference at 100 yds between 340 grain vs 400 grain vs 500 grain bullet?" Here I'm assuming the proper powder, wad, compression, etc so each bullet will function at best.

Ken H>

[Grapeshot]

I will tell you what I did when loading for my .45/70 Military Rifles. I took a WEIGHED 70 grain charge of Goex 2Fg and poured it down a 36 inch drop tube into a Winchester case. I then compressed the powder with a compression die deep enough to seat a Lyman 457125 500 grain RN boolit. I then taper crimped the case and was ready to shoot it. I also used a Winchester Magnum Large Rifle Primer to touch off the powder charge.

This worked well for me. YMMV.

[KenH]

I'll bet 70 grains of FFg with a 500 grain bullet packs a whump on both ends:)

Do you use a wad between powder and bullet base? What about grease cookie? What lube do you use?

Ken

[Lumpy grits]

I use run 3F Goex in both my .45-70 and .45-90.
Now I'm using Old "E" 2f and run the same speed with even less fouling.
LG

[Grapeshot]

I'll bet 70 grains of FFg with a 500 grain bullet packs a whump on both ends:)

Do you use a wad between powder and bullet base? What about grease cookie? What lube do you use?

Ken

I used the data and instructions found in Pat Wolf's book on the .45-70. No wad used, no Grease Cookie, the lube I used was my blend of Bees Wax, Vegetable Oil, and Candle Wax. I also used SPG but that was expensive. I did use a blow tube to help keep the fouling soft.

The recoil was tolerable considering the weight of the Rifle, an 1873 Trapdoor Springfield.

[Lumpy grits]

I'll bet 70 grains of FFg with a 500 grain bullet packs a whump on both ends:)

Do you use a wad between powder and bullet base? What about grease cookie? What lube do you use?

Ken

Not bad-Like a 12ga with a trap load.
LG

[KenH]

LG, Grapeshot - I'll bet both of ya'll have LOTS more experience with BP than I have. A question if you please, loading a 45-70 (as an example) with 70 grains pushing a 500 grain bullet - how much difference in recoil is felt with same rifle between Fg, FFg, and FFFg? My "thinking" would think the slower Fg would be slightly less recoil?

Ken

[Lumpy grits]

LG, Grapeshot - I'll bet both of ya'll have LOTS more experience with BP than I have. A question if you please, loading a 45-70 (as an example) with 70 grains pushing a 500 grain bullet - how much difference in recoil is felt with same rifle between Fg, FFg, and FFFg? My "thinking" would think the slower Fg would be slightly less recoil?

Ken

You are correct here-The difference is minor.
BUT, BP recoil is NOT the 'fast-slap' like you get with smokeless. It's a firm 'push'.
I went to 3F because the target said it was the 'rite' choice, and the reduced fouling and more uniform burn.
The problem is it will be hard for you to get 70gn by weight of real BP in any of today's .45-70 cases with grease grove bullets. You'll be doing good to get 65gn in.
With rifle loads and the amount of compression need'd dictates the use of a compression die-Do not attempt to do this with the bullet!
LG

[StrawHat]

...The problem is it will be hard for you to get 70gn by weight of real BP in any of today's .45-70 cases with grease grove bullets. You'll be doing good to get 65gn in ... LG...

See post #20, #22, #27.

Kevin

[rfd]

... The problem is it will be hard for you to get 70gn by weight of real BP in any of today's .45-70 cases with grease grove bullets. You'll be doing good to get 65gn in. ...


well, not really, sir. lots depends on many factors such as case volume, bullet shape/ogive/max oal, powder granularity, drop tube compaction, powder/wad compression, barrel chamber dimensions and probably other factors. i have no problem loading up to 67 grains (by weight) of swiss 1-1/2f with only .030 compression under 3 wads (.025, .002, .002) and a baco 459525m3 greaser. and that's with a lower volume starline case, and not to max oal before rifling contact. could do more with winchester brass. but the weight/amount of bp isn't what matters most, and my current best loads are at 65.2 grains of swiss 1-1/2f.

[Lumpy grits]

It depends more on the type of bullet your using like paper-patch or grease groove.
Plus-70gns of Goex has more volume than 70gns of 'Old E.
I have never load'd Swiss BP(can't afford it).
LG

[KenH]

Since FFg burns cleaner than Fg, does FFFg burn cleaner than FFg? Since FFFg is a finer grain, this is faster burning than the larger grains? Does this create higher chamber pressure than Fg? Higher FPS muzzle velocity?

As I said in post #33 I'm only using Geox powder and getting around 70 grains of Fg & FFg in a starline case and 75-76 grains of Fg - all in the same case, just pouring thru a funnel - no drop tube.

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge 'n experience.

Ken H>

[Lumpy grits]

Yes-3F Goex will burn 'cleaner'.
It also gave me much better groups in both my '70 and '90.
LG

[KenH]

Thanks Lumpy - I've got almost 2 lb of 3F so I'll be trying that over the next few days. Cleaner and better groups - just how much better can it be :)

Ken H>

[Lumpy grits]

LOL-We ARE talk'n about REAL black powder--[smilie=l:
Fill the case till you see .375'-.400' powder compression with the wad(I use LDPE .060)to seat a grease groove bullet. You want to run about .002" neck tension. IF your using Starline brass. You may do well to learn about case mouth annealing.
Just close the case mouth so you can chamber the round and enjoy the smoke.
LG

[rfd]

or maybe no neck tension at all with a fire formed case. no annealing needed, either.

[KenH]

Oh yes, the "real" stuff - well, as real as Goex can make it.[smilie=w: Lord de mercy - what icons will they come up with next?

I've been anealing brass cases since back in '70's sometime when I first got started with reloading while in college. Boy, were those broke (money wise) days!

Ken H.

[Klaus]

Oh yes, the "real" stuff - well, as real as Goex can make it.[smilie=w: Lord de mercy - what icons will they come up with next?

I've been anealing brass cases since back in '70's sometime when I first got started with reloading while in college. Boy, were those broke (money wise) days!

Ken H.


Hi Ken, a lot of lessons more learned from the guys here.

it`s very intersing to follow your thread to find the right load e.g looks like similar to most beginners here.

for me i was settled on 67 grs of Schuetzen FFG , Milkcarton Wad ,.350 compression , Lyman Postel Bullet one GG exposed. S&B large Rifle Primer
I do not resize brass after firing
bur i give a little neck tension with my lyman necksizer die to avoid that the bullets stuck in the barrel ( i i need to dicharge a round) or the bullet will fall out if i turn the case upside down.
See no differencen in accuracy with or without neck tension this way.

Klaus from Germany

[Lead pot]

Folks, I do appreciate all the sharing of knowledge on this site, and do understand the ease of buying a commercial lube.... BUT - from all reading, Emmet's lube seems about as good as it gets, and that's so easy to mix up at home with the stuff (beeswax, crisco, canola/olive oil) I've got on hand. I think I like the idea of adding lanolin to the mix. Ordering $10 of lube is easy, but that $10 is actually $20+ by the time it's shipped.

If all these rifles will do is go "bang" hitting a 5 gallon bucket I'm going to be VERY disappointed - I hope to get 2 (3?) inches MOA from the old guns. I really really hope for 1" MOA from the new 45-70 barrel that's ordered for a Rolling Block action. I do ALL my testing with bench rest and scope - That's the ONLY way I can really test a rifle or load. Well, the trapdoor doesn't have a scope, it has a holographic sight mounted on barrel for the long eye relief required. While I'd LOVE to shoot iron sights, my eyes just don't see well enough - things are a blur. Glasses to focus on sight, and target is a big blur. I've not managed to get both clear at same time.

Thank ya'll again for sharing - I'm sure learning a LOTS about BPCR. Never realized it was so involved. BUT - they keep telling us old folks to work crossword puzzles to keep the mind working.... me, I'd rather do something useful like learn new skills - BPCR, gunsmithing, knifemaking, computer programming.... just too many fun things to do rather than waste my time on crossword puzzles!

Ken H>

Ken, a little friendly tip.
It's almost impossible to see a clear target when concentrating on the front sight. In my younger years my vision was better then 20/20 sharp enough that I could see a .45 caliber hole in the white at 100 yards. Now I cant see it at 25 yards shooting my 1911.
Here is a friendly tip, get a set of Knobloch frames and see your Optometrist and tell him what you want to accomplish. Seeing the front sight clear and still the down range target good enough that you can hold on it. My eye Doc told me to bring my rifle in and I will work on what you need.
He ground my shooting eye lens that I can see the front sight post clear and also a fairly clear image at 100 yards or so and good enough at 1000 yards to be able to hold on the fuzzy black bull. The off eye he put a lens in that will give me a clear target at infinity so I can read the number boards.
With these frames you will look through the center of the lens where you get the sharpest vision with out distortion and It does not cost any more then a regular pair of glasses and they work just as well as a good quality rifle scope.

http://www.frontierarms.com.au/products/accessories/Knobloch-K1-glasses-1-800.jpg